Wisconsin State Journal: Proposed bill would let towns veto roundabouts

[silverback1065]

roundabouts are great, they are safer than traffic lights, and are better than 4way stops.  They are here to stay and people need to get used to them, rather than complain about them all the time.

[pianocello]

roundabouts are great, they are safer than traffic lights, and are better than 4way stops.  They are here to stay and people need to get used to them, rather than complain about them all the time.

Ehh... It depends on location. But yeah, as much as we want to see some of the existing roundabouts go (I'm looking at you, Valpo), there's nothing we can do about them.

(Don't get me wrong, I think a roundabout used efficiently in a good location, like the northeast side of Bettendorf, IA, is a wonderful thing)


iPhone

[tchafe1978]

I like roundabouts, but I worry more about other drivers who don't know how to use them. Like the time a saw a college student talking on her cellphone go the wrong way through one, coming directly at me in the wrong lanes. Since when do you ever "keep left"?

[DaBigE]

roundabouts are great, they are safer than traffic lights, and are better than 4way stops.  They are here to stay and people need to get used to them, rather than complain about them all the time.

I agree to an extent, however, roundabouts are not a silver bullet. There are some intersections where they don't belong. "Right tool for the right job," as my middle school shop teacher would say.

I like roundabouts, but I worry more about other drivers who don't know how to use them. Like the time a saw a college student talking on her cellphone go the wrong way through one, coming directly at me in the wrong lanes. Since when do you ever "keep left"?

Diverging Diamond?

[silverback1065]

Exactly what I was saying. I just hate it when people think the ones they add are bad and unnecessary.  All the intersections I've seen them at where I live (indy) were warrented. I really hate it when armchair engineers try to dictate what real engineers do

[SEWIGuy]

Exactly what I was saying. I just hate it when people think the ones they add are bad and unnecessary.  All the intersections I've seen them at where I live (indy) were warrented. I really hate it when armchair engineers try to dictate what real engineers do

But the problem is that in Wisconsin they have bordered on overuse IMO.  An example is the new Highway 59 routing in Milton that has roundabouts at the bottom of both WI-26 exit ramps, and well as just east where it intersects with Rock County M.

I have yet to see traffic at any of these intersections that couldn't have been handled by a simple stop sign.

[DaBigE]

Exactly what I was saying. I just hate it when people think the ones they add are bad and unnecessary.  All the intersections I've seen them at where I live (indy) were warrented. I really hate it when armchair engineers try to dictate what real engineers do

I have yet to see traffic at any of these intersections that couldn't have been handled by a simple stop sign.

That may be true today, but before an intersection is built or redesigned, they look at how it's going to work with 20-year traffic projections.

[SEWIGuy]

Exactly what I was saying. I just hate it when people think the ones they add are bad and unnecessary.  All the intersections I've seen them at where I live (indy) were warrented. I really hate it when armchair engineers try to dictate what real engineers do

I have yet to see traffic at any of these intersections that couldn't have been handled by a simple stop sign.

That may be true today, but before an intersection is built or redesigned, they look at how it's going to work with 20-year traffic projections.

So you are going to go through the expense of installing something completely unnecessary today because of something that *might* be needed 20 years from now?  You would never install stoplights at an intersection now because of traffic projections 20 years out.  Why do this now?

[silverback1065]

So you suggest doing nothing?  How do you know its unessessary? Literally every construction project is done using projections for the future so if we follow by your logic we wouldn't have any of the freeway upgrades we have now because when the interstates were first built you could argue they werent necessary but that is completely different now.

[SEWIGuy]

So you suggest doing nothing?  How do you know its unessessary? Literally every construction project is done using projections for the future so if we follow by your logic we wouldn't have any of the freeway upgrades we have now because when the interstates were first built you could argue they werent necessary but that is completely different now.

Strawman argument.  Intersection control devices are easier to "upgrade" than entire freeways.

If you obtain the ROW, you can easily install a roundabout if projections turn out to be accurate.

[silverback1065]

So if we follow your logic we would be waiting 20 years for something that could have been done on day one with a projection. My arguement isnt a strawman you're just perpetuating the same bs arguement that all of these armchair engineers have.

[silverback1065]

Row isn't easy to aquire either

[DaBigE]

Exactly what I was saying. I just hate it when people think the ones they add are bad and unnecessary.  All the intersections I've seen them at where I live (indy) were warrented. I really hate it when armchair engineers try to dictate what real engineers do

I have yet to see traffic at any of these intersections that couldn't have been handled by a simple stop sign.

That may be true today, but before an intersection is built or redesigned, they look at how it's going to work with 20-year traffic projections.

So you are going to go through the expense of installing something completely unnecessary today because of something that *might* be needed 20 years from now?  You would never install stoplights at an intersection now because of traffic projections 20 years out.  Why do this now?

I never said it was the right or wrong way of doing things. Regardless, those are the rules we have to work with when completing an ICE report. Twenty-year traffic forecasts aren't much better than a long-range weather forecast, IMO. I even question 5-year projections, especially for new developments. The W Main Street corridor in Sun Prairie is a prime example (west of US 151). Three multi-lane roundabouts were installed ~7 years ago because that was supposed to support a lot of new commercial growth in that corridor. Today, except for a fire/police station and a paint store, nothing has developed along the corridor. Everything has happened around CTH C @ US 151 and CTH C and WIS 19.

If diverging diamonds prove successful, expect to see more of those at freeway ramp terminals, as they are much more friendly for OSOW vehicles than a roundabout.

[silverback1065]

Fair enough what I'm saying is I'm sick of people coming up with all of these reasons to hate roundabouts they don't put them in to punish us! They work well in a lot of places!

[SEWIGuy]

So if we follow your logic we would be waiting 20 years for something that could have been done on day one with a projection. My arguement isnt a strawman you're just perpetuating the same bs arguement that all of these armchair engineers have.

No...we *could* be waiting 20 years to do something.  Traffic projections aren't written in stone.

Fair enough what I'm saying is I'm sick of people coming up with all of these reasons to hate roundabouts they don't put them in to punish us! They work well in a lot of places!

Agree completely.  But then they should be used in those places.

[silverback1065]

Ya 20 yr projections arent at all perfect but I really don't see anything better

[SEWIGuy]

Exactly what I was saying. I just hate it when people think the ones they add are bad and unnecessary.  All the intersections I've seen them at where I live (indy) were warrented. I really hate it when armchair engineers try to dictate what real engineers do

I have yet to see traffic at any of these intersections that couldn't have been handled by a simple stop sign.

That may be true today, but before an intersection is built or redesigned, they look at how it's going to work with 20-year traffic projections.

So you are going to go through the expense of installing something completely unnecessary today because of something that *might* be needed 20 years from now?  You would never install stoplights at an intersection now because of traffic projections 20 years out.  Why do this now?

I never said it was the right or wrong way of doing things. Regardless, those are the rules we have to work with when completing an ICE report. Twenty-year traffic forecasts aren't much better than a long-range weather forecast, IMO. I even question 5-year projections, especially for new developments. The W Main Street corridor in Sun Prairie is a prime example (west of US 151). Three multi-lane roundabouts were installed ~7 years ago because that was supposed to support a lot of new commercial growth in that corridor. Today, except for a fire/police station and a paint store, nothing has developed along the corridor. Everything has happened around CTH C @ US 151 and CTH C and WIS 19.

If diverging diamonds prove successful, expect to see more of those at freeway ramp terminals, as they are much more friendly for OSOW vehicles than a roundabout.

That makes sense and I understand where you are coming from.

[Arkansastravelguy]

I hate roundabouts or traffic circles or circles from hell or whatever you want to call them. They don't improve traffic flow from what I've seen and they are like Arkansas drivers in the snow: they just can't figure out how to drive in them without wrecking someone.


iPhone

[SEWIGuy]

Roundabounts used in the right situation do indeed improve traffic flow.  For instance, they have been used as part of the US-41 upgrades in Oshkosh and have loosened up traffic considerably.

[mgk920]

Roundabounts used in the right situation do indeed improve traffic flow.  For instance, they have been used as part of the US-41 upgrades in Oshkosh and have loosened up traffic considerably.

Ditto in Neenah (US(I)-41/Breezewood-Bell - interchange 129 and in the Winneconne Ave (WI 114)/Green Bay Rd area) and in Appleton (east end of College Ave Fox River bridge).



Mike

[DaBigE]

Roundabounts used in the right situation do indeed improve traffic flow.  For instance, they have been used as part of the US-41 upgrades in Oshkosh and have loosened up traffic considerably.

Ditto in Neenah (US(I)-41/Breezewood-Bell - interchange 129 and in the Winneconne Ave (WI 114)/Green Bay Rd area) and in Appleton (east end of College Ave Fox River bridge).




Mike

Except for the last one, I had a small part in each of those intersections you listed. For those that despise roundabouts can feel comfort in the fact you will probably never see that many go in as part of one project ever again, (IIRC, the total number of roundabouts associated with the 41 project is in the low-mid 40s). You also will probably not see another roundabout with a 3-lane entry constructed in the state of Wisconsin for a long time (except for a couple still currently in the design phase--Appleton will be home to one of the last ones).

[mgk920]

Roundabounts used in the right situation do indeed improve traffic flow.  For instance, they have been used as part of the US-41 upgrades in Oshkosh and have loosened up traffic considerably.

Ditto in Neenah (US(I)-41/Breezewood-Bell - interchange 129 and in the Winneconne Ave (WI 114)/Green Bay Rd area) and in Appleton (east end of College Ave Fox River bridge).




Mike

Except for the last one, I had a small part in each of those intersections you listed. For those that despise roundabouts can feel comfort in the fact you will probably never see that many go in as part of one project ever again, (IIRC, the total number of roundabouts associated with the 41 project is in the low-mid 40s). You also will probably not see another roundabout with a 3-lane entry constructed in the state of Wisconsin for a long time (except for a couple still currently in the design phase--Appleton will be home to one of the last ones).

Is this because DDIs are now part of the mix of design options?

Mike

[silverback1065]

I hate roundabouts or traffic circles or circles from hell or whatever you want to call them. They don't improve traffic flow from what I've seen and they are like Arkansas drivers in the snow: they just can't figure out how to drive in them without wrecking someone.


iPhone

They don't improve traffic where you live because the people don't know how to use them, it was like this in my area too.  Once people get used to them, things will get better.  Roundabouts really are safer and better where the data says they are warranted.  4 way stops are awful.

[DaBigE]

Roundabounts used in the right situation do indeed improve traffic flow.  For instance, they have been used as part of the US-41 upgrades in Oshkosh and have loosened up traffic considerably.

Ditto in Neenah (US(I)-41/Breezewood-Bell - interchange 129 and in the Winneconne Ave (WI 114)/Green Bay Rd area) and in Appleton (east end of College Ave Fox River bridge).




Mike

Except for the last one, I had a small part in each of those intersections you listed. For those that despise roundabouts can feel comfort in the fact you will probably never see that many go in as part of one project ever again, (IIRC, the total number of roundabouts associated with the 41 project is in the low-mid 40s). You also will probably not see another roundabout with a 3-lane entry constructed in the state of Wisconsin for a long time (except for a couple still currently in the design phase--Appleton will be home to one of the last ones).

Is this because DDIs are now part of the mix of design options?

Mike

Regarding three-laners: Not directly, at least outside of OSOW routes. The latest trends still show an upward trend in the number of crashes as the number of lanes increases. Granted, while they're fender-benders and not severe injury/fatalities, it still a number the state is not exactly thrilled about. The Winneconne Ave/Green Bay Rd intersection in Neenah has seen its share of crashes since it opened, which has prompted many an editorial in the local papers. That said, an overwhelming majority of the crashes were/are due to failure to yield and not following the proper lanes. Three-laners won't really be considered again until the trend reverses.

IF drivers would just follow the rules of the road, roundabouts would gain a much better reputation, much faster. However, that's not to say that there aren't bad roundabout designs out there.

Regarding the total number of roundabouts as part of one project, I doubt we'll see another project on the scale of the 41 project for a long time.

[mgk920]

'OSOW'?

Mike