So, I am in the market for a starting vehicle. A compact coupe, maybe. I have at least two brands in mind, Toyota or Honda. Does anyone have anything to add to this or questions?
Thanks!
What's your budget? Can you drive a manual/would you be interested in learning?
Quote from: Takumi on August 03, 2017, 01:18:03 PM
What's your budget? Can you drive a manual/would you be interested in learning?
1,500-2,500. I wouldn't mind learning how drive one. But, I feel as if an automatic transmission would suite me best for now.
Quote from: TheArkansasRoadgeek on August 03, 2017, 02:31:21 PM
Quote from: Takumi on August 03, 2017, 01:18:03 PM
What's your budget? Can you drive a manual/would you be interested in learning?
1,500-2,500. I wouldn't mind learning how drive one. But, I feel as if an automatic transmission would suite me best for now.
I didn't learn stick at first, but it's not really that much more difficult. Once you've consciously thought about the process, as you would with all other driving at first, then it's second nature.
Keep in mind that most sub-$2000 vehicles might need at least $1000-2000 of work to make them safe, comfortable, or dependable for long-distance travel. At that price level, there's loads of old family sedans and economy cars out there.
I'd avoid European cars, Mitsubishis, sports cars, or anything not starting at that price level, unless you have a lot of repair skills, patience, and money. Beware of the owner who just thinks "it needs a battery" or "just needs a transmission flush" and it will run. If you have to bring a trailer, it's probably not for you. If so, they should have that battery to prove it, and transmission flush = needs $1500 overhaul or $4000 remanufactured unit.
As long as it runs 90% of the time, you'll still have fond memories of your first vehicle, no matter what it is.
Might want to look into a used Chevy Cobalt or Pontiac G5. Usually cars in the price range you are looking at have a ton of maintenance needs regardless of the make. With the GM stuff the parts tend to run a lot cheaper and usually there is a slightly larger supply of after market/Non-OEM stuff out there. I'd say learning to drive a stick nowadays is way more optional than necessary given almost every new car is some sort of automatic. When some exotic automakers don't even offer a traditional manual you can damn well bet that it outdated technology.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 03, 2017, 03:11:10 PMWhen some exotic automakers don't even offer a traditional manual you can damn well bet that it outdated technology.
At least in the Americas, the econoboxes are likely to be the last holdouts for those looking to save $500 on a new car, or get some modicum of performance from the aging 20-year-old-designs of 4/5-speed slushboxes typically foisted into those cars.
BMW, Mini, and Audi still offer it on selected models, but you're right...most exotic brands don't even offer it anymore.
Quote from: formulanone on August 03, 2017, 03:20:07 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 03, 2017, 03:11:10 PMWhen some exotic automakers don't even offer a traditional manual you can damn well bet that it outdated technology.
At least in the Americas, the econoboxes are likely to be the last holdouts for those looking to save $500 on a new car, or get some modicum of performance from the aging 20-year-old-designs of 4/5-speed slushboxes typically foisted into those cars.
BMW, Mini, and Audi still offer it on selected models, but you're right...most exotic brands don't even offer it anymore.
Porsche, too, although only on the 911 and 718. And the Turbo trims*, including the $300k, ultra-limited 911 GT2 RS, are DCT-only. That said, they brought the manual back for the GT3 this time.
OP: Maybe check out a 2001-2005 Honda Civic, or if you can find one in your budget, an Acura RSX.
*All 911s now use turbocharged engines except the GT3, but the Turbo and Turbo S still the full-on 500+ HP monsters that they were before.
What brands should I consider? Are the two I have currently as reliable as they say they are? Should I extend my budget for repairs and by how much would a reasonable amount?
Quote from: TheArkansasRoadgeek on August 03, 2017, 07:56:15 PM
What brands should I consider? Are the two I have currently as reliable as they say they are? Should I extend my budget for repairs and by how much would a reasonable amount?
Really at the price point you're at expect repairs to be needed. Almost nobody follows the vehicle maintenance schedule and will put off on necessary repairs until something breaks. I would have a mechanic do a multipoint inspection on any car you are buying so you have idea what you're getting into. Post 1990s reliability is pretty much flat or close to flat for almost all the automakers.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 03, 2017, 08:19:07 PM
Post 1990s reliability is pretty much flat or close to flat for almost all the automakers.
Pretty much this, though I stand that getting into a $2000 Audi might be a four-ringed headache.
Your maintenance will probably depend on how much driving you need to do at first:
1) Are school, work, and play just a few miles away from home? If so, a small oil leak can be taken care of. Working A/C or non-functioning windows won't matter as much. You can get away with used tires if you're just plowing around town at 45 miles an hour.
2) Do you plan on doing a lot more driving? Exploring, county collecting, long road trips? Going away to school and planning on visiting the folks? Other major travel? In that case, you'll probably want something running in decent mechanical shape. You don't want a faulty alternator chewing wasting $50-100 batteries left and right. Get that timing belt job taken care of, if there's no record of it.
3) Unplanned maintenance. Due to electrical and computerized complexity, there's still the unexpected when you're talking about a vehicle over 10 year old or over 100,000 miles, increasing the risk of a breakdown/no-start as time and mileage goes on.
4) Figure in insurance, tags, registration. It might not be that much if you're in a rural area, and usually it's even less for a car valued lower than the average vehicle.
In short, it might be nice to have an extra $500 after the purchase, just in case. You're getting something with 20,000 parts in an as-is condition.
If you're looking for the small economical stuff at $2k: I'd probably look at a Honda Fit if you can find it, but they seem to hold their value. Also, the Toyota Yaris, Scion xB/xA, Ford Focus, Nissan Versa. Maybe a VW Rabbit/Golf, but Volkwagen parts are either cheap or stupid-expensive, and they're generally on the less-reliable scale as they age. Kia Rio, Hyundai Accent, Chevy Aveo...these don't really hold their value as well, so you might find one at a rock-bottom price.
If you want a slightly-larger car that you'd find in that range, there's: Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Ford Focus, Nissan Sentra, not sure if a Chevy Cruze or Kia Forte will slip that low in price, as they're only about 6-7 years old. This group can really hold their value in the second and third-hand market, so you might be looking at 12-15 year-old cars.
Before you laugh at the idea of a 20-year-old Civic or Corolla, they were built to last...cheap to maintain, but avoid one that's trying to be a bad impersonation of a spaceship or race car.
A bit bigger: Chevy Malibu, Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Ford Taurus, Nissan Altima, but these are going to be high-mileage and well-worn examples at $2500. Who knows, you might find something in pretty good shape.
Quote from: TheArkansasRoadgeek on August 03, 2017, 07:56:15 PM
What brands should I consider? Are the two I have currently as reliable as they say they are? Should I extend my budget for repairs and by how much would a reasonable amount?
Pretty much as Max and formulanone say, have some money set aside for repairs. If you were to look at an 01-05 Civic, for example, ask about when the timing belt was last done. Most modern engines are interference engines, which means if the timing belt/chain breaks, it'll damage the engine. The 01-05 Civic uses a belt, which can snap when worn, while the RSX uses a more durable chain (but you still have to replace the tensioners on the chain from time to time). My knowledge of Toyotas and other brands is much more limited. A Mazda Protege or early Mazda 3 might be in your budget as well, and since you're in Arkansas, the rust they tend to have shouldn't be as much an issue as it would be further north.
As great as the manual gearbox is, it can be a pain in the ass trying to find one. Especially if it's fitted to a car that was often specced with the automatic gearbox. Several years ago, I was bent on trying to find a 5-door Rabbit (Golf 5) with a 5-speed. Every time I found one, it sold immediately and almost always for more than it was listed. If I was trying to find an automatic, I could have had one by the end of the day.
My point? Once you get a taste for the manual gearbox, it's all you'll ever want to drive. And you'll end up spending the rest of your life angry at the world for not producing manuals "like they used to" (therefore making them rarer and more expensive).
If you want to learn manual, do it. You'll be superior to everyone else for having learned, and you'll probably end up a better driver. But it's not all positive.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 03, 2017, 09:51:01 PM
As great as the manual gearbox is, it can be a pain in the ass trying to find one. Especially if it's fitted to a car that was often specced with the automatic gearbox. Several years ago, I was bent on trying to find a 5-door Rabbit (Golf 5) with a 5-speed. Every time I found one, it sold immediately and almost always for more than it was listed. If I was trying to find an automatic, I could have had one by the end of the day.
My point? Once you get a taste for the manual gearbox, it's all you'll ever want to drive. And you'll end up spending the rest of your life angry at the world for not producing manuals "like they used to" (therefore making them rarer and more expensive).
If you want to learn manual, do it. You'll be superior to everyone else for having learned, and you'll probably end up a better driver. But it's not all positive.
Pretty much this. I jumped on buying my 2009 TSX last month, even though I wasn't going to wait until later in the year to buy a car, but manual 2nd generation TSXs are
impossible to find at all, let alone for a good price, and this one was at my local CarMax for much less than I expected. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have lasted much longer had I waited. I don't regret it.
Don't underestimate the cost of the insurance when you figure out your budget. Your profile says you're a 17-year-old male, so I assume you're unmarried. That means you'll have about the highest premiums of any age group. Sporty cars will come with higher premiums, of course, so consider that. Make sure you take advantage of things like the "good student discount" if your carrier offers it (basically, actuarial data indicate kids who get good grades are less of a risk). Whether you pay the premium every month or in a lump sum every six months or 12 months will vary by carrier.
I second Takumi's advice about ensuring the timing belt was changed if you consider a car that has one. It's an expensive repair that normally involves replacing the timing belt and water pump at the same time (on my 2004 Acura TL, it's about a $1500 expense every 105,000 miles or seven years regardless of mileage), but putting it off is a false economy because if the belt snaps, it will cost a heck of a lot more than changing the belt would have cost.
If you do go for a manual shift, bear in mind that if you buy a low-priced used car with high mileage on the odometer, there's a fair chance it may need a clutch replacement at some point. The price of that varies substantially by model and will also depend on whether the flywheel needs replacement. Unfortunately, there's no standard mileage a clutch should last because durability can be very dependent on the driver and whether he abuses the clutch. One good, though imperfect, way to judge clutch wear is to feel for the "bite point." If you feel it right at the top of the clutch pedal throw, it's often (but not always) a sign of a worn clutch that may need replacement soon. But then again, every clutch is different too and will usually have a different bite point, and some can be rather indistinct (my TL's is a bit hard to get used to at first). If you feel the clutch slip, don't buy the car because you'll need to replace it sooner rather than later.
Note that some of these expenses are routine maintenance that you don't have to do that often (the timing belt and the clutch are things that go for several years before they become an expense), but there are other expenses that come up more often (oil changes, brake pads, and such). The other expenses are not a "big deal," but at age 17 the expense can be a problem. Do some online searching to try to find out what repairs typically cost on the types of cars you're considering to assess whether the ongoing expenses will be an issue.
Also take note of what grade of gas the car requires. I'm used to buying premium fuel because three of our four cars specify it, but at age 17 the added 50¢ a gallon (figure an extra $7.00 or so per tank) could add up. When I was 18 I had a car that ran better on premium despite specifying regular, but at that time it was around 20¢ a gallon more such that I was paying around $1.19 a gallon instead of 99¢. The price differential has increased a lot over the years. If the car specifies premium, that's what you should use. Even if the car can run on regular, it will often retard the performance with reduced horsepower in order to avoid knocking.
I'm coming to this thread late, quite possibly after the OP has already committed to a car purchase, but I wanted to share a few additions to the very good advice given upthread.
* If you are shopping in the under-$2000 category, realistically you are better off catching up on needed repairs and deferred maintenance yourself to the extent practical, instead of hiring it done.
* Avoid buying from a flipper if possible. One of the first questions to ask is about the total ownership history from factory delivery.
* Consider a temporary (15-day) subscription to Carfax or one of its competitors, but realize that not all maintenance/repair activity will be reported to them, and the reports are typically not specific as to work done.
* Dismiss out of hand any car offered for sale with a flashing CEL. For cars with solid CELs, consider "trust but verify": bring along a code reader to check that the seller is reporting DTCs correctly and honestly. Be aware that some types of DTCs can be cleared for just long enough to allow the car to be sold without a CEL.
* Take the time to establish a maintenance baseline after you buy the car, even if routine maintenance is documented. Even the most conscientious car owners omit some maintenance: for example, I have never done a proper brake inspection on a car that now has 75,000 miles. There is no good data on which maintenance tasks are most likely to be omitted, but as a general rule of thumb you can count on the likelihood of omission to increase the more difficult the job is, and also when it is not actually specified in the manufacturer's service schedule (as is the case with transmission fluid replacement for many models).
* "There are many fish in the sea": be unapologetically picky. If you feel rushed to make a decision about a car when there are things about it that make you feel uncomfortable, that is your cue to stop the sale in its tracks and walk away.
* Don't hesitate to check out a seller by looking up his or her name at the courthouse. This may yield possibly useful information about the ownership history that the seller won't share to a stranger because it is personally painful. Once I test-drove a then 21-year-old Lexus I decided not to buy, but checked out the seller at the courthouse anyway. It turned out he had bought it the previous year (this he had told me) because he and his soon-to-be ex-wife had had to declare bankruptcy, forcing him to sell a much newer vehicle he had bought brand-new, apparently to eliminate car payments as an ongoing liability (this he did not tell me). Their bankruptcy file at the federal courthouse turned up an order that, among other things, permitted him to buy the Lexus for day-to-day transportation for his job and to maintain shared custody of his kids.
* Establish a shortlist of specific model/generation combinations (e.g. first-generation Saturn S-Series, ninth-generation Toyota Corolla) that you are willing to buy, and go to make/model forums to establish what the design/service weaknesses of these models are. Even well-designed and reliable cars will have particular weaknesses, so the goal is not to find a perfect specimen so much as it is to learn how to recognize the ones that can be nursed back to health without more expense or trouble than you are willing to accept.
* Expect Craigslist sellers to be extremely flaky. I have had at least one Craigslist contact where I came to suspect the other party had stolen the car and was selling it to buy drugs.
* In cases where a Craigslist seller seems sane and businesslike, expect him or her to be carrying a firearm to the first meeting to test-drive the car and discuss the sale. Protect yourself by keeping your hands in plain view when approaching the seller in person, and never lead him or her to think that you are bringing money to the first meeting. Ask for a viewing of the title and registration if you decide to buy, but always plan for the actual purchase to occur at a subsequent meeting.
* Expect small-time auto dealers to be masquerading as private sellers on Craigslist. (Craigslist does not allow this within its TOS, AIUI, but this is hard to enforce.) Do not hesitate to check courthouse and business registration records for small-time dealers; often there is a consent decree with the DA's office in the background.
* Be cautious when buying a model with a known tendency to burn oil. (Examples include all three generations of the Saturn S-Series, and the fifth- and sixth-generation Toyota Camry with the 2AZ-FE four-cylinder engine.) For many models, oil burning gets progressively worse and is aggravated when the oil gets overhot, typically as a result of letting the level drop so low that the same level of waste heat has to be handled by a small and dwindling volume of oil. The problem is easy enough to handle through a regular schedule of oil topoffs in an urban commuting context, but for long-distance highway travel it is a hassle since it entails carrying oil and hoping bottles don't leak.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 20, 2017, 02:32:03 PM
* "There are many fish in the sea": be unapologetically picky. If you feel rushed to make a decision about a car when there are things about it that make you feel uncomfortable, that is your cue to stop the sale in its tracks and walk away.
This is an extremely good piece of advice, for 99.9% of car shoppers.
However...
...sometimes, beggars can't be choosers. I would love to own a Toyota Previa with a manual transmission, but I simply can't
find one. If one does come along, I will have to accept the fact that, unless it's rocking 450k miles, I will probably have to buy it, regardless of its shape.
Here's some more of my own advice (most likely irrelevant at this point): for your first car, don't go for something an enthusiast would buy. You'll probably end up with someone's project car.
At this price point, don't worry too much about make or model - aside from avoiding anything exotic that will be expense to repair. Buy the best current car available from a mileage and condition standpoint.
I'd guess that will end up meaning an American sedan (think 2001 Buick Regal) or an older compact pickup. I tend to prefer older low mileage to newer high mileage, myself.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 21, 2017, 02:43:10 AM...sometimes, beggars can't be choosers. I would love to own a Toyota Previa with a manual transmission, but I simply can't find one. If one does come along, I will have to accept the fact that, unless it's rocking 450k miles, I will probably have to buy it, regardless of its shape.
When you are shopping for something that, realistically, is going to be a project car, it takes a lot of self-discipline to walk away from rare but undesirable specimens. I love the MX83 Toyota Cressida (the last Mark II/Cressida generation to be sold in the US), and rarely ever see one advertised for sale from 1989-1990, before triple-oval branding (which I like just fine but only on newer Toyotas).
A couple of years ago I test-drove a 1990 specimen I found at an apparent Craigslist private seller that turned out to be a small-time dealer. It had leather but I could tell even through the awful cloth covers on the front seats that it was badly cracked. For some reason the air filter box was held in place with paper towels stuffed between it and the headlight. I slightly thrashed the engine on a four-mile test drive on city streets only, because the gearshift cabling was out of adjustment, so the gearshift landed in 3 range instead of the intended D. I walked away without further investigation because I couldn't convince myself it was worth the trouble even to ask the salesman what had been done about the 7M-GE head bolt torque issue.
Quote from: corco on October 21, 2017, 01:38:34 PMI'd guess that will end up meaning an American sedan (think 2001 Buick Regal) or an older compact pickup. I tend to prefer older low mileage to newer high mileage, myself.
On the SaturnFans forum where I have gone for advice on fixing up my S-Series, many of the experts consider the S-Series to be better value as a daily driver than the Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla, not just because Saturn is now a dead marque and thus is less attractive to customers in general, but also because everyone thinks the "Corollavic" is über-reliable, thus driving up demand and price for even dilapidated specimens.
I personally wouldn't trade my S-Series for a Corolla or Civic with largely unknown service history, but I still feel very hesitant about buying high-mileage GM, largely because of design issues such as no transmission drain plug in many models, Ecotec engines with water pump driven by the timing chain, etc.
I'd say when buying unpopular American in lieu of popular Japanese to save money, low mileage is more important for American cars than for Japanese ones. For the Saturn S-Series it is definitely the case that the most annoying issues--oil burning, automatic transmission slam-shifting, etc.--are the result of interactions between underlying design issues and sloppy maintenance that take mileage to play out.
Fuck cars. Get a real man's motive of transportation.
A goat.
Quote from: ColossalBlocks on October 21, 2017, 11:39:02 PM
Fuck cars. Get a real man's motive of transportation.
A goat.
No! No low-key references in this thread! Not for you sir! Get your ass outta here! :angry:
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 20, 2017, 02:32:03 PM
* Dismiss out of hand any car offered for sale with a flashing CEL. For cars with solid CELs, consider "trust but verify": bring along a code reader to check that the seller is reporting DTCs correctly and honestly. Be aware that some types of DTCs can be cleared for just long enough to allow the car to be sold without a CEL.
This: Never trust the seller to tell you what's "probably" wrong with the car.
"It probably just needs a new battery / alternator / some spark plugs..." Assume these are lies from the start; since the failure is probably the main reason they're selling it (can't afford repairs anymore, or just want to be rid of the vehicle because nobody else wants it). If it doesn't start or the engine doesn't seem to run "normally", don't buy it.
Quote* "There are many fish in the sea": be unapologetically picky. If you feel rushed to make a decision about a car when there are things about it that make you feel uncomfortable, that is your cue to stop the sale in its tracks and walk away.
This is also quite true...But I'd also be aware that many of the vehicles in the $2000-3000 range are going to be somewhat problematic. Finding a car in near-perfect condition in that range is next to impossible.
At that point, if it starts, stops, drives straight, doesn't leak, exterior lights work, there's no dashboard warning lights on, and doesn't smell like a 1920's factory when the engine is running when the hood is raised, that's about all you can ask for.
Quote* Expect Craigslist sellers to be extremely flaky.
When selling something online doesn't cost anything, there's going to be a lowest-common denominator. That's not to say I haven't seen some shaky shirt-and-tie cretins within the franchised car dealership world.
Bring a friend or two, but don't imply they're there for "muscle"...after all, someone has to drive you there. Meet in public places during daylight hours (the closest to mid-day, the better) with at least a few onlookers.
The best description for your first car (applies to any make & model):
1. Paid off. That way all you need is liability insurance, saving you money each month.
2. Comfortable & clean on the inside, clean straight body on the outside.
3. Engine does not knock or vibrate while running (both idling & under load).
4. Transmission does not hesitate going from park to drive, park to reverse, or reverse to drive & vice versa.
5. Make sure the vehicle is a non-smoker.
6. If you are able to, see how easy it will be for you to perform your own maintenance (oil changes, tune ups, alternator/starter replacements, etc.). The more you can do yourself, the more money you can save over the life of the vehicle.
Quote from: cjk374 on October 22, 2017, 12:49:42 PM
The best description for your first car (applies to any make & model):
1. Paid off. That way all you need is liability insurance, saving you money each month.
2. Comfortable & clean on the inside, clean straight body on the outside.
3. Engine does not knock or vibrate while running (both idling & under load).
4. Transmission does not hesitate going from park to drive, park to reverse, or reverse to drive & vice versa.
5. Make sure the vehicle is a non-smoker.
6. If you are able to, see how easy it will be for you to perform your own maintenance (oil changes, tune ups, alternator/starter replacements, etc.). The more you can do yourself, the more money you can save over the life of the vehicle.
Love the list! I am not BIG on cars, but not to say I don't know what the engine is... I am sure my dad will be able to get me up to snuff!
Quote from: cjk374 on October 22, 2017, 12:49:42 PM
4. Transmission does not hesitate going from park to drive, park to reverse, or reverse to drive & vice versa.
In my experience, Ford's, particularly recent models, have transmissions that tend to shudder when changing gears (P>D, D>R, etc). Consumer Reports owner surveys have shown that some Ford Models (Fiesta and Focus) have terrible autoboxes. Keep that in mind if you're looking newer (not that it matters as I'm sure you've already bought).
Quote from: cjk374 on October 22, 2017, 12:49:42 PM
5. Make sure the vehicle is a non-smoker.
Unless you also smoke. In which case, you can get a good deal.
Quote from: cjk374 on October 22, 2017, 12:49:42 PM
5. Make sure the vehicle is a non-smoker.
In more ways than one, inside and engine-wise.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 22, 2017, 02:41:44 PM
In my experience, Ford's, particularly recent models, have transmissions that tend to shudder when changing gears (P>D, D>R, etc). Consumer Reports owner surveys have shown that some Ford Models (Fiesta and Focus) have terrible autoboxes. Keep that in mind if you're looking newer (not that it matters as I'm sure you've already bought).
There have been quite a few transmission complaints about the Focus and Fiesta from model years 2013-2016. Some of them legitimate - there was a recall about it a couple years ago. This year there was a class action suit about it. I know two people with 2013 Focuses, both have had to take them in to get an issue with the transmission fixed at least once.
On the other hand, mixed in with this are also a lot of complaints about nothing more than the transmission having hard shifts - which is not actually a problem, it's simply the car working as it is supposed to but against the expectation of the user.
See, while these cars have been marketed as having automatic transmissions, they do not have the slushboxes that most American drivers are used to and probably take the behavior of for granted since they have no experience with anything else. What these cars actually have is a computer-controlled dual-clutch transmission - which, naturally, produces shifts you can feel because it doesn't slip like a hydraulic automatic does. The tradeoff is better fuel economy, both due to the lack of slippage and due to the fact that a dual-clutch weighs less.
Quote from: Duke87 on October 22, 2017, 04:54:52 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 22, 2017, 02:41:44 PM
In my experience, Ford's, particularly recent models, have transmissions that tend to shudder when changing gears (P>D, D>R, etc). Consumer Reports owner surveys have shown that some Ford Models (Fiesta and Focus) have terrible autoboxes. Keep that in mind if you're looking newer (not that it matters as I'm sure you've already bought).
There have been quite a few transmission complaints about the Focus and Fiesta from model years 2013-2016. Some of them legitimate - there was a recall about it a couple years ago. This year there was a class action suit about it. I know two people with 2013 Focuses, both have had to take them in to get an issue with the transmission fixed at least once.
On the other hand, mixed in with this are also a lot of complaints about nothing more than the transmission having hard shifts - which is not actually a problem, it's simply the car working as it is supposed to but against the expectation of the user.
See, while these cars have been marketed as having automatic transmissions, they do not have the slushboxes that most American drivers are used to and probably take the behavior of for granted since they have no experience with anything else. What these cars actually have is a computer-controlled dual-clutch transmission - which, naturally, produces shifts you can feel because it doesn't slip like a hydraulic automatic does. The tradeoff is better fuel economy, both due to the lack of slippage and due to the fact that a dual-clutch weighs less.
I hate to say it, but even from Ford's early days, it has built its vehicles cheap.
Quote from: Duke87 on October 22, 2017, 04:54:52 PM
while these cars have been marketed as having automatic transmissions, they do not have the slushboxes that most American drivers are used to and probably take the behavior of for granted since they have no experience with anything else. What these cars actually have is a computer-controlled dual-clutch transmission - which, naturally, produces shifts you can feel because it doesn't slip like a hydraulic automatic does. The tradeoff is better fuel economy, both due to the lack of slippage and due to the fact that a dual-clutch weighs less.
I do not get the appeal of dual-clutch gearboxes. They shift the way a new driver would in a manual. I get that they can be faster, and use less fuel. But they're just not comfortable. If I want to feel my gear changes, I'll get a manual (and I do, so I did).
Toyota, Lexus, and a few other automakers (amongst them being Audi/Porsche) use Aisin 8 speed gearboxes, which (to me) feel
far better than any dual-clutch or ZF-designed 8 or 9 speed (minus those used in high-power cars).
Quote from: jakeroot on October 22, 2017, 02:41:44 PM
In my experience, Ford's, particularly recent models, have transmissions that tend to shudder when changing gears (P>D, D>R, etc). Consumer Reports owner surveys have shown that some Ford Models (Fiesta and Focus) have terrible autoboxes. Keep that in mind if you're looking newer (not that it matters as I'm sure you've already bought).
Not to be nit picky, but the transmission shudder isn't when changing directional gears or in and out of park, it's upshifts and downshifts (1>2, 2>3, 3>2, ...). My wife has a '13 Fiesta and I'm well-aware of the headaches the PowerShift transmission has. When it works, it's a wonderful transmission - very crisp, quick shifts, almost unnoticeable. The Achilles heel is the clutch pack design, as my wife's car has been through at least three of them (all on Ford's dime :thumbsup: ). Not to jinx it, but I think they've finally found one that works, which is too bad, since the next redesign of the Fiesta & Focus will have a "traditional" slushbox.
Quote from: Duke87 on October 22, 2017, 04:54:52 PM
On the other hand, mixed in with this are also a lot of complaints about nothing more than the transmission having hard shifts - which is not actually a problem, it's simply the car working as it is supposed to but against the expectation of the user.
^This. I almost feel sorry for some of the sales & service people for this situation.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 22, 2017, 08:55:31 PM
I do not get the appeal of dual-clutch gearboxes. They shift the way a new driver would in a manual. I get that they can be faster, and use less fuel. But they're just not comfortable. If I want to feel my gear changes, I'll get a manual (and I do, so I did).
I think you answered your own question there.
Quote from: TheArkansasRoadgeek on October 22, 2017, 05:45:15 PM
I hate to say it, but even from Ford's early days, it has built its vehicles cheap.
It's all a matter of perspective, experience, and how your relatives/celebrity idol spokespeople brainwash you. Many people I know would say the same about Chevy or Toyota. A friend of mine has a 2017 Chevy Cruze as a loaner while her regular car is in the body shop. When she let me look at it, I thought the hood release was going to break off in my hand when I tried to open the hood. As for the prop rod, well, I've seen fishing poles that seemed sturdier.
Consumer acceptance is definitely a factor in slow take-up of dual-clutch automatic transmissions in the US. (http://www.autonews.com/article/20151207/OEM06/312079988/once-promising-dual-clutch-transmissions-lose-favor-in-u.s.) I'm also skeptical that they offer much of a fuel efficiency advantage over traditional designs that have lockup in low as well as high gears, a strategy tried in the Saturn S-Series and the Honda Fit.
In any case, I think it is still too soon to see novel technologies like CVTs and dual-clutch in the sub-$2000 band. There the issue tends to be transmissions that have never had the fluid changed and are therefore slam-shifting, engaging gear late, etc. because the factory fluid is badly sheared down. Some of them will respond quite well to two or three drains and fills with an appropriately chosen new fluid to bring the contents of the sump up to the out-of-bottle viscosity of the OEM fluid. But sheardown accelerates wear on hard parts, and a share of these transmissions will already be past the point of no return.
In 2006 most automakers changed from higher-viscosity to lower-viscosity ATFs. The official line is that, with a few conspicuous exceptions (notably the Saturn S-Series), the thinner fluids are backward-compatible with the thicker ones, and there are some universal formulations (e.g. Valvoline MaxLife full synthetic ATF and a now-obsolete formulation of Amsoil ATF) that claim compatibility with both higher- and lower-viscosity specifications. Friction modifier additives have also been used extensively since the 1990's and these tend to obscure the effects of viscosity on shift quality. Nevertheless, for a car being kept indefinitely, I increasingly think it makes sense to match the out-of-bottle viscosity of the factory fluid using a shear-stable full-synthetic ATF.
Quote from: DaBigE on October 23, 2017, 12:17:57 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 22, 2017, 02:41:44 PM
In my experience, Ford's, particularly recent models, have transmissions that tend to shudder when changing gears (P>D, D>R, etc). Consumer Reports owner surveys have shown that some Ford Models (Fiesta and Focus) have terrible autoboxes. Keep that in mind if you're looking newer (not that it matters as I'm sure you've already bought).
Not to be nit picky, but the transmission shudder isn't when changing directional gears or in and out of park, it's upshifts and downshifts (1>2, 2>3, 3>2, ...). My wife has a '13 Fiesta and I'm well-aware of the headaches the PowerShift transmission has. When it works, it's a wonderful transmission - very crisp, quick shifts, almost unnoticeable. The Achilles heel is the clutch pack design, as my wife's car has been through at least three of them (all on Ford's dime :thumbsup: ). Not to jinx it, but I think they've finally found one that works, which is too bad, since the next redesign of the Fiesta & Focus will have a "traditional" slushbox.
Yes, you would be correct. Although, on cold starts, where a Toyota or Nissan (with a more traditional slushbox or CVT) will go into D and pull away without a fuss, Ford's seem to struggle noticeably more, both shifting into D (a bit of shuddering), and then pulling away and changing gears. Very few cars seem to struggle under this scenario quite like the PowerShift gearbox does (except Chrysler's 200 with the ZF 9-speed, which may very well be my least favorite car+transmission of all time).
By the way, welcome back.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 23, 2017, 12:35:51 AM
In any case, I think it is still too soon to see novel technologies like CVTs and dual-clutch in the sub-$2000 band.
DCTs, yes, but a few early-mid 2000s cars with CVTs can be found in that range from time to time. A friend of mine has a mid-00s Mazda 6 with one that he got for cheap because it has an electrical issue.
To the original poster, try out a few vehicles from friends and family members and see what you like and dislike about them. You'll narrow down your choices a little, and your decision won't seem so difficult.
Damn! I am going to be a well vested buyer with all these great tips and suggestions! :bigass:
In connection with this topic, I'd make a couple of reading suggestions.
First, George Akerlof's famous 1970 paper on "The market for lemons" (http://www.econ.yale.edu/~dirkb/teach/pdf/akerlof/themarketforlemons.pdf) describes the used-car buying experience as a specific example of the general problem of dealing with information asymmetry. Some of the advice given upthread is aimed at reducing the imbalance in information between buyer and seller by, e.g., developing other information and expertise that can be used to cross-check the seller's claims. Other advice addresses the spike in shoe-leather costs (in this case, looking at many used cars and finding each to be not quite good enough) that can result from tackling the problem frontally by refusing to buy under imperfect information. Ultimately, finding a good used car to buy involves balancing these two considerations.
Second, the National Academies Press has a book (https://www.nap.edu/catalog/21744/cost-effectiveness-and-deployment-of-fuel-economy-technologies-for-light-duty-vehicles) (free PDF download available) dealing with the various technologies automakers are deploying in an attempt to meet more stringent fuel efficiency targets. There is a chapter on transmissions that deals with DCTs and CVTs in more detail, as well as another on engines that addresses GDI, turbos, Atkinson cycle, etc. The general theme for both engines and transmissions is that most of the new technologies lead to significant driveability and NVH issues. This empirical observation also applies to previous episodes of regulatory tightening in terms of emissions and CAFE, such as the late 1970's. In a sense there are advantages to buying from a period with stagnant CAFE standards since all of the potential driveability issues associated with old-school technologies like normally aspirated engines and hydraulic automatic transmissions were solved long ago, although automakers' particular implementations are occasionally deficient.
Could this thread be earmarked or something? It has such good information and experience, I'd like to have this thread (after resolution) as an archive piece for those with similar questions or concerns for those that are shopping or buying. Maybe a move to Transit for more relevance?
Toyota Corolla
Honda Civic
Quote from: kphoger on October 23, 2017, 04:35:34 PM
Toyota Corolla
Honda Civic
My dad is for Toyota and Honda, he says, "Look for this brand due to reliability,". But, since we have established upthread that all manufacturers are about even, I ask is it worth it?
Quote from: TheArkansasRoadgeek on October 23, 2017, 04:45:11 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 23, 2017, 04:35:34 PM
Toyota Corolla
Honda Civic
My dad is for Toyota and Honda, he says, "Look for this brand due to reliability,". But, since we have established upthread that all manufacturers are about even, I ask is it worth it?
I don't agree that all manufacturers are about even, but I do agree that the gap has narrowed a lot in the last 20 years. For reliability, I recommend doing your research on sites like www.edmunds.com and www.carcomplaints.com. The former will give you both anecdotal and professional reviews of the models you're interested, and the latter will alert you to known issues with those models. For example, the car I drive goes off the chart with transmission problems, but they're almost all due to a known issue of coolant leaking into the transmission and killing both radiator and tranny. This is a problem that can be averted by installing an aftermarket transmission cooler and bypassing the offending loop. (Incidentally, the car I totaled last year had had one of those installed by a previous owner.) Before buying a car, do a lot of research and find out how reliable it is, and whether or not you're willing to overlook what other people might get huffy about.
WW2 t28 tank
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 23, 2017, 05:04:48 PM
WW2 t28 tank
Please, contribute legitimate information to the topic, unless otherwise stated upthread.
This thread
WILL NOT be derailed due to childish statements.
Thank you!
Quote from: TheArkansasRoadgeek on October 23, 2017, 05:11:18 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on October 23, 2017, 05:04:48 PM
WW2 t28 tank
Please, contribute legitimate information to the topic, unless otherwise stated upthread.
This thread WILL NOT be derailed due to childish statements.
Thank you!
Seems like you don't appreciate my humor...
A Boeing 747. Great for those drives to parties.
On a serious note, get an economy car, like a Focus, or Fusion.
Quote from: kphoger on October 23, 2017, 04:35:34 PMToyota Corolla
Honda Civic
Every time I look on Craigslist for Corollavics for sale in the Wichita area, I see hail-damaged specimens selling for silly money.
Quote from: kphoger on October 23, 2017, 04:56:17 PMQuote from: TheArkansasRoadgeek on October 23, 2017, 04:45:11 PMMy dad is for Toyota and Honda, he says, "Look for this brand due to reliability,". But, since we have established upthread that all manufacturers are about even, I ask is it worth it?
I don't agree that all manufacturers are about even, but I do agree that the gap has narrowed a lot in the last 20 years. For reliability, I recommend doing your research on sites like www.edmunds.com and www.carcomplaints.com. The former will give you both anecdotal and professional reviews of the models you're interested, and the latter will alert you to known issues with those models. For example, the car I drive goes off the chart with transmission problems, but they're almost all due to a known issue of coolant leaking into the transmission and killing both radiator and tranny. This is a problem that can be averted by installing an aftermarket transmission cooler and bypassing the offending loop. (Incidentally, the car I totaled last year had had one of those installed by a previous owner.) Before buying a car, do a lot of research and find out how reliable it is, and whether or not you're willing to overlook what other people might get huffy about.
These days,
Consumer Reports (described as "good bathroom reading" on marque forums) advises car shoppers to assess reliability by model rather than marque. Toyota, for example, has a reputation for reliability, but even it has produced some turkeys, such as the recently redesigned Tacoma pickup. I would go even further: to get a full picture of reliability you need to drill down to make, model, generation, and engine/transmission combination, and consider issues that are not classified as reliability faults. For example, a fifth-generation Toyota Camry with the 1MZ-FE V6 engine is usually a safe bet as long as the timing belt was replaced when that job fell due and the replacement included a new water pump and new front oil seals, but for a same-generation Camry with the 2AZ-FE engine it is desirable to establish how much oil it burns. Oil consumption itself is not generally considered a fault for purposes of assessing reliability.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 24, 2017, 11:23:52 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 23, 2017, 04:56:17 PMQuote from: TheArkansasRoadgeek on October 23, 2017, 04:45:11 PMMy dad is for Toyota and Honda, he says, "Look for this brand due to reliability,". But, since we have established upthread that all manufacturers are about even, I ask is it worth it?
I don't agree that all manufacturers are about even, but I do agree that the gap has narrowed a lot in the last 20 years. For reliability, I recommend doing your research on sites like www.edmunds.com and www.carcomplaints.com. The former will give you both anecdotal and professional reviews of the models you're interested, and the latter will alert you to known issues with those models. For example, the car I drive goes off the chart with transmission problems, but they're almost all due to a known issue of coolant leaking into the transmission and killing both radiator and tranny. This is a problem that can be averted by installing an aftermarket transmission cooler and bypassing the offending loop. (Incidentally, the car I totaled last year had had one of those installed by a previous owner.) Before buying a car, do a lot of research and find out how reliable it is, and whether or not you're willing to overlook what other people might get huffy about.
These days, Consumer Reports (described as "good bathroom reading" on marque forums) advises car shoppers to assess reliability by model rather than marque. Toyota, for example, has a reputation for reliability, but even it has produced some turkeys, such as the recently redesigned Tacoma pickup. I would go even further: to get a full picture of reliability you need to drill down to make, model, generation, and engine/transmission combination, and consider issues that are not classified as reliability faults. For example, a fifth-generation Toyota Camry with the 1MZ-FE V6 engine is usually a safe bet as long as the timing belt was replaced when that job fell due and the replacement included a new water pump and new front oil seals, but for a same-generation Camry with the 2AZ-FE engine it is desirable to establish how much oil it burns. Oil consumption itself is not generally considered a fault for purposes of assessing reliability.
Sorry I hadn't made that clear. Yes, please do assess reliability as narrowly as possible. The issue with my car that I mentioned, for example, is specific for the 2005—2012 generation; the offending component began to be sourced from a different manufacturer partway through that date range, greatly reducing the risk of malfunction from model year 2008 and on or so; and, lastly, the failure tended to happen at around 90k to 110k miles, meaning a car with 160k miles might actually be a better bet than one with 80k miles. This is the kind of knowledge that takes a lot of reading to find out ahead of time.
Another example of the model-versus-marque comment you made is the Honda Passport. A 20-year old Honda might sound like a good value in a used car, but in fact the Passport was a re-branded Isuzu Rodeo and suffered from many more mechanical issues than other Honda models of the same timeframe.
One piece of advice I've also gone by (which may or may not be good advice) is to avoid buying a car that is the first model year of its generation. The thinking is that they'll find out some of the issues in the first release year and then fix them for the next year. So, for example, my current car's generation was launched in 2005, so I would avoid buying a 2005.
Quote from: kphoger on October 24, 2017, 01:55:40 PM
One piece of advice I've also gone by (which may or may not be good advice) is to avoid buying a car that is the first model year of its generation. The thinking is that they'll find out some of the issues in the first release year and then fix them for the next year. So, for example, my current car's generation was launched in 2005, so I would avoid buying a 2005.
This advice is something that
Consumer Reports often repeats to readers as well. The first model year always has some bugs, so it might be wise to stay away from it. Last year's rankings placed Buick near the top of their reliability ratings, which they attributed to an aging lineup without much in the way of bugs.
My 2015 Golf was
technically the first model year for the Golf mk7 in the US, however, it had been produced since 2012 in Europe (though at a different manufacturing facility).
Volvo 240. Best car ever made.
Quote from: Throckmorton on October 27, 2017, 08:40:32 PM
Volvo 240. Best car ever made.
One problem, they might be the most hideous looking cars ever made:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg/1280px-1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg)
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 27, 2017, 11:01:11 PM
Quote from: Throckmorton on October 27, 2017, 08:40:32 PM
Volvo 240. Best car ever made.
One problem, they might be the most hideous looking cars ever made:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg/1280px-1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg)
The Mitsuoka Orochi says hi.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcar-moby.jp%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F11%2F5a300273efcfdb154c813c420cbb8075.jpg&hash=3c04d7574607fdaf4bf845e458d2f537740be3bf)
Quote from: Takumi on October 27, 2017, 11:31:43 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 27, 2017, 11:01:11 PM
Quote from: Throckmorton on October 27, 2017, 08:40:32 PM
Volvo 240. Best car ever made.
One problem, they might be the most hideous looking cars ever made:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg/1280px-1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg)
The Mitsuoka Orochi says hi.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcar-moby.jp%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F11%2F5a300273efcfdb154c813c420cbb8075.jpg&hash=3c04d7574607fdaf4bf845e458d2f537740be3bf)
Has a literal barracuda thing going on there with the front facisa.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 27, 2017, 11:37:01 PM
Quote from: Takumi on October 27, 2017, 11:31:43 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 27, 2017, 11:01:11 PM
Quote from: Throckmorton on October 27, 2017, 08:40:32 PM
Volvo 240. Best car ever made.
One problem, they might be the most hideous looking cars ever made:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg/1280px-1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg)
The Mitsuoka Orochi says hi.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcar-moby.jp%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F11%2F5a300273efcfdb154c813c420cbb8075.jpg&hash=3c04d7574607fdaf4bf845e458d2f537740be3bf)
Has a literal barracuda thing going on there with the front facisa.
(https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/pontiac/aztek/2001/oem/2001_pontiac_aztek_4dr-suv_gt_fq_oem_2_500.jpg)
Quote from: jakeroot on October 27, 2017, 11:55:12 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 27, 2017, 11:37:01 PM
Quote from: Takumi on October 27, 2017, 11:31:43 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 27, 2017, 11:01:11 PM
Quote from: Throckmorton on October 27, 2017, 08:40:32 PM
Volvo 240. Best car ever made.
One problem, they might be the most hideous looking cars ever made:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg/1280px-1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg)
The Mitsuoka Orochi says hi.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcar-moby.jp%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F11%2F5a300273efcfdb154c813c420cbb8075.jpg&hash=3c04d7574607fdaf4bf845e458d2f537740be3bf)
Has a literal barracuda thing going on there with the front facisa.
(https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/pontiac/aztek/2001/oem/2001_pontiac_aztek_4dr-suv_gt_fq_oem_2_500.jpg)
Funny thing about the Aztec, I seem to recall people actually really like the Redevous which was on the same platform. Interesting how a lack of garish styling can really help sell a car.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 28, 2017, 12:02:53 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 27, 2017, 11:55:12 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 27, 2017, 11:37:01 PM
Quote from: Takumi on October 27, 2017, 11:31:43 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 27, 2017, 11:01:11 PM
Quote from: Throckmorton on October 27, 2017, 08:40:32 PM
Volvo 240. Best car ever made.
One problem, they might be the most hideous looking cars ever made:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg/1280px-1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg
The Mitsuoka Orochi says hi.
http://car-moby.jp/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/5a300273efcfdb154c813c420cbb8075.jpg
Has a literal barracuda thing going on there with the front facisa.
https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/pontiac/aztek/2001/oem/2001_pontiac_aztek_4dr-suv_gt_fq_oem_2_500.jpg
Funny thing about the Aztec, I seem to recall people actually really like the Redevous which was on the same platform. Interesting how a lack of garish styling can really help sell a car.
I think the Rendezvous looked better, because it was less outlandish, but IMO it still had awkward rear proportions.
However, I think the Aztec is now more valuable than the Rendezvous, thanks to a certain show...
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 27, 2017, 11:01:11 PM
Quote from: Throckmorton on October 27, 2017, 08:40:32 PM
Volvo 240. Best car ever made.
One problem, they might be the most hideous looking cars ever made:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg/1280px-1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg)
Heh. You're prompting me to remember the City of Falls Church's Volvo police cars from the 1980s. I believe they got a special deal via Don Beyer Volvo, which is located within the city. cpzilliacus probably remembers these too.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171028/f10e08585e153ec8a3edbeb08bbc2f48.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171028/6b95f73602ac0765e5b879a385340e9b.jpg)
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 27, 2017, 11:01:11 PM
Quote from: Throckmorton on October 27, 2017, 08:40:32 PM
Volvo 240. Best car ever made.
One problem, they might be the most hideous looking cars ever made:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg/1280px-1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg)
I like the 240s. I had an 1986 maroon 240 My ex-wife had a 1983 240D.. diesel. That car took forever to pick up speed.
Very roomy car. A tank. The most memorable thing was the alert for key left in ignition. It was like a nuclear plant meltdown warning.
For a long time Volvo 240s seemed to be on every tv show
Z981
Ford: Panther platforms before 1997 or after 2002 to avoid the plastic intake manifold are superior vehicles in terms of durability. Used as cop cars, then pressed into taxi service, they'll hit for 500K miles plus. Find a grandma-grade Crown Vic, Grand Marquis or Town Car and away you go! Stay away from police/taxi vehicles.
GM: Buick LeSabre/Park Avenue, Olds 88/98. Pontiac Bonneville with 3.8 V-6. Avoid the supercharged models. If the ride is too wallowy, the struts will need replacing. That's a $600 job in my area. Check the tranny fluid as they are light duty units.
Good old fashioned Detroit Iron sedans offer the best bang for the buck when going el cheapo. Despite the larger size, you can get 28 MPG highway out of a 4.6 and 30 out of a 3.8, so they're very close to the older compacts. You would need a hybrid to do substantially better and that is way out of your price range.
Rick
Quote from: nexus73 on October 28, 2017, 09:44:47 PM
Ford: Panther platforms before 1997 or after 2002 to avoid the plastic intake manifold are superior vehicles in terms of durability. Used as cop cars, then pressed into taxi service, they'll hit for 500K miles plus. Find a grandma-grade Crown Vic, Grand Marquis or Town Car and away you go! Stay away from police/taxi vehicles.
The B Body Caprices and Impalas seem to be hanging around almost just as long. The Impalas command decent money given that they are a hot mid-90s full size car but the Caprice can be had on the cheap. The 4.3 V6, 5.0 LO3, and 5.7 L05 all have really good parts availability given how many vehicles they were in. If you're really lucky you might be able to find a Caprice Wagon.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 28, 2017, 10:08:46 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on October 28, 2017, 09:44:47 PM
Ford: Panther platforms before 1997 or after 2002 to avoid the plastic intake manifold are superior vehicles in terms of durability. Used as cop cars, then pressed into taxi service, they'll hit for 500K miles plus. Find a grandma-grade Crown Vic, Grand Marquis or Town Car and away you go! Stay away from police/taxi vehicles.
The B Body Caprices and Impalas seem to be hanging around almost just as long. The Impalas command decent money given that they are a hot mid-90s full size car but the Caprice can be had on the cheap. The 4.3 V6, 5.0 LO3, and 5.7 L05 all have really good parts availability given how many vehicles they were in. If you're really lucky you might be able to find a Caprice Wagon.
The last year of production for these was 1996. That makes the newest ones 22 years old. Pickings will be slim. Models include the Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser station wagon, Buick Roadmaster sedan and wagon, Cadillac Fleetwood and the already mentioned Chevys. The LT1 engine is available and fairly common but the ignition coils are one per cylinder and rather pricey to replace, so one trades a high maintenance expense for a 265 HP engine. The LO5 is one I had in my 1991 Cadillac Brougham. It never did better than 24 MPG but at least it took 10% ethanol gasoline without complaint.
Rick
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 27, 2017, 11:01:11 PMOne problem, they might be the most hideous looking cars ever made:
May the ghost of Jan Wilsgaard haunt your dreams.
Quote from: nexus73 on October 29, 2017, 10:15:57 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 28, 2017, 10:08:46 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on October 28, 2017, 09:44:47 PM
Ford: Panther platforms before 1997 or after 2002 to avoid the plastic intake manifold are superior vehicles in terms of durability. Used as cop cars, then pressed into taxi service, they'll hit for 500K miles plus. Find a grandma-grade Crown Vic, Grand Marquis or Town Car and away you go! Stay away from police/taxi vehicles.
The B Body Caprices and Impalas seem to be hanging around almost just as long. The Impalas command decent money given that they are a hot mid-90s full size car but the Caprice can be had on the cheap. The 4.3 V6, 5.0 LO3, and 5.7 L05 all have really good parts availability given how many vehicles they were in. If you're really lucky you might be able to find a Caprice Wagon.
The last year of production for these was 1996. That makes the newest ones 22 years old. Pickings will be slim. Models include the Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser station wagon, Buick Roadmaster sedan and wagon, Cadillac Fleetwood and the already mentioned Chevys. The LT1 engine is available and fairly common but the ignition coils are one per cylinder and rather pricey to replace, so one trades a high maintenance expense for a 265 HP engine. The LO5 is one I had in my 1991 Cadillac Brougham. It never did better than 24 MPG but at least it took 10% ethanol gasoline without complaint.
Rick
I see the Roadmaster wagon far more often than I do the sedan. I think that's the only post-1990 American-market car where that's the case.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 27, 2017, 11:01:11 PM
Quote from: Throckmorton on October 27, 2017, 08:40:32 PM
Volvo 240. Best car ever made.
One problem, they might be the most hideous looking cars ever made:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg/1280px-1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg)
I don't think they're hideous. They're functional. Enough room inside, excellent visibility without a backup camera. They're very safe, and run forever with reasonable maintenance. If they were making new ones, they'd be on my short list, but Volvo has been infected with gadgetitis and declining reliability.
Quote from: kkt on October 29, 2017, 09:31:42 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 27, 2017, 11:01:11 PM
Quote from: Throckmorton on October 27, 2017, 08:40:32 PM
Volvo 240. Best car ever made.
One problem, they might be the most hideous looking cars ever made:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg/1280px-1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg)
I don't think they're hideous. They're functional. Enough room inside, excellent visibility without a backup camera. They're very safe, and run forever with reasonable maintenance. If they were making new ones, they'd be on my short list, but Volvo has been infected with gadgetitis and declining reliability.
I'll give you reliable and functional, but no way on it being remotely a looker. The irony about what you said is true, the newer cars are getting more mainstream...but that might not be such a good thing if the reliability/safety standards drop back to the rest of the pack. At least some of the new Volvos are pretty decent looking, they certainly weathered through time and corporate spin-off way better than Saab ever did.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 29, 2017, 09:56:01 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 29, 2017, 09:31:42 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 27, 2017, 11:01:11 PM
Quote from: Throckmorton on October 27, 2017, 08:40:32 PM
Volvo 240. Best car ever made.
One problem, they might be the most hideous looking cars ever made:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg/1280px-1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg
I don't think they're hideous. They're functional. Enough room inside, excellent visibility without a backup camera. They're very safe, and run forever with reasonable maintenance. If they were making new ones, they'd be on my short list, but Volvo has been infected with gadgetitis and declining reliability.
I'll give you reliable and functional, but no way on it being remotely a looker. The irony about what you said is true, the newer cars are getting more mainstream...but that might not be such a good thing if the reliability/safety standards drop back to the rest of the pack. At least some of the new Volvos are pretty decent looking, they certainly weathered through time and corporate spin-off way better than Saab ever did.
I don't think overall reliability is dropping back, its just become more focused on two areas: transmissions, and electronics. Which is a far cry from car's of yore, where damn near everything was, in some way or another, susceptible to breaking. Wipers not working. Windows not rolling up. Belts coming loose. Exploding engines. Parts of the car literally falling off. Parking brake not holding. <-- These are all things that aren't really problems anymore, unless you seriously mistreat your car.
As far as safety, cars are far safer than ever before. That's not debatable. (in response to your "safety standards" comment)
Quote from: jakeroot on October 29, 2017, 10:32:20 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 29, 2017, 09:56:01 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 29, 2017, 09:31:42 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 27, 2017, 11:01:11 PM
Quote from: Throckmorton on October 27, 2017, 08:40:32 PM
Volvo 240. Best car ever made.
One problem, they might be the most hideous looking cars ever made:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg/1280px-1988-1991_Volvo_240_GL_station_wagon_%282011-06-15%29_02.jpg
I don't think they're hideous. They're functional. Enough room inside, excellent visibility without a backup camera. They're very safe, and run forever with reasonable maintenance. If they were making new ones, they'd be on my short list, but Volvo has been infected with gadgetitis and declining reliability.
I'll give you reliable and functional, but no way on it being remotely a looker. The irony about what you said is true, the newer cars are getting more mainstream...but that might not be such a good thing if the reliability/safety standards drop back to the rest of the pack. At least some of the new Volvos are pretty decent looking, they certainly weathered through time and corporate spin-off way better than Saab ever did.
I don't think overall reliability is dropping back, its just become more focused on two areas: transmissions, and electronics. Which is a far cry from car's of yore, where damn near everything was, in some way or another, susceptible to breaking. Wipers not working. Windows not rolling up. Belts coming loose. Exploding engines. Parts of the car literally falling off. Parking brake not holding. <-- These are all things that aren't really problems anymore, unless you seriously mistreat your car.
As far as safety, cars are far safer than ever before. That's not debatable. (in response to your "safety standards" comment)
That's the thing, that whole "safety" bit along with being practical was what the bread and butter for Volvo for the longest time. Nowadays the difference between the worst car in a segment versus the top one can be extremely nominal. Really there aren't anything really truly wretched cars out there...no more Yugos of the automotive world if you will. So in Volvo's case they had to evolve into something different because they weren't going to get by on something niche forever. So perhaps I should rephrase, it isn't so much that Volvo has fallen back but rather everyone else caught up to them.
On the flip side Japanese cars used to have a huge leg up on build quality pretty much compared to everyone else. The Domestic and European brands certainly caught up to those standards in the last decades.
Quote
On the flip side Japanese cars used to have a huge leg up on build quality pretty much compared to everyone else. The Domestic and European brands certainly caught up to those standards in the last decades.
To an extent. Fewer of the Japanese cars are actually made in Japan compared to their heyday. Most of the volume-selling models are made in North America, and as such aren't generally
quite as well-built as the few that are still made in Japan, which are mostly niche vehicles anyway, with the exceptions of a few Mazdas and Subarus.
Quote from: Takumi on October 30, 2017, 12:21:17 AM
Quote
On the flip side Japanese cars used to have a huge leg up on build quality pretty much compared to everyone else. The Domestic and European brands certainly caught up to those standards in the last decades.
To an extent. Fewer of the Japanese cars are actually made in Japan compared to their heyday. Most of the volume-selling models are made in North America, and as such aren't generally quite as well-built as the few that are still made in Japan, which are mostly niche vehicles anyway, with the exceptions of a few Mazdas and Subarus.
I would like to further that by saying that Toyota and (maybe Nissan?) moved their Headquarters to the US in recent years.
Quote from: TheArkansasRoadgeek on October 30, 2017, 12:29:31 AM
Quote from: Takumi on October 30, 2017, 12:21:17 AM
Quote
On the flip side Japanese cars used to have a huge leg up on build quality pretty much compared to everyone else. The Domestic and European brands certainly caught up to those standards in the last decades.
To an extent. Fewer of the Japanese cars are actually made in Japan compared to their heyday. Most of the volume-selling models are made in North America, and as such aren't generally quite as well-built as the few that are still made in Japan, which are mostly niche vehicles anyway, with the exceptions of a few Mazdas and Subarus.
I would like to further that by saying that Toyota and (maybe Nissan?) moved their Headquarters to the US in recent years.
All the Japanese Automakers still have their primary headquarters in their home country.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 30, 2017, 12:33:55 AM
Quote from: TheArkansasRoadgeek on October 30, 2017, 12:29:31 AM
Quote from: Takumi on October 30, 2017, 12:21:17 AM
Quote
On the flip side Japanese cars used to have a huge leg up on build quality pretty much compared to everyone else. The Domestic and European brands certainly caught up to those standards in the last decades.
To an extent. Fewer of the Japanese cars are actually made in Japan compared to their heyday. Most of the volume-selling models are made in North America, and as such aren't generally quite as well-built as the few that are still made in Japan, which are mostly niche vehicles anyway, with the exceptions of a few Mazdas and Subarus.
I would like to further that by saying that Toyota and (maybe Nissan?) moved their Headquarters to the US in recent years.
All the Japanese Automakers still have their primary headquarters in their home country.
In that case, let us refer to exibit A. For Amazon, of course! :)
Someone up thread was bashing Ford, and I have to say that in some areas, like fit and finish, their criticisms are pretty valid.
That said, I have had all kinds of Fords and one Mercury over the years and I have never been left stranded on the side of the road by any of them. I have 2 s-197 Mustangs in my driveway right now, and they both have been bulletproof so far.
Obviously, these would be too much car for young ArkansasRoadgeek at his price point, both in the cost of obtaining one and in upkeep.
If I were in his shoes now, I would be looking for something dependable that had some sembleance of power but without the crushing insurance a sporty type of car would bring. I'd be looking to get my hands on an early to mid 2000's Crown Vic (either civilian or CVPI) or even a Mercury Grand Marquis. They come with a 235-250 hp V8 and all the essentials that all of us take for granted in more expensive vehicles (power everything). They are large enough to carry mutiple friends and have a decent trunk and the gas mileage, though alot less than the Toyota's and Honda's that everyone seems to love, is really not that bad. I got 16-18 around town, 24-26 highway mpg in the 2001 Grand Marquis I had before my wifes Mustang.
I know they are not a particulary sexy car (my wife always refers to the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis as a grandpamobile) but they are hard to beat when it comes to the full package of what you get with one of them.
Being that you're in the south and trucks are coveted like sports cars were to us back in the day another choice may be a mid to late 1990's F150/Ram/Silverado-with truck prices staying up the way they are I don't see you being able to touch a fullsize from any year starting with a 2 in your price range. The downside would be the gas mileage would be horrible.
In the end, everything that that posters before me said about making sure what ever you get runs well, seems to have been well maintained is spot on. Really, just get what makes you happy,and that you can afford to keep running.
Back in the day, Volvo had an ad campaign focused on how long they lasted... a 100,000 miles digit on the odometer, etc. Such a campaign would no longer hold up.
Speaking of old police cars & such....larger municipalities will hold sealed-bid auctions to get rid of older vehicles. You could get a great car with cold air & regular maintenance having been performed throughout most of its life for literally just hundreds of dollars if you have the highest bid.
Quote from: nexus73 on October 28, 2017, 09:44:47 PM
Ford: Panther platforms before 1997 or after 2002 to avoid the plastic intake manifold are superior vehicles in terms of durability. Used as cop cars, then pressed into taxi service, they'll hit for 500K miles plus. Find a grandma-grade Crown Vic, Grand Marquis or Town Car and away you go! Stay away from police/taxi vehicles.
The plastic intake manifold issue with the '92-'97 models (I had to replace such on my old '97 Crown Vic. over a decade ago) not the 1998-2001 models. In all likelihood, most of the '92-'97 models that are still on the road have probably since had the manifolds replaced; especially ones with higher mileage.
Quote from: slorydn1 on October 30, 2017, 01:18:07 AMI have 2 s-197 Mustangs in my driveway right now, and they both have been bulletproof so far.
I have a 2007 Mustang convertible that I've owned since new & can concur. However, the only issue with purchasing a Mustang (or Camaro, Challenger etc.) as a first/starting vehicle could be the insurance rates; even with the mild V6 versions, such can still be coveted for parts.
Back to the OP's topic at hand. Aside from the fore-mentioned Mustang; all my other vehicles (purchased new & used) have been full-size Ford (dating back to the '69 vintage) or GM cars (dating back to the '74 vintage). For the most part, they've all been reliable vehicles with the only issues being related to how these vehicles (used) were treated prior to my ownership.
Quote from: Takumi on October 30, 2017, 12:21:17 AMTo an extent. Fewer of the Japanese cars are actually made in Japan compared to their heyday. Most of the volume-selling models are made in North America, and as such aren't generally quite as well-built as the few that are still made in Japan, which are mostly niche vehicles anyway, with the exceptions of a few Mazdas and Subarus.
My general impression, not having any experience with Japanese marques other than Toyota, Honda, and Nissan, is that it is mainly Toyota that upholds the Japanese reputation for quality. Many of the differences between the Japanese and the US automakers that are associated with quality on the Japanese side--such as just-in-time inventory management, continuous improvement, no penalty for stopping the line for quality issues, etc.--are components of what is called the Toyota Production System (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System). Toyota has also historically maintained a lower defect rate with
fewer quality control personnel than Nissan, its principal competitor.
In terms of Japanese vehicles in the family fleet, we have had a 1981 Toyota Tercel, a 1986 Nissan Maxima, a 1990 Toyota Cressida, a 1995 Nissan Maxima, a 2005 Toyota Camry, and a 2009 Honda Fit. Our experience has been that while they have all been reliable in comparison to American cars of similar vintage, the Toyotas have been more reliable than any Japanese near-contemporaries in the family fleet. The 1981 Tercel had a persistent problem with the carburetor: a part that cost $300 to replace would routinely fail and rob 5 mpg. The 1990 Cressida never required any repairs due to unscheduled component failure, since it was destroyed in an accident before it was old enough to see the 7M-GE head-bolt issue. The 2005 Camry has never experienced unscheduled component failure with the lone exception of a burned-out taillight bulb. In comparison, the 1986 Maxima ate multiple alternators, had body rust issues (still an issue with Nissans that has prompted recalls in the past ten years), and went through at least one cold idle solenoid. The 1995 Maxima had no unscheduled component failures but was also destroyed in an accident at relatively low mileage. The 2009 Honda Fit is still relatively young in terms of age and mileage but has fabric fraying on the driver's seat side bolster, has eaten one blower fan and one blower resistor (a common problem with second-generation Fits that is ultimately a design/supply chain issue), and has had two taillight bulb failures.
As far as I know, none of the vehicles that has been in the family since the 1960's has had to have either the engine or the transmission opened for major repairs. However, my paternal grandmother had a 1984 Mercury Grand Marquis with a troublesome transmission that ultimately required overhaul. One set of family friends had a mid-1980's Ford LTD that required a transmission rebuild, while another had a Ford Ranger compact pickup of similar vintage whose transmission exploded when a family member tried to take off without releasing the parking brake.
In terms of buying a first car with unknown and essentially non-verifiable history, however, the flip side of these experiences is that if you are seeking to manage the risk of powertrain problems by buying young and overmaintaining, your chances of finding an affordable vehicle are much better with the American marques than with the Japanese ones, since the "sensible" Japanese choices for first car (Corollavic, basically) sell for silly money.
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 30, 2017, 10:17:08 AM
Quote from: nexus73 on October 28, 2017, 09:44:47 PM
Ford: Panther platforms before 1997 or after 2002 to avoid the plastic intake manifold are superior vehicles in terms of durability. Used as cop cars, then pressed into taxi service, they'll hit for 500K miles plus. Find a grandma-grade Crown Vic, Grand Marquis or Town Car and away you go! Stay away from police/taxi vehicles.
The plastic intake manifold issue with the '92-'97 models (I had to replace such on my old '97 Crown Vic. over a decade ago) not the 1998-2001 models. In all likelihood, most of the '92-'97 models that are still on the road have probably since had the manifolds replaced; especially ones with higher mileage.
Quote from: slorydn1 on October 30, 2017, 01:18:07 AMI have 2 s-197 Mustangs in my driveway right now, and they both have been bulletproof so far.
I have a 2007 Mustang convertible that I've owned since new & can concur. However, the only issue with purchasing a Mustang (or Camaro, Challenger etc.) as a first/starting vehicle could be the insurance rates; even with the mild V6 versions, such can still be coveted for parts.
Back to the OP's topic at hand. Aside from the fore-mentioned Mustang; all my other vehicles (purchased new & used) have been full-size Ford (dating back to the '69 vintage) or GM cars (dating back to the '74 vintage). For the most part, they've all been reliable vehicles with the only issues being related to how these vehicles (used) were treated prior to my ownership.
Not quite right Philbos regarding the plastic intake manifolds. Here's the real deal info:
1996-2001 Ford Crown Victoria
2. 1996-2001 Mercury Grand Marquis
3. 1996-2001 Lincoln Town Car
4. 1997 (build date after 6/24/97) Mercury Cougar
5. 1997 (build date after 6/24/97) Ford Thunderbird
6. 1997 (build date after 6/24/97) Ford Mustang
7. Some 1998-2001 Ford Mustangs
8. Some 2002 Ford Explorers
http://stormeyes.org/wp/2006/02/defective-ford-intake-manifolds-get-your-money-now/
Hope that settles the issue.
Rick
Quote from: nexus73 on October 30, 2017, 02:44:11 PM
Fair enough, but your original post insinuated that the '96 Panther-platformed vehicles did
not have the manifold issue whereas the data you later posted did.
I may still have my original letter at home; I could've sworn such listed models earlier than '96. Unfortunately (for me), my manifold failed
after the listed period.
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 30, 2017, 03:20:30 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on October 30, 2017, 02:44:11 PM
Fair enough, but your original post insinuated that the '96 Panther-platformed vehicles did not have the manifold issue whereas the data you later posted did.
I may still have my original letter at home; I could've sworn such listed models earlier than '96. Unfortunately (for me), my manifold failed after the listed period.
I was off by a year, so sue me...LOL!
Rick
Quote from: nexus73 on October 30, 2017, 05:59:15 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 30, 2017, 03:20:30 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on October 30, 2017, 02:44:11 PM
Fair enough, but your original post insinuated that the '96 Panther-platformed vehicles did not have the manifold issue whereas the data you later posted did.
I may still have my original letter at home; I could've sworn such listed models earlier than '96. Unfortunately (for me), my manifold failed after the listed period.
I was off by a year, so sue me...LOL!
Rick
Uh guys...15-20 year-old vehicles could have
any number of problems. Don't get so fixated on one issue.
Has the original poster driven anything yet? Shown any interest in picking out something?
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2017, 01:31:12 AM
I have a '16 Ford Fusion. Highly recommend.
Odd car for 18. How'd you end up in that?
My bucket list includes a '14 Fusion with a 6-speed manual, but they're rarer than hen's teeth.
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2017, 01:57:28 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 31, 2017, 01:41:22 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2017, 01:31:12 AM
I have a '16 Ford Fusion. Highly recommend.
Odd car for 18. How'd you end up in that?
Odd that you think it's odd. It does have red stitching on the seats, and a spoiler :-D
This involves a few personal details, but the car is actually my dad's, not mine. I work at the family business, but I hate his schedule and he hates mine :D So he bought the car and I pay for gas and everything else. Also, I'm just not into cars that much. I could care less, as long as it's American made (we're a Ford family), doesn't resemble a Prius, and gets me from A to B, then I'm good with it. I know that probably sounds weird to say at 18, but it's the honest truth.
It's still a family sedan. Usually kids go for small hatchbacks, something fast, or a cheap old beater. Not a brand new sedan with zero sporting credentials (unless it had the manual, in which case, sign me up!).
That said, none of that matters in light of your second paragraph.
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2017, 01:57:28 AM
This involves a few personal details, but the car is actually my dad's, not mine. I work at the family business, but I hate his schedule and he hates mine :D So he bought the car and I pay for gas and everything else. Also, I'm just not into cars that much. I could care less, as long as it's American made (we're a Ford family), doesn't resemble a Prius, and gets me from A to B, then I'm good with it. I know that probably sounds weird to say at 18, but it's the honest truth.
North American made? For the majority of it's life, the Fusion has been built in Mexico.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 31, 2017, 02:14:45 AM
It's still a family sedan. Usually kids go for small hatchbacks, something fast, or a cheap old beater. Not a brand new sedan with zero sporting credentials (unless it had the manual, in which case, sign me up!).
My first car was a 1st-gen Focus sedan...nothing sporty about it, other than one of the rare ones with 4-wheel disc brakes and heated front seats (cloth). It did have a factory spoiler, but it hardly made the car any more sporty, imo.
Quote from: DaBigE on October 31, 2017, 10:10:46 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2017, 01:57:28 AM
This involves a few personal details, but the car is actually my dad's, not mine. I work at the family business, but I hate his schedule and he hates mine :D So he bought the car and I pay for gas and everything else. Also, I'm just not into cars that much. I could care less, as long as it's American made (we're a Ford family), doesn't resemble a Prius, and gets me from A to B, then I'm good with it. I know that probably sounds weird to say at 18, but it's the honest truth.
North American made? For the majority of it's life, the Fusion has been built in Mexico.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 31, 2017, 02:14:45 AM
It's still a family sedan. Usually kids go for small hatchbacks, something fast, or a cheap old beater. Not a brand new sedan with zero sporting credentials (unless it had the manual, in which case, sign me up!).
My first car was a 1st-gen Focus sedan...nothing sporty about it, other than one of the rare ones with 4-wheel disc brakes and heated front seats (cloth). It did have a factory spoiler, but it hardly made the car any more sporty, imo.
He could be possibly just referring to it being made by an American company. My Grandfather was big on pushing GM cars despite a lot of the parts content being decidedly non-American. Really I think he just wanted to make sure his pension fund was plenty healthy at the end of the day. There are still a lot of families in the Mid-West that actually buy cars that way.
Quote from: DaBigE on October 31, 2017, 10:10:46 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2017, 01:57:28 AM
This involves a few personal details, but the car is actually my dad's, not mine. I work at the family business, but I hate his schedule and he hates mine :D So he bought the car and I pay for gas and everything else. Also, I'm just not into cars that much. I could care less, as long as it's American made (we're a Ford family), doesn't resemble a Prius, and gets me from A to B, then I'm good with it. I know that probably sounds weird to say at 18, but it's the honest truth.
North American made? For the majority of it's life, the Fusion has been built in Mexico.
Beat me to it. I think some Fusions are still made in the US, though.
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2017, 01:57:28 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 31, 2017, 01:41:22 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2017, 01:31:12 AM
I have a '16 Ford Fusion. Highly recommend.
Odd car for 18. How'd you end up in that?
Odd that you think it's odd. It does have red stitching on the seats, and a spoiler :-D
This involves a few personal details, but the car is actually my dad's, not mine. I work at the family business, but I hate his schedule and he hates mine :D So he bought the car and I pay for gas and everything else. Also, I'm just not into cars that much. I could care less, as long as it's American made (we're a Ford family), doesn't resemble a Prius, and gets me from A to B, then I'm good with it. I know that probably sounds weird to say at 18, but it's the honest truth.
Then you'll want a Toyota or Honda.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/06/29/survey-top-made--usa-cars-toyota-honda/86510052/
People make the mistake of saying they want an American car. What they really want is a car from a company whose headquarters are in the US. They'll say this while they wearing clothing made overseas and holding a cell phone made overseas, with the first thing they do when they get in the car is mount their foreign-made GPS to the windshield. Their first fuelup will be from a gas station where the fuel was shipped in from overseas.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 31, 2017, 01:08:24 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2017, 01:57:28 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 31, 2017, 01:41:22 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2017, 01:31:12 AM
I have a '16 Ford Fusion. Highly recommend.
Odd car for 18. How'd you end up in that?
Odd that you think it's odd. It does have red stitching on the seats, and a spoiler :-D
This involves a few personal details, but the car is actually my dad's, not mine. I work at the family business, but I hate his schedule and he hates mine :D So he bought the car and I pay for gas and everything else. Also, I'm just not into cars that much. I could care less, as long as it's American made (we're a Ford family), doesn't resemble a Prius, and gets me from A to B, then I'm good with it. I know that probably sounds weird to say at 18, but it's the honest truth.
Then you'll want a Toyota or Honda.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/06/29/survey-top-made--usa-cars-toyota-honda/86510052/
People make the mistake of saying they want an American car. What they really want is a car from a company whose headquarters are in the US. They'll say this while they wearing clothing made overseas and holding a cell phone made overseas, with the first thing they do when they get in the car is mount their foreign-made GPS to the windshield. Their first fuelup will be from a gas station where the fuel was shipped in from overseas.
Ironically, most Fusions are
hecho en méxico.
In the world of the four-door affordable mid-sized sedan, it's in the upper half (Passat and Mazda 6 are nicer drives all-around).
The new Fusion is largely based on the previous European Mondeo, and was designed in Germany. Same with the Focus and Fiesta. The most recent "refresh" was updated by Ford of North America, but the underlying car is still the same as before.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 31, 2017, 01:08:24 PMPeople make the mistake of saying they want an American car. What they really want is a car from a company whose headquarters are in the US.
In the eyes of the EPA & the Federal Trade Commission; what makes a vehicle
domestic is not dependent on where the company's headquartered in and/or where the vehicle is assembled, but rather where the
parts originated from.
If a vehicle has less than 75% of its parts manufactured in the USA; it's considered an import (according to the EPA classification standards) regardless of it being a domestic brand and/or being assembled in the USA.
To the OP (webny99), what engine does your Fusion have? Does it have the standard controls (base S & SE models had these) or the MyTouch (higher trim levels)? The '16 model was the final year for the traditional gear shift on the Fusion; the 2017s use a knob en lieu of a shift.
I rented a couple of late model Fusions; a 2016 w/the Ecoboost last year & a 2017 Hybrid model (those at the recent Columbus meet saw & rode in that). Neither was a bad vehicle. While the battery of the Hybrid model reduces the trunk space; the rear seats still fold down should one need the rear seat space for extra cargo room.
Quote from: formulanone on October 31, 2017, 02:55:08 PMIn the world of the four-door affordable mid-sized sedan, it's in the upper half (Passat and Mazda 6 are nicer drives all-around).
While I haven't driven one; I was blown away by how roomy the Passat was (for its size) when I sat in one at last year's Auto Show in Philadelphia. I also liked the no-nonsense control/instrumentation layout (regardless of whether it was a stripped model or one loaded with all the tech toys).
Quote from: PHLBOS on November 01, 2017, 09:58:34 AM
Quote from: formulanone on October 31, 2017, 02:55:08 PM
In the world of the four-door affordable mid-sized sedan, it's in the upper half (Passat and Mazda 6 are nicer drives all-around).
While I haven't driven one; I was blown away by how roomy the Passat was (for its size) when I sat in one at last year's Auto Show in Philadelphia. I also liked the no-nonsense control/instrumentation layout (regardless of whether it was a stripped model or one loaded with all the tech toys).
My primary gripe with the Passat is its age. The Mk-7 Golf, released in North America back in 2015, still has a newer interior. And the 2018 (Mk-7.5) Golf, set to be released in the next few weeks, will have an even newer interior than the Mk-7 models. So, in effect, the Passat interior is now two "generations" behind the Golf (if you want to count the Mk-7 and 7.5 as separate generations). VW really ought to focus more on wagons and SUVs, and stop the Passat NMS crap. Just build the Passat B8 in Mexico, alongside an Alltrack wagon variant, and call it good.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 31, 2017, 01:41:22 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2017, 01:31:12 AM
I have a '16 Ford Fusion. Highly recommend.
Odd car for 18. How'd you end up in that?
My bucket list includes a '14 Fusion with a 6-speed manual, but they're rarer than hen's teeth.
When I bought my 2015 Golf new in Montana back in March 2015, there was a new manual 2014 Fusion randomly sitting on a lot up in Kalispell. I love my Golf, but part of me really regrets not buying that Fusion.
Quote from: corco on November 01, 2017, 08:04:23 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 31, 2017, 01:41:22 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2017, 01:31:12 AM
I have a '16 Ford Fusion. Highly recommend.
Odd car for 18. How'd you end up in that?
My bucket list includes a '14 Fusion with a 6-speed manual, but they're rarer than hen's teeth.
When I bought my 2015 Golf new in Montana back in March 2015, there was a new manual 2014 Fusion randomly sitting on a lot up in Kalispell. I love my Golf, but part of me really regrets not buying that Fusion.
Thinking back, I was in a similar position. I'm sure I could have found an unsold '14 Fusion with the manual if I wanted, but I really wanted a diesel engine, and a hatchback (hence the Golf I have now). Too bad the European Mondeo isn't sold here, with it's 6-speed manual, diesel engine and hatchback body style. I'd buy that in an instant!...
(https://www.fordeumedia-a.ford.com/nas/gforcenaslive/gbr/00r/yyk/images/gbr00ryykr05r3t(a)(a)rjh_27_0.png)
I jumped on my manual TSX when I found it in July. The service manager at the Acura dealer said the take rate on the manual on the 2nd generation TSX was about 3%. The 1st gen TSX had it slightly more common.
My first was my mom's old Dodge Dart. I had a Toyota Tercel at one time, as well as a Chevy Sprint (garbage).
If you have access to Consumer Reports, they can suggest used cars for almost every budget AND tell what trouble spots to watch.
Quote from: US71 on December 10, 2017, 08:25:26 PM
My first was my mom's old Dodge Dart. I had a Toyota Tercel at one time, as well as a Chevy Sprint (garbage).
If you have access to Consumer Reports, they can suggest used cars for almost every budget AND tell what trouble spots to watch.
Sprints may be garbage but there was a dedicated hypermile hobbyist group that took the 3-cylinder manual transmission model to the limit for MPG's using aero kits. They got that little car up to 75 MPG, which beats any current hybrid out there. Not bad for old-school tech and cheap grade quality!
Rick
Quote from: jakeroot on November 01, 2017, 08:19:55 PM
Quote from: corco on November 01, 2017, 08:04:23 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 31, 2017, 01:41:22 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2017, 01:31:12 AM
I have a '16 Ford Fusion. Highly recommend.
Odd car for 18. How'd you end up in that?
My bucket list includes a '14 Fusion with a 6-speed manual, but they're rarer than hen's teeth.
When I bought my 2015 Golf new in Montana back in March 2015, there was a new manual 2014 Fusion randomly sitting on a lot up in Kalispell. I love my Golf, but part of me really regrets not buying that Fusion.
Thinking back, I was in a similar position. I'm sure I could have found an unsold '14 Fusion with the manual if I wanted, but I really wanted a diesel engine, and a hatchback (hence the Golf I have now). Too bad the European Mondeo isn't sold here, with it's 6-speed manual, diesel engine and hatchback body style.
Given what recently went down w/VW and their diesels sold in the U.S; I don't think we'll be seeing any additional new diesel-powered car offerings in the U.S. market anytime soon.
Regarding manuals: aside from sports/sporty/muscle cars & maybe some bare-bones economy cars, the manual transmission is pretty much dead in the mainstream US car market now.
Quote from: PHLBOS on December 11, 2017, 02:13:41 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 01, 2017, 08:19:55 PM
Quote from: corco on November 01, 2017, 08:04:23 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 31, 2017, 01:41:22 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 31, 2017, 01:31:12 AM
I have a '16 Ford Fusion. Highly recommend.
Odd car for 18. How'd you end up in that?
My bucket list includes a '14 Fusion with a 6-speed manual, but they're rarer than hen's teeth.
When I bought my 2015 Golf new in Montana back in March 2015, there was a new manual 2014 Fusion randomly sitting on a lot up in Kalispell. I love my Golf, but part of me really regrets not buying that Fusion.
Thinking back, I was in a similar position. I'm sure I could have found an unsold '14 Fusion with the manual if I wanted, but I really wanted a diesel engine, and a hatchback (hence the Golf I have now). Too bad the European Mondeo isn't sold here, with it's 6-speed manual, diesel engine and hatchback body style.
Given what recently went down w/VW and their diesels sold in the U.S; I don't think we'll be seeing any additional new diesel-powered car offerings in the U.S. market anytime soon.
Regarding manuals: aside from sports/sporty/muscle cars & maybe some bare-bones economy cars, the manual transmission is pretty much dead in the mainstream US car market now.
Regarding diesels, agreed. Both Mazda (with the 6) and Acura (with the TSX) were rumored to be trying to certify their diesels to US standards this decade, but neither were successful. The TSX ended up getting an optional V6 instead, while Mazda is going to start putting the turbocharged 2.5 from the CX-9 in the 6 next year.
Regarding manuals, you're also correct. The market is dwindling for them worldwide, but especially so in the US. The exotic carmakers (Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc) have stopped making them at all, and only a few manual-only cars remain, mostly high-performance trims of mainstream compact cars: the Honda Civic Si and Type R, the Ford Focus ST and RS, and the Subaru STi.
Quote from: Takumi on December 11, 2017, 03:15:53 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on December 11, 2017, 02:13:41 PM
Given what recently went down w/VW and their diesels sold in the U.S; I don't think we'll be seeing any additional new diesel-powered car offerings in the U.S. market anytime soon.
Regarding manuals: aside from sports/sporty/muscle cars & maybe some bare-bones economy cars, the manual transmission is pretty much dead in the mainstream US car market now.
Regarding diesels, agreed. Both Mazda (with the 6) and Acura (with the TSX) were rumored to be trying to certify their diesels to US standards this decade, but neither were successful. The TSX ended up getting an optional V6 instead, while Mazda is going to start putting the turbocharged 2.5 from the CX-9 in the 6 next year.
Regarding manuals, you're also correct. The market is dwindling for them worldwide, but especially so in the US. The exotic carmakers (Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc) have stopped making them at all, and only a few manual-only cars remain, mostly high-performance trims of mainstream compact cars: the Honda Civic Si and Type R, the Ford Focus ST and RS, and the Subaru STi.
BMW continues to sell their diesel 3-series wagon and sedan, as well as the X5. Chevy sells the Equinox and the Cruze with a diesel (and they are actually on the lot at my local Chevy dealer -- the Cruze is available with a manual+diesel combo with both the hatch and sedan). GMC will sell you a Terrain with a diesel. The new Kia Sorento will come with a diesel, probably not till 2020. Hyundai has a diesel planned for the future. Ford is launching the F-150 with a diesel for the first time in a very long time, and Mazda will eventually offer a diesel with the CX-5. The certification appears to be taking quite a while, though. The new Wrangler will also be offered with a diesel. Jaguar and Land Rover also offer diesels in most of their models (new in the last two years).
Is diesel dead? I don't think it has a long-term future, but it's a proven way to improve fuel economy (short of a 4-banger with a CVT or 9-speed -- bleh), and I don't see it going away until electric vehicles fully take over (and that will take a while, once tax incentives disappear as they become more popular).
As far as the manual transmission, it's not "dead". It's just become relegated to specific categories: base trim models of small sedans, hatches, and some larger vehicles, and top-trim 'hot hatch' vehicles (like those mentioned already). In those categories, I don't think they'll go away for quite some time. They're still cheaper than an autobox.
Quote from: jakeroot on December 12, 2017, 02:06:48 AMBMW continues to sell their diesel 3-series wagon and sedan, as well as the X5. Chevy sells the Equinox and the Cruze with a diesel (and they are actually on the lot at my local Chevy dealer -- the Cruze is available with a manual+diesel combo with both the hatch and sedan). GMC will sell you a Terrain with a diesel. The new Kia Sorento will come with a diesel, probably not till 2020. Hyundai has a diesel planned for the future. Ford is launching the F-150 with a diesel for the first time in a very long time, and Mazda will eventually offer a diesel with the CX-5. The certification appears to be taking quite a while, though. The new Wrangler will also be offered with a diesel. Jaguar and Land Rover also offer diesels in most of their models (new in the last two years).
Since your profile lists two locations (BC/Tacoma, WA) that are in two separate countries (Canada & US respectively); I have to ask are those above observations for the Canadian or US market? Keep in mind that cars sold in the Canadian market aren't necessarily subject to the same restrictions as those in the US market; which could explain the wider availability of diesel-powered cars in your area. The fore-mentioned VW diesel emissions test fiasco, to my knowledge, only involved vehicles sold in the US market and not Canada.
Quote from: PHLBOS on December 12, 2017, 09:46:46 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 12, 2017, 02:06:48 AMBMW continues to sell their diesel 3-series wagon and sedan, as well as the X5. Chevy sells the Equinox and the Cruze with a diesel (and they are actually on the lot at my local Chevy dealer -- the Cruze is available with a manual+diesel combo with both the hatch and sedan). GMC will sell you a Terrain with a diesel. The new Kia Sorento will come with a diesel, probably not till 2020. Hyundai has a diesel planned for the future. Ford is launching the F-150 with a diesel for the first time in a very long time, and Mazda will eventually offer a diesel with the CX-5. The certification appears to be taking quite a while, though. The new Wrangler will also be offered with a diesel. Jaguar and Land Rover also offer diesels in most of their models (new in the last two years).
Since your profile lists two locations (BC/Tacoma, WA) that are in two separate countries (Canada & US respectively); I have to ask are those above observations for the Canadian or US market? Keep in mind that cars sold in the Canadian market aren't necessarily subject to the same restrictions as those in the US market; which could explain the wider availability of diesel-powered cars in your area. The fore-mentioned VW diesel emissions test fiasco, to my knowledge, only involved vehicles sold in the US market and not Canada.
The US and Canada have the same diesel market, although in BC I actually see more diesels because diesel is cheaper. I'm not aware of any diesel vehicles sold in either country that aren't sold in the other.
Environment Canada generally follows EPA vehicle regulations. When the stop-sale was announced for those VW models in Sep 2015, Environment Canada also issued a stop-sale. A similar lawsuit was brought against Volkswagen Group Canada, with a similar settlement reached.
The only difference between the two markets seems to be the import laws. 15 year old vehicles are eligible for important to Canada, whereas in the US the rule is 25 years. So I see a lot of Skylines, Mitsubishi Delicas, and various other JDM vehicles that haven't quite made their way down south.
Some people have commented that "once you try a manual you'll never want to drive an auto again".
In reality YMMV. My father liked both the cheapest possible cars he could buy (base model, crank windows, manual one of them didn't even have air conditioning), and manual transmissions. My first car I inherited from him. I did not mind the manual transmission, but then my sister got her car which was an auto. The first car I bought for myself was an auto and I have zero interest in ever buying a manual car. It might be fun in a sports car on an autobahn, but in a generic car in city traffic it just makes driving suck more than it already does.
With how prevalent autos are in the US it's unlikely you'll encounter "I'm being chased by the mafia and look, there's a car with keys in it sitting there but damn, it's a manual". Or even "I need to drive my drunk friend's manual home from the bar" type scenarios.
Quote from: Mdcastle on December 14, 2017, 10:16:59 AM
Some people have commented that "once you try a manual you'll never want to drive an auto again".
In reality YMMV. My father liked both the cheapest possible cars he could buy (base model, crank windows, manual one of them didn't even have air conditioning), and manual transmissions. My first car I inherited from him. I did not mind the manual transmission, but then my sister got her car which was an auto. The first car I bought for myself was an auto and I have zero interest in ever buying a manual car. It might be fun in a sports car on an autobahn, but in a generic car in city traffic it just makes driving suck more than it already does.
With how prevalent autos are in the US it's unlikely you'll encounter "I'm being chased by the mafia and look, there's a car with keys in it sitting there but damn, it's a manual". Or even "I need to drive my drunk friend's manual home from the bar" type scenarios.
I love driving stick, and I wish I had one these days. But rush hour in a major city can be brutal in a stick. Creepy-crawling, stop-and-go traffic... Ick.
It's funny, I've never had any issues driving a manual in city traffic. If anything, it's my right leg that cramps up from riding the brake so much....and in an automatic you have that weird thing where it rolls forward if you take your foot off the brake while stopped at a red light on a flat road.
Toyota econoboxes deserve their reputation for lasting a long time. They'd be a good budget choice, with as few options as possible. If it doesn't have electric this and that, it's fewer things to go wrong. Manual transmissions last longer than automatics or CVTs.
After about an hour of sitting in stop and go traffic, I do start to get a little bit tired of driving with two feet. But that scenario is pretty unusual, so I would never consider an automatic for that reason alone. Just driving around the city, in normal, slow-but-moving traffic, driving a manual doesn't bother me at all. If anything, I actually prefer it, because it allows me to both slow down and creep without using the brake; if there's one thing I really hate, it's people who ride their brakes. This is especially true when following close to someone. In an auto, you have to ride the brakes to keep from hitting the car in front, whereas in a manual, you can ride in a lower gear, such that letting off the throttle automatically slows you down (without brake lights). You can do this an auto with a manual mode, but I've always found those to be painfully slow to react (making it useless most of the time, except for when going down hills).
There's three primary reasons that I prefer manual transmissions:
1) they're somewhat unusual now (cool factor)
2) I don't drive in a lot of heavy traffic, so they're more enjoyable
3) compared to dual clutch transmissions, they are cheaper to service (often remarkably so, in the case of VW's DSG gearbox)
Quote from: jakeroot on December 14, 2017, 03:09:31 PMJust driving around the city, in normal, slow-but-moving traffic, driving a manual doesn't bother me at all. If anything, I actually prefer it, because it allows me to both slow down and creep without using the brake; if there's one thing I really hate, it's people who ride their brakes. This is especially true when following close to someone. In an auto, you have to ride the brakes to keep from hitting the car in front, whereas in a manual, you can ride in a lower gear, such that letting off the throttle automatically slows you down (without brake lights). You can do this an auto with a manual mode, but I've always found those to be painfully slow to react (making it useless most of the time, except for when going down hills).
Automatics vary widely in slowdown behavior. In the family fleet, the 1994 Saturn SL2 and 2009 Honda Fit (both of which have lockup in 2nd and above) slow down very quickly if you take your foot off the throttle. The 2005 Toyota Camry, on the other hand, barely slows down, partly because of Toyota's corporate decision (applying to pretty much all of their hydraulically actuated automatic transmissions) to engage one-way overrun clutches in the gears that do not lock up except when the driver purposely selects a lower gear range (for example, there is engine braking in 3rd for 3 range, but not for D). (The one-way clutches allow the engine to push on the driveshaft when the car is accelerating, but do not allow the driveshaft to push on the engine when the car is coasting.)
My general rule of thumb in moderately congested city traffic (assuming mostly level roads) is that riding the brakes is a symptom of following too closely. I generally aim to follow at such a distance that if the car ahead of me slows down and turns right into a driveway or side street, I don't have to tap my brakes to disengage cruise control (and yes, I use cruise control even when going from stoplight to stoplight).
Another rule of thumb about automatics and longevity is that, absent special design weaknesses, an automatic will last if it is maintained, though the maintenance may involve fluid changes that the manufacturer does not call for. Automatics do vary widely in how tolerant they are of neglect, so it is especially important to avoid being saddled with someone else's abused automatic.
My preferred approach is a fluid change (drain and fill, no flush) once every 30,000 miles, using a good-quality synthetic ATF that not only matches the manufacturer's specifications but also matches the out-of-bottle kinematic viscosity of the OEM fluid at 100° C.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 14, 2017, 03:46:25 PM
My general rule of thumb in moderately congested city traffic (assuming mostly level roads) is that riding the brakes is a symptom of following too closely. I generally aim to follow at such a distance that if the car ahead of me slows down and turns right into a driveway or side street, I don't have to tap my brakes to disengage cruise control (and yes, I use cruise control even when going from stoplight to stoplight).
I hope I'm not implying that I follow half a foot from the car in front of me. At lower speeds, I usually leave a car length or two. At higher speeds, usually three to four car lengths (often twice that if traffic levels are low). That must sound like a very short amount compared to what you usually practice, but it's a pretty standard amount around here. If I leave any bigger of a gap, everyone is going to exploit it, and I will be the target of quite a lot of road rage.
Get a Honda Civic hatchback from the 90s!
My first car was a 1981 Honda Civic hatchback.
Quote from: Rothman on December 16, 2017, 10:14:21 PM
My first car was a 1981 Honda Civic hatchback.
Did it only have 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears?
No.