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Road Rage

Started by ParrDa, September 14, 2017, 09:05:15 PM

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Bruce

I seem to cause road rage by just being a pedestrian/bicyclist doing legal things.

Walk on a marked (or unmarked), un-signalized crosswalk with traffic clear? I get to listen to distant honking as drivers fail to slow down on their approach. Turns out they don't like it when you walk at a brisk pace (they want sprinters).

Bicycling in the middle of a lane with a sharrow under me? People will pass double yellows to get around me (only to end up stopped at the traffic light up ahead...with me catching up in time).


inkyatari

Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 03:05:22 PM
I seem to cause road rage by just being a pedestrian/bicyclist doing legal things.

Walk on a marked (or unmarked), un-signalized crosswalk with traffic clear? I get to listen to distant honking as drivers fail to slow down on their approach. Turns out they don't like it when you walk at a brisk pace (they want sprinters).

Bicycling in the middle of a lane with a sharrow under me? People will pass double yellows to get around me (only to end up stopped at the traffic light up ahead...with me catching up in time).

Don't even get me started...
I'm never wrong, just wildly inaccurate.

wanderer2575

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 15, 2017, 01:49:29 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 15, 2017, 08:52:52 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 15, 2017, 08:20:40 AM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on September 14, 2017, 09:24:28 PM
Was almost a victim of road rage yesterday myself.  Was minding my business taking a left off an exit ramp (1 left and 1 right lane) onto a two lane road, and an idiot in a Mercedes behind me literally tried to pass me on the left by crossing over the double yellow line on the overpass (I thought maybe he was rushing to take a left to get back on the highway the other way, but he wasn't).  When he couldn't, he was almost driving alongside of me, then when opposing traffic came on, he started tailgating me at a distance that would make a NASCAR driver cringe.  Two more times he tried to pass on the double yellow, but he couldn't because of traffic.  I must've tapped and slammed on my brakes about 10 times, then slowed down to about 30. Finally, I took a left and flip him off (something I never do).  This guy had to be on meth or have just stolen the car.  Wish I got his plate because I would have called the PD because this guy was endangering people.   

At that point you become part of the problem, because not only are you brake-checking that driver, everyone else behind you two are subject to your braking and unnecessary slowing.

Most people are only concerned with the car behind them.  They don't see the line of traffic behind that car.  I see this on the highway all the time - someone going the speed limit or slower is in the left lane. When they finally get over, they glare at the car that was behind them.  They ignore the next 10 cars that are able to finally pass as well, even though that single driver was responsible for holding up the entire lane's worth of traffic.

Bullstuff.  I don't advocate left-lane squatting or pretending you're the highway patrol, but bottom line is there are a lot more vehicles than there are lanes and you're going to be behind someone.  That someone's not going fast enough for your taste, you chill out and deal with it.  Everyone should be going as fast as what the fastest driver wants?  Bullstuff.  That's like saying the guy at the supermarket checkout shouldn't be buying so much stuff and holding things up when there's a line of people behind him.

I'm not out for vengeance or teaching a lesson; I just want a reasonable distance between vehicles.  If you're following me too closely for the speed, I will adjust accordingly.  Have you ever been rear-ended because you had to suddenly hit the brakes and the car behind you was following too closely to do the same?  I have.  If you've not had the pleasure, I suggest you give it a whirl.  Then, if you're still okay with someone tailgating you, I'll listen to your argument.

Completely irrelevant and completely bypassing the point.

You can't control the person behind you.  You go at the pace you're comfortable with, assuming you're obeying the rules of the road.  If you're doing the speed limit, fine.  Once you start tapping on the brakes though, you become the problem.  The guy isn't going to back off that much, and will continue to tailgate, as this person did at least 10 times.  It is absolutely a form of road rage.  And even worse, because once you get that accordion going of people braking because the lead car slowed down unnecessarily, accidents can easily occur many cars back.  Obviously you aren't aware of it...or care...but even though you weren't directly responsible, you indirectly put in motion the cause of the accident.

Being that NASCAR drivers drive within inches, and the brake checking went on a multiple number of times, it probably actually wasn't that close to him.  Closer than he would've liked, but not so close as to cause an accident.

As for being rear ended - yes, 9 days before my wedding.  Have you ever enjoyed your honeymoon by talking to insurance adjustors and repair shops?  No?  Then F off.

Ooooh, profanity.  Very mature response.  Very...  road rage-ish.  Hmmm...

jakeroot

Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 03:05:22 PM
I seem to cause road rage by just being a pedestrian/bicyclist doing legal things.

I'll be able to tell my kids how horribly my, and previous, generation(s) drove around bikes and pedestrians. I suppose it's all a matter of poor driver education. In time, I suspect drivers will improve.

Brandon

Quote from: Bruce link=topic=21106.msg2259371#msg2259371

Bicycling in the middle of a lane with a sharrow under me? People will pass double yellows to get around me (only to end up stopped at the traffic light up ahead...with me catching up in time).

Um, passing vehicles like bicycles and horse drawn carriages is perfectly legal in quite a few jurisdictions.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

Bruce

Quote from: Brandon on September 17, 2017, 05:04:42 PM
Quote from: Bruce link=topic=21106.msg2259371#msg2259371

Bicycling in the middle of a lane with a sharrow under me? People will pass double yellows to get around me (only to end up stopped at the traffic light up ahead...with me catching up in time).

Um, passing vehicles like bicycles and horse drawn carriages is perfectly legal in quite a few jurisdictions.

You have to give a fair bit of space (3 feet or more) and not cross double yellows into oncoming traffic. I've come close to dying several times because people don't know how close they pass (or don't care).

Jardine

Quote from: hbelkins on September 15, 2017, 01:13:51 PM
Regarding brake checking, I'd love to rig up something that would make my brake lights illuminate without me having to hit the brake.

Regarding prosecutions, I vaguely remember a couple of prosecutions arising out of road rage incidents merely because someone took out a gun and displayed it or placed it on the dash of their vehicle and they did NOT point the gun at anyone.

One of my vehicles I wired a switch to the backup lights, and I can turn them on with out engaging reverse.

Seems to work quite well on tailgaters.

If it doesn't, I don't brake check, but I do take my foot off the gas sometimes and see how slow they will go without passing.

Roadgeekteen

God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

jakeroot

Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 06:00:42 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 17, 2017, 05:04:42 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 03:05:22 PM

Bicycling in the middle of a lane with a sharrow under me? People will pass double yellows to get around me (only to end up stopped at the traffic light up ahead...with me catching up in time).

Um, passing vehicles like bicycles and horse drawn carriages is perfectly legal in quite a few jurisdictions.

You have to give a fair bit of space (3 feet or more) and not cross double yellows into oncoming traffic. I've come close to dying several times because people don't know how close they pass (or don't care).

Technically, WSDOT allows passing over double yellows if there's an obstruction (RCW 46.61.100, exception provided in RCW 46.61.130). An "obstruction" is not defined, but a slow moving or stopped vehicle (bus, trash truck, heavily-ladened semi going up-hill, cyclists in certain instance) might qualify. I think "obstruction" was meant to mean "hole in road" or something like that, but I see people in Seattle pass over double yellows for exactly those reasons all the time.

Jardine

Surprise brake check without the brakelights:

downshift your automatic transmission

:sombrero:

Bruce

Quote from: jakeroot on September 17, 2017, 08:26:36 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 06:00:42 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 17, 2017, 05:04:42 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 03:05:22 PM

Bicycling in the middle of a lane with a sharrow under me? People will pass double yellows to get around me (only to end up stopped at the traffic light up ahead...with me catching up in time).

Um, passing vehicles like bicycles and horse drawn carriages is perfectly legal in quite a few jurisdictions.

You have to give a fair bit of space (3 feet or more) and not cross double yellows into oncoming traffic. I've come close to dying several times because people don't know how close they pass (or don't care).

Technically, WSDOT allows passing over double yellows if there's an obstruction (RCW 46.61.100, exception provided in RCW 46.61.130). An "obstruction" is not defined, but a slow moving or stopped vehicle (bus, trash truck, heavily-ladened semi going up-hill, cyclists in certain instance) might qualify. I think "obstruction" was meant to mean "hole in road" or something like that, but I see people in Seattle pass over double yellows for exactly those reasons all the time.

Buses don't qualify, transit or school, so I imagine bikes should be treated similarly in an urban environment. Now if only SPD gave a shit about enforcing various laws, they'd make a lot of money.

jakeroot

#36
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 10:49:13 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 17, 2017, 08:26:36 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 06:00:42 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 17, 2017, 05:04:42 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 03:05:22 PM

Bicycling in the middle of a lane with a sharrow under me? People will pass double yellows to get around me (only to end up stopped at the traffic light up ahead...with me catching up in time).

Um, passing vehicles like bicycles and horse drawn carriages is perfectly legal in quite a few jurisdictions.

You have to give a fair bit of space (3 feet or more) and not cross double yellows into oncoming traffic. I've come close to dying several times because people don't know how close they pass (or don't care).

Technically, WSDOT allows passing over double yellows if there's an obstruction (RCW 46.61.100, exception provided in RCW 46.61.130). An "obstruction" is not defined, but a slow moving or stopped vehicle (bus, trash truck, heavily-ladened semi going up-hill, cyclists in certain instance) might qualify. I think "obstruction" was meant to mean "hole in road" or something like that, but I see people in Seattle pass over double yellows for exactly those reasons all the time.

Buses don't qualify, transit or school, so I imagine bikes should be treated similarly in an urban environment. Now if only SPD gave a shit about enforcing various laws, they'd make a lot of money.

Do we know that for sure? I would have no problem passing a stopped metro bus, regardless of the center line, and in my experience, neither would/do most people. It simply doesn't make sense to wait behind a metro bus that's just camped out in the middle of the road. I've even seen, on occasion, oncoming traffic shift over to the right to accommodate traffic that is overtaking the bus. That's cooperation, if I've ever seen it.

The reason that bikes are often grouped in with metro buses (school buses are totally different, of course) is because they have about the same average speed (taking into account the bus having to stop every dozen-ish blocks). It's really hard to resist overtaking a cyclist. They are doing nothing wrong, of course. But, with adaptive signals nowadays, you're bound to a miss a light if you let too much of a gap develop. Plus, what cyclist wants a car on their ass for blocks on end? I'd rather cars go around me. Just in case a driver gets on their phone, and accidentally bumps into me.

FWIW, I think not allowing passing over double yellow when passing a cyclist contributes to those close passes that often scare cyclists. Allowing passing over a double yellow would allow drivers to use the oncoming lane, giving the cyclist plenty of room. I tend to follow the UK Highway Code's guidance on passing cyclists (rule 163), which suggests passing a cyclist at the same distance you would a car. The example image is exactly how I pass a cyclist. I get into the oncoming lane, pass, and merge back over. I've never had a cyclist get angry with me. In fact, many wave "thanks" for granting them so much space (since people often pass within just a few feet).

EDIT: I'd like to point out that the UK permits overtaking upon a double-white (their version of double-yellow) when there is a stationary vehicle in front of you, or when passing a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (or less). See here: https://goo.gl/7uKHe2

jakeroot

Quote from: Jardine on September 17, 2017, 09:15:34 PM
Surprise brake check without the brakelights:

downshift your automatic transmission

Actually, this is a fact of life for many drivers of manual gearboxes. I often downshift to brake, especially when approaching a signal from a distance. This means that my brake lights don't actually come on until I'm a dozen car-lengths back from the stop line, and I need my actual brakes to bring me to a halt. In heavy (but quick-moving) traffic, I often change gears to slow down, rather than constantly tapping my brakes. In some instances, this gives the impression that I'm brake-checking without braking, but that's never my intent (I don't brake check, ever).

jakeroot

Quote from: ParrDa on September 17, 2017, 08:54:34 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 16, 2017, 10:39:44 PM
Quote from: ParrDa on September 16, 2017, 06:35:05 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 16, 2017, 03:36:36 PM
Quote from: pumpkineater2 on September 16, 2017, 02:35:05 PM
One alternative to brake checking that I have observed on the road is activating your windshield washers....

Another alternative to brake checking is pulling off to the side and letting them by ... why do people insist on dealing with tailgaters themselves? Let them go. You (not you pumpkin) are the reason they are angry.

Well, for one, they're at fault. For two, the "slowpoke" isn't necessarily doing anything wrong. Maybe they shouldn't insist on trying to get ahead in such a rude, aggressive manner (in other words, they're the ones that are wrongly trying to take things in their own hands). If Car A really is at fault, for left lane camping, etc They have several other options, 4 way flashers being the one least disruptive to traffic flow.
Personally, instead of riding on someone's bumper, I'll wait it out in the right lane until I can pass at a reasonable speed differential. Unless, of course, my place in line is in jeopardy  :D

I'm not trying to suggest that the tailgater is somehow in the right. Whatever distance they are following at, it probably wouldn't be construed as safe or reasonable by an officer. But, in order for someone to tailgate, there has to be a car to tailgate. The only safe way to diffuse the situation, lest you're a cop, is to simply get out of their way. Don't let them tailgate.

By not taking measures to get out of their way, you are contributing to the problem just as much as they are. The tailgater is creating a problem where there wasn't one (unless the car they're following is camping in the left lane), but you are creating another problem by taking no steps to rget out of their way. Be the bigger person in the situation, and just move.

If I can move over without slowing down, certainly. If I'm passing at a decent rate, which I usually am, I'm not going to let someone force me to speed up. I'm not obligated to let them slow me down, roar by, and do the same thing to the next car in line.
I'm not one that gives tailgaters much of an opportunity anyways, all I'm saying is that the car being tailgated is not adding to the problem unless they start disrupting traffic flow by braking, etc., which in not going to do unless I'm really angry.
If I'm consistently passing, I have no obligation to get out of the way. Period.

I was attempting to speak from the perspective of a driver who has the opportunity to move over, but chooses not to (instead, forcing their opinion of a safe speed on the driver behind them by brake-checking them into oblivion). If I was in your situation (nowhere to move, but already overtaking), I would signal right, and try to squeeze in to the line of cars in the number 2 lane, to let the fast driver by. I think it's very selfish to enforce your own speed limit on the road. I understand the temptation is to get angry. You feel like you're doing everything right (except speeding, you hypocrite :-D). But the only sure-fire way to diffuse the situation is to simply not let the tailgating happen. And the only way to do that is to move out of the way.

The Washington State Patrol has a website on how to deal with aggressive drivers, and those exhibiting road rage: http://www.wsp.wa.gov/traveler/roadrage.htm -- note that the only mention of brake-checking is that it's something you shouldn't do, because it can be interpreted as an act of aggression. And we wonder why this thread exists....

1995hoo

For those who say "get out of the tailgater's way," do you feel that way even when it's happening in the far right lane? People around here will tailgate in every lane at any time. I certainly feel no obligation whatsoever to speed up or move out of the way if I'm in the far right lane (I do try to move left to accommodate traffic entering the highway, but that's a separate situation.....and there are people around here who will cut over to the right into the acceleration lane to pass).
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

inkyatari

This morning a guy used the right turn lane to make a left turn, just so he can bypass the left turning traffic onto Weber Rd. off of the I-55 exit ramp. 
I'm never wrong, just wildly inaccurate.

ColossalBlocks

A guy driving a squatted F-350 followed me back to my house to "kick my ass". Needless to say, he didn't make it out without a rebar but bustin'.
I am inactive for a while now my dudes. Good associating with y'all.

US Highways: 36, 49, 61, 412.

Interstates: 22, 24, 44, 55, 57, 59, 72, 74 (West).

PHLBOS

Quote from: ColossalBlocks on September 18, 2017, 09:56:49 AM
A guy driving a squatted F-350 followed me back to my house to "kick my ass". Needless to say, he didn't make it out without a rebar but bustin'.
:confused: Not sure I follow.  Did something happen to him along the way?

Generally, if one's en route home and somebody is tailing them; road-rage or no road-rage, the last thing one should do is head to their home (why let the tail-gater know where one lives?).  It's better to take a detour & head over towards the nearest police station.  Usually the sight of seeing a tailed vehicle turn into a police station parking lot is enough to cause the tail-gater to move on.  Note: the above-scenario assumes that such is taking place along familiar territory (for the one being tailed).
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Brandon

Quote from: inkyatari on September 18, 2017, 09:02:25 AM
This morning a guy used the right turn lane to make a left turn, just so he can bypass the left turning traffic onto Weber Rd. off of the I-55 exit ramp. 

That's about par for the course here.  Chicagoland is the bad driving capital of the US.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

jakeroot

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 18, 2017, 07:35:43 AM
For those who say "get out of the tailgater's way," do you feel that way even when it's happening in the far right lane? People around here will tailgate in every lane at any time. I certainly feel no obligation whatsoever to speed up or move out of the way if I'm in the far right lane (I do try to move left to accommodate traffic entering the highway, but that's a separate situation.....and there are people around here who will cut over to the right into the acceleration lane to pass).

Unlike most people, I prefer to diffuse situations, instead of exacerbating them. In the case of someone tailgating in the right lane, I would make every attempt to get out of their way. Either by speeding up to allow them to change lanes, pulling into the shoulder, etc. If someone is tailgating in the right lane, they must be desperate. I see no reason to get in their way.

jakeroot

Quote from: ParrDa on September 18, 2017, 02:52:41 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 17, 2017, 11:47:57 PM
I was attempting to speak from the perspective of a driver who has the opportunity to move over, but chooses not to (instead, forcing their opinion of a safe speed on the driver behind them by brake-checking them into oblivion). If I was in your situation (nowhere to move, but already overtaking), I would signal right, and try to squeeze in to the line of cars in the number 2 lane, to let the fast driver by. I think it's very selfish to enforce your own speed limit on the road. I understand the temptation is to get angry. You feel like you're doing everything right (except speeding, you hypocrite :-D). But the only sure-fire way to diffuse the situation is to simply not let the tailgating happen. And the only way to do that is to move out of the way.

IMO that's where your logic, though not your intention, is flawed. Keep in mind that by being in the left lane and passing, you are forcing your speed on everyone else anyways, tailgaters or otherwise.
Moving over at all costs will likely get you some enemies in the right (or center) lane and disrupt the flow of the left lane as well, since you'll inevitably have to slow down first.
I'm all about efficiency  :D

That's kind of a straw man argument, don't you think? I was talking about a very specific scenario.

kkt

Quote from: Brandon on September 18, 2017, 10:36:51 AM
That's about par for the course here.  Chicagoland is the bad driving capital of the US.

Boston.

hotdogPi

Quote from: kkt on September 18, 2017, 04:49:57 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 18, 2017, 10:36:51 AM
That's about par for the course here.  Chicagoland is the bad driving capital of the US.

Boston.

www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=9985

Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 30, 2013, 12:46:41 PMMiami.  I have driven in every major US metropolitan area larger than, oh approximately Branson, Missouri.  so I think I have a good scientific basis for this opinion... and, trust me, folks, it's Miami.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

kkt

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2017/06/27/where-to-find-americas-worst-drivers/#7c808f784d0f

QuoteBeantown can lay claim to having the worst drivers in the nation — getting into wrecks an average of once every 3.6 years — according to Allstate's 13th annual America's Best Drivers Report.
Quote
    Boston, MA: 3.6 years between accidents.
    Baltimore, MD: 4.2 years between accidents.
    Worcester, MA: 4.3 years between accidents.
    Washington, D.C. 4.3 years between accidents.
    Springfield, MA: 5.3 years between accidents.
    Glendale, CA: 5.5 years between accidents.
    Providence, RI: 5.7 years between accidents.
    Los Angeles, CA: 5.9 years between accidents.
    New Haven, CT: 6.1 years between accidents.
    Philadelphia, PA: 6.1 years between accidents.

Years between accidents is just one possible measure, but it seems like a good one to me.

Brandon

Quote from: kkt on September 18, 2017, 05:10:23 PM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2017/06/27/where-to-find-americas-worst-drivers/#7c808f784d0f

QuoteBeantown can lay claim to having the worst drivers in the nation — getting into wrecks an average of once every 3.6 years — according to Allstate's 13th annual America's Best Drivers Report.
Quote
    Boston, MA: 3.6 years between accidents.
    Baltimore, MD: 4.2 years between accidents.
    Worcester, MA: 4.3 years between accidents.
    Washington, D.C. 4.3 years between accidents.
    Springfield, MA: 5.3 years between accidents.
    Glendale, CA: 5.5 years between accidents.
    Providence, RI: 5.7 years between accidents.
    Los Angeles, CA: 5.9 years between accidents.
    New Haven, CT: 6.1 years between accidents.
    Philadelphia, PA: 6.1 years between accidents.

Years between accidents is just one possible measure, but it seems like a good one to me.

They just don't report the minor crap here.  You'd swear they buy vehicles from the factory with dents.  Of course, there's no inspections in Illinois beyond emissions for vehicles older than 5 years of age.

I found Boston drivers to be just fine on their freeways, driving through.  Still have yet to see anyone drive on the sidewalk other than in Chicago.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg



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