News:

Thank you for your patience during the Forum downtime while we upgraded the software. Welcome back and see this thread for some new features and other changes to the forum.

Main Menu

Route 6 sign project hits possible roadblock

Started by roadman, February 24, 2016, 04:54:35 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

roadman

http://www.capecodtimes.com/news/20160223/plan-to-renumber-route-6-exit-signs-hits-speed-bump?rssfeed=true

Question.  What is so "unique" or "historic" about the Mid-Cape Highway to preclude the installation of overhead signs?
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)


bob7374

Quote from: roadman on February 24, 2016, 04:54:35 PM
http://www.capecodtimes.com/news/20160223/plan-to-renumber-route-6-exit-signs-hits-speed-bump?rssfeed=true

Question.  What is so "unique" or "historic" about the Mid-Cape Highway to preclude the installation of overhead signs?
Apparently, hard to read ground-based signage is part of the unique Cape Cod experience along with traffic jams, high priced seafood, and crowded beaches. Loved this quote about the planned overhead signs: "They are not a Cape Cod kind of thing. Makes me think of Route 80 going through Pennsylvania."

Pete from Boston

I'm going to quote what someone said in another thread:


Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 22, 2016, 12:32:21 PMThe backlash that happens here is "The government did something and my personal problem is not solved by it, so I am going to list what is wrong with the government," followed by arguments about Donald Trump and Tom Brady and college kids.

People go online and say things like "The MBTA is terrible and my street doesn't get plowed, but they're going to change the exit numbers we all know?"  And the local news, which mostly reports on whatever gets twittered the most, fans the flames further.

I'd keep my head down, too.

There are indeed guidelines in a lot of towns, probably prevalent on the Cape and Islands, that regulate signs to protect local character.  There are McDonald's restaurants with ground-mounted wooden signs, for example, as required by local code.  I am sure it is this mentality (which I do believe has at least some merit) that people are misapplying to highway engineering.

But Interstate 80 in Pennsylvania?  That's the least visually intrusive route I can think of.  People rail on about how they wish something, anything, would break up the scenery.


roadman

#3
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 24, 2016, 05:51:57 PM

There are indeed guidelines in a lot of towns, probably prevalent on the Cape and Islands, that regulate signs to protect local character.  There are McDonald's restaurants with ground-mounted wooden signs, for example, as required by local code.  I am sure it is this mentality (which I do believe has at least some merit) that people are misapplying to highway engineering.

The problem I have with this is when a local governmental organization - in this case, the Cape Cod Commission, attempts to assert such arbitrary and subjective standards (to protect local character) into situations where they are not applicable and the local organization should have no authority to usurp the agency that owns and maintains the facility - especially when said agency is bound by Federal standards and guidelines.  And of course, a large part of the problem is that the "burden of proof" in this case lies with MassDOT to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that overhead signs are necessary, instead on the opposition to prove that the "scenic and historical character" of the Mid-Cape Highway (which, BTW, is a freeway) will be forever and irreparably harmed by providing improved signs - which BTW the tourists rely heavily on to get to those local "historic" towns and overpriced seafood restaurants and the like.

QuoteBut Interstate 80 in Pennsylvania?  That's the least visually intrusive route I can think of.  People rail on about how they wish something, anything, would break up the scenery.

Plus it's a poor example if you're discussing overhead signs.  Last time I drove it (2014), apart from a few major junctions and other areas, the majority of the signs were ground-mounted, not overhead.  Unless PennDOT magically replaced all the signs with new structures since then, I doubt things have changed much.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

Alps

Overhead signs aren't necessary on four-lane highways. You're talking about a wealthy vacation area where the rich people who don't live there want to believe in the faraway aspect of Cape Cod. That's why it's impossible to improve access. That's why it's impossible to improve safety. Everything has to remain exactly as the rich people want it even if the local residents want differently.

Beeper1

Quote from: Alps on February 24, 2016, 09:20:00 PM
Overhead signs aren't necessary on four-lane highways. You're talking about a wealthy vacation area where the rich people who don't live there want to believe in the faraway aspect of Cape Cod. That's why it's impossible to improve access. That's why it's impossible to improve safety. Everything has to remain exactly as the rich people want it even if the local residents want differently.

Sounds just like the obstructionists who wont let ConnDOT do a damn thing to fix the issues on the Merritt Parkway.

Jim

From the article:

QuoteHunt and Peake say they're worried about the expense to Cape business owners of changing the directions they give to clients, and about confusing locals, senior citizens and summer visitors.

We all know that there have been massive groups of locals, senior citizens, and tourists lost on the interstate system, and people unable to find businesses, in Florida ever since the mileage-based exit renumbering there.  Who would want the same to happen on Cape Cod?

Photos I post are my own unless otherwise noted.
Signs: https://www.teresco.org/pics/signs/
Travel Mapping: https://travelmapping.net/user/?u=terescoj
Counties: http://www.mob-rule.com/user/terescoj
Twitter @JimTeresco (roads, travel, skiing, weather, sports)

paulthemapguy

Here's a bit of an anecdote.
My experience in Cape Cod was a little side trip last October as a friend and I went to Boston for a few days.  We ate dinner at a pizza place by the shore.  The waitress, who was a perfectly nice lady, took our order and when the pizza came out it had onions in it when I asked for no onions.  I kind of dealt with it, and when she came back, I brought it up that there was a mistake but it wasn't a big deal.  The lady immediately entered panic mode, as if I was about to unleash holy hell on her hahaha.  Lucky she was dealing with a couple laid-back Midwesterners.  I was just thinking, "why is this woman afraid for her life? Are the people here so ornery and rigid that they would have gone apeshit if they found the wrong topping on their pizza?"  So that's my idea of Cape Cod people now:  people who think they're such special snowflakes that they can live and hate on anything without considering how it affects anyone else.  Did you look at the comments section in the OP's link?  Holy christballs.  Is this why they're called Massholes?

Thus concludes story time with Paul ^_^

P.S.  MILEAGE-BASED EXIT NUMBERS FO LYFE
Avatar is the last interesting highway I clinched.
My website! http://www.paulacrossamerica.com Now featuring all of Ohio!
My USA Shield Gallery https://flic.kr/s/aHsmHwJRZk
TM Clinches https://bit.ly/2UwRs4O

National collection status: 361/425. Only 64 route markers remain

Duke87

The problem with using only ground mounted signs at the MA 134 interchange is that it is a cloverleaf. The MUTCD explicitly requires overhead signage at cloverleaf interchanges on freeways and expressways (section 2E.45):
QuoteAn overhead guide sign shall be placed at the theoretical gore of the first exit ramp, with a diagonally upward-pointing directional arrow on the Exit Direction sign for that exit and the message XX MILES, or EXIT XX MILES if interchange numbering is not used, on the Advance Guide sign for the second exit, as shown in Figure 2E-35.  The second exit shall be indicated by an overhead Exit Direction sign over the auxiliary lane.  An Exit Gore sign shall also be used at each gore (see Section 2E.37).
(emphasis mine)

Like with the mile based exit numbers, the people of Cape Cod need to take this up with FHWA, not the state DOT.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

Pete from Boston

As I alluded to earlier, a regional set of guidelines for restraint makes sense on the Cape.  Development, land use, utility and water management, and more are all particularly important issues in a landform that is simultaneously very desirable and environmentally fragile.

This is why there is a Cape Cod Commission.

Exit numbers and sign mounting styles are not.

I hope MassDOT has someone of conviction who can come in and quickly put to rest the idea that these issues harm the Cape unduly compared to the rest of the Commonwealth.  The rest of us don't have a regional oversight commission, but I'd like to think if we did, it would do its job instead of playing with minutiae of highway management.

AMLNet49

I'm not sure if many people are aware, but Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket actually have similar organizations. They have successfully lobbied MassDOT/MassHighway for more than 40 years to allow unique signs on the islands that reflect the "character" of the islands. As a result, every single paddle sign on both islands is black on white, with a green crown containing a fish on Nantucket and a bunch of grapes on Martha's Vineyard. However, Cape Cod is much larger and it is also one thing to ask about paddle signs, but highway guide signs are another story.

However I will say that the signs on US 6 absolutely need replacement, they are almost impossible to read at night. The signs are definitely going to be replaced. The only questions are whether the overhead signs will be used and whether the exit numbers will be mileage-based. I would guess that they may concede ground mounted signs, but not on the exit numbers (which, aside from one politician in Orleans, not many people care as much about it seems).

mariethefoxy

Quote from: Duke87 on February 24, 2016, 11:14:04 PM
The problem with using only ground mounted signs at the MA 134 interchange is that it is a cloverleaf. The MUTCD explicitly requires overhead signage at cloverleaf interchanges on freeways and expressways (section 2E.45):
QuoteAn overhead guide sign shall be placed at the theoretical gore of the first exit ramp, with a diagonally upward-pointing directional arrow on the Exit Direction sign for that exit and the message XX MILES, or EXIT XX MILES if interchange numbering is not used, on the Advance Guide sign for the second exit, as shown in Figure 2E-35.  The second exit shall be indicated by an overhead Exit Direction sign over the auxiliary lane.  An Exit Gore sign shall also be used at each gore (see Section 2E.37).
(emphasis mine)

Like with the mile based exit numbers, the people of Cape Cod need to take this up with FHWA, not the state DOT.

theres quite a few interchanges on the parkways on Long Island with only ground mounted signs

roadman

#12
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 25, 2016, 12:14:25 AM
The rest of us don't have a regional oversight commission, but I'd like to think if we did, it would do its job instead of playing with minutiae of highway management.

Actually, every region of the state has a regional planning commission  http://www.apa-ma.org/resources/massachusetts-regional-planning-agencies.  However, most of them are not as narrow-minded and nit-picky when it comes to roadway improvements as the Cape Cod Commission is.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

Pete from Boston


Quote from: roadman on February 25, 2016, 10:23:18 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 25, 2016, 12:14:25 AM
The rest of us don't have a regional oversight commission, but I'd like to think if we did, it would do its job instead of playing with minutiae of highway management.

Actually, every region of the state has a regional planning commission.  However, most of them are not as narrow-minded and nit-picky when it comes to roadway improvements as the Cape Cod Commission is.

You mean MPOs?  I thought the CCC had comparatively extraordinary powers.

Rothman

CCC is an MPO is a regional planning commission. :D
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

roadman

Quote from: paulthemapguy on February 24, 2016, 10:57:04 PM
Here's a bit of an anecdote.
My experience in Cape Cod was a little side trip last October as a friend and I went to Boston for a few days.  We ate dinner at a pizza place by the shore.  The waitress, who was a perfectly nice lady, took our order and when the pizza came out it had onions in it when I asked for no onions.  I kind of dealt with it, and when she came back, I brought it up that there was a mistake but it wasn't a big deal.  The lady immediately entered panic mode, as if I was about to unleash holy hell on her hahaha.  Lucky she was dealing with a couple laid-back Midwesterners.  I was just thinking, "why is this woman afraid for her life? Are the people here so ornery and rigid that they would have gone apeshit if they found the wrong topping on their pizza?"  So that's my idea of Cape Cod people now:  people who think they're such special snowflakes that they can live and hate on anything without considering how it affects anyone else.  Did you look at the comments section in the OP's link?  Holy christballs.  Is this why they're called Massholes?

Thus concludes story time with Paul ^_^

P.S.  MILEAGE-BASED EXIT NUMBERS FO LYFE
The term "Masshole" is generally used to refer to a person who exhibits excessively agressive or arrogant driving, cycling, or walking behavior.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

Pete from Boston

Quote from: Rothman on February 25, 2016, 10:35:22 AM
CCC is an MPO is a regional planning commission. :D

I thought the CCC had broader oversight than that.  I don't know why I thought that, but I did.


Quote from: roadman on February 25, 2016, 11:00:08 AMThe term "Masshole" is generally used to refer to a person who exhibits excessively agressive or arrogant driving, cycling, or walking behavior.

And countless other acts involving some combination of beer, the Red Sox, or being in New Hampshire, where they think we're all Massholes.  I learned the term in depth before I ever knew it had application in how people get around.

PHLBOS

#17
IMHO, the only place along US 6/Mid-Cape Highway that might be overkill in terms of using overhead sign structures would be the Super-2 section east of Exit 9A-B (MA 134/Future Exit 77A-B).

One compromise could be to just use ground-mounted BGS' along the Super-2 stretch and overheads along the 4-lane stretch.

As far as the exit number changes are concerned; IMHO, some of the reasons behind the complaints are a bit overblown. 

There was probably similar complaints when the area code changed from 617 to 508 back in 1988 and when 10-digit dialing became mandatory several years later when the 774 overlay area code was introduced.

The above-changes happened and it was not the end of the world for the Cape.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

RobbieL2415

I've been traveling to the Cape for the past 20 years or so and have watched those signs slowly loose their reflectivity.  At night, the route shield on eastbound sign for exit 2 is unreadable until you're 5' in front of it, for example.  The signs clearly need to be replaced.  Replaced with overhead gantries where the MUTCD requires it?  Probably not.  Its not like we're dealing with an Interstate that relies on federal funding for maintenance.

I honestly don't have a preference over either milage-based or sequential exits.  But I could see where a motorist would get confused seeing an Exit 70 at the BEGINNING of a highway when they're used to seeing exit 1 (I doubt many tourists are aware that US 6 continues past the Bourne rotary.)  Most of the opposition is probably just people being crotchety and not being open to change.  It would be like all of a sudden changing the colors of the T lines, people are used to things being a certain way, especially in a NIMBY-centric region such as the Cape.

Forgive me if this post comes across as noob-ish, this is my first post.

roadman

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 25, 2016, 02:51:40 PM
I've been traveling to the Cape for the past 20 years or so and have watched those signs slowly loose their reflectivity.  At night, the route shield on eastbound sign for exit 2 is unreadable until you're 5' in front of it, for example.  The signs clearly need to be replaced.  Replaced with overhead gantries where the MUTCD requires it?  Probably not.  Its not like we're dealing with an Interstate that relies on federal funding for maintenance.

I honestly don't have a preference over either milage-based or sequential exits.  But I could see where a motorist would get confused seeing an Exit 70 at the BEGINNING of a highway when they're used to seeing exit 1 (I doubt many tourists are aware that US 6 continues past the Bourne rotary.)  Most of the opposition is probably just people being crotchety and not being open to change.  It would be like all of a sudden changing the colors of the T lines, people are used to things being a certain way, especially in a NIMBY-centric region such as the Cape.

Forgive me if this post comes across as noob-ish, this is my first post.

Welcome to the forum.  Not a noob-ish post at all, so no apologies necessary.  Note that, although Interstate Maintenance is a specific Federal funding category, federal maintenance funds are not limited to work on the Interstate system.  Because Route 6 is part of the National Highway System, maintenance work can be funded through one of several funding categories.  A common category for sign replacements is through HSIP (Highway Safety Improvement Program), which is a 90%/10% split.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

The Ghostbuster

Maybe they should put up new signs, and give the old signs to the whiny, rich NIMBYs.

SectorZ

I thought the point of putting the 'old exit' tab for two years above the new exit number was to assist in the transition. This state, just like with getting rid of 128 from Canton to Peabody, amazes me with how forward thinking it can be in so many ways but throw temper tantrums over stuff like this.

Rothman

Quote from: roadman on February 25, 2016, 03:12:42 PM

Welcome to the forum.  Not a noob-ish post at all, so no apologies necessary.  Note that, although Interstate Maintenance is a specific Federal funding category, federal maintenance funds are not limited to work on the Interstate system.  Because Route 6 is part of the National Highway System, maintenance work can be funded through one of several funding categories.  A common category for sign replacements is through HSIP (Highway Safety Improvement Program), which is a 90%/10% split.

I'll say this again:

New Interstate Maintenance (IM) funds haven't existed since SAFETA-LU expired.  Essentially, such funding was rolled into the National Highway Performance Program (NHPP) with MAP-21 (along with a good chunk of states' HBRR funds -- the remaining HBRR portion essentially was absorbed by the Surface Transportation Program, which is now, under FAST, called the Surface Transportation Block Grant, for some idiotic reason).   

NHPP is now the main category for funding construction projects on the NHS.  There is no longer as much of a variety of core federal fund sources as there once was and with MAP-21, the federal funding mix has focused more of states' federal funds towards the NHS (i.e., NHPP has taken up a larger portion of distributed funds and it is eligible only for the NHS...with a few exceptions).

That all said, I'm still incredulous at the fact that MassDOT is being allowed by their FHWA Division to use HSIP for exit numbering changes.  That'd never fly with the FHWA Division in NY.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Duke87

Quote from: PHLBOS on February 25, 2016, 02:38:58 PM
IMHO, the only place along US 6/Mid-Cape Highway that might be overkill in terms of using overhead sign structures would be the Super-2 section east of Exit 9A-B (MA 134/Future Exit 77A-B).

One compromise could be to just use ground-mounted BGS' along the Super-2 stretch and overheads along the 4-lane stretch.

Okay, I think I misread the initial description. I thought the overhead signs were only proposed at exit 9 (where the MUTCD, as I mentioned above, requires them). Apparently they are proposed at every interchange - that IS unnecessary. If the people of Cape Cod don't want overhead signs all over, I see no reason to force them upon them when ground mounted signs would be cheaper. Might as well save the money.

For the sake of MUTCD compliance, however, there does need to be one overhead sign structure in each direction at (current) exit 9. Two, if MassDOT does not want to mount the gore sign for the second exit on the overpass.

Quote from: mariethefoxy on February 25, 2016, 02:50:56 AM
theres quite a few interchanges on the parkways on Long Island with only ground mounted signs

The overhead sign requirement applies to cloverleaf interchanges specifically (logically one would also follow the same standard at a parclo with two exits). Any interchange where there is only one exit in each direction can be signed entirely with ground mounted signs.

That said, yes, there *are* cloverleaf interchanges on NY parkways that lack overhead signage (e.g. exits 35S-N on the Northern State). This is, however, a violation of the MUTCD, or at least the 2003 and 2009 versions of it. I'm not sure whether this requirement was in the 2000 version or how far back it goes, but it's certainly possible depending on how old those signs are that they were not in violation of any standard at the time they were installed.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

Alps

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 25, 2016, 02:51:40 PM
I've been traveling to the Cape for the past 20 years or so and have watched those signs slowly loose their reflectivity.  At night, the route shield on eastbound sign for exit 2 is unreadable until you're 5' in front of it, for example.  The signs clearly need to be replaced.  Replaced with overhead gantries where the MUTCD requires it?  Probably not.  Its not like we're dealing with an Interstate that relies on federal funding for maintenance.

I honestly don't have a preference over either milage-based or sequential exits.  But I could see where a motorist would get confused seeing an Exit 70 at the BEGINNING of a highway when they're used to seeing exit 1 (I doubt many tourists are aware that US 6 continues past the Bourne rotary.)  Most of the opposition is probably just people being crotchety and not being open to change.  It would be like all of a sudden changing the colors of the T lines, people are used to things being a certain way, especially in a NIMBY-centric region such as the Cape.

Forgive me if this post comes across as noob-ish, this is my first post.
Based on your first post, I hope to see many more, because I completely agree with it.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.