The problemwith railsto trails.

[kphoger]

As usual, bicyclehazard makes several points of varying validity.  It's easier to understand by simply breaking the wall of text up into chunks.  Then you end up with a series of related but distinct topics to address.  Here you go:

A path that is continuous use by the public for an extended period of time legally becomes a road. This is how most roads were formed and why this topic is here.

The railroads were given 150,000,000 acres and payed to lay tracks by the federal government. But that was not enough the continued to acquire property by extortion. So private property went whining to the federal government and they responded by giving railroads easements over private property. Private property owners generally agreed that it was better to "allow" railroads to use their property rather than be murdered and have them take all of it.

The law was quite clear however once the tracks were abandoned the easement ceased to exist.

Local governments failed to understand these two basic and conflicting laws and decided that abandoned tracks belonged to them. So it has been well documented that local governments have stolen property from not only private property owners but also land that belonged to the federal government. See link below.

The big problem here is once pedestrian trails exist local governments decide they can ban non motorized traffic from nearby roads. This was tried on highway 31 between Bloomington and Indianapolis In. When I crossed the Ohio in Louisville the highway bridge was closed for repairs and there was no detour information that a pedestrian bridge even existed. The pedestrian bridge had fences and police roadblocks on both sides. Pedestrian trails generally are closed at night and often are shut down for events leaving non motorized no recourse. In one well publicized event police shut down the pedestrian trail and the highway while violent gangs roamed the city. The highway bypass already prohibited non motorized traffic.

In the Atlanta Metro area local governments are now seizing private property that is not on abandoned rail road tracks or streams and building trails on them. These are closed at night including the hours when children are walking to and from schools.

Farmers who own land on both sides of railroad tracks can cross those tracks at will. People who own land along streams have water rights to those streams. These are federal laws that can not be overturned by states. They can be enforced by the federal police with the department of agriculture.

I have no problem with the trails as long as they are treated as roads. That is they are open 24 hours and there are no police roadblocks.

I can shut down some of these trails and have private property on those trails condemned the same way I shut down the Blitz Weinhard brewery in Portland Oregon. All I wanted them to do was sweep up broken beer bottle they dropped on the roads. They however wanted to fight. 

[Roadgeekteen]

Learn about paragraphs. And spaces between words.

[kphoger]

Learn about paragraphs. And spaces between words.

There were very few omitted spaces, actually.  Paragraphing is the main thing.

[JasonOfORoads]

As usual, bicyclehazard makes several points of varying validity.  It's easier to understand by simply breaking the wall of text up into chunks.  Then you end up with a series of related but distinct topics to address.  Here you go:

A path that is continuous use by the public for an extended period of time legally becomes a road. This is how most roads were formed and why this topic is here.

The railroads were given 150,000,000 acres and payed to lay tracks by the federal government. But that was not enough the continued to acquire property by extortion. So private property went whining to the federal government and they responded by giving railroads easements over private property. Private property owners generally agreed that it was better to "allow" railroads to use their property rather than be murdered and have them take all of it.

The law was quite clear however once the tracks were abandoned the easement ceased to exist.

Local governments failed to understand these two basic and conflicting laws and decided that abandoned tracks belonged to them. So it has been well documented that local governments have stolen property from not only private property owners but also land that belonged to the federal government. See link below.

The big problem here is once pedestrian trails exist local governments decide they can ban non motorized traffic from nearby roads. This was tried on highway 31 between Bloomington and Indianapolis In. When I crossed the Ohio in Louisville the highway bridge was closed for repairs and there was no detour information that a pedestrian bridge even existed. The pedestrian bridge had fences and police roadblocks on both sides. Pedestrian trails generally are closed at night and often are shut down for events leaving non motorized no recourse. In one well publicized event police shut down the pedestrian trail and the highway while violent gangs roamed the city. The highway bypass already prohibited non motorized traffic.

In the Atlanta Metro area local governments are now seizing private property that is not on abandoned rail road tracks or streams and building trails on them. These are closed at night including the hours when children are walking to and from schools.

Farmers who own land on both sides of railroad tracks can cross those tracks at will. People who own land along streams have water rights to those streams. These are federal laws that can not be overturned by states. They can be enforced by the federal police with the department of agriculture.

I have no problem with the trails as long as they are treated as roads. That is they are open 24 hours and there are no police roadblocks.

I can shut down some of these trails and have private property on those trails condemned the same way I shut down the Blitz Weinhard brewery in Portland Oregon. All I wanted them to do was sweep up broken beer bottle they dropped on the roads. They however wanted to fight. 

I'm convinced this is a Markov chain of some kind, hence the "see link below" that crept in.

[Roadgeekteen]

Learn about paragraphs. And spaces between words.

There were very few omitted spaces, actually.  Paragraphing is the main thing.

I was talking about the title.

[bicyclehazard]

Sorry here is the link. Read it even if you think I am wrong on this topic. He has one set of laws that governments routinely violate and is working to right them. I have several other sets of laws that governments routinely violate but am involved in only one set. The rights of non motorized traffic. http://home.earthlink.net/~dick156/row.htm

[seicer]

Right. Like how you shut down a brewery for broken beer bottles or something. We (and others in the varying forums you crosspost to) believe you, too.

[bicyclehazard]

Right. Like how you shut down a brewery for broken beer bottles or something. We (and others in the varying forums you crosspost to) believe you, too.

I don't want to get involved in topic creep but this one is relevant. I witnessed the brewery breaking 3 laws one of which this forum should be concerned about. They filled up a 40 yard dumpster with beer bottles. Several hundred pounds of that glass bounced out on the roads. This is what I wanted cleaned up. Glass is slick and street sweepers do not pick it up very well. I estimate the weight of the glass in the dumpster to be 60000 pounds. The weight limit on those dumpsters is 16000 pounds. I used to work for an oil well company. The pipe truck was over weight and we had to avoid weigh stations. The company decided it was cheaper to pay the fines rather than operate two trucks. I followed that truck and on some highways I could see it damage the road. The beer bottles were full and 10000 gallons of beer flowed down the storm drain system. I contacted the EPA who had been after them for years about this issue but were unable to catch them at it. I was given a special number to call If I witnessed this again and they would send out a response team. They got busted The local authorities simply made it too costly for that brewery to operate in that location. What I learned from this is no mater how powerful you are there is some one with enough clout to take you down. All they need is a legal reason.

[cjk374]

dick156 is in the wording of the link. That says it all.

[Max Rockatansky]

I've always wondered, do people who rant on about stuff like this actually think they are accomplishing something or doing good for all?  I've always wondered when I've seen meltdown rants like this as to what the motivation really is. 

[jeffandnicole]

I haven't seen an EarthLink web address in years.

Speaking of years...within the linked page is this subject:

"Important Events of the Past Thirty Years"

It then goes back thru history starting in November, 1995, a mere 22 years ago from today (and seemingly about 19 years after the website was created. What happened to the other 10 years of history?  Some of the history doesn't really have anything to do with rails to trails either.

Apparently, this guy even filed a lawsuit in US Supreme Court regarding, well, something: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-dc-circuit/1107159.html . 

The important thing is the conclusion. This guy lost.

The motion to dismiss is granted.

It looks like even though he formed his 501c3 in 1994, he only filed once, for 2010, using a 2011 form.  http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2010/943/091/2010-943091700-08ee3e68-Z.pdf

[US71]

Right. Like how you shut down a brewery for broken beer bottles or something. We (and others in the varying forums you crosspost to) believe you, too.

I don't want to get involved in topic creep but this one is relevant. I witnessed the brewery breaking 3 laws one of which this forum should be concerned about. They filled up a 40 yard dumpster with beer bottles. Several hundred pounds of that glass bounced out on the roads. This is what I wanted cleaned up. Glass is slick and street sweepers do not pick it up very well. I estimate the weight of the glass in the dumpster to be 60000 pounds. The weight limit on those dumpsters is 16000 pounds. I used to work for an oil well company. The pipe truck was over weight and we had to avoid weigh stations. The company decided it was cheaper to pay the fines rather than operate two trucks. I followed that truck and on some highways I could see it damage the road. The beer bottles were full and 10000 gallons of beer flowed down the storm drain system. I contacted the EPA who had been after them for years about this issue but were unable to catch them at it. I was given a special number to call If I witnessed this again and they would send out a response team. They got busted The local authorities simply made it too costly for that brewery to operate in that location. What I learned from this is no mater how powerful you are there is some one with enough clout to take you down. All they need is a legal reason.

And this relates to Rails to Trails, how?  Also, you used to work for an oil well company, yet your profile claims you are 21.  Again, how does this relate to the topic?  Please start making sense.

[Buffaboy]

I think this guy is unaware of the law passed in the wake of mass rail abandonments in the 50s and 60s.  It's illegal for railroads to completely abandon their easements, to ensure that the line can be rebuilt if needed.  Rail trails exist in ROW that can be reclaimed by the railroad at any time.

Unfortunately that isn't the case around Buffalo. The (I think) New York Central tracks that run roughly parallel to Kenmore Avenue have ceased to exist. Leigh Valley's line from the intersection of Genesee St at Holtz Drive was eliminated many years ago, too. It appeared to go under the runway of the international airport, under the Thruway and parallel to I-290 and the power lines through Williamsville in a northwesterly direction.

One ROW that still exists is for the tracks parallel to I-90 between the US-219 junction and the I-190 interchange.

[hbelkins]

Right. Like how you shut down a brewery for broken beer bottles or something. We (and others in the varying forums you crosspost to) believe you, too.

I don't want to get involved in topic creep but this one is relevant. I witnessed the brewery breaking 3 laws one of which this forum should be concerned about. They filled up a 40 yard dumpster with beer bottles. Several hundred pounds of that glass bounced out on the roads. This is what I wanted cleaned up. Glass is slick and street sweepers do not pick it up very well. I estimate the weight of the glass in the dumpster to be 60000 pounds. The weight limit on those dumpsters is 16000 pounds. I used to work for an oil well company. The pipe truck was over weight and we had to avoid weigh stations. The company decided it was cheaper to pay the fines rather than operate two trucks. I followed that truck and on some highways I could see it damage the road. The beer bottles were full and 10000 gallons of beer flowed down the storm drain system. I contacted the EPA who had been after them for years about this issue but were unable to catch them at it. I was given a special number to call If I witnessed this again and they would send out a response team. They got busted The local authorities simply made it too costly for that brewery to operate in that location. What I learned from this is no mater how powerful you are there is some one with enough clout to take you down. All they need is a legal reason.

With all due respect, the Google search I posted above indicates that the brewery was sold to a bigger fish.

And as to the comment about beer flowing into the storm sewer and the EPA responding...

During my years as a small-town newspaper reporter and editor, I worked in dry counties -- those in which alcohol cannot legally be sold. As a result, there were occasional arrests for bootlegging. After the court cases were resolved, the law enforcement officers frequently had large quantities of illicit alcohol to dispose of. They usually did this by -- get this -- pouring that booze down the storm drains. I remember once where there were quite a few cases of beer they had confiscated. They put those cases of beer in a parking lot and then drove a piece of heavy equipment over them to crush the cans and send the beer flowing down the gutter. It made for great photo ops.

So forgive me if I'm skeptical about the EPA coming out to investigate full bottles of beer falling onto the pavement and breaking and sending the beer into the storm sewer.

[cbeach40]

I don't want to get involved in topic creep but this one is relevant. I witnessed the brewery breaking 3 laws one of which this forum should be concerned about. They filled up a 40 yard dumpster with beer bottles. Several hundred pounds of that glass bounced out on the roads. This is what I wanted cleaned up. Glass is slick and street sweepers do not pick it up very well. I estimate the weight of the glass in the dumpster to be 60000 pounds. The weight limit on those dumpsters is 16000 pounds. I used to work for an oil well company. The pipe truck was over weight and we had to avoid weigh stations. The company decided it was cheaper to pay the fines rather than operate two trucks. I followed that truck and on some highways I could see it damage the road. The beer bottles were full and 10000 gallons of beer flowed down the storm drain system. I contacted the EPA who had been after them for years about this issue but were unable to catch them at it. I was given a special number to call If I witnessed this again and they would send out a response team. They got busted The local authorities simply made it too costly for that brewery to operate in that location. What I learned from this is no mater how powerful you are there is some one with enough clout to take you down. All they need is a legal reason.

1. How does 10,000 gallons flow out of an 8,000 gallon dumpster? Especially since there would be some glass and air voids in the dumpster from the bottles.
2. 60,000 lbs plus the weight of the truck transporting it wouldn't even require an overweight vehicle permit in Oregon. It would be considered a regular vehicle weight/dimension, not noteworthy.
3. What kind of damage to the road occurred?
4. Special number, eh?

[Sam]

Rail trails exist in ROW that can be reclaimed by the railroad at any time.

In some cases, yes.  In other cases, some rail trail rights-of-way were outright purchased by the jurisdiction that built the trail.

THAT is the problem with Rails to Trails.

Even if the easement contract says the land and rights revert back to the landowner when the railroad gives it up, a trail group can still come in and purchase the land directly from the railroad.

[Scott5114]

Not highway related, nothing worth moving to Off-Topic.