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Author Topic: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?  (Read 1275 times)

sparker

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2017, 02:48:28 PM »

Look....WIDOT screwed the pooch back in '74 when they opted for I-43 for the original Milwaukee-Green Bay Interstate corridor authorized in the '68 legislation, rather than the more grid-appropriate I-47 or I-49 (which was still available back then).  FUBAR'd the entire upper Midwest "grid" in the process.  40 years later, I-41 was about the best they could do for the 2nd corridor.   

WisDOT screwed nothing.  IDOT screwed WisDOT by deciding initially not to extend I-57 north.  Put the blame where it belongs.

Historically, you are correct; the overall problem can be laid at the feet of IDOT as well as the political interests in Chicago, who refused to go along with the plan that (a) truncated I-94 in Milwaukee, (b) extended I-57 over what was previously I-94 up to Milwaukee and then north to Green Bay, including making the Calumet portion of I-94 between I-80 and I-57 a x57, and (c) commissioned I-92 over both I-294 and I-94 east across Michigan to Port Huron.  That plan was dropped when IL and Chicago complained that the renumbering of those previously established routes would cause navigation problems in the area (personally, I think it would have actually simplified things!); abetted by "co-sniveling" from Michigan.  AASHO (as it was known in those days), who had drafted the original plan, and FHWA capitulated, requiring WI to select another number.  But even though the overall situation can clearly be laid at the feet of Illinois actors, I still am of the opinion that WIDOT subsequently dropped the ball as regards the substitute numbering. 
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Roadgeekteen

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2017, 02:58:03 PM »

It would be almost as long as it's parent route.
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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2017, 06:35:19 PM »

What about I-43W and 43E?

*pops a beer*
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Flint1979

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2017, 07:53:21 PM »

It's going to be called Highway 41 no matter what so it doesn't really matter. My main beef with I-41 is why does it multiplex with I-94 south of Milwaukee? It's not like Illinois is ever going to extend it.
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KeithE4Phx

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2017, 08:17:06 PM »

It's going to be called Highway 41 no matter what so it doesn't really matter. My main beef with I-41 is why does it multiplex with I-94 south of Milwaukee? It's not like Illinois is ever going to extend it.

Because 94 and 41 split a mile or so south of the state line.  It'd be silly to sign it as US 41/I-94 for one mile in Illinois, then switch to I-41/94 in Wisconsin.
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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2017, 09:24:18 PM »

I-41 should just end at I-43, so there would be no switch.

Why was there no attempt at a compromise proposal that would extend I-57 but leave I-94 intact?  I can see why IL and MI wouldn't have gone along with the original proposal; while there is logic to the renumbering, to any state but WI, it would be a lot of money spent for "no good reason".
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sparker

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2017, 09:41:30 PM »

I-41 should just end at I-43, so there would be no switch.

Why was there no attempt at a compromise proposal that would extend I-57 but leave I-94 intact?  I can see why IL and MI wouldn't have gone along with the original proposal; while there is logic to the renumbering, to any state but WI, it would be a lot of money spent for "no good reason".

If back in 1968-70, when the numbers for the new Interstate additions were being worked out, there had been an interchange between I-57 and I-294 (or one planned at the time), it's possible I-57 could have just multiplexed with I-294 and then I-94 into Milwaukee, leaving the existing numbers intact -- but obviously that wasn't the case.  At this point it's 48-year-old water under the bridge; not much can be done about the situation today except to make do with what's available.  My guess is that IDOT balked at a triple-multiplex on the Dan Ryan and NWE, so just running it up I-94 wasn't a consideration.
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english si

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2017, 06:28:50 AM »

I think you're underestimating the number of people who don't really know the difference between route shields.
No, I highlighted that as the problem with the NC example - not that they can't tell the difference between the shields, but that they don't know what that difference is.

If people don't know the difference between route shields, it doesn't matter whether the '41 has US or I- shields, does it, given they are entirely concurrent? ;) The Fox Valley Cities can talk about the Interstate to boost commerce even if many drivers don't notice a change.
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mgk920

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2017, 10:21:47 AM »

One big reason why the 'I-41' number continues through metro Milwaukee, instead of stopping partway through (ie, ending at either the Zoo or Hale interchanges) is that for as long as those freeways had existed, people who are 'non-savvy' on the subject of the minutia of highway route numbering (including out of town big-rig truck drivers!) were getting lost transiting Milwaukee County while driving between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) - the best routing (present-day I-41 freeway) changed route numbers three times, while US 41 (on the freeway at either end) still used its old city street routing through the county.  It keeps the same recognizable route number on the entire corridor.

I believe that this is a legacy of the Milwaukee freeway system not being completed as originally planned.

This is something that I had been bugging WisDOT about since the 1980s.

Mike
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FightingIrish

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2017, 12:59:15 PM »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with I-41, aside from the various multiplexes designed to annoy road geeks and nobody else. But it works anyway. There's a method to the madness.

The I-41 designation is familiar and fits the grid. And it makes businesses in the Fox River Valley happy. Besides, everybody calls it I-41 now.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2017, 04:11:59 PM »

Nobody cares about the US 41/Interstate 41 duplex except roadgeeks, and since we're a minority, I don't see it changing EVER!
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abefroman329

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2017, 04:54:23 PM »

I-41 should just end at I-43, so there would be no switch.

Why was there no attempt at a compromise proposal that would extend I-57 but leave I-94 intact?  I can see why IL and MI wouldn't have gone along with the original proposal; while there is logic to the renumbering, to any state but WI, it would be a lot of money spent for "no good reason".

I've also read on here that they were considering extending I-55, which makes more sense, other than having to rename the portion of current I-55 from 90/94 to Lake Shore Drive to I-x55.
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2017, 04:58:49 PM »

I believe Wisconsin wanted I-55 for the corridor initially.  Illinois didn't want to compromise.
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dvferyance

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2017, 05:50:18 PM »

One big reason why the 'I-41' number continues through metro Milwaukee, instead of stopping partway through (ie, ending at either the Zoo or Hale interchanges) is that for as long as those freeways had existed, people who are 'non-savvy' on the subject of the minutia of highway route numbering (including out of town big-rig truck drivers!) were getting lost transiting Milwaukee County while driving between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) - the best routing (present-day I-41 freeway) changed route numbers three times, while US 41 (on the freeway at either end) still used its old city street routing through the county.  It keeps the same recognizable route number on the entire corridor.

I believe that this is a legacy of the Milwaukee freeway system not being completed as originally planned.

This is something that I had been bugging WisDOT about since the 1980s.

Mike
I don't see where there would be any confusion given the fact that Fond Du Lac has always been used as a control city for 894 at the Mitchell. I am not sure if Fond Du Lac is consider one of the fox cities or not but even if it's not you could just change the control city to Oshkosh or Appleton would make more sense than a 40 mile pointless duplex. By far the most illogical duplex in the country.
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mgk920

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2017, 06:44:32 PM »

One big reason why the 'I-41' number continues through metro Milwaukee, instead of stopping partway through (ie, ending at either the Zoo or Hale interchanges) is that for as long as those freeways had existed, people who are 'non-savvy' on the subject of the minutia of highway route numbering (including out of town big-rig truck drivers!) were getting lost transiting Milwaukee County while driving between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) - the best routing (present-day I-41 freeway) changed route numbers three times, while US 41 (on the freeway at either end) still used its old city street routing through the county.  It keeps the same recognizable route number on the entire corridor.

I believe that this is a legacy of the Milwaukee freeway system not being completed as originally planned.

This is something that I had been bugging WisDOT about since the 1980s.

Mike
I don't see where there would be any confusion given the fact that Fond Du Lac has always been used as a control city for 894 at the Mitchell. I am not sure if Fond Du Lac is consider one of the fox cities or not but even if it's not you could just change the control city to Oshkosh or Appleton would make more sense than a 40 mile pointless duplex. By far the most illogical duplex in the country.

I've heard numerous stories through the years of NE Wisconsin locals freaking out "Where did highway 41 go?!?!?", or following US 41 onto the streets and missing a turn, having to carefully explain the route numbering to out of state big-rig truck drivers on a CB radio, etc.

Yes, it was an ongoing problem.

Mike
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SEWIGuy

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2017, 07:26:49 PM »

One big reason why the 'I-41' number continues through metro Milwaukee, instead of stopping partway through (ie, ending at either the Zoo or Hale interchanges) is that for as long as those freeways had existed, people who are 'non-savvy' on the subject of the minutia of highway route numbering (including out of town big-rig truck drivers!) were getting lost transiting Milwaukee County while driving between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) - the best routing (present-day I-41 freeway) changed route numbers three times, while US 41 (on the freeway at either end) still used its old city street routing through the county.  It keeps the same recognizable route number on the entire corridor.

I believe that this is a legacy of the Milwaukee freeway system not being completed as originally planned.

This is something that I had been bugging WisDOT about since the 1980s.

Mike
I don't see where there would be any confusion given the fact that Fond Du Lac has always been used as a control city for 894 at the Mitchell. I am not sure if Fond Du Lac is consider one of the fox cities or not but even if it's not you could just change the control city to Oshkosh or Appleton would make more sense than a 40 mile pointless duplex. By far the most illogical duplex in the country.

I've heard numerous stories through the years of NE Wisconsin locals freaking out "Where did highway 41 go?!?!?", or following US 41 onto the streets and missing a turn, having to carefully explain the route numbering to out of state big-rig truck drivers on a CB radio, etc.

Yes, it was an ongoing problem.

Mike


When I was driving up to the Fox Valley from Milwaukee for the first time 30+ years ago, I got stuck on the streets of Milwaukee because I assumed I should just follow US-41.  It was a problem.
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triplemultiplex

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2017, 10:41:43 PM »

Quote
Why isn't I-41 just I-243?

There's already a WI 243.  :bigass:

For the record, the 3di that was floated when the upgrade was being considered was 643.


Absent Illinois being dicks, 41 was the correct number to use in my opinion.  I would have loved an original plan that brought I-55 all the way to Green Bay via what is now I-43, but shortsightedness is not a modern invention.  Working with what we've got, a number other than 41 would be obnoxiously out of place.  My preference is to quietly unsign US 41 between the WI-IL state line and Green Bay.  Because screw US highways.  :sombrero:
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silverback1065

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2017, 07:31:25 AM »

i just don't get how they thought that signing 94/90 as 57 was MORE confusing.  Isn't signing a north-south road east-west more confusing? 
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dvferyance

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2017, 11:38:23 AM »

One big reason why the 'I-41' number continues through metro Milwaukee, instead of stopping partway through (ie, ending at either the Zoo or Hale interchanges) is that for as long as those freeways had existed, people who are 'non-savvy' on the subject of the minutia of highway route numbering (including out of town big-rig truck drivers!) were getting lost transiting Milwaukee County while driving between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) - the best routing (present-day I-41 freeway) changed route numbers three times, while US 41 (on the freeway at either end) still used its old city street routing through the county.  It keeps the same recognizable route number on the entire corridor.

I believe that this is a legacy of the Milwaukee freeway system not being completed as originally planned.

This is something that I had been bugging WisDOT about since the 1980s.

Mike
I don't see where there would be any confusion given the fact that Fond Du Lac has always been used as a control city for 894 at the Mitchell. I am not sure if Fond Du Lac is consider one of the fox cities or not but even if it's not you could just change the control city to Oshkosh or Appleton would make more sense than a 40 mile pointless duplex. By far the most illogical duplex in the country.

I've heard numerous stories through the years of NE Wisconsin locals freaking out "Where did highway 41 go?!?!?", or following US 41 onto the streets and missing a turn, having to carefully explain the route numbering to out of state big-rig truck drivers on a CB radio, etc.

Yes, it was an ongoing problem.

Mike


When I was driving up to the Fox Valley from Milwaukee for the first time 30+ years ago, I got stuck on the streets of Milwaukee because I assumed I should just follow US-41.  It was a problem.
WisDOT years ago addressed that with a sign at the Stadium Interchange traffic to fox cities and Green Bay via freeway take US 45. This was to prevent any traffic going there from taking US 41 on Lisbon Ave and Appleton Ave which is now WI-175. Again I don't get why there would be any confusion. Perhaps Oshkosh or Appleton should be used at the Mitchell instead of Fond Du Lac but that is easy to change I would think if your going that way anyone would know Fond Du Lac is in that general direction. Besides with the modern technology we have don't truck driver have GPS these days?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 11:41:28 AM by dvferyance »
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Brandon

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2017, 12:08:20 PM »

One big reason why the 'I-41' number continues through metro Milwaukee, instead of stopping partway through (ie, ending at either the Zoo or Hale interchanges) is that for as long as those freeways had existed, people who are 'non-savvy' on the subject of the minutia of highway route numbering (including out of town big-rig truck drivers!) were getting lost transiting Milwaukee County while driving between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) - the best routing (present-day I-41 freeway) changed route numbers three times, while US 41 (on the freeway at either end) still used its old city street routing through the county.  It keeps the same recognizable route number on the entire corridor.

I believe that this is a legacy of the Milwaukee freeway system not being completed as originally planned.

This is something that I had been bugging WisDOT about since the 1980s.

Mike
I don't see where there would be any confusion given the fact that Fond Du Lac has always been used as a control city for 894 at the Mitchell. I am not sure if Fond Du Lac is consider one of the fox cities or not but even if it's not you could just change the control city to Oshkosh or Appleton would make more sense than a 40 mile pointless duplex. By far the most illogical duplex in the country.

I've heard numerous stories through the years of NE Wisconsin locals freaking out "Where did highway 41 go?!?!?", or following US 41 onto the streets and missing a turn, having to carefully explain the route numbering to out of state big-rig truck drivers on a CB radio, etc.

Yes, it was an ongoing problem.

Mike


When I was driving up to the Fox Valley from Milwaukee for the first time 30+ years ago, I got stuck on the streets of Milwaukee because I assumed I should just follow US-41.  It was a problem.
WisDOT years ago addressed that with a sign at the Stadium Interchange traffic to fox cities and Green Bay via freeway take US 45. This was to prevent any traffic going there from taking US 41 on Lisbon Ave and Appleton Ave which is now WI-175. Again I don't get why there would be any confusion. Perhaps Oshkosh or Appleton should be used at the Mitchell instead of Fond Du Lac but that is easy to change I would think if your going that way anyone would know Fond Du Lac is in that general direction. Besides with the modern technology we have don't truck driver have GPS these days?

You mean like the truck driver GPS that sends them to the 11 Foot 8 Inch Bridge?
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dvferyance

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2017, 04:10:57 PM »

One big reason why the 'I-41' number continues through metro Milwaukee, instead of stopping partway through (ie, ending at either the Zoo or Hale interchanges) is that for as long as those freeways had existed, people who are 'non-savvy' on the subject of the minutia of highway route numbering (including out of town big-rig truck drivers!) were getting lost transiting Milwaukee County while driving between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) - the best routing (present-day I-41 freeway) changed route numbers three times, while US 41 (on the freeway at either end) still used its old city street routing through the county.  It keeps the same recognizable route number on the entire corridor.

I believe that this is a legacy of the Milwaukee freeway system not being completed as originally planned.

This is something that I had been bugging WisDOT about since the 1980s.

Mike
I don't see where there would be any confusion given the fact that Fond Du Lac has always been used as a control city for 894 at the Mitchell. I am not sure if Fond Du Lac is consider one of the fox cities or not but even if it's not you could just change the control city to Oshkosh or Appleton would make more sense than a 40 mile pointless duplex. By far the most illogical duplex in the country.

I've heard numerous stories through the years of NE Wisconsin locals freaking out "Where did highway 41 go?!?!?", or following US 41 onto the streets and missing a turn, having to carefully explain the route numbering to out of state big-rig truck drivers on a CB radio, etc.

Yes, it was an ongoing problem.

Mike


When I was driving up to the Fox Valley from Milwaukee for the first time 30+ years ago, I got stuck on the streets of Milwaukee because I assumed I should just follow US-41.  It was a problem.
WisDOT years ago addressed that with a sign at the Stadium Interchange traffic to fox cities and Green Bay via freeway take US 45. This was to prevent any traffic going there from taking US 41 on Lisbon Ave and Appleton Ave which is now WI-175. Again I don't get why there would be any confusion. Perhaps Oshkosh or Appleton should be used at the Mitchell instead of Fond Du Lac but that is easy to change I would think if your going that way anyone would know Fond Du Lac is in that general direction. Besides with the modern technology we have don't truck driver have GPS these days?

You mean like the truck driver GPS that sends them to the 11 Foot 8 Inch Bridge?
That's in North Carolina.
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roadman65

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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2017, 04:36:45 PM »

It's going to be called Highway 41 no matter what so it doesn't really matter. My main beef with I-41 is why does it multiplex with I-94 south of Milwaukee? It's not like Illinois is ever going to extend it.

Because 94 and 41 split a mile or so south of the state line.  It'd be silly to sign it as US 41/I-94 for one mile in Illinois, then switch to I-41/94 in Wisconsin.
I think he means why have I-41 south of the Zoo?

It should really end there and just I-94 south of Milwaukee with US 41 along for the ride as the interstate did steal away its original alignment.  US 41 was always there and got upgraded when the WI interstate system came to be, so we cannot kick it out of course.
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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2017, 05:15:08 PM »

You mean like the truck driver GPS that sends them to the 11 Foot 8 Inch Bridge?

That's in North Carolina.

So GPS works better behind the Cheddar Curtain?
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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2017, 06:30:22 PM »

One big reason why the 'I-41' number continues through metro Milwaukee, instead of stopping partway through (ie, ending at either the Zoo or Hale interchanges) is that for as long as those freeways had existed, people who are 'non-savvy' on the subject of the minutia of highway route numbering (including out of town big-rig truck drivers!) were getting lost transiting Milwaukee County while driving between Chicagoland and the Fox Valley (Fond du Lac, Oshkosh, Appleton, etc) - the best routing (present-day I-41 freeway) changed route numbers three times, while US 41 (on the freeway at either end) still used its old city street routing through the county.  It keeps the same recognizable route number on the entire corridor.

I believe that this is a legacy of the Milwaukee freeway system not being completed as originally planned.

This is something that I had been bugging WisDOT about since the 1980s.

Mike
I don't see where there would be any confusion given the fact that Fond Du Lac has always been used as a control city for 894 at the Mitchell. I am not sure if Fond Du Lac is consider one of the fox cities or not but even if it's not you could just change the control city to Oshkosh or Appleton would make more sense than a 40 mile pointless duplex. By far the most illogical duplex in the country.

I've heard numerous stories through the years of NE Wisconsin locals freaking out "Where did highway 41 go?!?!?", or following US 41 onto the streets and missing a turn, having to carefully explain the route numbering to out of state big-rig truck drivers on a CB radio, etc.

Yes, it was an ongoing problem.

Mike


When I was driving up to the Fox Valley from Milwaukee for the first time 30+ years ago, I got stuck on the streets of Milwaukee because I assumed I should just follow US-41.  It was a problem.
WisDOT years ago addressed that with a sign at the Stadium Interchange traffic to fox cities and Green Bay via freeway take US 45. This was to prevent any traffic going there from taking US 41 on Lisbon Ave and Appleton Ave which is now WI-175. Again I don't get why there would be any confusion. Perhaps Oshkosh or Appleton should be used at the Mitchell instead of Fond Du Lac but that is easy to change I would think if your going that way anyone would know Fond Du Lac is in that general direction. Besides with the modern technology we have don't truck driver have GPS these days?


This was in 1989 and I didn't have a map.  I just knew I had to get on US-41 north to head back north.  When i got to see a map, I figured out my mistake and didn't make it again.

Route numbers should be for ease of navigation first and foremost.  Moving US-41 off the city streets should have been done years ago.
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Re: Why isn't I-41 just I-243?
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2017, 10:36:41 PM »

It's going to be called Highway 41 no matter what so it doesn't really matter. My main beef with I-41 is why does it multiplex with I-94 south of Milwaukee? It's not like Illinois is ever going to extend it.

Because 94 and 41 split a mile or so south of the state line.  It'd be silly to sign it as US 41/I-94 for one mile in Illinois, then switch to I-41/94 in Wisconsin.
I think he means why have I-41 south of the Zoo?

It should really end there and just I-94 south of Milwaukee with US 41 along for the ride as the interstate did steal away its original alignment.  US 41 was always there and got upgraded when the WI interstate system came to be, so we cannot kick it out of course.
That is what I meant. Perhaps ending it at I-43 and removing the I-894 numbering all together would make the most sense. Up until I-43 went to Beloit the I-894 numbering made sense but now since the entire thing has two two-di's on it the numbering no longer makes sense.

I think the I-41 numbering is fine because it's considered highway 41 no matter if your refering to it as US 41 or I-41 it's the same thing but routing it south of Milwaukee doesn't make any sense, the US 41 numbering is fine there since it splits from I-94 the first chance it gets after entering Illinois.
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