Think about it. If you know what you're doing behind the wheel, you shouldn't ever come into a situation where your wheels would lock up. If you go slow enough on snowy roads and use a threshold braking technique, in some cases you can actually stop before a vehicle equipped with ABS. To me, ABS exists because too many people brake improperly, as in they slam the brakes on when they start to loose control of the car instead of applying the breaks earlier and progressively slowing the car down.
Thoughts, anyone?
If we all knew what we're doing behind the wheel, we wouldn't need seat belts. Or air bags. Or guard rails.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on January 04, 2018, 05:04:29 PM
Think about it. If you know what you're doing behind the wheel, you shouldn't ever come into a situation where your wheels would lock up.
Ever hit a deer?
Driving is inherently dangerous. Cocking up at any reasonable speed in a very heavy object is a recipe for disaster. Therefore, it is in our best interests for our cars to have safety systems that watch what we're doing, and step in when we don't. In the case of ABS, if a pedestrian steps out into the road and we haven't left enough of a gap to stop without ABS, ABS would potentially prevent a serious collision.
There were different technologies over time. Personal anecdotal experience:
My first car with ABS behaved.. funny. Once upon a time, on nice fresh snow, it basically refused to brake at all and rolled past stop sign into the middle of intersection. Locked brakes would just create a snow choke in front of the wheel -which would stop the car without an issue. So I drove a few years with ABS disabled.
A 20 year newer car, as tested today, does not engage ABS pulsing in similar conditions - at least until speed is in single digits, and car somehow slows down without an issue.
So your mileage may vary. Looks like newer systems are smarter, computer knows more than just wheel rotation speed and reacts accordingly.
Hell why we go back to 15x5 tires and four drum brakes while we're at it? Of course ABS has merit, I can tell you from driving cars without ABS that it was something I was glad was always there when I didn't expect it. Driving in Michigan back in the winter used to mean you were going lock up the brakes at some point no matter what. ABS made things way safer for the average driver, I'd argue that decent traction control made RWD mainstream again.
Since the OP is from Connecticut, look up Dorwin Hill out in New Milford. I watched a neighbor look up the brakes after a blizzard which led to a nasty downhill slide into a neighborhood ditch.
I didn't have ABS for a long time while I lived in very snowy/icy climates. When I first got it, I despised it. Now that I'm used to it - I like it. I still near-threshold brake as if the car didn't have ABS, but if I do lock up it's a lot easier to not have to pump the brakes.
Stability control, on the other hand - I've had it for a few years now and still can't get used to that. The first time I ever drove a car with it I damn near went in the ditch when I corrected while it was correcting and I was intentionally applying a lot of gas on an icy surface (the snow-covered ramp/clear freeway situation which is common in Wyoming a few days after snow storms where you need to get up to speed before hitting the completely cleared freeway from an unplowed ramp) - and needed to get up to speed even without traction. I turn it off now when the roads are snowy/icy.
Car insurance companies will give you a lower rate to insure a car with anti-lock brakes. That is a pretty definitive assessment that they are worthwhile - insurance companies know what reduces their likelihood of having a claim to pay out, and they know it well.
Quote from: Duke87 on January 05, 2018, 09:00:12 PM
Car insurance companies will give you a lower rate to insure a car with anti-lock brakes. That is a pretty definitive assessment that they are worthwhile - insurance companies know what reduces their likelihood of having a claim to pay out, and they know it well.
I'd imagine that discount's years are numbered. The vast majority of cars sold in the US in the 21st century have had ABS, and the last car that didn't have it as a standard feature (the JB Kia Rio) has long since been replaced. Don't get me wrong, it's a great feature. But I'm not sure it's necessary to incentivise it anymore.
Quote from: Duke87 on January 05, 2018, 09:00:12 PM
Car insurance companies will give you a lower rate to insure a car with anti-lock brakes. That is a pretty definitive assessment that they are worthwhile - insurance companies know what reduces their likelihood of having a claim to pay out, and they know it well.
One of the cars I was driving had an automatic seatbelt, and my insurance gave a discount for that.
Automatic seatbelts were on decline at that time - in fact I didn't see any other such cars - as they proved to be a safety issue. That didn't affect discount at all.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 06, 2018, 12:19:22 AM
I'd imagine that discount's years are numbered. The vast majority of cars sold in the US in the 21st century have had ABS, and the last car that didn't have it as a standard feature (the JB Kia Rio) has long since been replaced. Don't get me wrong, it's a great feature. But I'm not sure it's necessary to incentivise it anymore.
Removing insensitive is difficult. And keeping it doesn't cost much - just tweak the generic rate a bit up so that discount returns it to normal.
Besides, there are different systems, and insurance may factor a bit lower rate for more advanced ones.
Quote from: kalvado on January 06, 2018, 07:15:07 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 05, 2018, 09:00:12 PM
Car insurance companies will give you a lower rate to insure a car with anti-lock brakes. That is a pretty definitive assessment that they are worthwhile - insurance companies know what reduces their likelihood of having a claim to pay out, and they know it well.
One of the cars I was driving had an automatic seatbelt, and my insurance gave a discount for that.
Automatic seatbelts were on decline at that time - in fact I didn't see any other such cars - as they proved to be a safety issue. That didn't affect discount at all.
I don't think they were a safety issue specifically...I think two things were happening: some people were disconnecting them, and people preferred airbags over auto seatbelts.
Early on, car manufactors were required to install auto seatbelts OR airbags. Airbags decidedly became the standard for safety.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 06, 2018, 07:29:43 AM
Quote from: kalvado on January 06, 2018, 07:15:07 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 05, 2018, 09:00:12 PM
Car insurance companies will give you a lower rate to insure a car with anti-lock brakes. That is a pretty definitive assessment that they are worthwhile - insurance companies know what reduces their likelihood of having a claim to pay out, and they know it well.
One of the cars I was driving had an automatic seatbelt, and my insurance gave a discount for that.
Automatic seatbelts were on decline at that time - in fact I didn't see any other such cars - as they proved to be a safety issue. That didn't affect discount at all.
I don't think they were a safety issue specifically...I think two things were happening: some people were disconnecting them, and people preferred airbags over auto seatbelts.
Early on, car manufactors were required to install auto seatbelts OR airbags. Airbags decidedly became the standard for safety.
Automatic seatbelts ended up safety issue as it was only a shoulder belt - lap belt was still manual. Most people ended up using automatic shoulder belt only, and there was a very specific issue associated with that: after impact, lower part of the body was sliding forward as there was nothing holding it at the lap, chin was caught by the shoulder belt, and as body was sliding forward that resulted in neck injury - often fatal one.
IMHO, yes and no. ABS will aid you in stopping quickly on dry of wet pavement, but seems to be rather useless on ice for anything other than merely keeping the vehicle in a straight line. It's better, on ice, to downshift and brake gently.
There is also a certain amount of increased risk-taking among certain drivers. People (probably not most of the people on this board, but the average Joe Schmo) tend to drive slightly faster, slightly more recklessly than they would have in the same conditions because they know they are now driving with anti-lock brakes, stability control, etc; they assume the ABS will get them out of whatever driving situation the bad weather created, not having the same awareness as Brandon, above, for example.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 06, 2018, 12:19:22 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 05, 2018, 09:00:12 PM
Car insurance companies will give you a lower rate to insure a car with anti-lock brakes. That is a pretty definitive assessment that they are worthwhile - insurance companies know what reduces their likelihood of having a claim to pay out, and they know it well.
I'd imagine that discount's years are numbered. The vast majority of cars sold in the US in the 21st century have had ABS, and the last car that didn't have it as a standard feature (the JB Kia Rio) has long since been replaced. Don't get me wrong, it's a great feature. But I'm not sure it's necessary to incentivise it anymore.
If you go to insure an antique car without ABS, should you pay the same rate as if it had ABS? If not, then there's a reason to incentivise ABS.
Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2018, 02:32:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 06, 2018, 12:19:22 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 05, 2018, 09:00:12 PM
Car insurance companies will give you a lower rate to insure a car with anti-lock brakes. That is a pretty definitive assessment that they are worthwhile - insurance companies know what reduces their likelihood of having a claim to pay out, and they know it well.
I'd imagine that discount's years are numbered. The vast majority of cars sold in the US in the 21st century have had ABS, and the last car that didn't have it as a standard feature (the JB Kia Rio) has long since been replaced. Don't get me wrong, it's a great feature. But I'm not sure it's necessary to incentivise it anymore.
If you go to insure an antique car without ABS, should you pay the same rate as if it had ABS? If not, then there's a reason to incentivise ABS.
You can apply same logic to seatbelts, which were not present in Ford-T. Where is my seatbelt discount?
Quote from: kalvado on January 08, 2018, 03:47:11 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2018, 02:32:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 06, 2018, 12:19:22 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 05, 2018, 09:00:12 PM
Car insurance companies will give you a lower rate to insure a car with anti-lock brakes. That is a pretty definitive assessment that they are worthwhile - insurance companies know what reduces their likelihood of having a claim to pay out, and they know it well.
I'd imagine that discount's years are numbered. The vast majority of cars sold in the US in the 21st century have had ABS, and the last car that didn't have it as a standard feature (the JB Kia Rio) has long since been replaced. Don't get me wrong, it's a great feature. But I'm not sure it's necessary to incentivise it anymore.
If you go to insure an antique car without ABS, should you pay the same rate as if it had ABS? If not, then there's a reason to incentivise ABS.
You can apply same logic to seatbelts, which were not present in Ford-T. Where is my seatbelt discount?
Are you certain it doesn't cost extra to insure a car without seat belts?
Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2018, 03:57:56 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 08, 2018, 03:47:11 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2018, 02:32:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 06, 2018, 12:19:22 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 05, 2018, 09:00:12 PM
Car insurance companies will give you a lower rate to insure a car with anti-lock brakes. That is a pretty definitive assessment that they are worthwhile - insurance companies know what reduces their likelihood of having a claim to pay out, and they know it well.
I'd imagine that discount's years are numbered. The vast majority of cars sold in the US in the 21st century have had ABS, and the last car that didn't have it as a standard feature (the JB Kia Rio) has long since been replaced. Don't get me wrong, it's a great feature. But I'm not sure it's necessary to incentivise it anymore.
If you go to insure an antique car without ABS, should you pay the same rate as if it had ABS? If not, then there's a reason to incentivise ABS.
You can apply same logic to seatbelts, which were not present in Ford-T. Where is my seatbelt discount?
Are you certain it doesn't cost extra to insure a car without seat belts?
Pretty sure I get a discount on my insurance because I state I use a seatbelt every time I drive. If my car didn't have seatbelts, I wouldn't be able to claim that discount, so, yeah, it still exists.
Regarding antilock brakes, I still find it somewhat astonishing how many people I've spoken to don't know how they work. I've known quite a few people who have said their antilock brakes don't work correctly because "the pedal started vibrating, so I took my foot off." :ded: They're always astonished when I tell them that's exactly how the system is supposed to work. :banghead:
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 08, 2018, 04:55:52 PM
Regarding antilock brakes, I still find it somewhat astonishing how many people I've spoken to don't know how they work. I've known quite a few people who have said their antilock brakes don't work correctly because "the pedal started vibrating, so I took my foot off." :ded: They're always astonished when I tell them that's exactly how the system is supposed to work. :banghead:
Generally speaking, pulsation means system gave up on the task and does more harm than good.
Quote from: corco on January 08, 2018, 04:33:55 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2018, 03:57:56 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 08, 2018, 03:47:11 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2018, 02:32:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 06, 2018, 12:19:22 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 05, 2018, 09:00:12 PM
Car insurance companies will give you a lower rate to insure a car with anti-lock brakes. That is a pretty definitive assessment that they are worthwhile - insurance companies know what reduces their likelihood of having a claim to pay out, and they know it well.
I'd imagine that discount's years are numbered. The vast majority of cars sold in the US in the 21st century have had ABS, and the last car that didn't have it as a standard feature (the JB Kia Rio) has long since been replaced. Don't get me wrong, it's a great feature. But I'm not sure it's necessary to incentivise it anymore.
If you go to insure an antique car without ABS, should you pay the same rate as if it had ABS? If not, then there's a reason to incentivise ABS.
You can apply same logic to seatbelts, which were not present in Ford-T. Where is my seatbelt discount?
Are you certain it doesn't cost extra to insure a car without seat belts?
Pretty sure I get a discount on my insurance because I state I use a seatbelt every time I drive. If my car didn't have seatbelts, I wouldn't be able to claim that discount, so, yeah, it still exists.
To make it clear, I never said an ABS discount didn't exist. I just said that I thought it would eventually be on its way out, likely to be replaced by a (not necessarily obvious on your statement) penalty for driving without ABS.
Insurance corporations still need to make money. They aren't going to make money by endlessly incentivising every safety feature. They will at first, because they know it's good PR, but once they become standard features, they'll eventually just start to penalise those who don't have the feature.
Quote from: kalvado on January 08, 2018, 05:28:07 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 08, 2018, 04:55:52 PM
Regarding antilock brakes, I still find it somewhat astonishing how many people I've spoken to don't know how they work. I've known quite a few people who have said their antilock brakes don't work correctly because "the pedal started vibrating, so I took my foot off." :ded: They're always astonished when I tell them that's exactly how the system is supposed to work. :banghead:
Generally speaking, pulsation means system gave up on the task and does more harm than good.
Not according to anything I've ever read anywhere. The pedal viberates because the system pumps the brakes far faster than any human being is capable of doing. Now, you could say that the person might have done better to brake in a way that would not have necessitated the vibration, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that as a general comment.
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 08, 2018, 05:53:21 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 08, 2018, 05:28:07 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 08, 2018, 04:55:52 PM
Regarding antilock brakes, I still find it somewhat astonishing how many people I've spoken to don't know how they work. I've known quite a few people who have said their antilock brakes don't work correctly because "the pedal started vibrating, so I took my foot off." :ded: They're always astonished when I tell them that's exactly how the system is supposed to work. :banghead:
Generally speaking, pulsation means system gave up on the task and does more harm than good.
Not according to anything I've ever read anywhere. The pedal viberates because the system pumps the brakes far faster than any human being is capable of doing. Now, you could say that the person might have done better to brake in a way that would not have necessitated the vibration, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that as a general comment.
No, what I am saying is that with fully electronic brakes, there is no need to "open valve", "easy on the pedal" can be done without vibration. Or without any mechanical feedback, for that matter.
Large swing in actuation means oscillations of the output variable.
Thinking about it, vibrating pedal maybe a way of relaying message to the driver..
Quote from: jakeroot on January 08, 2018, 05:36:36 PM
To make it clear, I never said an ABS discount didn't exist. I just said that I thought it would eventually be on its way out, likely to be replaced by a (not necessarily obvious on your statement) penalty for driving without ABS.
These two things are mathematically equivalent. Either way there is a delta of X dollars between what you pay if you have ABS and what you pay if you don't. Which one is treated as the baseline condition doesn't make a difference to the profit margin on each policy and is merely a marketing decision.
Quote from: Duke87 on January 09, 2018, 12:07:39 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 08, 2018, 05:36:36 PM
To make it clear, I never said an ABS discount didn't exist. I just said that I thought it would eventually be on its way out, likely to be replaced by a (not necessarily obvious on your statement) penalty for driving without ABS.
These two things are mathematically equivalent. Either way there is a delta of X dollars between what you pay if you have ABS and what you pay if you don't. Which one is treated as the baseline condition doesn't make a difference to the profit margin on each policy and is merely a marketing decision.
Maybe. It's entirely possible that insurance corporations will increase insurance costs to pre-discount levels, and increase the costs above that new baseline for those without ABS.
Quote from: kalvado on January 04, 2018, 09:25:36 PMMy first car with ABS behaved.. funny. Once upon a time, on nice fresh snow, it basically refused to brake at all and rolled past stop sign into the middle of intersection. Locked brakes would just create a snow choke in front of the wheel -which would stop the car without an issue. So I drove a few years with ABS disabled.
Maturity of the technology is definitely an issue, not just with ABS but also with traction control and vehicle stability control. Both of the cars I drive regularly have ABS, but the older one (turns 24 this February) has a first-generation design and I suspect it lengthens stopping distances in snow. However, attempting a low-speed emergency stop on fresh snow not only verifies the system is still working after more than 20 years, but also gives me a sense of how much margin for error I have.
ABS can be an issue when performing basic brake services like replacing pads and rotors because the manufacturers invariably instruct mechanics to park the ABS motors, which of course can be done only with a service stall or handheld diagnostic tool. Supposedly the work can be done with the motors unparked (typical in shadetree contexts), at least for some models, but the implications for durability of doing so are unclear.
Quote from: Duke87 on January 05, 2018, 09:00:12 PMCar insurance companies will give you a lower rate to insure a car with anti-lock brakes. That is a pretty definitive assessment that they are worthwhile - insurance companies know what reduces their likelihood of having a claim to pay out, and they know it well.
Does not follow. Insurance companies continue to offer discounts for driver education even though it has been argued (notably in Ralph Nader's
Unsafe at any speed) that it does little to improve safety outcomes. Discounts are often driven as much or more by marketing as they are by actuarial considerations.
Quote from: kphoger on January 04, 2018, 05:30:46 PMEver hit a deer?
I have, several times, and in each case the collision occurred before I could even move my foot to the brake. Reaction time is usually around 0.6 sec (up to 1 sec for about 10% of drivers) and at night at freeway speeds that is more than the time that elapses between the deer becoming visible in headlamp spill and impact. I'd be surprised if even automatic braking systems could cope with deer.
Quote from: US 81 on January 08, 2018, 07:16:15 AMThere is also a certain amount of increased risk-taking among certain drivers. People (probably not most of the people on this board, but the average Joe Schmo) tend to drive slightly faster, slightly more recklessly than they would have in the same conditions because they know they are now driving with anti-lock brakes, stability control, etc; they assume the ABS will get them out of whatever driving situation the bad weather created, not having the same awareness as Brandon, above, for example.
Risk compensation can be a problem at the aggregate level. In my own case, ABS doesn't really affect my driving style because I am aiming to minimize loss of brake pad material.
Quote from: kalvado on January 06, 2018, 07:36:43 AMAutomatic seatbelts ended up safety issue as it was only a shoulder belt - lap belt was still manual. Most people ended up using automatic shoulder belt only, and there was a very specific issue associated with that: after impact, lower part of the body was sliding forward as there was nothing holding it at the lap, chin was caught by the shoulder belt, and as body was sliding forward that resulted in neck injury - often fatal one.
The cause of all of this was a late-1980's passive restraint standard. There were basically three approaches to compliance: airbag, motorized shoulder belt with manual lap belt, and door-mounted fully manual seatbelts. The last-listed was deemed a passive restraint because in theory the driver or passenger could climb into the car with the seatbelt buckled, after appropriate gymnastics. Pre-1998 airbags were also "full power" and it was not until comparatively late that the word went around that seatbelts also needed to be buckled to get the full benefit of airbag protection.
My 1994 Saturn SL2 (daily driver) has ABS (Delco Moraine V), traction control (software overlay on the ABS system), manual lap belts with motorized shoulder belts, and a driver's airbag. On the Saturn S-Series the motorized belts and airbags overlapped for two model years (1993-1994) since motorized belts had been provided from the beginning while airbags were a later addition. The next year, the interior trim was lightly redesigned to allow manual-only belts with the airbags, and the year after that was a different generation altogether.
The Saturn has been in my family since new, so we still remember how the motorized shoulder belts work. I have carried passengers ranging in age from 32 to 66 who either never experienced them or have forgotten how they work, so they get tangled in the belt as the mouse moves, or think they need to disconnect the buckle from the mouse.
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 09, 2018, 02:40:34 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 04, 2018, 05:30:46 PM
Ever hit a deer?
I have, several times, and in each case the collision occurred before I could even move my foot to the brake. Reaction time is usually around 0.6 sec (up to 1 sec for about 10% of drivers) and at night at freeway speeds that is more than the time that elapses between the deer becoming visible in headlamp spill and impact. I'd be surprised if even automatic braking systems could cope with deer.
I've only hit a deer once, but I was able to slow down from 65 to 25 mph before making contact, and it just limped away. It didn't even dent the bumper (although I didn't argue when my parents assumed the bumper dent they found later from my hitting a parked car was from the deer). There have been several times when I've seen a large animal in time to come to a stop or slow down enough that it walked away. Once was coming over a hill to find a cow in the middle of the road.
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 09, 2018, 02:40:34 AM
There were basically three approaches to compliance: airbag, motorized shoulder belt with manual lap belt, and door-mounted fully manual seatbelts. The last-listed was deemed a passive restraint because in theory the driver or passenger could climb into the car with the seatbelt buckled, after appropriate gymnastics. Pre-1998 airbags were also "full power" and it was not until comparatively late that the word went around that seatbelts also needed to be buckled to get the full benefit of airbag protection.
My 1994 Saturn SL2 (daily driver) has ABS (Delco Moraine V), traction control (software overlay on the ABS system), manual lap belts with motorized shoulder belts, and a driver's airbag. On the Saturn S-Series the motorized belts and airbags overlapped for two model years (1993-1994) since motorized belts had been provided from the beginning while airbags were a later addition. The next year, the interior trim was lightly redesigned to allow manual-only belts with the airbags, and the year after that was a different generation altogether.
The Saturn has been in my family since new, so we still remember how the motorized shoulder belts work. I have carried passengers ranging in age from 32 to 66 who either never experienced them or have forgotten how they work, so they get tangled in the belt as the mouse moves, or think they need to disconnect the buckle from the mouse.
The car I learned to drive in had those automatic seat belts–a 1988 Toyota Camry 5-speed. It had buttons down in the center console that allowed you to release the belts in case of emergency. When you pressed the button, the car started beeping. We took pleasure in secretly pushing them when giving someone a ride, and making them wonder what the beeping was from.
Quote from: kphoger on January 09, 2018, 01:46:10 PMI've only hit a deer once, but I was able to slow down from 65 to 25 mph before making contact, and it just limped away. It didn't even dent the bumper (although I didn't argue when my parents assumed the bumper dent they found later from my hitting a parked car was from the deer). There have been several times when I've seen a large animal in time to come to a stop or slow down enough that it walked away. Once was coming over a hill to find a cow in the middle of the road.
The closest I have come to this scenario is on Nevada SR 375 (Extraterrestrials Highway) going west shortly after sunset. This is open-range country and some kind of bull decided he wanted to cross in front of me as I was approaching him at 70. He was silhouetted against the sky and was moving slowly, so I had enough time to hit the brakes and stop about 20 feet short. He looked at me as if to say, "What's the big deal?"
This was in a car without ABS, by the way.
Quote from: kphoger on January 09, 2018, 01:46:10 PMThe car I learned to drive in had those automatic seat belts–a 1988 Toyota Camry 5-speed. It had buttons down in the center console that allowed you to release the belts in case of emergency. When you pressed the button, the car started beeping. We took pleasure in secretly pushing them when giving someone a ride, and making them wonder what the beeping was from.
The all-time favorite car in the family was a 1990 Toyota Cressida that was also the only other car we ever owned with motorized shoulder belts. It had release levers built into the console on either side of the handbrake handle. We never actually pulled them because it was not clear how we would put them back. For light amusement for passengers we could always push the button that exposes or hides the second bank of climate controls.
The Saturn has its emergency releases built into the belt mouses themselves.
Anti-lock brakes (and the traction/stability control ABS enables) are certainly NOT overrated. Ever drive a rear-wheel-drive pickup in the snow? Without those systems in place, those drive like drunk cows on roller skates. ABS and stability control give critical extra margins of control to make the vehicle controllable - particularly important when driver skill seems to be decreasing over time.
Will they save you from bald tires and willfully stupid behavior? No. But there's a reason they're mandated on new cars, trucks, and semi-trucks now - they work.
ABS definitely helps a lot, IMHO. I have had it in these cars -- 1994 Buick LeSabre, 2003 Buick LeSabre, 2016 Buick LaCrosse.
When making an emergency full brake application, it pumped wheel cylinders rapidly and even on snow and ice the car maintained straight path stability.
Something that you rarely need, but when you need it, is very important.
Another important benefit of ABS is that it is used for the traction control system and that iMO is even more useful than the braking function, for 2-wheel drive in slippery conditions. My 2003 and 2016 cars have traction control.
As a measure of the value I put on ABS, my 2003 car had a wheel ABS harness fail twice, IIRC at about 150,000 miles and at about 220,000 miles. When that happens the whole ABS system disables and you have manual only braking and no traction control. The repair each time was about $400. After driving the car for awhile without ABS, I willingly paid for the repair and was pleased to have ABS again operational. This was on a car with high mileage where some people would have just left it disabled rather than pay for the repair, which was expensive.
Quote from: Beltway on January 10, 2018, 02:34:48 PM
ABS definitely helps a lot, IMHO. I have had it in these cars -- 1994 Buick LeSabre, 2003 Buick LeSabre, 2016 Buick LaCrosse.
Surprised any of those cars would have ABS. They weigh enough to plow through
just about anything unlucky enough to be in their way.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 10, 2018, 03:36:10 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 10, 2018, 02:34:48 PM
ABS definitely helps a lot, IMHO. I have had it in these cars -- 1994 Buick LeSabre, 2003 Buick LeSabre, 2016 Buick LaCrosse.
Surprised any of those cars would have ABS. They weigh enough to plow through just about anything unlucky enough to be in their way.
Back in high school, we once went cruising in my friend's grandma's '55 Ford. 2½ tons of steel, no power steering. We told him to watch out for deer, it being shortly after dark. His response: "I
dare a deer to jump out in front of this car."
Quote from: jakeroot on January 10, 2018, 03:36:10 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 10, 2018, 02:34:48 PM
ABS definitely helps a lot, IMHO. I have had it in these cars -- 1994 Buick LeSabre, 2003 Buick LeSabre, 2016 Buick LaCrosse.
Surprised any of those cars would have ABS. They weigh enough to plow through just about anything unlucky enough to be in their way.
Nearly every car made in the past 5 years has ABS (it's been a US federal requirement since late-2013), and I'd wager that most mid-priced vehicles in the past 20 years had it, too.
Quote from: formulanone on January 10, 2018, 03:50:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 10, 2018, 03:36:10 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 10, 2018, 02:34:48 PM
ABS definitely helps a lot, IMHO. I have had it in these cars -- 1994 Buick LeSabre, 2003 Buick LeSabre, 2016 Buick LaCrosse.
Surprised any of those cars would have ABS. They weigh enough to plow through just about anything unlucky enough to be in their way.
Nearly every car made in the past 5 years has ABS (it's been a US federal requirement since late-2013), and I'd wager that most mid-priced vehicles in the past 20 years had it, too.
For the record...
2018 — 1994 > 20
[/nitpick]
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 09, 2018, 11:45:49 PM
Anti-lock brakes (and the traction/stability control ABS enables) are certainly NOT overrated. Ever drive a rear-wheel-drive pickup in the snow? Without those systems in place, those drive like drunk cows on roller skates. ABS and stability control give critical extra margins of control to make the vehicle controllable - particularly important when driver skill seems to be decreasing over time.
Will they save you from bald tires and willfully stupid behavior? No. But there's a reason they're mandated on new cars, trucks, and semi-trucks now - they work.
They're only mandated on trucks weighing 10,001 lbs GVWR according to the newest FMVSS.
My 2003 Chevy Malibu surprisingly doesn't have ABS. My parents were surprised when I told them after I had bought it from them that it doesn't have ABS. I've had older cars that had ABS like my 1993 Dodge Intrepid, 1992 Chevy Lumina, and 1997 Pontiac TranSport. I could get by either with or without ABS, but it is definitely nice to have.
My wife's 2007 Saturn Vue has ABS, but the light has been on in the dash for about two years and the ABS doesn't work. We've had it in to our local mechanic and he says it's mostly likely just a sensor that is bad, but he doesn't deal with those. So once we get our tax refund back we're going to finally take it in to the dealer to have it fixed. Right now it is just like somebody upthread said, the brakes work fine, but there is no automatic pumping of the brakes when the wheels lock up on snow or ice, so you have to pump the brakes manually.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 10, 2018, 03:36:10 PMSurprised any of those cars would have ABS. They weigh enough to plow through just about anything unlucky enough to be in their way.
Antilock brakes were routine provision in airplane landing gear long before cars. The empty weight of an Airbus A380 (to quote just one example) is 361 tonnes.
Quote from: formulanone on January 10, 2018, 03:50:14 PMNearly every car made in the past 5 years has ABS (it's been a US federal requirement since late-2013), and I'd wager that most mid-priced vehicles in the past 20 years had it, too.
In this drive-'em-till-they-die family, the last car not equipped with ABS left our ownership in 2007 and was then 22 years old. At least one vehicle in the family fleet has had ABS from 1994 onward. The oldest car we have owned that was equipped with ABS was a 1990 Toyota Cressida (purchased 1995 from a relative who had bought it new).
Just to make it clear, I was just having a laugh at Buick. I would sure as hell hope those American-designed Buick tanks would have ABS. The only Buick in the last twenty years that I'd be comfortable in without ABS would be the Regal, and that's because it's German, and is vastly more maneuverable.
Quote from: kphoger on January 10, 2018, 03:54:46 PM
Quote from: formulanone on January 10, 2018, 03:50:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 10, 2018, 03:36:10 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 10, 2018, 02:34:48 PM
ABS definitely helps a lot, IMHO. I have had it in these cars -- 1994 Buick LeSabre, 2003 Buick LeSabre, 2016 Buick LaCrosse.
Surprised any of those cars would have ABS. They weigh enough to plow through just about anything unlucky enough to be in their way.
Nearly every car made in the past 5 years has ABS (it's been a US federal requirement since late-2013), and I'd wager that most mid-priced vehicles in the past 20 years had it, too.
For the record...
2018 — 1994 > 20
[/nitpick]
No nitpick, anti-lock. :P
GM and Mercedes-Benz had offered it in some limited capacity since before we'd been born, but that doesn't necessarily make something commonplace.
For the record, my "˜09 Scion doesn't have ABS, since it was an option.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 10, 2018, 05:26:18 PM
Just to make it clear, I was just having a laugh at Buick. I would sure as hell hope those American-designed Buick tanks would have ABS. The only Buick in the last twenty years that I'd be comfortable in without ABS would be the Regal, and that's because it's German, and is vastly more maneuverable.
The 1994 and 2003 LeSabre's weren't very heavy, they were about 3,300 lbs.
The 2016 LaCrosse is a lot heavier, over 3,900 lbs.
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 10, 2018, 04:16:26 PM
Antilock brakes were routine provision in airplane landing gear long before cars. The empty weight of an Airbus A380 (to quote just one example) is 361 tonnes.
Like even back in the 1960s with the Boeing 707 and Douglas DC-8, and others later.
Quote from: Beltway on January 10, 2018, 06:33:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 10, 2018, 05:26:18 PM
Just to make it clear, I was just having a laugh at Buick. I would sure as hell hope those American-designed Buick tanks would have ABS. The only Buick in the last twenty years that I'd be comfortable in without ABS would be the Regal, and that's because it's German, and is vastly more maneuverable.
The 1994 and 2003 LeSabre's weren't very heavy, they were about 3,300 lbs.
The 2016 LaCrosse is a lot heavier, over 3,900 lbs.
Yeah, actually those Buicks were pretty lightweight for those years. My head must be stuck in the 80s.
Nonetheless, they still had terrible handling. I wouldn't have felt safe in them, unless they were able to stop on a dime.
I'm on my fourth car. My 1983 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera I drove in college and shortly thereafter didn't have ABS. My 1994 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme had ABS. My 2003 Oldsmobile Alero does not have ABS as it was the base model, although the wheel hubs have the speed sensors. My 2017 Chevrolet Cruze does have ABS and traction control.
Anti lock brakes suck. So I'm trying to stop and I can't because my brakes don't let me.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 10, 2018, 06:53:38 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 10, 2018, 06:33:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 10, 2018, 05:26:18 PM
Just to make it clear, I was just having a laugh at Buick. I would sure as hell hope those American-designed Buick tanks would have ABS. The only Buick in the last twenty years that I'd be comfortable in without ABS would be the Regal, and that's because it's German, and is vastly more maneuverable.
The 1994 and 2003 LeSabre's weren't very heavy, they were about 3,300 lbs.
The 2016 LaCrosse is a lot heavier, over 3,900 lbs.
Yeah, actually those Buicks were pretty lightweight for those years. My head must be stuck in the 80s.
Nonetheless, they still had terrible handling. I wouldn't have felt safe in them, unless they were able to stop on a dime.
Like the Buick Roadmaster? That was built on the Chevrolet Caprice platform, obviously a really big sedan. Last built in 1996.
"Full sized" sedans built since the mid-1990s, with the exception of the Crown Victoria, are the size and weight of what were formerly in the mid-sized class.
The Buicks I had/have all had good handling. I had a 1990 Buick Century as well, and that almost bordered on being a compact.
Quote from: Beltway on January 10, 2018, 09:04:01 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 10, 2018, 06:53:38 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 10, 2018, 06:33:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 10, 2018, 05:26:18 PM
Just to make it clear, I was just having a laugh at Buick. I would sure as hell hope those American-designed Buick tanks would have ABS. The only Buick in the last twenty years that I'd be comfortable in without ABS would be the Regal, and that's because it's German, and is vastly more maneuverable.
The 1994 and 2003 LeSabre's weren't very heavy, they were about 3,300 lbs.
The 2016 LaCrosse is a lot heavier, over 3,900 lbs.
Yeah, actually those Buicks were pretty lightweight for those years. My head must be stuck in the 80s.
Nonetheless, they still had terrible handling. I wouldn't have felt safe in them, unless they were able to stop on a dime.
Like the Buick Roadmaster? That was built on the Chevrolet Caprice platform, obviously a really big sedan. Last built in 1996.
"Full sized" sedans built since the mid-1990s, with the exception of the Crown Victoria, are the size and weight of what were formerly in the mid-sized class.
The Buicks I had/have all had good handling. I had a 1990 Buick Century as well, and that almost bordered on being a compact.
Might have been thinking of the Roadmaster, yes. I drive a Golf, so even the Mk5 Century seems huge to me.
Quote from: formulanone on January 10, 2018, 05:31:48 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 10, 2018, 03:54:46 PM
Quote from: formulanone on January 10, 2018, 03:50:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 10, 2018, 03:36:10 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 10, 2018, 02:34:48 PM
ABS definitely helps a lot, IMHO. I have had it in these cars -- 1994 Buick LeSabre, 2003 Buick LeSabre, 2016 Buick LaCrosse.
Surprised any of those cars would have ABS. They weigh enough to plow through just about anything unlucky enough to be in their way.
Nearly every car made in the past 5 years has ABS (it's been a US federal requirement since late-2013), and I'd wager that most mid-priced vehicles in the past 20 years had it, too.
For the record...
2018 — 1994 > 20
[/nitpick]
No nitpick, anti-lock. :P
GM and Mercedes-Benz had offered it in some limited capacity since before we'd been born, but that doesn't necessarily make something commonplace.
Lincoln actually offered it as an option as far back as the late 60s/early 70s but it didn't catch on, and was discontinued by the mid-to-late 70s. Such would return as an option on some models for the 1985 model year.
Quote from: texaskdog on January 10, 2018, 08:43:17 PM
Anti-lock brakes suck. So I'm trying to stop and I can't because my brakes don't let me.
And that's why a lot of us still want locking breaks. Sure its less stress on the tires but you stop much further as a tradeoff. I have my preference in that case.
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on January 11, 2018, 11:53:01 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on January 10, 2018, 08:43:17 PM
Anti-lock brakes suck. So I'm trying to stop and I can't because my brakes don't let me.
And that's why a lot of us still want locking breaks. Sure its less stress on the tires but you stop much further as a tradeoff. I have my preference in that case.
In most cases, moving wheel (properly functioning ABS equipped car) will stop faster and in shorter range than locked wheel - despite locked wheel may sound as more efficient (pun intended)
There are some rare cases when locked wheel is better (my example of snow choke above), but those are not that common, and looks like electronics now knows how to handle more challenging situations.
I heard some stories about ABS sensors going bad without controller realizing that - in those cases things do get ugly. But those seem to be very very infrequent.
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on January 11, 2018, 11:53:01 AMAnd that's why a lot of us still want locking brakes. Sure its less stress on the tires but you stop much further as a tradeoff. I have my preference in that case.
ABS is unquestionably superior on dry and wet roads--it is with winter precipitation that the picture gets cloudy.
If you really want no ABS on a car that is equipped with ABS, you can simply disconnect the motor pack. The underlying reality is that driving for which ABS routinely makes a difference is high-risk driving.
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 11, 2018, 01:41:06 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on January 11, 2018, 11:53:01 AMAnd that's why a lot of us still want locking brakes. Sure its less stress on the tires but you stop much further as a tradeoff. I have my preference in that case.
ABS is unquestionably superior on dry and wet roads--it is with winter precipitation that the picture gets cloudy.
If you really want no ABS on a car that is equipped with ABS, you can simply disconnect the motor pack. The underlying reality is that driving for which ABS routinely makes a difference is high-risk driving.
Such as being able to drive safely on snowy roadways rather than not being able to? Granted, that judgment can be somewhat subjective.
Traction control (2-wheel drive) systems are usually activated by the ABS system on the driving axle's wheels. It can make a huge difference for starting from a stopped position. No ABS means no traction control.
In many areas the main roads are well plowed within a day, but the local roads may take several days or more. Anything that can help negotiate the small percentage of local roads on a trip, so that you can get to the main roads, is welcome.
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 11, 2018, 01:41:06 PM
If you really want no ABS on a car that is equipped with ABS, you can simply disconnect the motor pack.
I just pulled the ABS fuse in that situation. Easily reversible, quick, no skills required.
Quote from: Beltway on January 11, 2018, 02:17:14 PMSuch as being able to drive safely on snowy roadways rather than not being able to? Granted, that judgment can be somewhat subjective.
Traction control (2-wheel drive) systems are usually activated by the ABS system on the driving axle's wheels. It can make a huge difference for starting from a stopped position. No ABS means no traction control.
In many areas the main roads are well plowed within a day, but the local roads may take several days or more. Anything that can help negotiate the small percentage of local roads on a trip, so that you can get to the main roads, is welcome.
What I mean is that when the ABS actuates, it indicates the car is right at the edge of its performance envelope for the given conditions. The same is also true of traction control.
It is more consistent with a layered approach to safety that includes avoidance of risk compensation to treat ABS as an added resource for accident prevention, rather than as a device for expanding mobility under poor driving conditions. I personally try to drive well within the performance envelope, keeping in mind that ice can cut tire/pavement friction by a factor of ten. With the exception of deliberate tests, generally by jumping on the brakes on a snow- or ice-coated side street, I can count on the fingers of one hand the times I have had the ABS actuate.
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 11, 2018, 03:39:04 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 11, 2018, 02:17:14 PMSuch as being able to drive safely on snowy roadways rather than not being able to? Granted, that judgment can be somewhat subjective.
Traction control (2-wheel drive) systems are usually activated by the ABS system on the driving axle's wheels. It can make a huge difference for starting from a stopped position. No ABS means no traction control.
In many areas the main roads are well plowed within a day, but the local roads may take several days or more. Anything that can help negotiate the small percentage of local roads on a trip, so that you can get to the main roads, is welcome.
What I mean is that when the ABS actuates, it indicates the car is right at the edge of its performance envelope for the given conditions. The same is also true of traction control.
It is more consistent with a layered approach to safety that includes avoidance of risk compensation to treat ABS as an added resource for accident prevention, rather than as a device for expanding mobility under poor driving conditions. I personally try to drive well within the performance envelope, keeping in mind that ice can cut tire/pavement friction by a factor of ten. With the exception of deliberate tests, generally by jumping on the brakes on a snow- or ice-coated side street, I can count on the fingers of one hand the times I have had the ABS actuate.
For me ABS helps me negotiate the 1/2 mile of neighborhood streets that may take several days to get plowed properly, and get to the main thoroughfares that are generally in decent shape within a day.
The traction control helps me get out of my driveway which has about 2% downgrade from the street, and to get up a hill on one of the local streets.
This obviously depends on how slippery these roads are at the time, but winter driving can often involve a small percentage of a trip's roads that have problems, when the vast percentage of a trip's roads may be decent.
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 11, 2018, 01:41:06 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on January 11, 2018, 11:53:01 AMAnd that's why a lot of us still want locking brakes. Sure its less stress on the tires but you stop much further as a tradeoff. I have my preference in that case.
ABS is unquestionably superior on dry and wet roads--it is with winter precipitation that the picture gets cloudy.
If you really want no ABS on a car that is equipped with ABS, you can simply disconnect the motor pack. The underlying reality is that driving for which ABS routinely makes a difference is high-risk driving.
Then maybe a better long-term solution is to tighten road test requirements for licensing. Stop letting people who can't demonstrate proper evasive braking techniques get licensed.
Quote from: Beltway on January 11, 2018, 06:08:24 PMFor me ABS helps me negotiate the 1/2 mile of neighborhood streets that may take several days to get plowed properly, and get to the main thoroughfares that are generally in decent shape within a day.
The traction control helps me get out of my driveway which has about 2% downgrade from the street, and to get up a hill on one of the local streets.
I live in Wichita, where subdivision roads are never plowed, though plowing, salting, and sanding of arterials begins immediately and continues until they are cleared. The nearest arterials are a quarter-mile away in any direction.
The majority of my ABS and traction control actuations have indeed been on subdivision roads, but neither has noticeably reduced the likelihood that I get stuck. The north end of my street tends to develop drifts when there is a lot of snow on the ground and I have gotten stuck there both in an old RWD car with no ABS or traction control and in a much newer FWD car with both ABS and stability control. The last time this happened, about seven years ago, I actually walked up with a snow shovel and tried to blade off enough snow within the intersection throat to reduce the likelihood of vehicles getting stuck.
Admittedly, though, these are all level roads, and intersection throats tend to be problematic even when there is no drifting, because the city's usual approach toward addressing drainage without nearby storm drain inlets is to run the street crossfall off into a concrete slab that is essentially a very shallow basin (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7115325,-97.3944667,3a,75y,49.31h,73.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHwl7a3cZikO3ulCQ-G-hHQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). When temperatures are above freezing, traffic passing by simply splashes water out and it evaporates over time, but in cold weather this mechanism doesn't work unless the albedo is sufficiently reduced that the sun will melt snow or ice by heating the pavement underneath.
Quote from: Beltway on January 11, 2018, 06:08:24 PMThis obviously depends on how slippery these roads are at the time, but winter driving can often involve a small percentage of a trip's roads that have problems, when the vast percentage of a trip's roads may be decent.
The main reason I like having ABS is an incident that happened many years ago when I was trying to find a business alongside an arterial that had a five-lane curb-and-gutter section with center turn lane and 40 limit. This was in winter, but the weather was sunny and the roads were clear and dry. I knew the business was on the left, so my eyes were locked in a side-of-the-road search pattern and I failed to see a stopped car in front of me until it was almost too late. I jumped on the brakes, ABS deployed, and the pedal kept pulsating until I just barely tapped the back bumper of the car in front. Neither vehicle was left with any noticeable marks. If the car I was then driving had not had ABS, stopping distance would have been longer, and although I don't think any person in either car would have been injured, both cars would assuredly have needed body work.
Getting stuck and braking are separate issues in my thinking. Getting stuck is a matter of not being able to maintain speed, whereas ABS only helps to diminish your speed. Rule #1 of winter driving is to never come to a complete stop.
Of course, if you get into an accident because you couldn't stop in time, then I suppose that could qualify as getting stuck...
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2018, 01:30:06 PMGetting stuck and braking are separate issues in my thinking. Getting stuck is a matter of not being able to maintain speed, whereas ABS only helps to diminish your speed. Rule #1 of winter driving is to never come to a complete stop.
Yes, they are separate issues, and this is part of the reason I don't regard ABS or traction control as panaceas for winter driving. On the other hand, I would not consider disabling either, as many people in the snowbelt do. I consider that in the absence of risk compensation, ABS confers an added layer of safety, and while traction control will not free a stuck car, it will help protect the differential from damage. Having one drive wheel spin while the other stays fixed is a recipe for a grenading differential pin.
The snowbelt is a different country altogether: one with separate sets of winter wheels, "winter beaters," engine block heaters, dipstick heaters, battery warmers, battery maintainers, synthetic oil and ATF chosen for the lowest pour points available, rusted brake lines, rusted engine cradles, aftermarket underbody treatments, and a desperate lust for salvaged underbody parts from Arizona.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2018, 01:30:06 PM
Getting stuck and braking are separate issues in my thinking. Getting stuck is a matter of not being able to maintain speed, whereas ABS only helps to diminish your speed. Rule #1 of winter driving is to never come to a complete stop.
That is a goal, and you can plan ahead for the next quarter mile or so as you drive, but I can't always come to a complete stop, such as at a traffic light, sometimes you have to come to a complete stop. Likewise when you are parked you are by definition stopped, and that is where traction control can be helpful.
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 12, 2018, 12:13:47 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 11, 2018, 06:08:24 PMFor me ABS helps me negotiate the 1/2 mile of neighborhood streets that may take several days to get plowed properly, and get to the main thoroughfares that are generally in decent shape within a day.
The traction control helps me get out of my driveway which has about 2% downgrade from the street, and to get up a hill on one of the local streets.
I live in Wichita, where subdivision roads are never plowed, though plowing, salting, and sanding of arterials begins immediately and continues until they are cleared. The nearest arterials are a quarter-mile away in any direction.
That is not good at all. Even on flat grades streets become impassible beyond a certain depth of snow, and if not plowed and salted can turn to ice which causes even more problems.
Quote from: Beltway on January 17, 2018, 01:38:12 PMThat is not good at all. Even on flat grades streets become impassible beyond a certain depth of snow, and if not plowed and salted can turn to ice which causes even more problems.
We are expected to pull on our big boy pants and deal with it, so that the mill levy can remain at the same level it has been since 1994. And actually the tax take is now capped in nominal terms (meaning a vote is required to raise it, except for public safety and certain other exempt purposes), which translates to a slightly but steadily decreasing millage.
Some of the outlying cities, such as Bel Aire, do plow subdivision roads.
Quote from: Beltway on January 17, 2018, 01:38:12 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 12, 2018, 12:13:47 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 11, 2018, 06:08:24 PMFor me ABS helps me negotiate the 1/2 mile of neighborhood streets that may take several days to get plowed properly, and get to the main thoroughfares that are generally in decent shape within a day.
The traction control helps me get out of my driveway which has about 2% downgrade from the street, and to get up a hill on one of the local streets.
I live in Wichita, where subdivision roads are never plowed, though plowing, salting, and sanding of arterials begins immediately and continues until they are cleared. The nearest arterials are a quarter-mile away in any direction.
That is not good at all. Even on flat grades streets become impassible beyond a certain depth of snow, and if not plowed and salted can turn to ice which causes even more problems.
I don't think I've seen more than a foot of snow on the ground here at any one time.
Quote from: kphoger on January 17, 2018, 02:03:42 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 17, 2018, 01:38:12 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 12, 2018, 12:13:47 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 11, 2018, 06:08:24 PMFor me ABS helps me negotiate the 1/2 mile of neighborhood streets that may take several days to get plowed properly, and get to the main thoroughfares that are generally in decent shape within a day.
The traction control helps me get out of my driveway which has about 2% downgrade from the street, and to get up a hill on one of the local streets.
I live in Wichita, where subdivision roads are never plowed, though plowing, salting, and sanding of arterials begins immediately and continues until they are cleared. The nearest arterials are a quarter-mile away in any direction.
That is not good at all. Even on flat grades streets become impassible beyond a certain depth of snow, and if not plowed and salted can turn to ice which causes even more problems.
I don't think I've seen more than a foot of snow on the ground here at any one time.
Wichita, KS? They don't get more snow than central VA? We had a 17-inch storm last year. There have been a number of storms in the 8 to 12 inch range in the last 20 years, and several that were 15 inches or more.
Quote from: Beltway on January 17, 2018, 02:38:51 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 17, 2018, 02:03:42 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 17, 2018, 01:38:12 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 12, 2018, 12:13:47 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 11, 2018, 06:08:24 PMFor me ABS helps me negotiate the 1/2 mile of neighborhood streets that may take several days to get plowed properly, and get to the main thoroughfares that are generally in decent shape within a day.
The traction control helps me get out of my driveway which has about 2% downgrade from the street, and to get up a hill on one of the local streets.
I live in Wichita, where subdivision roads are never plowed, though plowing, salting, and sanding of arterials begins immediately and continues until they are cleared. The nearest arterials are a quarter-mile away in any direction.
That is not good at all. Even on flat grades streets become impassible beyond a certain depth of snow, and if not plowed and salted can turn to ice which causes even more problems.
I don't think I've seen more than a foot of snow on the ground here at any one time.
Wichita, KS? They don't get more snow than central VA? We had a 17-inch storm last year. There have been a number of storms in the 8 to 12 inch range in the last 20 years, and several that were 15 inches or more.
I'm not saying it doesn't
ever happen. I've only lived here for ten years. But, if it does happen, it's exceedingly rare. Now that I think about it, there might have been 15" on the ground three years ago, but that was definitely the worst I'd ever seen. I managed to get to work that day, although I was admittedly 45 minutes late because I-135 shut down while I was on it and I had to find a detour. But Wichita, by and large, is pretty flat, so getting out of your neighborhood means you only have to plow through a few blocks of snow before making it out onto the main road. Having to do so up and down hills isn't the norm here. Ice is more our problem than snow is.
Snow here is definitely hit or miss. You say you got a 17-inch storm last year? It didn't snow in Wichita
at all in 2017.
Yes, Wichita. I think the last time we had a foot of accumulation, if ever, was in the late 1970's. We did have very heavy snow in the winter of 2012-2013, including one storm that dropped about six inches in Wichita proper (I shoveled twice within a few hours, to keep lifts to three inches maximum) and much more in parts of central Kansas that are within an hour's drive. Highways were closed, the National Guard was deployed, etc.
In terms of mobility within my subdivision, the winter of 2010-2011 was worse, because the snow was accompanied by heavy wind and the prevailing winds tend to deposit drifts across the tee intersections at either end of my street. In February 2011 my mother, who was recovering from two major surgeries followed by a bout of severe sepsis, had to be taken to the hospital by ambulance when she got severely dehydrated due to electrolyte imbalance. It had just snowed, and although the driveway was clear, EMS ended up dispatching two ambulances as well as an aid car because the first ambulance got stuck in a drift at the north end of our street. I later got stuck in the same drift and that is when I took a shovel and tried to clear away enough of the dirty snow so that vehicles would have at least a fighting chance of not getting stuck while slowing down to negotiate the turn.
Quote from: kphoger on January 17, 2018, 03:01:49 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 17, 2018, 02:38:51 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 17, 2018, 02:03:42 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 17, 2018, 01:38:12 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 12, 2018, 12:13:47 PM
Quote from: Beltway on January 11, 2018, 06:08:24 PMFor me ABS helps me negotiate the 1/2 mile of neighborhood streets that may take several days to get plowed properly, and get to the main thoroughfares that are generally in decent shape within a day.
The traction control helps me get out of my driveway which has about 2% downgrade from the street, and to get up a hill on one of the local streets.
I live in Wichita, where subdivision roads are never plowed, though plowing, salting, and sanding of arterials begins immediately and continues until they are cleared. The nearest arterials are a quarter-mile away in any direction.
That is not good at all. Even on flat grades streets become impassible beyond a certain depth of snow, and if not plowed and salted can turn to ice which causes even more problems.
I don't think I've seen more than a foot of snow on the ground here at any one time.
Wichita, KS? They don't get more snow than central VA? We had a 17-inch storm last year. There have been a number of storms in the 8 to 12 inch range in the last 20 years, and several that were 15 inches or more.
I'm not saying it doesn't ever happen. I've only lived here for ten years. But, if it does happen, it's exceedingly rare. Now that I think about it, there might have been 15" on the ground three years ago, but that was definitely the worst I'd ever seen. I managed to get to work that day, although I was admittedly 45 minutes late because I-135 shut down while I was on it and I had to find a detour. But Wichita, by and large, is pretty flat, so getting out of your neighborhood means you only have to plow through a few blocks of snow before making it out onto the main road. Having to do so up and down hills isn't the norm here. Ice is more our problem than snow is.
Snow here is definitely hit or miss. You say you got a 17-inch storm last year? It didn't snow in Wichita at all in 2017.
The average annual snowfall here is not that much, there have been some years with nothing. My experience with sedans is that beyond 6 or 7 inches even on a flat grade things can get dicey, plus many streets are barely wide enough to handle that much snow as well as two vehicles meeting oncoming.
Quote from: kphoger on January 17, 2018, 03:01:49 PM
Now that I think about it, there might have been 15" on the ground three years ago, but that was definitely the worst I'd ever seen.
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 17, 2018, 03:03:47 PM
We did have very heavy snow in the winter of 2012-2013, including one storm that dropped about six inches in Wichita proper (I shoveled twice within a few hours, to keep lifts to three inches maximum) and much more in parts of central Kansas that are within an hour's drive. Highways were closed, the National Guard was deployed, etc.
That might be the one I remember, not three years ago. I don't keep years straight in my head very well. As I recall, we got a 12-inch snowfall followed the next day or two by a 3-inch snowfall. I made it to work OK in our minivan (heavy front wheel drive), but it took about a week for all the ice to melt off the undercarriage from where it had scraped along the snow the whole way to work.
I have gone back through my old forum posts and I see that the snowstorm we are thinking of began at 3 AM on February 20, 2013. The initial fall was six inches at a rate of two inches per hour, which badly strained state- and city-owned snow clearance assets. Eventually we had fourteen inches, which was deemed the second heaviest on record, just behind a fifteen-incher on January 17-18, 1962.
In a number of forum posts I talked about having to do lifts of more than three inches on various parts of the driveway, especially the apron, which had accumulated nine inches by the time I could get to it. I reported having spoil heaps as high as my chin and having to lift shovelfuls quite high so I could tip them behind the nearest heap, which was necessary to avoid having the snow avalanche back down onto the cleared surface. I also established that three inches is the maximum for shoveling in windrows; with deeper lifts you are looking at pilot trenches and a job that takes longer per inch cleared (e.g., six inches takes a lot longer than twice the time for three inches). When the sun comes out, a thin but cohesive ice layer forms on top of powdered snow, which results in slabbing and chunking when you attempt to shovel. I had to deal with this, as well as cutting through two spoil heaps, when I finally got to the nine-inch accumulation on the sidewalks.
The road network was essentially unusable for about 36 hours and at our local supermarket we noticed shortages attributable to late or cancelled deliveries, e.g. no house-brand 1% milk.
Besides the snowstorm that began on February 20, there was a smaller follow-up storm on February 25 that was dispatched pretty quickly but still drove the February snowfall accumulation to a record-setting 21.5 inches. In the vicinity of Hutchinson, snowfall that February totaled 40 inches, forcing extended road closures and National Guard deployments.
In Wichita, the two February snowstorms were followed several days later by an extended thaw. It took 17 days from the first snowflake to disappearance of the last patch of packed dirty snow in the spoil heaps on the lawn.
↑ Yep, that's the one. I found the conversation.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 21, 2013, 08:18:48 PM
three-hour period starting at 3 AM when snow was falling at a rate of two inches an hour.
Quote from: kphoger on February 21, 2013, 12:39:17 PM
By 9:00 this morning, our crew in Kansas City already had four stuck work trucks and one wrecked, and the rest of their work for the day has all been rescheduled.
The owner of the company told me, "˜You did great, getting here in that minivan.' Are you kidding? Other than ground clearance issues (my battery connections got wet two blocks from my house), I'd much rather have a heavy front-wheel drive minivan than some RWD pickup in this stuff. All in all, I really didn't worry about getting stuck except when I was behind vehicles that were getting stuck.
Funny how I now drive a rear-wheel-drive vehicle. Granted, it has 4WD, but I keep forgetting I need to use that in winter weather. I'm still used to the handling I had in the van.
↓ Here are the pictures I took on the canal route (before they closed it) on my way to work, that no longer display because Photobucket is a brat.
(https://i.imgur.com/hWjasQ8.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/GYaykf1.png)
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on January 11, 2018, 11:53:01 AMAnd that's why a lot of us still want locking breaks. Sure its less stress on the tires but you stop much further as a tradeoff. I have my preference in that case.
You'll kill someone someday, if not yourself.
Quote from: Duke87 on January 05, 2018, 09:00:12 PM
Car insurance companies will give you a lower rate to insure a car with anti-lock brakes. That is a pretty definitive assessment that they are worthwhile - insurance companies know what reduces their likelihood of having a claim to pay out, and they know it well.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 06, 2018, 12:19:22 AM
I'd imagine that discount's years are numbered. The vast majority of cars sold in the US in the 21st century have had ABS, and the last car that didn't have it as a standard feature (the JB Kia Rio) has long since been replaced. Don't get me wrong, it's a great feature. But I'm not sure it's necessary to incentivise it anymore.
Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2018, 02:32:30 PM
If you go to insure an antique car without ABS, should you pay the same rate as if it had ABS? If not, then there's a reason to incentivise ABS.
Quote from: kalvado on January 08, 2018, 03:47:11 PM
You can apply same logic to seatbelts, which were not present in Ford-T. Where is my seatbelt discount?
Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2018, 03:57:56 PM
Are you certain it doesn't cost extra to insure a car without seat belts?
Quote from: corco on January 08, 2018, 04:33:55 PM
Pretty sure I get a discount on my insurance because I state I use a seatbelt every time I drive. If my car didn't have seatbelts, I wouldn't be able to claim that discount, so, yeah, it still exists.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 08, 2018, 05:36:36 PM
To make it clear, I never said an ABS discount didn't exist. I just said that I thought it would eventually be on its way out, likely to be replaced by a (not necessarily obvious on your statement) penalty for driving without ABS.
Insurance corporations still need to make money. They aren't going to make money by endlessly incentivising every safety feature. They will at first, because they know it's good PR, but once they become standard features, they'll eventually just start to penalise those who don't have the feature.
Well, here we are, six years later. My new daily driver did not come equipped with ABS. When we added the car to our insurance policy, one of the questions on the form asked if it has ABS or not. I assume it affected our rate.
I wonder how good of a check they have on it through the VIN.