Interesting new California style of freeway junction exit number signing

[TheStranger]

There is plenty of precedent for this too (Temp I-15 on Hammer Avenue/Route 31, Temp/State Route 215, and of course State Route 15 on 40th Street in San Diego)...which may not matter because I could see South Pasadena kvetching anyway.

let 'em.  progress is awesome.  luddites are not.  if your house is about to go, accept the generous buyout and move on.  I was talking to a friend of mine whose business is about to be bought by Caltrans to build a segment of CA-58/I-40, and he told me that they were very reasonable in their negotiations and offered a very fair eminent domain buyout deal. 

I suspect that rural areas have populations much more willing to friendly negotiate eminent domain, as opposed to say San Francisco (the actual "no freeways can be added" deal in local law there) or metro Los Angeles (think of how long I-105 took to build, let alone 710).  For some reason, San Diego only really had to deal with that when 15 was built on 40th Street, and when 252 was canceled - a rather small amount of disputed mileage for a city of over a million residents.

[agentsteel53]

I suspect that rural areas have populations much more willing to friendly negotiate eminent domain, as opposed to say San Francisco (the actual "no freeways can be added" deal in local law there) or metro Los Angeles (think of how long I-105 took to build, let alone 710).  For some reason, San Diego only really had to deal with that when 15 was built on 40th Street, and when 252 was canceled - a rather small amount of disputed mileage for a city of over a million residents.

well, San Diego County is pretty traditionally Republican ... make note of that fact as you see fit!

(not that I like the Republicans much, but between them and the Democrats they've got every idiosyncrasy and social weakness elegantly covered, with a disquietingly significant proportion of the benefits of existence left by the wayside.  Would be nice to have a major party rise from the ashes with a line just a bit more promising than "we're morons, but we'll be strong morons on your behalf!".)

[TheStranger]

Going back to the original topic...

Obviously, this new LA-style "exit tab in sign divider area" deal isn't being used universally, partially because of the general tendency for most CalTrans districts to "replace in kind" other than the addition of tabs, and also due to the inconsistency in giving junctions exit numbers to begin with.

This makes me ask...how much freedom in design do the individual districts have, and are there examples past and present of this in effect in the field?

[Scott5114]

Bizarre.  Would it kill the California Department of Transportation to use normal tabs like everyone else? ... 

Apparently it would. The concern is wind loading... apparently the exit tabs would break off in the wind.

aka "Caltrans is full of shit"?

[rschen7754]

I remember reading an article about Wabash Blvd. in the 1990's where the neighborhoods about to be destroyed became a haven for drugs and crime because people wouldn't move in...

[hm insulators]

Hmmm... your car must have a better suspension or shock absorbers that mine.    Like I said, I have trouble maintaining 65 MPH between Truckee and Donner Pass.  I do agree that concrete is the better pavement when it comes to longevity but there is a new type of asphalt being used here in the SF Bay Area to resurface the freeways.  It's called "rubberized asphalt" where they recycle old tires by grinding them up and adding it to the asphalt mix.  The result is an incredibly smooth and quiet road surface.  It also increases visibility during the rainy season because the surface is porous enough to absorb rain water and that cuts down on the amount of spray kicked up by fast moving cars.  Granted, this type of pavement is probably not meant to be used in the Sierra Nevada mountains where sub-freezing temps are common during the winter.

It would be nice if they would use the rubberized asphalt in southern California, too! Rubberized asphalt is used on the freeways in and around Phoenix and it's really nice! In fact, the city of Phoenix just within the last couple of weeks repaved 7th Street between Bethany Home Road and Northern Avenue (within a block of my apartment) with rubberized asphalt. That stretch of 7th Street has needed it for years and it's about time they did it!


[Fixed quoting. --Roadfro]

[jrouse]

they seem to have done an okay job on those 1971 porcelain exit tabs. 

then again, those porcelain signs in general are in excellent condition.  They had a design life of 30 years, and some of them are as much as 51 years old now and still going strong.  explain to me again why we have shitty Clearview retroreflective signs that last six years at most?

oh right, asphalt lobby.  and Transponder Jesus.

I wonder how wind-loading was factored into the 1971 porcelain tabs (which were all center-aligned), and if the left/right justification in today's standards affected current thinking.

(though there IS that Exit 2C Alameda Street external tab, as well as the new external overhead tabs further north on 101/Santa Ana Freeway!)

In any case, button copy/porcelain/paneled signs really represent California's "long-life" sign philosophy, which is anathema to the current "replace every five years" approach used nationally.

The wind load standard changes were recent - 2002 or 2003?  The sign trusses with the tabs in Los Angeles obviously predate that. 

When Caltrans developed the new truss structures to meet the wind load standard changes, it was stated that the structures could accommodate exit number tabs.  But a detail for mounting those tabs has not been developed.

[SignBridge]

I assume the wind-load standard was raised? That is the structures must now withstand a higher wind load than in the past? I don't understand the reasoning. Have the winds in southern Calif. increased in the 21st Century?

[jrouse]

I assume the wind-load standard was raised? That is the structures must now withstand a higher wind load than in the past? I don't understand the reasoning. Have the winds in southern Calif. increased in the 21st Century?

It was raised.  It was an AASHTO thing, not Caltrans.

[vdeane]

I assume the wind-load standard was raised? That is the structures must now withstand a higher wind load than in the past? I don't understand the reasoning. Have the winds in southern Calif. increased in the 21st Century?

I would assume so they can actually put exit numbers on the signs without cramming so much stuff into off places.  Though this would probably be much less of an issue if Caltrans actually understood what an exit tab is (even the signs that don't put exit numbers in random places have a bunch of green space to the left of where the tab would normally end).

It's too bad the MUTCD doesn't allow California to adopt a signing style similar to what Quebec does for exit numbers.  Then they wouldn't have this problem.

[J N Winkler]

I would assume so they can actually put exit numbers on the signs without cramming so much stuff into off places.  Though this would probably be much less of an issue if Caltrans actually understood what an exit tab is (even the signs that don't put exit numbers in random places have a bunch of green space to the left of where the tab would normally end).

Nope.  Joe Rouse has already said it was an AASHTO change, not something Caltrans devised to accommodate exit tabs.  I suspect it had to do with issue of an updated edition of AASHTO's structural design guide for luminaires and sign support structures and possibly also with a NCHRP report on wind buffeting of cantilever sign structures.

[HighwayMaster]

The only other exit tab style that I can see CalTrans implementing is the wide top-right text style that IDOT used in Chicago.

[Brandon]

The only other exit tab style that I can see CalTrans implementing is the wide top-right text style that IDOT used in Chicago.

And seems to be implementing across the state.  There are plenty downstate like that as well.

[CentralCAroadgeek]

Sorry to be reviving, but I was looking through my pictures and found this center-tabbed sign at the CA-210/I-215 interchange. It's the sign in the far-right:

[Alps]

That is quite possibly the ugliest standard for signage I've seen in any state, and that even includes Clearview.

[Brandon]

That is quite possibly the ugliest standard for signage I've seen in any state, and that even includes Clearview.

Agreed.  I've seen much nicer Clearview.  CalTrans seriously needs to increase their sign size to contain the information properly.

[blawp]

Yawn. More hate from the jealous.

[myosh_tino]

Yawn. More hate from the jealous.

Now, now.  They are entitled to their opinion on how we do things here.

In this case (the centered exit "tab"), I have to agree with them that the centered internal tab doesn't present the best look.  Although the connector from east 210 to south 215 is not constructed yet, I'm pretty sure underneath the greenout is the legend, shield and arrow for the south 215 exit sign.  I mean, why fabricate two signs when you can make one sign and greenout what hasn't been constructed yet.

Like I said, I'm not a fan of the centered internal tab.  Here's how I would have laid out that sign.

First, with the I-215 south portion of the sign greened out...


Once that ramp is completed and the greenout is removed...

[J N Winkler]

Once that ramp is completed and the greenout is removed...

This layout is an improvement.

I am not sure who we get to blame for the layout shown in the photo above.  I don't know the contract which has it as a new installation, but it is shown as an existing installation (presumably requiring greenout) in 08-4440U4.  This is a SANBAG contract designed by Parsons Brinckerhoff and administered by Caltrans.  I have a copy of the plans, which show other fun stuff like exit tabs taken out of the bottom of the sign panel.

[SignBridge]

I agree with JNW. The suggested revised layout looks much better. I really can't understand why Caltrans and its contractors seem to be so clumsy re: the configuration of their sign legends.

[Alps]

I'm not even referring to the exit tab necessary - the sign panels are not put together well, lines of text are too close to each other, and even the carpool lane has a problem with the "END" being so poorly located as to be easily overlooked. CA has an incredibly haphazard style of making messages fit on signs, rather than designing signs to fit the messages. That's what gets me.

[roadfro]

^ Agreed, regarding the haphazard nature of signs. CalTrans apparently has a uniform height requirement of signs on one structure and imposes maximum panel heights as well. Nevada follows suit, but they seem to use have a higher max height and use exit tabs so things don't end up nearly as cluttered. CalTrans could easily adopt some Nevada standards for new signs/structures that would help the look of their signs.

[kurumi]

I'm not even referring to the exit tab necessary - the sign panels are not put together well, lines of text are too close to each other, and even the carpool lane has a problem with the "END" being so poorly located as to be easily overlooked. CA has an incredibly haphazard style of making messages fit on signs, rather than designing signs to fit the messages. That's what gets me.

      I, ^{for one}, think you

are _being muchtoo particular

                   ^{about this}. As _long as the information

is there,

      who _{cares how} it is presented?

Love, Caltrans

[myosh_tino]

If you thought the layout of those 210 and 215 signs were bad, take a look at these two signs...


Original Sign... from the AARoads Gallery


Original Sign... from the AARoads Gallery

These signs are part of the 101-Tully Road interchange rebuild project in San Jose and were recently installed.  The drawings I made come pretty close to what is out there.  The first thing I noticed was the squeezing in of "Yerba Buena Rd" (13.3/10 legend and on two lines no less... ugh!) around a black-on-yellow arrow.  The problem is, that arrow points to an option lane.  Caltrans uses the same arrow on the Tully Road advance guide sign and, once again, that is an option lane.  I thought the use of the black-on-yellow arrow was a sign goof until I got a look at the signing plan for the project and realized it was NOT a goof... the black-on-yellow arrow was in the signing plan!  This is also the first time I've seen the use of the new 26-inch EXIT ONLY plaques (old ones were 20 inches).

I'm not really sure what the engineer was smoking when he/she designed these signs but I believe the use of a black-on-yellow arrow for an option lane is a big mistake and will lead to driver confusion.  In the past, a white-on-green down arrow was used for option lanes.

As for the layout of the Capitol Expwy advance guide sign, because traffic wanting to get to Yerba Buena Rd must use the Capitol Expwy exit, it is necessary to include it on the overhead sign but laying out a sign with that long a road name isn't easy.  I guess the old sign was about as good at it can be but the way Caltrans used two lines kind of irks me.

      I, ^{for one}, think you

are _being muchtoo particular

                   ^{about this}. As _long as the information

is there,

      who _{cares how} it is presented?

Love, Caltrans

LOL! 

[KEK Inc.]

My eyes are burning.  I grew up in San Jose, and I remember those exits quite vividly. 

Did these atrocities reach Hellyer Rd and Story Rd/I-280/I-680?