Are anti-lock brakes overrated?

[J N Winkler]

My first car with ABS behaved.. funny. Once upon a time, on nice fresh snow, it basically refused to brake at all and rolled past stop sign into the middle of intersection. Locked brakes would just create a snow choke in front of the wheel -which would stop the car without an issue. So I drove a few years with ABS disabled.

Maturity of the technology is definitely an issue, not just with ABS but also with traction control and vehicle stability control.  Both of the cars I drive regularly have ABS, but the older one (turns 24 this February) has a first-generation design and I suspect it lengthens stopping distances in snow.  However, attempting a low-speed emergency stop on fresh snow not only verifies the system is still working after more than 20 years, but also gives me a sense of how much margin for error I have.

ABS can be an issue when performing basic brake services like replacing pads and rotors because the manufacturers invariably instruct mechanics to park the ABS motors, which of course can be done only with a service stall or handheld diagnostic tool.  Supposedly the work can be done with the motors unparked (typical in shadetree contexts), at least for some models, but the implications for durability of doing so are unclear.

Car insurance companies will give you a lower rate to insure a car with anti-lock brakes. That is a pretty definitive assessment that they are worthwhile - insurance companies know what reduces their likelihood of having a claim to pay out, and they know it well.

Does not follow.  Insurance companies continue to offer discounts for driver education even though it has been argued (notably in Ralph Nader's Unsafe at any speed) that it does little to improve safety outcomes.  Discounts are often driven as much or more by marketing as they are by actuarial considerations.

Ever hit a deer?

I have, several times, and in each case the collision occurred before I could even move my foot to the brake.  Reaction time is usually around 0.6 sec (up to 1 sec for about 10% of drivers) and at night at freeway speeds that is more than the time that elapses between the deer becoming visible in headlamp spill and impact.  I'd be surprised if even automatic braking systems could cope with deer.

There is also a certain amount of increased risk-taking among certain drivers. People (probably not most of the people on this board, but the average Joe Schmo) tend to drive slightly faster, slightly more recklessly than they would have in the same conditions because they know they are now driving with anti-lock brakes, stability control, etc; they assume the ABS will get them out of whatever driving situation the bad weather created, not having the same awareness as Brandon, above, for example.

Risk compensation can be a problem at the aggregate level.  In my own case, ABS doesn't really affect my driving style because I am aiming to minimize loss of brake pad material.

Automatic seatbelts ended up safety issue as it was only a shoulder belt - lap belt was still manual. Most people ended up using automatic shoulder belt only, and there was a very specific issue associated with that: after impact, lower part of the body was sliding forward as there was nothing holding it at the lap, chin was caught by the shoulder belt, and as body was sliding forward that resulted in neck injury - often fatal one.

The cause of all of this was a late-1980's passive restraint standard.  There were basically three approaches to compliance:  airbag, motorized shoulder belt with manual lap belt, and door-mounted fully manual seatbelts.  The last-listed was deemed a passive restraint because in theory the driver or passenger could climb into the car with the seatbelt buckled, after appropriate gymnastics.  Pre-1998 airbags were also "full power" and it was not until comparatively late that the word went around that seatbelts also needed to be buckled to get the full benefit of airbag protection.

My 1994 Saturn SL2 (daily driver) has ABS (Delco Moraine V), traction control (software overlay on the ABS system), manual lap belts with motorized shoulder belts, and a driver's airbag.  On the Saturn S-Series the motorized belts and airbags overlapped for two model years (1993-1994) since motorized belts had been provided from the beginning while airbags were a later addition.  The next year, the interior trim was lightly redesigned to allow manual-only belts with the airbags, and the year after that was a different generation altogether.

The Saturn has been in my family since new, so we still remember how the motorized shoulder belts work.  I have carried passengers ranging in age from 32 to 66 who either never experienced them or have forgotten how they work, so they get tangled in the belt as the mouse moves, or think they need to disconnect the buckle from the mouse.

[kphoger]

Ever hit a deer?

I have, several times, and in each case the collision occurred before I could even move my foot to the brake.  Reaction time is usually around 0.6 sec (up to 1 sec for about 10% of drivers) and at night at freeway speeds that is more than the time that elapses between the deer becoming visible in headlamp spill and impact.  I'd be surprised if even automatic braking systems could cope with deer.

I've only hit a deer once, but I was able to slow down from 65 to 25 mph before making contact, and it just limped away.  It didn't even dent the bumper (although I didn't argue when my parents assumed the bumper dent they found later from my hitting a parked car was from the deer).  There have been several times when I've seen a large animal in time to come to a stop or slow down enough that it walked away.  Once was coming over a hill to find a cow in the middle of the road.

There were basically three approaches to compliance:  airbag, motorized shoulder belt with manual lap belt, and door-mounted fully manual seatbelts.  The last-listed was deemed a passive restraint because in theory the driver or passenger could climb into the car with the seatbelt buckled, after appropriate gymnastics.  Pre-1998 airbags were also "full power" and it was not until comparatively late that the word went around that seatbelts also needed to be buckled to get the full benefit of airbag protection.

My 1994 Saturn SL2 (daily driver) has ABS (Delco Moraine V), traction control (software overlay on the ABS system), manual lap belts with motorized shoulder belts, and a driver's airbag.  On the Saturn S-Series the motorized belts and airbags overlapped for two model years (1993-1994) since motorized belts had been provided from the beginning while airbags were a later addition.  The next year, the interior trim was lightly redesigned to allow manual-only belts with the airbags, and the year after that was a different generation altogether.

The Saturn has been in my family since new, so we still remember how the motorized shoulder belts work.  I have carried passengers ranging in age from 32 to 66 who either never experienced them or have forgotten how they work, so they get tangled in the belt as the mouse moves, or think they need to disconnect the buckle from the mouse.

The car I learned to drive in had those automatic seat belts–a 1988 Toyota Camry 5-speed.  It had buttons down in the center console that allowed you to release the belts in case of emergency.  When you pressed the button, the car started beeping.  We took pleasure in secretly pushing them when giving someone a ride, and making them wonder what the beeping was from.

[J N Winkler]

I've only hit a deer once, but I was able to slow down from 65 to 25 mph before making contact, and it just limped away.  It didn't even dent the bumper (although I didn't argue when my parents assumed the bumper dent they found later from my hitting a parked car was from the deer).  There have been several times when I've seen a large animal in time to come to a stop or slow down enough that it walked away.  Once was coming over a hill to find a cow in the middle of the road.

The closest I have come to this scenario is on Nevada SR 375 (Extraterrestrials Highway) going west shortly after sunset.  This is open-range country and some kind of bull decided he wanted to cross in front of me as I was approaching him at 70.  He was silhouetted against the sky and was moving slowly, so I had enough time to hit the brakes and stop about 20 feet short.  He looked at me as if to say, "What's the big deal?"

This was in a car without ABS, by the way.

The car I learned to drive in had those automatic seat belts–a 1988 Toyota Camry 5-speed.  It had buttons down in the center console that allowed you to release the belts in case of emergency.  When you pressed the button, the car started beeping.  We took pleasure in secretly pushing them when giving someone a ride, and making them wonder what the beeping was from.

The all-time favorite car in the family was a 1990 Toyota Cressida that was also the only other car we ever owned with motorized shoulder belts.  It had release levers built into the console on either side of the handbrake handle.  We never actually pulled them because it was not clear how we would put them back.  For light amusement for passengers we could always push the button that exposes or hides the second bank of climate controls.

The Saturn has its emergency releases built into the belt mouses themselves.

[JREwing78]

Anti-lock brakes (and the traction/stability control ABS enables) are certainly NOT overrated. Ever drive a rear-wheel-drive pickup in the snow? Without those systems in place, those drive like drunk cows on roller skates. ABS and stability control give critical extra margins of control to make the vehicle controllable - particularly important when driver skill seems to be decreasing over time.

Will they save you from bald tires and willfully stupid behavior? No. But there's a reason they're mandated on new cars, trucks, and semi-trucks now - they work.

[Beltway]

ABS definitely helps a lot, IMHO.  I have had it in these cars -- 1994 Buick LeSabre, 2003 Buick LeSabre, 2016 Buick LaCrosse.

When making an emergency full brake application, it pumped wheel cylinders rapidly and even on snow and ice the car maintained straight path stability.

Something that you rarely need, but when you need it, is very important.

Another important benefit of ABS is that it is used for the traction control system and that iMO is even more useful than the braking function, for 2-wheel drive in slippery conditions.  My 2003 and 2016 cars have traction control.

As a measure of the value I put on ABS, my 2003 car had a wheel ABS harness fail twice, IIRC at about 150,000 miles and at about 220,000 miles.  When that happens the whole ABS system disables and you have manual only braking and no traction control.  The repair each time was about $400.  After driving the car for awhile without ABS, I willingly paid for the repair and was pleased to have ABS again operational.  This was on a car with high mileage where some people would have just left it disabled rather than pay for the repair, which was expensive.

[jakeroot]

ABS definitely helps a lot, IMHO.  I have had it in these cars -- 1994 Buick LeSabre, 2003 Buick LeSabre, 2016 Buick LaCrosse.

Surprised any of those cars would have ABS. They weigh enough to plow through just about anything unlucky enough to be in their way.

[kphoger]

ABS definitely helps a lot, IMHO.  I have had it in these cars -- 1994 Buick LeSabre, 2003 Buick LeSabre, 2016 Buick LaCrosse.

Surprised any of those cars would have ABS. They weigh enough to plow through just about anything unlucky enough to be in their way.

Back in high school, we once went cruising in my friend's grandma's '55 Ford.  2½ tons of steel, no power steering.  We told him to watch out for deer, it being shortly after dark.  His response:  "I dare a deer to jump out in front of this car."

[formulanone]

ABS definitely helps a lot, IMHO.  I have had it in these cars -- 1994 Buick LeSabre, 2003 Buick LeSabre, 2016 Buick LaCrosse.

Surprised any of those cars would have ABS. They weigh enough to plow through just about anything unlucky enough to be in their way.

Nearly every car made in the past 5 years has ABS (it's been a US federal requirement since late-2013), and I'd wager that most mid-priced vehicles in the past 20 years had it, too.

[kphoger]

ABS definitely helps a lot, IMHO.  I have had it in these cars -- 1994 Buick LeSabre, 2003 Buick LeSabre, 2016 Buick LaCrosse.

Surprised any of those cars would have ABS. They weigh enough to plow through just about anything unlucky enough to be in their way.

Nearly every car made in the past 5 years has ABS (it's been a US federal requirement since late-2013), and I'd wager that most mid-priced vehicles in the past 20 years had it, too.

For the record...
2018 — 1994 > 20

[/nitpick]

[RobbieL2415]

Anti-lock brakes (and the traction/stability control ABS enables) are certainly NOT overrated. Ever drive a rear-wheel-drive pickup in the snow? Without those systems in place, those drive like drunk cows on roller skates. ABS and stability control give critical extra margins of control to make the vehicle controllable - particularly important when driver skill seems to be decreasing over time.

Will they save you from bald tires and willfully stupid behavior? No. But there's a reason they're mandated on new cars, trucks, and semi-trucks now - they work.

They're only mandated on trucks weighing 10,001 lbs GVWR according to the newest FMVSS.

[tchafe1978]

My 2003 Chevy Malibu surprisingly doesn't have ABS. My parents were surprised when I told them after I had bought it from them that it doesn't have ABS. I've had older cars that had ABS like my 1993 Dodge Intrepid, 1992 Chevy Lumina, and 1997 Pontiac TranSport. I could get by either with or without ABS, but it is definitely nice to have.

My wife's 2007 Saturn Vue has ABS, but the light has been on in the dash for about two years and the ABS doesn't work. We've had it in to our local mechanic and he says it's mostly likely just a sensor that is bad, but he doesn't deal with those. So once we get our tax refund back we're going to finally take it in to the dealer to have it fixed. Right now it is just like somebody upthread said, the brakes work fine, but there is no automatic pumping of the brakes when the wheels lock up on snow or ice, so you have to pump the brakes manually.

[J N Winkler]

Surprised any of those cars would have ABS. They weigh enough to plow through just about anything unlucky enough to be in their way.

Antilock brakes were routine provision in airplane landing gear long before cars.  The empty weight of an Airbus A380 (to quote just one example) is 361 tonnes.

Nearly every car made in the past 5 years has ABS (it's been a US federal requirement since late-2013), and I'd wager that most mid-priced vehicles in the past 20 years had it, too.

In this drive-'em-till-they-die family, the last car not equipped with ABS left our ownership in 2007 and was then 22 years old.  At least one vehicle in the family fleet has had ABS from 1994 onward.  The oldest car we have owned that was equipped with ABS was a 1990 Toyota Cressida (purchased 1995 from a relative who had bought it new).

[jakeroot]

Just to make it clear, I was just having a laugh at Buick. I would sure as hell hope those American-designed Buick tanks would have ABS. The only Buick in the last twenty years that I'd be comfortable in without ABS would be the Regal, and that's because it's German, and is vastly more maneuverable.

[formulanone]

ABS definitely helps a lot, IMHO.  I have had it in these cars -- 1994 Buick LeSabre, 2003 Buick LeSabre, 2016 Buick LaCrosse.

Surprised any of those cars would have ABS. They weigh enough to plow through just about anything unlucky enough to be in their way.

Nearly every car made in the past 5 years has ABS (it's been a US federal requirement since late-2013), and I'd wager that most mid-priced vehicles in the past 20 years had it, too.

For the record...
2018 — 1994 > 20

[/nitpick]

No nitpick, anti-lock.

GM and Mercedes-Benz had offered it in some limited capacity since before we'd been born, but that doesn't necessarily make something commonplace.

For the record, my "˜09 Scion doesn't have ABS, since it was an option.

[Beltway]

Just to make it clear, I was just having a laugh at Buick. I would sure as hell hope those American-designed Buick tanks would have ABS. The only Buick in the last twenty years that I'd be comfortable in without ABS would be the Regal, and that's because it's German, and is vastly more maneuverable.

The 1994 and 2003 LeSabre's weren't very heavy, they were about 3,300 lbs.

The 2016 LaCrosse is a lot heavier, over 3,900 lbs.

[Beltway]

Antilock brakes were routine provision in airplane landing gear long before cars.  The empty weight of an Airbus A380 (to quote just one example) is 361 tonnes.

Like even back in the 1960s with the Boeing 707 and Douglas DC-8, and others later.

[jakeroot]

Just to make it clear, I was just having a laugh at Buick. I would sure as hell hope those American-designed Buick tanks would have ABS. The only Buick in the last twenty years that I'd be comfortable in without ABS would be the Regal, and that's because it's German, and is vastly more maneuverable.

The 1994 and 2003 LeSabre's weren't very heavy, they were about 3,300 lbs.

The 2016 LaCrosse is a lot heavier, over 3,900 lbs.

Yeah, actually those Buicks were pretty lightweight for those years. My head must be stuck in the 80s.

Nonetheless, they still had terrible handling. I wouldn't have felt safe in them, unless they were able to stop on a dime.

[bulldog1979]

I'm on my fourth car. My 1983 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera I drove in college and shortly thereafter didn't have ABS. My 1994 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme had ABS. My 2003 Oldsmobile Alero does not have ABS as it was the base model, although the wheel hubs have the speed sensors. My 2017 Chevrolet Cruze does have ABS and traction control.

[texaskdog]

Anti lock brakes suck.  So I'm trying to stop and I can't because my brakes don't let me.

[Beltway]

Just to make it clear, I was just having a laugh at Buick. I would sure as hell hope those American-designed Buick tanks would have ABS. The only Buick in the last twenty years that I'd be comfortable in without ABS would be the Regal, and that's because it's German, and is vastly more maneuverable.

The 1994 and 2003 LeSabre's weren't very heavy, they were about 3,300 lbs.
The 2016 LaCrosse is a lot heavier, over 3,900 lbs.

Yeah, actually those Buicks were pretty lightweight for those years. My head must be stuck in the 80s.
Nonetheless, they still had terrible handling. I wouldn't have felt safe in them, unless they were able to stop on a dime.

Like the Buick Roadmaster?  That was built on the Chevrolet Caprice platform, obviously a really big sedan.  Last built in 1996.

"Full sized" sedans built since the mid-1990s, with the exception of the Crown Victoria, are the size and weight of what were formerly in the mid-sized class.

The Buicks I had/have all had good handling.  I had a 1990 Buick Century as well, and that almost bordered on being a compact.

[jakeroot]

Just to make it clear, I was just having a laugh at Buick. I would sure as hell hope those American-designed Buick tanks would have ABS. The only Buick in the last twenty years that I'd be comfortable in without ABS would be the Regal, and that's because it's German, and is vastly more maneuverable.

The 1994 and 2003 LeSabre's weren't very heavy, they were about 3,300 lbs.
The 2016 LaCrosse is a lot heavier, over 3,900 lbs.

Yeah, actually those Buicks were pretty lightweight for those years. My head must be stuck in the 80s.
Nonetheless, they still had terrible handling. I wouldn't have felt safe in them, unless they were able to stop on a dime.

Like the Buick Roadmaster?  That was built on the Chevrolet Caprice platform, obviously a really big sedan.  Last built in 1996.

"Full sized" sedans built since the mid-1990s, with the exception of the Crown Victoria, are the size and weight of what were formerly in the mid-sized class.

The Buicks I had/have all had good handling.  I had a 1990 Buick Century as well, and that almost bordered on being a compact.

Might have been thinking of the Roadmaster, yes. I drive a Golf, so even the Mk5 Century seems huge to me.

[PHLBOS]

ABS definitely helps a lot, IMHO.  I have had it in these cars -- 1994 Buick LeSabre, 2003 Buick LeSabre, 2016 Buick LaCrosse.

Surprised any of those cars would have ABS. They weigh enough to plow through just about anything unlucky enough to be in their way.

Nearly every car made in the past 5 years has ABS (it's been a US federal requirement since late-2013), and I'd wager that most mid-priced vehicles in the past 20 years had it, too.

For the record...
2018 — 1994 > 20

[/nitpick]

No nitpick, anti-lock.

GM and Mercedes-Benz had offered it in some limited capacity since before we'd been born, but that doesn't necessarily make something commonplace.

Lincoln actually offered it as an option as far back as the late 60s/early 70s but it didn't catch on, and was discontinued by the mid-to-late 70s.  Such would return as an option on some models for the 1985 model year.

[Hurricane Rex]

Anti-lock brakes suck.  So I'm trying to stop and I can't because my brakes don't let me.

And that's why a lot of us still want locking breaks. Sure its less stress on the tires but you stop much further as a tradeoff. I have my preference in that case.

[kalvado]

Anti-lock brakes suck.  So I'm trying to stop and I can't because my brakes don't let me.

And that's why a lot of us still want locking breaks. Sure its less stress on the tires but you stop much further as a tradeoff. I have my preference in that case.

In most cases, moving wheel (properly functioning ABS equipped car) will stop faster and in shorter range than locked wheel - despite locked wheel may sound as more efficient (pun intended)
There are some rare cases when locked wheel is better (my example of snow choke above), but those are not that common, and looks like electronics now knows how to handle more challenging situations.
I heard some stories about ABS sensors going bad without controller realizing that - in those cases things do get ugly. But those seem to be very very infrequent.

[J N Winkler]

And that's why a lot of us still want locking brakes. Sure its less stress on the tires but you stop much further as a tradeoff. I have my preference in that case.

ABS is unquestionably superior on dry and wet roads--it is with winter precipitation that the picture gets cloudy.

If you really want no ABS on a car that is equipped with ABS, you can simply disconnect the motor pack.  The underlying reality is that driving for which ABS routinely makes a difference is high-risk driving.