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State DOT Forum Profiles

Started by TheArkansasRoadgeek, March 12, 2018, 04:43:14 PM

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TheArkansasRoadgeek

How many are there and what purpose do they serve?
Well, that's just like your opinion man...


hotdogPi

I assume you're talking about how you're a US highway and I'm a freeway, and some members are DOT employees.

Not counting mods and admins, there are 22.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?action=mlist;sort=id_group;start=800
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

adventurernumber1

Actually, I think he's talking about official forum profiles for official departments of transportation, such as AHTD, which is seemingly the official forum account for the official DOT of Arkansas.
Now alternating between different highway shields for my avatar - my previous highway shield avatar for the last few years was US 76.

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webny99

Quote from: adventurernumber1 on March 12, 2018, 05:59:29 PM
Actually, I think he's talking about official forum profiles for official departments of transportation, such as AHTD, which is seemingly the official forum account for the official DOT of Arkansas.
That's actually quite strange, and not something I've ever noticed before. I don't think many other DOT's have set up an account like that (since there are only 22 DOT employees to begin with, and several, like vdeane and Rothman, aren't here represent their DOT).

In the "users online" section at the bottom of the home page, I think DOT employees should be given a different color. Mods and admin are red, and interstate members are green, so they stand out. However, nothing stands out about the pale blue color given to those with "DOT Employee" status. It's similar to the color of "Dirt Road" and "Parking Lot".

US71

Quote from: adventurernumber1 on March 12, 2018, 05:59:29 PM
Actually, I think he's talking about official forum profiles for official departments of transportation, such as AHTD, which is seemingly the official forum account for the official DOT of Arkansas.


We have another individual using his name with an AHTD/ARDOT e-mail. He's not very active, though.
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

TheArkansasRoadgeek

Quote from: US71 on March 12, 2018, 07:27:32 PM
Quote from: adventurernumber1 on March 12, 2018, 05:59:29 PM
Actually, I think he's talking about official forum profiles for official departments of transportation, such as AHTD, which is seemingly the official forum account for the official DOT of Arkansas.


We have another individual using his name with an AHTD/ARDOT e-mail. He's not very active, though.
The very first time I saw the account for AHTD used was announcing the public funding survey they did back in 2017. Also, the account answered a question I posted. At least it is engaging to an extent.
Well, that's just like your opinion man...

jeffandnicole

From my somewhat limited engagement with public officials and employees of transportation departments, their work is simply a job.  They put in their 8 hours a day.  They don't get overly excited about it.  After work is done, they move on to whatever their normal daily activities are. Pretty much like most of us at our daily jobs.   If there's a public meeting, chances are they don't want to be there, and are doing it because it's required or requested by someone else. 

While we as a group are intensely particular about various aspects of roads, road building, signage issues, traffic lights, etc, most employees see it as "Dammit, I don't want to go out and fix something today", or "Why should I bother designing something that is going to be re-worked 30 times". 

It would be nice to hear from various public officials or employees, but by-in-large, most of them have no clue this forum exists.  And if they did know, most of them probably couldn't publically talk about many things that we're discussing.  And some things that we are overly particular about, such as bad signage that doesn't conform with MUTCD standards, they will take a different view and tell us that it meets the intent of the MUTCD.  And in government, "Close Enough for Government Work" is like saying "Well, he was at the 45 yard line, so we'll award him the touchdown anyway".

There are a few here that work in some form with roads and highways, and provide valuable input. 

TheArkansasRoadgeek

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2018, 10:56:48 AM
From my somewhat limited engagement with public officials and employees of transportation departments, their work is simply a job.  They put in their 8 hours a day.  They don't get overly excited about it.  After work is done, they move on to whatever their normal daily activities are. Pretty much like most of us at our daily jobs.   If there's a public meeting, chances are they don't want to be there, and are doing it because it's required or requested by someone else. 
Then why would someone bother getting a BSCE, if they now feel like it is a day to day experience, a 5 to 9 work day? Sorry, I realize you aren't in this line of work, maybe I am just seeking your opinion to this question. I mean if I were in that line of work (putting aside the fact I am a roadgeek) I would at least develop a 'love for the open road'.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2018, 10:56:48 AM
There are a few here that work in some form with roads and highways, and provide valuable input.
Well, at least some know about this great community! :bigass: :awesomeface:
Well, that's just like your opinion man...

jeffandnicole

Quote from: TheArkansasRoadgeek on March 13, 2018, 11:52:26 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2018, 10:56:48 AM
From my somewhat limited engagement with public officials and employees of transportation departments, their work is simply a job.  They put in their 8 hours a day.  They don't get overly excited about it.  After work is done, they move on to whatever their normal daily activities are. Pretty much like most of us at our daily jobs.   If there's a public meeting, chances are they don't want to be there, and are doing it because it's required or requested by someone else. 
Then why would someone bother getting a BSCE, if they now feel like it is a day to day experience, a 5 to 9 work day? Sorry, I realize you aren't in this line of work, maybe I am just seeking your opinion to this question. I mean if I were in that line of work (putting aside the fact I am a roadgeek) I would at least develop a 'love for the open road'.

You'll probably find more truckers & bus drivers have a love for the open road.  BSCEs may have a love of travel, buildings, the environment, or many other civil engineering occupations.

I once heard, and it can certainly be taken with a grain of salt, that someone working with a DOT has taken the lowest-level job out there available to someone with a civil engineering degree.  I guess I can agree someone with that.  Many designers aren't actually DOT employees, but employees of private firms that building much more than just roads, and transportation departments typically bid out their work to those firms.  And other than bridges, most roads aren't really all that notable.  If you're working with a DOT, chances are it's lower paying than most other jobs available to those with the degree.  Maybe you want steadier hours, more secure employment, or better benefits.  Or maybe you just suck and can't get a good job elsewhere.  In my office, we have plenty of people that meet that criteria.  They can do much better money-wise in the private sector, but forgo that cash for a less-cutthroat environment with the government.

To use another sports analogy: Engineers are the umpires and refs of the building world.  They're instrumental to their line of business.  When everything goes right, we'll never hear of them.  When something goes wrong, they're the first to be blamed.

Look - *PLEASE* do not take this as gospel.  Different strokes for different folks.  There's bound to be some people working for DOTs that are doing their dream jobs, and enjoy what they do, and are excited to tell the world about what they do.   But not as many as you would like to think there are.

vdeane

Also keep in mind that the people who have four year degrees are spending a lot of their time, if not most, sitting a desk, typing at a computer, like any other office worker.  The people spending their days out on the road have either two year degrees or no degree at all.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

hbelkins

I can't speak for other DOTs, but I know that in Kentucky, PEs are very well paid -- much more than other employees with bachelors or masters degrees in fields other than engineering. And in the recent past, they have been given huge raises so now the pay gap is wider than it was.  To say the non-PEs are resentful is an understatement.

Kentucky also has a scholarship program. You can get your engineering education paid for if you agree to work for KYTC for a certain period of time. And you're guaranteed summer employment and a job out of college. A few of those program participants bail after meeting the minimum number of years, but most become career employees. Frequently, they will stay 20 years -- long enough to ensure that their retirement benefits will pay for their health insurance -- and then go to work for a private firm, often one that does business with KYTC. They draw a reduced retirement check (although truth be told, that pension is probably more than a degreed non-PE retiree will get after working for the full 27 years or longer) and they also get paid well in their private employment.

I also can't speak to DOTs knowing about this forum, but I can attest that years ago they were well aware of the various hobbyist sites out there. Both my site and Jeff Carlyle's kentuckyroads.com site were known to KYTC folks. And years ago, someone referred to me as an unused but very valuable resource on signage issues.

I was a roadgeek with a career in journalism/PR long before I got my current job.

As for DOTs being represented on this forum, I honestly don't see the need. Everyone here has internet access (duh) and can send questions via email or web form. And with most DOTs being on social media, and with so many people there as well, that's another opportunity for interaction.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

jeffandnicole

We can also flip this around and wonder why most people on these boards don't have civil engineering degrees.  If they love roads so much, why don't they have a related education?  Every once in a while someone will come on here asking questions regarding future employment in the field...and then we rarely or never hear from them again.  But I can't think of any regular user who is on here to gain knowledge or talk about their road love (or love of roads; choose your words wisely) while pursuing their engineering degree, or fresh out of school.

vdeane

Comparing engineers vs. non-engineers (with a four year degree) at NYSDOT:
-Non-engineers can start at grade 18, though more often they start with a two-year traineeship at grade 13 the first year and grade 14 the second year.  The first promotion is to grade 23 and the second to grade 27.  After that, it's management (which has a different salary scale, and the salaries aren't even uniform across regions, since people in certain management positions can be "promoted" to the same job at a more prestigious location).
-Engineers start at a grade 18 traineeship for two years; afterwards, if they passed the FE exam by that point (if not, they lose their job), they automatically become a grade 20.  The first promotion is to grade 24 (after getting the PE certification) and then to 27.  I think there's also a promotion to 29 that is available before the management scale too.  This path was recently changed - used to start at grade 16 before becoming a 20 after a certain period of time, and that required passing a civil service test to keep it.
-For those with two-year degrees in an engineering-related role (people in the materials lab, construction inspectors, etc.): grade 8, then 13, 16, 19, and 23.  Note that this path was also recently changed - it used to be 16 to 20 (same title as the people in the engineering line, but not eligible for promotion due to lacking a PE), with some taking promotions to the 23 title in the analyst line (the same line I'm in as a non-engineer, so non-engineers with a four year degree will have to compete with people with two-year degrees and 20 years more experience for quite some time, until the people on the old career ladder retire).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

MNHighwayMan

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2018, 02:01:53 PM
We can also flip this around and wonder why most people on these boards don't have civil engineering degrees.  If they love roads so much, why don't they have a related education?

I know I'm probably answering a rhetorical question, but:

It's because my interest does not go all the way down to the very technical details of safety tolerances and equations for curve radii and traffic flow studies that designing bridges and roads actually requires. It's a very black-and-white take to have that if you're interested in something, you must either not like it or like it so much to devote your life to it.

That being said, I definitely wouldn't mind working in a sign shop, or actually working out in the field installing them. :) That's the level of interest roads hold in me, if I were to have the drive to work in a road-related field.


Scott5114

I'm not good enough at math to get an engineering degree, so there's that.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

jeffandnicole

Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 14, 2018, 04:29:24 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2018, 02:01:53 PM
We can also flip this around and wonder why most people on these boards don't have civil engineering degrees.  If they love roads so much, why don't they have a related education?

I know I'm probably answering a rhetorical question, but:

It's because my interest does not go all the way down to the very technical details of safety tolerances and equations for curve radii and traffic flow studies that designing bridges and roads actually requires. It's a very black-and-white take to have that if you're interested in something, you must either not like it or like it so much to devote your life to it.

Honestly, this is why I couldn't do civil engineering either. I'm an accountant by degree, which when it comes down to it involves addition, subtraction and multiplication.  That's it!  Nothing like the vast equations engineering involves.  And I hate taxes...I don't even do my own taxes!


TheArkansasRoadgeek

Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 14, 2018, 06:15:21 AM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 14, 2018, 04:29:24 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2018, 02:01:53 PM
We can also flip this around and wonder why most people on these boards don't have civil engineering degrees.  If they love roads so much, why don't they have a related education?

I know I'm probably answering a rhetorical question, but:

It's because my interest does not go all the way down to the very technical details of safety tolerances and equations for curve radii and traffic flow studies that designing bridges and roads actually requires. It's a very black-and-white take to have that if you're interested in something, you must either not like it or like it so much to devote your life to it.

Honestly, this is why I couldn't do civil engineering either. I'm an accountant by degree, which when it comes down to it involves addition, subtraction and multiplication.  That's it!  Nothing like the vast equations engineering involves.  And I hate taxes...I don't even do my own taxes!
Well! We know who's on the IRS' Watch List!  :-D :-P</sarcasm>
Well, that's just like your opinion man...

Beltway

#17
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2018, 10:56:48 AM
From my somewhat limited engagement with public officials and employees of transportation departments, their work is simply a job.  They put in their 8 hours a day.  They don't get overly excited about it.  After work is done, they move on to whatever their normal daily activities are. Pretty much like most of us at our daily jobs.   If there's a public meeting, chances are they don't want to be there, and are doing it because it's required or requested by someone else. 

My experience working for two state DOTs over 43 years, in 4 highway engineering areas and in the IT field, plus being right there among many other highway professionals, is that the vast majority are very competent at their jobs.  They are very focused on their job responsibilities and those are usually narrowly focused. 

People who are interested in highways as we are tend to have many interests in highways and explore many different aspects.   Being a good highway engineering professional, even at the technician level, keeps you very busy from day to day and narrowly focused as I said. 

Say you are on a team designing the VA-76 Powhite Parkway Extension as I was in the early 1980s.  We had 4 designers working on each of the 3 projects for about 2 years.  There were hundreds of details that had to be laid out on the plan sheets (no CADD back then but today you would be just as busy because computerization equals less employees), and the other workers were too busy on the tasks at hand to listen to everything I might want to talk about regarding other highways!  But they did talk about some, just not the amount I might have wanted; and I was very busy on the project myself.
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jakeroot

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 14, 2018, 05:49:19 AM
I'm not good enough at math to get an engineering degree, so there's that.

I could put myself through just about any math class. The last math class I took was Pre-calc, and I got a 3.9. But I didn't enjoy it at all (it was like doing laundry or vacuuming to me). A PE-related job would be very math-intensive much of the time, and while I could pull it off, I just wouldn't enjoy it at all. Too much bureaucracy, too. What I'm studying now, which is very Sketchup-intensive, is far more enjoyable, and will pay good too.

Beltway

#19
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 13, 2018, 02:01:53 PM
We can also flip this around and wonder why most people on these boards don't have civil engineering degrees.  If they love roads so much, why don't they have a related education?  Every once in a while someone will come on here asking questions regarding future employment in the field...and then we rarely or never hear from them again.  But I can't think of any regular user who is on here to gain knowledge or talk about their road love (or love of roads; choose your words wisely) while pursuing their engineering degree, or fresh out of school.

Any baccalaureate degree in engineering is a demanding and intensive program.  Civil engineering is not offered in many colleges, due to the lower number of engineering students that want to pursue that particular discipline.  Virginia for example has the baccalaureate program at UVA, VPI, VMI and ODU.

When I became a focused student at age 28, I wanted to pursue this program, but I was working fulltime and lived in Petersburg then and those schools were too far away to commute to.  That is why I chose the Information Systems degree program at VCU where I could commute to in evening school.  Still kept working for VDOT but went into the IT field.  FHWA provided a scholarship that paid for 10 courses and VDOT paid for nearly all the rest.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)



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