just noticed this photo on Dale Sanderson's site:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usends.com%2F30-39%2F035%2Fend035s-h2.jpg&hash=684bb94edc397b90f11aea3c710316ded7f72114)
here, 21 refers to old US-21, but why the circle shield? I was under the impression that all WV secondary routes were expressed as a "fraction" - two numbers separated by a horizontal line. are there other single-number secondaries in WV?
Circle shields are county routes. Some county routes are "fractions", but many are single numbers.
Fractions can be spurs off county or state/US routes. So a 21/1 numbered for US 21 would still be numbered correctly when US 21 became CR 21. Most unfractional county routes are simply the main roads in the county.
Another well-known unfractional route is CR 857, connecting to PA 857.
another fun exercise: see if you can find where a square and circle route intersect with the same number. i'm pretty sure I came across this.
Quote from: NE2 on June 27, 2013, 01:44:28 PM
Fractions can be spurs off county or state/US routes. So a 21/1 numbered for US 21 would still be numbered correctly when US 21 became CR 21. Most unfractional county routes are simply the main roads in the county.
Another well-known unfractional route is CR 857, connecting to PA 857.
does WV not use the pentagon?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 27, 2013, 06:43:05 PM
Quote from: NE2 on June 27, 2013, 01:44:28 PM
Fractions can be spurs off county or state/US routes. So a 21/1 numbered for US 21 would still be numbered correctly when US 21 became CR 21. Most unfractional county routes are simply the main roads in the county.
Another well-known unfractional route is CR 857, connecting to PA 857.
does WV not use the pentagon?
There are pentagon routes as well as triangle routes. I have all of the shield types on my page. (see last caption on SR 857 (http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/wv/sr_857) for a brief rundown)
I note the triangle route.
got a photo of a WV pentagon? are they used similarly to Alabama putting up a pentagon for every driveway and cross street, mainly for emergency operators.
"County routes" (as WVDOT calls them) are the circles, which are state-maintained.
The pentagons in WV are white and house-shaped. (Insert racial joke here.)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrew-turnbull/5904974529/
Here's a couple of non-fractional routes, at/near US 60 in Kenova:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7608/27211205394_94b416ff4a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HsyxkG)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7671/27823302415_f4f429a142_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/JoDGsB)
The real oddity I came across was a couple of not-quite-round and not-quite-square shields for WV 527 in Huntington.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7136/27211773003_d08fec937a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HsBs54)
While we're at it, a housey-route...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7328/27823302165_bd40d731af_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/JoDGoi)
A delta route straggler in Morgantown.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4171/34504036926_822e7e257b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Uz1d5o)
Edit: Fixed broken links.
I've only seen a couple of "delta route" markers in all my WV travels. One was off of WV 49 south of Matewan; the other was off of CR 857 between Cheat Lake and the Pennsylvania state line.
Quote from: hbelkins on June 27, 2013, 10:44:27 PM
I've only seen a couple of "delta route" markers in all my WV travels. One was off of WV 49 south of Matewan; the other was off of CR 857 between Cheat Lake and the Pennsylvania state line.
Delta routes haven't officially existed in a long, long time. The remaining signs were stragglers. There were a handful around Morgantown/Cheat Lake left but I think they're all gone now.
Quote from: Steve on June 27, 2013, 06:42:28 PM
another fun exercise: see if you can find where a square and circle route intersect with the same number. i'm pretty sure I came across this.
This situation should not exist. I've seen where the same route number has been sliced into multiple disconnected pieces by abandonments, but otherwise WVDOH doesn't seem to allow duplication of the same number in a county. When US 33 was extended into Randolph County in the 1930s, for example, the existing CR 33 was renumbered to CR 37/8.
Quote from: Bitmapped on June 28, 2013, 12:16:31 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 27, 2013, 10:44:27 PM
I've only seen a couple of "delta route" markers in all my WV travels. One was off of WV 49 south of Matewan; the other was off of CR 857 between Cheat Lake and the Pennsylvania state line.
Delta routes haven't officially existed in a long, long time. The remaining signs were stragglers. There were a handful around Morgantown/Cheat Lake left but I think they're all gone now.
I haven't checked the PDFs of county maps on WVDOT's Web site lately, so I don't know how often they are updated, but the last time I checked, there were several counties with delta routes listed.
I know that I went looking several years ago for a delta route shown on the WVDOT county maps in, I think, Lincoln or Kanawha county (off WV 3 just north of US 119) and it was signed with a standard county route marker (route number and name on one rectangular green sign).
Seems to me that WV always takes everything from VA and pits its own spin on it. (the only difference being that VA does not use fractions in its route numbers, and I don't think any other states do either)
dang, the fractional routes have been around since the 30s?
I've never seen a WV shield for a style other than US and state route earlier than the 60s. perhaps those minor roads didn't receive embossed shields which stood the test of time?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 28, 2013, 11:36:06 AM
dang, the fractional routes have been around since the 30s?
I've never seen a WV shield for a style other than US and state route earlier than the 60s. perhaps those minor roads didn't receive embossed shields which stood the test of time?
Very few WV county routes have standalone shields. Most are signed with the road name and the arrow in a rectangular green sign. They have always been signed like this dating back to my memory in the 60s.
There are no more Delta routes in WV. The political history is that there was a big federal government take everybody to jail event in the 1960s at the then called State Road Department. In WV there are a lot of roads that just developed. Coal company built it, early settlers built it, railroad built it, whatever. People live there, somebody has to keep it up and, as noted, WV has no real county highway departments, "County" (the circle signed routes) is just a lesser quality (generally) state highway. So, the state was in the practice of fixing all of these back roads, but there was no accounting. A "road" a crew "fixed" might be some pol's driveway, or might just be "we took the gravel and sold it and split the cash". Since there was no way to account, there was no way to check. So, as a result of the investigation, they came up with the "Delta" route, which were roads to which the state made no right of way claim but which none-the-less repaired by the state. All road work has to be "charged off" to a route number and a mileage. So, if you say you did X to Delta 78, 3 miles from the JCT of CR 6/89, then an inspector can go look at it and there better be X there. However, this was just a short term way to get the corruption under control. By the mid 70s all Delta routes were either established right of way in the state and became County routes, or were abandoned and no longer are under state maintainance. Any Delta signage you see today is just old signage that never got taken down.
As to the "pentagon", this is not the standard county route pentagon sign used in most states, which has equal sides and rounded corners. Its supposed to be a picture of a little house (think monopoly houses) with unequal sides and sharp corners. The program was under a single term governor, Underwood. The program was called "HARP", for Home Access Roads Program. It was all politics. People up a holler, or in a subdivision, filled out a petition and got a sign and "maintain at the current standard" status. There was no right of way check. The next gov cancelled it on day one. But the state is stuck with all of these HARPs, which it has to keep up. Technically, they are County routes, you would account for work on one as "County HARP 456" for example.
Kentucky has a lot of unsigned state routes (think frontage roads along interstates or parkways, or city streets that are state-maintained; most of these show up as purple "supplementary" routes on the county State Primary Road System (SPRS) maps available on KYTC's Web site and generally are four-digit route numbers) but West Virginia sure made it a point to sign just about every one of those HARP routes, which added to the cost of the program.
SP Cook, so how does the state route system work in West Virginia then? Is it primary (square) and secondary (circle/fractional) routes, not state and county routes then?
Secondaries are called county routes, despite being state maintained.
Quote from: hbelkins on June 28, 2013, 08:25:55 PM
Very few WV county routes have standalone shields. Most are signed with the road name and the arrow in a rectangular green sign. They have always been signed like this dating back to my memory in the 60s.
now that I think about it, I have not ever seen a standalone shield for a fractional route. just green signs.
anyone got a photo of a standalone?
I'd even take a non-fraction, as long as it isn't 857. I've seen standalone 857 circles, but that's the only one.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 01, 2013, 05:35:42 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 28, 2013, 08:25:55 PM
Very few WV county routes have standalone shields. Most are signed with the road name and the arrow in a rectangular green sign. They have always been signed like this dating back to my memory in the 60s.
now that I think about it, I have not ever seen a standalone shield for a fractional route. just green signs.
anyone got a photo of a standalone?
As mentioned up thread, SSR 857 was well signed but now with WV-43 (Mon-Fayette Expressway) completed, its not the main route northward into PA.
(https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/west_virginia400/ssr-857_sb_at_ssr-069_cu.jpg)
(https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/west_virginia050/ssr-069_nb_at_ssr-857.jpg)
ha, yeah, I edited my post to say "not 857; that's the only one I have seen a circle shield for".
any others?
CR 21 (old US 21) and CR 82: http://www.gribblenation.com/wvpics/varied/
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gribblenation.com%2Fwvpics%2Fvaried%2Fwv21.jpg&hash=999e33616ce7a6811c93c45c7e0494166ba9767a)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gribblenation.com%2Fwvpics%2Fvaried%2Ftruck-carwv82.jpg&hash=7bfad800c904ef3396ad8625376fd987d8276a80)
Non-fractionals are signed often enough that it's really not worth mentioning. I've never seen a standalone fractional shield, only on green signs, although one of those "Funded by XX Agency" signs had one with a black square background as if a shield.
What the crap? Do these actually exist?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fc%2Fcf%2FHome_Access_Road_Fractional_Sign.png%2F240px-Home_Access_Road_Fractional_Sign.png&hash=141056424ed37369aa08c8d638ae3d4bbe08ffa3)
Quote from: NE2 on July 01, 2013, 07:50:20 PM
What the crap? Do these actually exist?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fc%2Fcf%2FHome_Access_Road_Fractional_Sign.png%2F240px-Home_Access_Road_Fractional_Sign.png&hash=141056424ed37369aa08c8d638ae3d4bbe08ffa3)
I have never seen that. Wiki FTL.
"Delta Road System - consists of those roads in the public domain by virtue of common public use over a long period of time, where title to the right-of-way is indeterminate; although considered to be part of the SLS System, due to the lack of title to the right-of-way, delta roads are eligible only for routine maintenance and may not necessarily meet the standards set for SLS routes; the State assumed sole responsibility for maintenance of delta roads in l966 and is currently eliminating this classification by either including these roads in the county route system or removing them from the State road inventory, depending on their current use."
"...the delta road marker has a black number inside a white triangle on a green background..."
http://www.millenniumhwy.net/wvroads/system.pdf
Is this the same with the shield modified?
Quote from: NE2 on July 01, 2013, 07:39:18 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gribblenation.com%2Fwvpics%2Fvaried%2Ftruck-carwv82.jpg&hash=7bfad800c904ef3396ad8625376fd987d8276a80)
I've never heard of a "CAR" bannered route before.
I guess if east-is-to-west, then car-is-to-truck...Sorta.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 01, 2013, 05:44:43 PM
ha, yeah, I edited my post to say "not 857; that's the only one I have seen a circle shield for".
any others?
I have seen, and have photographed, the following:
CR 120, off US 52 in the southern part of the state between Bluefield and Welch.
CR 56, at the I-77/US 33/WV 2 exit.
CR 21, fully posted from Charleston to Parkersburg.
CR 151, which is old US 33 between Buckhannon and Elkins.
CR 73, which is old WV 73 between Fairmont and Morgantown.
Quote from: Steve on July 01, 2013, 07:44:46 PM
Non-fractionals are signed often enough that it's really not worth mentioning. I've never seen a standalone fractional shield, only on green signs, although one of those "Funded by XX Agency" signs had one with a black square background as if a shield.
I actually think I've seen one, and probably photographed it, but I'd have to go wading back through my pictures to to double-check. Can't remember where off the top of my head, however.
As of a year ago, there were three CR-3 shields on the Brandonville Pike (Preston County), 2 in one direction, 1 the other, in between I-68 and Terra Alta. None had cardinal direction banners.
http://goo.gl/maps/F0ZUR (http://goo.gl/maps/F0ZUR)
Quote from: Steve on July 01, 2013, 08:01:33 PM
Quote from: NE2 on July 01, 2013, 07:50:20 PM
What the crap? Do these actually exist?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fc%2Fcf%2FHome_Access_Road_Fractional_Sign.png%2F240px-Home_Access_Road_Fractional_Sign.png&hash=141056424ed37369aa08c8d638ae3d4bbe08ffa3)
I have never seen that. Wiki FTL.
I've never seen HARP roads on standalone signage. They are basically just driveways, so there would be no real point in that. All the HARP signage is done in conjunction with the road name (like WVDOH's standard county route name sign).
Actually I'm asking whether fractional HARPs exist.
Quote from: formulanone on July 01, 2013, 08:34:07 PM
Quote from: NE2 on July 01, 2013, 07:39:18 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gribblenation.com%2Fwvpics%2Fvaried%2Ftruck-carwv82.jpg&hash=7bfad800c904ef3396ad8625376fd987d8276a80)
I've never heard of a "CAR" bannered route before.
I guess if east-is-to-west, then car-is-to-truck...Sorta.
They are trying to heavily emphasize that (normal, actual) CR 82 heading down into the New River Gorge is for cars only, not trucks. The road is built into the side of a cliff. A truck of any significance would get hung up and be very difficult to remove.
Quote from: NE2 on July 10, 2013, 10:27:50 AM
Actually I'm asking whether fractional HARPs exist.
They do. They're just not posted on standalone shield-only signage.
Some counties seem to use whole numbers for their HARP routes. Some counties use fractions (where they are generally all numbered 70x/yy, no matter the route they physically branch off from). There doesn't seem to be a consistent pattern.
Pretty sure I've seen factional HARP numbers in some of the eastern WV counties. But in my travels, aside from 857, I have not seen a standalone county route shield. The county routes are posted on what are effectively streetblade signs (as they also include the street/road name).
Quote from: hbelkins on June 27, 2013, 10:44:27 PM
I've only seen a couple of "delta route" markers in all my WV travels. One was off of WV 49 south of Matewan; the other was off of CR 857 between Cheat Lake and the Pennsylvania state line.
I believe there might be one in Jane Lew, although it might be renumbered to a fractional route.
Quote from: froggie on July 14, 2013, 03:21:54 AM
Pretty sure I've seen factional HARP numbers in some of the eastern WV counties. But in my travels, aside from 857, I have not seen a standalone county route shield. The county routes are posted on what are effectively streetblade signs (as they also include the street/road name).
CR 21 (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=38.375308,-81.665497&spn=0.02419,0.049567&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=38.375356,-81.665383&panoid=4suJbKHsfe5tzg0GX_mjgg&cbp=12,35.71,,0,5.8), CR 120 (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=37.331309,-81.306231&spn=0.006134,0.012392&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=37.331238,-81.306148&panoid=mljyvjz6RzSBd1ip-kplUA&cbp=12,5.03,,0,9.47), CR 151 (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=38.944657,-79.954591&spn=0.011999,0.024784&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.944734,-79.954508&panoid=geJLOsdk8gPiPrvYzWUlkQ&cbp=12,240.18,,1,1.53). CR 21 is of course old US 21; CR 120 and CR 151 are major enough to get control cities (http://www.transportation.wv.gov/highways/traffic/TEDs/TED220.pdf) (as are a few others; also note that some of the listed routes, e.g. WV 204, were never upgraded to primary).
[edit]Another one: CR 17 (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=37.546755,-80.314393&spn=0.024328,0.049567&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=37.546609,-80.314662&panoid=ORe_-Cb2DPBWzaru57Hh1w&cbp=12,258.1,,0,4.61) (connects two parts of a Virginia Byway)
Also CR 73 (former WV 73). Signed with a standalone route marker in at least one place; on US 119 southbound climbing the hill out of Morgantown. Had the hardest time getting a picture of it because of driving rainstorms at least twice, but I finally succeeded.
Reading the list that NE2 posted the link for, there are a number of state primary routes listed that I don't recall seeing on maps. i know that some of them aren't posted with route markers (such as WV 6 or the east end bridge in Huntington).
Also, LSR? Never seen that abbreviation for county routes before. Any ideas what it means?
On the control cities link, why would I-64 need Williamsport, MD as a control city?
Quote from: amroad17 on October 17, 2014, 03:32:57 AM
On the control cities link, why would I-64 need Williamsport, MD as a control city?
Obvious cockup; look at what route's in the right column.
Yes. For US 11 instead.
Quote from: Alps on July 01, 2013, 08:01:33 PM
Quote from: NE2 on July 01, 2013, 07:50:20 PM
What the crap? Do these actually exist?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fc%2Fcf%2FHome_Access_Road_Fractional_Sign.png%2F240px-Home_Access_Road_Fractional_Sign.png&hash=141056424ed37369aa08c8d638ae3d4bbe08ffa3)
I have never seen that. Wiki FTL.
Major thread-bump, but it turns out they're the real deal.
Here's one alongside US 11 in Marlowe / Falling Water, and there were several more:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48918529102_cf6f9b55f0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hwLfpy)
Quote from: formulanone on October 18, 2019, 07:35:13 AM
Quote from: Alps on July 01, 2013, 08:01:33 PM
Quote from: NE2 on July 01, 2013, 07:50:20 PM
What the crap? Do these actually exist?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fc%2Fcf%2FHome_Access_Road_Fractional_Sign.png%2F240px-Home_Access_Road_Fractional_Sign.png&hash=141056424ed37369aa08c8d638ae3d4bbe08ffa3)
I have never seen that. Wiki FTL.
Major thread-bump, but it turns out they're the real deal.
Here's one alongside US 11 in Marlowe / Falling Water, and there were several more:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48918529102_cf6f9b55f0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hwLfpy)
Those are called "HARP" routes. Basically, glorified driveways serving more than one home. SP Cook has the details on how they came into being. They're close to, but not exactly, a successor to the "delta" routes that WV used to post.
Quote from: SP Cook on June 29, 2013, 07:07:14 AM
There are no more Delta routes in WV. The political history is that there was a big federal government take everybody to jail event in the 1960s at the then called State Road Department. In WV there are a lot of roads that just developed. Coal company built it, early settlers built it, railroad built it, whatever. People live there, somebody has to keep it up and, as noted, WV has no real county highway departments, "County" (the circle signed routes) is just a lesser quality (generally) state highway. So, the state was in the practice of fixing all of these back roads, but there was no accounting. A "road" a crew "fixed" might be some pol's driveway, or might just be "we took the gravel and sold it and split the cash". Since there was no way to account, there was no way to check. So, as a result of the investigation, they came up with the "Delta" route, which were roads to which the state made no right of way claim but which none-the-less repaired by the state. All road work has to be "charged off" to a route number and a mileage. So, if you say you did X to Delta 78, 3 miles from the JCT of CR 6/89, then an inspector can go look at it and there better be X there. However, this was just a short term way to get the corruption under control. By the mid 70s all Delta routes were either established right of way in the state and became County routes, or were abandoned and no longer are under state maintainance. Any Delta signage you see today is just old signage that never got taken down.
As to the "pentagon", this is not the standard county route pentagon sign used in most states, which has equal sides and rounded corners. Its supposed to be a picture of a little house (think monopoly houses) with unequal sides and sharp corners. The program was under a single term governor, Underwood. The program was called "HARP", for Home Access Roads Program. It was all politics. People up a holler, or in a subdivision, filled out a petition and got a sign and "maintain at the current standard" status. There was no right of way check. The next gov cancelled it on day one. But the state is stuck with all of these HARPs, which it has to keep up. Technically, they are County routes, you would account for work on one as "County HARP 456" for example.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 01, 2013, 05:35:42 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 28, 2013, 08:25:55 PM
Very few WV county routes have standalone shields. Most are signed with the road name and the arrow in a rectangular green sign. They have always been signed like this dating back to my memory in the 60s.
now that I think about it, I have not ever seen a standalone shield for a fractional route. just green signs.
anyone got a photo of a standalone?
Ask and ye shall receive, eons later.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millenniumhwy.net%2F2007_SWPA_meeting%2FImages%2F166.jpg&hash=b849c6cfcc9d4ecb44f7b1f7f92faad7b2ab42f6)
Yeah, I have seen the fractional HARP route before and "glorified driveway" was an exaggeration. One particular one I saw was a two-track with some gravel on it.
Thread bump because I found one in the field...
This is off WV 28 just outside Romney. It is a full-size fractional route reassurance shield, a circle inside a normal WV state route marker (the GMSV is 4 years old - the black fill-in between circle and edges of sign has faded out a lot more). Looks to be from the 1970s:
https://goo.gl/maps/82s7QnxYnSY4uMZf7
Here's a more recent one (2000's), complete with directional banner: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3326419,-77.8559175,3a,15y,341.29h,92.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWbDNuj8IV10qYb42HQGrgA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://goo.gl/maps/9AsypVUnfCfZrfw2A
Nine over nine?
Quote from: roadman65 on February 23, 2021, 03:30:09 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/9AsypVUnfCfZrfw2A
Nine over nine?
9th Spur of Route 9.
They even have a 1/1 on US 11:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49143266883_f821a6f1d7_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hSC67T)
This on I64 might give a few people the slip, but they named the road.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/3932/33029408474_ac9f6f448f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/SjGmpU)
Quote from: formulanone on February 23, 2021, 04:14:12 PM
This on I64 might give a few people the slip, but they named the road.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/3932/33029408474_ac9f6f448f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/SjGmpU)
This one is different. We lived off of the far end of Roxalana Road back in the early 1960s. Unlike the other examples here, the designation 25/25 is not 25th spur. Before I-64 was completed to Dunbar, Roxalana Road was signed as Alt WV-25. Being that WV-25 was the "main road" out of North Charleston and old US-35 (now WV-62) was the "back road", Roxalana was a good bypass to avoid the extra congestion in Dunbar coming off the (then) Dunbar Toll Bridge. In a different thread, there is a number of posts about traffic problems on I-64. But before I-64 was completed to South Charleston, the worst of the traffic congestion from the west was on both Dunbar Avenue (WV-25) and Roxalana before hitting the four-lane Seventh Avenue.
In a nutshell, Kanawha CR-25/25 is a nod to its former state route numbering.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on February 23, 2021, 08:06:22 PM
Quote from: formulanone on February 23, 2021, 04:14:12 PM
This on I64 might give a few people the slip, but they named the road.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/3932/33029408474_ac9f6f448f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/SjGmpU)
This one is different. We lived off of the far end of Roxalana Road back in the early 1960s. Unlike the other examples here, the designation 25/25 is not 25th spur. Before I-64 was completed to Dunbar, Roxalana Road was signed as Alt WV-25. Being that WV-25 was the "main road" out of North Charleston and old US-35 (now WV-62) was the "back road", Roxalana was a good bypass to avoid the extra congestion in Dunbar coming off the (then) Dunbar Toll Bridge. In a different thread, there is a number of posts about traffic problems on I-64. But before I-64 was completed to South Charleston, the worst of the traffic congestion from the west was on both Dunbar Avenue (WV-25) and Roxalana before hitting the four-lane Seventh Avenue.
In a nutshell, Kanawha CR-25/25 is a nod to its former state route numbering.
WVDOH has done the same thing with parts of old WV 73. CR 73 (no fraction) is used in Monongalia and Marion counties between Morgantown and Fairmont. CR 73/73 was used on two other sections south of White Hall (Marion/Taylor/Harrison Counties) and east of Coopers Rock (Monongalia/Preston Counties) to avoid conflicting with the existing CR 73 sections.
When county routes are renumbered to avoid conflicts, DOH normally just seems to use the next available fraction. CR 68 in Monongalia County became CR 68/7 to avoid conflicting with I-68. CR 33 in Randolph County was changed to a child of a different route, CR 37/8, altogether to avoid conflicting with US 33.
Quote from: Bitmapped on February 23, 2021, 10:29:28 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on February 23, 2021, 08:06:22 PM
Quote from: formulanone on February 23, 2021, 04:14:12 PM
This on I64 might give a few people the slip, but they named the road.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/3932/33029408474_ac9f6f448f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/SjGmpU)
This one is different. We lived off of the far end of Roxalana Road back in the early 1960s. Unlike the other examples here, the designation 25/25 is not 25th spur. Before I-64 was completed to Dunbar, Roxalana Road was signed as Alt WV-25. Being that WV-25 was the "main road" out of North Charleston and old US-35 (now WV-62) was the "back road", Roxalana was a good bypass to avoid the extra congestion in Dunbar coming off the (then) Dunbar Toll Bridge. In a different thread, there is a number of posts about traffic problems on I-64. But before I-64 was completed to South Charleston, the worst of the traffic congestion from the west was on both Dunbar Avenue (WV-25) and Roxalana before hitting the four-lane Seventh Avenue.
In a nutshell, Kanawha CR-25/25 is a nod to its former state route numbering.
WVDOH has done the same thing with parts of old WV 73. CR 73 (no fraction) is used in Monongalia and Marion counties between Morgantown and Fairmont. CR 73/73 was used on two other sections south of White Hall (Marion/Taylor/Harrison Counties) and east of Coopers Rock (Monongalia/Preston Counties) to avoid conflicting with the existing CR 73 sections.
When county routes are renumbered to avoid conflicts, DOH normally just seems to use the next available fraction. CR 68 in Monongalia County became CR 68/7 to avoid conflicting with I-68. CR 33 in Randolph County was changed to a child of a different route, CR 37/8, altogether to avoid conflicting with US 33.
Interesting that they use same-number fractions for old alignments or to resolve number conflicts.
Quote from: formulanone on February 24, 2021, 06:29:44 AM
Interesting that they use same-number fractions for old alignments or to resolve number conflicts.
No, the term "fractional" is something that we old Roadgeeks coined back in the MTR days. West Virginia simply uses a "hyphenated" method of numbering that is displayed this way. The top number is the same as the "main road", and the bottom number is the number for the "side road".
I grew up on CR-33/3, the third branch off the "main road" CR-33. Back then, all of the roads were mostly dirt roads. You didn't need stop signs because the "side roads" were marked. Shortly after the DOH paved my road, there was a terrible accident where a driver from Ohio ran through the intersection near my house because there was no stop sign (nor anyplace safe to put one). Teays Valley Hardware lost it's side parking lot and permanent closed its side door on the lower level to customers in order to allow a stop sign to be erected. This is now across from the end of the relocated US-35.
Other than same-numbered routes like 25/25, what high-numbered WV fractions can simplify to low numbers, such as (example; probably doesn't exist) 43/86?
(Yes, I know they're not actually fractions.)
One of NE2's quotes in the "route numbers that are 4" thread:
Quote from: NE2 on October 30, 2013, 06:19:57 PM
Quote from: Takumi on October 30, 2013, 06:15:52 PM
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-KT6HwASDzNg/T7qlj2vCz2I/AAAAAAAACVU/ZVTt1pH1TCc/s816/DSC00873.JPG)
The reciprocal of bike is not 4.
Quote from: formulanone on February 24, 2021, 06:29:44 AM
Interesting that they use same-number fractions for old alignments or to resolve number conflicts.
Interesting that putting
two 25s is supposed to make people
not think it's 25...
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2021, 10:49:57 AM
Quote from: formulanone on February 24, 2021, 06:29:44 AM
Interesting that they use same-number fractions for old alignments or to resolve number conflicts.
Interesting that putting two 25s is supposed to make people not think it's 25...
County route numbers aren't really used for navigation. They're posted, but mostly just used for DOH's internal purposes. It's not uncommon for numbers to change seemingly randomly along a corridor because of road abandonments and realignments since the numbers were initially designated in 1933.
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2021, 10:49:57 AM
Quote from: formulanone on February 24, 2021, 06:29:44 AM
Interesting that they use same-number fractions for old alignments or to resolve number conflicts.
Interesting that putting two 25s is supposed to make people not think it's 25...
The Dunbar exit on the opposite side of the road, on eastbound I-64, is for WV 25. The eastbound ramp exits onto WV 25; the westbound ramp onto CR 25/25.
Quote from: Bitmapped on February 24, 2021, 12:36:03 PM
County route numbers aren't really used for navigation. They're posted, but mostly just used for DOH's internal purposes. It's not uncommon for numbers to change seemingly randomly along a corridor because of road abandonments and realignments since the numbers were initially designated in 1933.
Indeed. The road to my grandfather's home area is CR 7 in Lincoln County. Somewhere along the line, near the Sias community where the Elkinses lived, CR 7 turns off the through route, which continues as CR 46. There's no indication the route changes numbers.
https://goo.gl/maps/85Un1bagNriHEQmZ8
Quote from: Bitmapped on February 24, 2021, 12:36:03 PM
County route numbers aren't really used for navigation. They're posted, but mostly just used for DOH's internal purposes. It's not uncommon for numbers to change seemingly randomly along a corridor because of road abandonments and realignments since the numbers were initially designated in 1933.
My nephew lives on a cross-county road that changes name three times. But the road is numbered as follows: CR-34/8, CR-5/3, CR-11, back to CR-34/8, CR-7/1, CR-7 and finally CR-10 (and IIRC the map is missing something). Other branches off this road share the old name. In one location, the "main road" does a TOTSO right and later TOTSO left but still maintains its name and number. It took several times of follow-the-leader to get the hang of it.
He also lives on a shared driveway that also has a route number assigned, and his driveway has the same route number which includes the cowpath up to his barn and beyond. There are two farm gates and two permanent barbed wire fencelines across this "route". There is no evidence of this road on the back side of his property. Old maps actually show this road going up into the next county, even though at least 2 miles of the road was abandoned by 1930 or so.
How do you pronounce these? Would "902/81" be "902 over 81", "902 dash 81", "nine-oh-two-eighty-one", or what?
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 25, 2021, 12:07:21 AM
How do you pronounce these? Would "902/81" be "902 over 81", "902 dash 81", "nine-oh-two-eighty-one", or what?
Yep. We always said "902 over 81". Except the numbering wouldn't get so extreme. You'll get some big numbers in the "numerator" for branches off 3dUS routes (US-119, US-219, US-220, US-250, US-340 and US-522), plus high-numbered routes carried over from adjacent states (like off of LSR-857 in the Morgantown area). For the "denominator" there are typically less than 10 branches to any "main road", unless it crosses the entire county. On the other hand, there are often many branches and loops off of U.S. routes and state routes. You might have only four branches off of CR-1 in a particular county (CR-1/1 thru CR-1/4), it might have 48 branches off an U.S. route that runs across its entire length (CR-60/1 thru CR-60/49). Plus any branches or loops numbered after something else. But like Bitmapped said, those numbers are not used for navigation; instead they are used by the DOH for accounting purposes.
[The terms "numerator" and "denominator" were coined by Roadgeeks back in the MTR days].
Oh, oh, oh. And before the days of street names and E-911, many of these back roads had "farmer names" such as: "left at the old Turner place", "the road over to Exchange", "the right fork up the holler", etc. Most of these got different names after E-911, which confused all of the locals.
I've never heard anyone use the fractions in any conversation - always the road names. The state does a pretty good job with signing those at least.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on February 25, 2021, 08:52:02 AM
Oh, oh, oh. And before the days of street names and E-911, many of these back roads had "farmer names" such as: "left at the old Turner place", "the road over to Exchange", "the right fork up the holler", etc. Most of these got different names after E-911, which confused all of the locals.
:) I remember getting directions to a friend's farm back in western Kansas, and part of the directions was to turn on "the last road before seven-mile hill". And I knew exactly which road that was. Yeah, it has a blue pentagon with a number on it, but who pays attention to things like that!
I should amend my post - a lot use road names. But just as frequently you'll hear "turn left by the old Pizza Hut" (especially in Pittsburgh) or "go down the creek a bit and turn left at the gravel road" (more frequent in the hills).
These sorts of directions even made it to 99% Invisible, my favorite podcast for all things nerd: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/u-t-b-a-p-h/ (check out the audio at around 2:00)
Quote from: seicer on February 25, 2021, 09:31:01 AM
I've never heard anyone use the fractions in any conversation - always the road names. The state does a pretty good job with signing those at least.
This is correct. The only people that will EVER say the number of such a route (and they would say it like "9 over 6") would be DOH employees. Private individuals, and even the ambulance services and cops, will always use the name of the road.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on February 25, 2021, 08:52:02 AM
Oh, oh, oh. And before the days of street names and E-911, many of these back roads had "farmer names" such as: "left at the old Turner place", "the road over to Exchange", "the right fork up the holler", etc. Most of these got different names after E-911, which confused all of the locals.
Quote from: kphoger on February 25, 2021, 10:56:32 AM
:) I remember getting directions to a friend's farm back in western Kansas, and part of the directions was to turn on "the last road before seven-mile hill". And I knew exactly which road that was. Yeah, it has a blue pentagon with a number on it, but who pays attention to things like that!
My wife (who is from North Carolina) laughs at me. I always gave simple instructions to get to our place, but once we had a friend who went straight through a TOTSO intersection where the road straight ahead is unpaved. Since then, I've gone back to the old West Virginia phrase "stay on the paved road".
Quote from: formulanone on February 23, 2021, 04:14:12 PM
They even have a 1/1 on US 11:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49143266883_f821a6f1d7_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hSC67T)
I thought that was an aspirin marker or something....... :-D :-D :-D