I-69 in MS

[silverback1065]

I'm jumping into this discussion very late, but I'm interested in everyone's honest opinion on this.  Do any of you all think that 69 is needed at all in Miss?

[Bobby5280]

It's not needed as long as the Great River Bridge remains unfunded. Hypothetically speaking, even if the Great River Bridge was going to get built sometime in the near future I would still have a pretty negative opinion of I-69 in Arkansas, Mississippi, Tennessee, Kentucky and Southern Indiana for the very crooked path I-69 is following through those regions. For long distance traffic I-69 will offer nothing in terms of time and mileage savings. The only reasonably straight routes I-69 will have is in Texas (and there are a few odd twists and turns there too). Older existing Interstate highways follow far more direct paths.

[silverback1065]

I don't think it's needed either, I just don't see how this will help the state.  269 looks like it will, but 69 i don't think so.

[codyg1985]

Officials probably think I-69 will open up the Mississippi delta to tourists and for economic development. US 61 already provides most of the regional mobility that I-69 would provide (with the exception of the Great River Bridge).

[sparker]

It's likely that the proposed alignment of the portion of I-69 from Shreveport to Memphis is largely a political animal.  The southern tier of Arkansas has historically been the least recognized -- as well as visited -- part of the state -- with the usual assortment of economic shortcomings endemic to such areas.  I-69 (and its 530 connection) are being promoted as a means of "kick-starting" the regional economy via enhanced access.  In Mississippi, it is principally the desire to establish the Mississippi Delta region as a historically significant area (i.e., the "home of the blues"); while US 61 is certainly able to accommodate traffic as it exists today, the extension of I-69 is seen as a way to expedite an anticipated increase in regional recreational usage (a smaller & more limited version of which has resulted in the initial I-69 deployment near Tunica, promoted a decade ago by the gaming interests in the area). 

In the long run, this segment of I-69 may function as a "relief route" for I-30/40 traffic to the north, but for now its development is predicated upon speculation and anticipation.

[silverback1065]

It's likely that the proposed alignment of the portion of I-69 from Shreveport to Memphis is largely a political animal.  The southern tier of Arkansas has historically been the least recognized -- as well as visited -- part of the state -- with the usual assortment of economic shortcomings endemic to such areas.  I-69 (and its 530 connection) are being promoted as a means of "kick-starting" the regional economy via enhanced access.  In Mississippi, it is principally the desire to establish the Mississippi Delta region as a historically significant area (i.e., the "home of the blues"); while US 61 is certainly able to accommodate traffic as it exists today, the extension of I-69 is seen as a way to expedite an anticipated increase in regional recreational usage (a smaller & more limited version of which has resulted in the initial I-69 deployment near Tunica, promoted a decade ago by the gaming interests in the area). 

In the long run, this segment of I-69 may function as a "relief route" for I-30/40 traffic to the north, but for now its development is predicated upon speculation and anticipation.

It is actually only there because of trent lott, but I'm more interested in your opinions on if it's needed rather than politics.  It doesn't seem like 69 will get built any time soon south of Memphis.  Louisiana doesn't seem interested and Mississippi has done barely anything besides the southaven area. 

[sparker]

OK -- right now, given the traffic flow between Texas and Memphis, it's probably not required; the combination of I-30 & I-40 can and do handle it adequately (although the I-40 segment between Little Rock & Memphis is starting to exhibit some congestion).  If I-69 (and/or its branch I-369) is completed in Texas and deposits considerably more traffic on that existing corridor, then it is likely that some sort of "relief route" would be appropriate; I-69, as presently planned, would be the most likely candidate to fill that bill.  Arkansas is making halting progress on their portion of the route (the nascent Monticello bypass); one of the main hangups in LA (compounded by local Shreveport politics) is lack of an agreement with TX regarding just where the route crosses the state line.  With MS it's simply a lack of $$.

Like it or not, pure, raw statistical need and politics, both local and national, are the two sides of any developmental coin.  Under most circumstances, both are needed to advance a proposal to actual implementation; but in some instances political will can -- and has -- proved enough to get a project under way (just look at NC and TX for multiple examples!).     

[Bobby5280]

I think it will take Texas completing its segments of I-69 between Houston and the LA state line at Logansport before Louisiana and Arkansas turn I-69 into a top priority. That won't happen for several years.

In Texas there is a big question of which Northerly segment of I-69 TX DOT will build first. Will they build the I-69 segment between Tenaha and Logansport before finishing I-369 between Tenaha and Texarkana? The Texarkana leg may be a higher priority. It would do more to serve Texas' own needs. And it would do more to help I-49 construction efforts between Texarkana and Fort Smith. Arkansas has other I-49 projects to complete, I-57 in NE AR, I-530 in SE AR.

Louisiana has its own priorities of I-49 projects over I-69. There's the in progress project to complete I-49 to I-220 in Shreveport, the Shreveport inter city connector, the big projects in Lafayette and the rest of I-49 South to New Orleans. I-69 would be a costly diversion to those efforts.

Best case for I-69 in Arkansas for the near future: the Warren to Monticello segment could be completed as part of finishing I-530 to serve regional traffic needs. Outside of that I-69 takes a pretty crooked, winding path. The proposed path dodges well North and West of El Dorado.

It could be possible for Mississippi to kick start I-69 projects if/when Tennessee, Kentucky and Indiana finish their I-69 projects. I think those I-69 efforts will be done to serve Memphis regional traffic more than anything else.

It will be interesting to see what the final cost will be for the Great River Bridge if/when it is ever built. With all the years of delays taking place that will give time for a lot more construction price inflation to keep boosting the price.

[silverback1065]

I think it will take Texas completing its segments of I-69 between Houston and the LA state line at Logansport before Louisiana and Arkansas turn I-69 into a top priority. That won't happen for several years.

In Texas there is a big question of which Northerly segment of I-69 TX DOT will build first. Will they build the I-69 segment between Tenaha and Logansport before finishing I-369 between Tenaha and Texarkana? The Texarkana leg may be a higher priority. It would do more to serve Texas' own needs. And it would do more to help I-49 construction efforts between Texarkana and Fort Smith. Arkansas has other I-49 projects to complete, I-57 in NE AR, I-530 in SE AR.

Louisiana has its own priorities of I-49 projects over I-69. There's the in progress project to complete I-49 to I-220 in Shreveport, the Shreveport inter city connector, the big projects in Lafayette and the rest of I-49 South to New Orleans. I-69 would be a costly diversion to those efforts.

Best case for I-69 in Arkansas for the near future: the Warren to Monticello segment could be completed as part of finishing I-530 to serve regional traffic needs. Outside of that I-69 takes a pretty crooked, winding path. The proposed path dodges well North and West of El Dorado.

It could be possible for Mississippi to kick start I-69 projects if/when Tennessee, Kentucky and Indiana finish their I-69 projects. I think those I-69 efforts will be done to serve Memphis regional traffic more than anything else.

It will be interesting to see what the final cost will be for the Great River Bridge if/when it is ever built. With all the years of delays taking place that will give time for a lot more construction price inflation to keep boosting the price.

I believe Indiana will be done with 69 in around 2020, Kentucky is almost done as well. the only hang up is the Ohio river bridge.  That is in the environmental phase.

[Bobby5280]

Kentucky is almost done with its portion of I-69, thanks to routing it mostly on existing parkways. That big, distance wasting "L" shape I-69 takes on the Western Kentucky Parkway and Pennyrile Parkway is a giant face-palm IMHO. It's one of the many turns and bends that will make I-69 a pretty ineffective relief route for other far more straight routes like I-30, I-40, I-55 and I-57. I-69 in Kentucky should have went diagonal from Henderson down to the Purchase Parkway junction with I-24. That would have made more sense.

The bendy I-69 road may serve a lot of local and regional interests okay, but it's going to be lousy for the purpose sold to taxpayers: being a main road between Mexico and Canada. I think that kind of traffic is going to stick with other far more straight routes.

[silverback1065]

Kentucky is almost done with its portion of I-69, thanks to routing it mostly on existing parkways. That big, distance wasting "L" shape I-69 takes on the Western Kentucky Parkway and Pennyrile Parkway is a giant face-palm IMHO. It's one of the many turns and bends that will make I-69 a pretty ineffective relief route for other far more straight routes like I-30, I-40, I-55 and I-57. I-69 in Kentucky should have went diagonal from Henderson down to the Purchase Parkway junction with I-24. That would have made more sense.

The bendy I-69 road may serve a lot of local and regional interests okay, but it's going to be lousy for the purpose sold to taxpayers: being a main road between Mexico and Canada. I think that kind of traffic is going to stick with other far more straight routes.

I've always thought that reason was bullshit, there are plenty of existing interstates that made that reason superfluous.  That reason was once again a political one. 

[lordsutch]

The bendy I-69 road may serve a lot of local and regional interests okay, but it's going to be lousy for the purpose sold to taxpayers: being a main road between Mexico and Canada. I think that kind of traffic is going to stick with other far more straight routes.

The reality is that most traffic doesn't take any road end-to-end; how many folks start out in Knoxville and end up in Scranton, or vice versa? How much traffic really goes from Tijuana to Vancouver and back? The point of any highway is to add connectivity and contribute to the broader network.

In any event, a direct routing from Calvert City to Henderson really wouldn't save much time. A straight line routing would be about 28 miles shorter, but realistically any new route would have involved serving Marion and Morganfield at least, increasing the mileage; moreover, I doubt Kentucky would have sprung for new crossings of the Tennessee and Cumberland rivers, so the distance savings would be substantially less.

[silverback1065]

the sole reason the the routing in kentucky was it was cheaper. they studied a new terrain route, and it was deemed too expensive.  it think that it is fine where it ended up.

[The Ghostbuster]

Interstate 69 in LA, MS and AR will likely be the last portions of Interstate 69 to be constructed, if at all.

[Grzrd]

With the election season nearing an end, it looks like MDOT is already lobbying to try and get more money from the state legislature. This Oct. 31 article reports that Transportation Commissioner Mike Tagert says that all new capacity projects will end in 2018 unless new money is provided:

The Mississippi Department of Transportation will be forced to end all projects aimed at expanding highway capacity after 2018, Transportation Commissioner Mike Tagert said at a Mississippi Today event Friday at Millsaps College.
"After the year 2018, we will not have any new construction in our state based on the current projections,"  Tagert said, noting that rising construction costs and a static funding formula are squeezing the agency's ability to do more than basic maintenance on the state's highways.
"We will not be able to embark on any new capacity projects, and we have plenty of needs in that area,"  Tagert said at Mississippi Today's "Coffee and Conversation"  event ....
"We're trying to essentially build 2016 roads and bridges with 1987 level funding,"  he said. "Therein lies the problem. It's a complicated issue but in some ways, is very simple. Over time the price index for everything has risen dramatically – three to four hundred percent in some cases." ....
With a legislature that is reluctant to raise taxes, Tagert said maintenance may be all the department will be able to do in the future.
"We love to build new roads and bridges, as you can imagine,"  Tagert said, "but under circumstances, it would be irresponsible to build new roads and bridges if we are not able to maintain our current roads and bridges. ... (we) have become the Department of Maintenance." ....
Tagert sees a growing interest among legislators in infrastructure issues that he believes will in time prompt legislative action. A major push last year led by the Mississippi Economic Council to spend $375 million more per year on state highway construction gained little traction in the 2016 legislative session.
"I think that there are a lot of differing opinions on how we get to a solution (on repairing roads and bridges),"  Lt. Gov. Tate Reeves said when the session ended. Reeves said he supports more revenue for highway construction, but has not indicated where that money might come from.
"I don't think that in this legislative session, there was ever a consensus on how to fix the challenge of needing to spend more money on roads and bridges,"  Reeves said when the legislative session ended. "To be fair, we are going to spend a little over a billion dollars this year on roads and bridges."  ...
"We need a long term investment plan for infrastructure in our state,"  Tagert said. "The model of the user fee, the fuel tax, is something that is accepted nationally. And even in the lowest social, financial class, even those people benefit directly from an adequate transportation system. It has a tremendous impact on everything."  ....
The Transportation Department is looking at the potential for toll roads in high traffic volume areas of the state: DeSoto County, the Jackson metropolitan area and the Gulf Coast ....
Some approaches used for highway funding, such as taxing cars on miles driven, won't necessarily work in a rural state like Mississippi.

Looks like 2017 will be an interesting year.

[silverback1065]

ms is screwed. i don't seeing this highway being built anytime soon.

[codyg1985]

ms is screwed. i don't seeing this highway being built anytime soon.

Out of all of the I-69 segments, the one between Memphis and Shreveport, in its current form, I think stands the least chance of happening.

I am not really sure what projects rank as the top priority for the state of Mississippi, but I imagine that there are several different projects that are more important than this one.

[silverback1065]

I've asked this a different way before (about 69 exclusively), but in general, does ms need any new terrain interstates at all?

[froggie]

I've asked this a different way before (about 69 exclusively), but in general, does ms need any new terrain interstates at all?

An argument could be made for US 49 from Jackson to the Gulf Coast.  Otherwise, aside from connecting I-22 to the Memphis Interstate system in some fashion, the answer is no.

[cjk374]

Louisiana needs nothing at all from an I-69 except a new Red River crossing. Even then, you don't need a new interstate for that.

[lordsutch]

I can't say I'm particularly surprised; MDOT already had said (going back to Vision 21) that without dedicated funding there's no way either I-69 or a US 49 freeway corridor could be financed without innovative financing or an injection of federal funds from the DRA or elsewhere.

The question is whether the will is there to even finish what is remains of the four-lane program and Vision 21 (like the US 82 Greenville bypass, MS 15 from US 72 to I-10, US 278/MS 6 four-laning from Batesville to Clarksdale, etc.) by raising state taxes, like recently happened in Georgia.

[Grzrd]

I was even more surprised to discover that MDOT's Five Year Plan now includes $1 million in FY 2016 preliminary engineering for I-69 SIU 11 from Clarksdale to Eagles Nest:

MDOT has more preliminary engineering planned for I-69 in 2017, this time from the DeSoto county line to Arkabutla Dam Road:



From the 2017-20 Statewide Transportation Improvement Plan (p. 50/385 of pdf):

[Grzrd]

This December 30 ar[ticle reports that Horn Lake Mayor Latimer and the DeSoto County Board of Supervisors are still pursuing a Nail Road interchange on I-55/69:

Horn Lake Mayor Allen Latimer said his city also continues to make a steady march for progress ....
Latimer said the City of Horn Lake continues to seek county, state and federal assistance in construction of an interchange at Nail Road and Interstate 55, and in projects to control water passing within the city's boundaries.
"We would especially like to thank the DeSoto County Board of Supervisors for their support on these vital projects," Latimer said.

I remain consistently amazed at how slowly highway projects move in Mississippi .... Contrast all of that with how quickly projects advance in Texas, where I've made my home for the last 11 years .... Entire freeway projects in Texas get planned, funded, constructed, opened, and expanded in the time that it takes MDOT to figure out where it wants to put an interchange.

(bottom quote from Mississippi thread)

At least Latimer got a hydraulic study for the Nail Road interchange on Interstate 55/69 included in the
Final 2017-20 Statewide Transportation Improvement Plan (p. 289/383 of pdf):

[Grzrd]

This MDOT News Release announces plans to widen I-55 and I-55/69 in Desoto County, including construction of a new interchange for Star Landing Road beginning in mid-2019

This February 1 article quotes a MDOT official as saying that the widening of I-55/69 is currently in the engineering and design phase, but that budgetary woes may slow down construction:

DeSoto County is on track to have some major improvements to its road system finished next year, according to Mississippi Department of Transportation (MDOT) Northern District Commissioner Mike Tagert....
MDOT is also working forward on the widening to eight lanes of I-55 between Hernando and Southaven, although Tagert, in Olive Branch Tuesday to speak to the local Rotary Club, said it is moving slowly.
"We are in the engineering phase, where we are trying to identify the impact of additional lanes on the current land ownership through that corridor,"  Tagert said. "The big picture is to widen I-55 to eight lanes and it's crucially needed. We're in the engineering and design phase as we speak."
As with many other projects, Tagert noted that paying for the project remains an issue with limited funding.
"It's good, ol' fashioned funding that's the hangup on the project,"  Tagert said. "We're only limited by funding. We're going to have to spread it out over a course of time as we can afford to pay for it."

[Grzrd]

This February 1 article quotes a MDOT official as saying that the widening of I-55/69 is currently in the engineering and design phase, but that budgetary woes may slow down construction

MDOT has recently embarked on a public relations campaign to obtain an additional $400 million in funding. I-69 is not included in the Unfunded Projects By County, but no other interstate projects are included in the funding request (for example, the I-55/69 widening project). MDOT's intent seems to be preserve the rural road network:

In the mid-1900s, county roads were given to the state creating a paved network of farm to market routes, many of which are still in use today. Because Mississippi is primarily an agricultural state, these rural corridors are vital to economic development. These roads continue to be neglected, because the majority of today's state transportation funding goes toward the preservation of major infrastructure routes — interstate and four-lane highways. These routes carry the majority of general statewide and commercial traffic.

However, they also speak of not building any new roads:

.... Central Transportation Commissioner Dick Hall ....
"Rising construction costs and aging infrastructure means MDOT will not be able to maintain the current condition of the system or build any new lanes or roadways,"  Hall said.

Although I-69 goes through a rural area, it does not seem to be covered by this request. That said, if MDOT is asking for an additional $400 million for preservation and improvements to the state's rural roads, how much money, if any, will be put toward I-69 as part of the money dedicated for interstates and four-lane highways? My initial reaction is not much.

A section completed from the north end of the Clarksdale bypass to the U.S. 61/49 split could also have a dual utility as part of the Brinkley to Batesville Highway Corridor

However, as a corridor, that "cutting the hypotenuse" doesn't dovetail with MDOT's goal of providing a 4-lane MS 6 between Clarksdale and Batesville.

Sure enough, one of the upgrade projects on the list is the four-laning of MS 6 from Clarksdale to Batesville:

For example, there is a need to four-lane Highway 19 in Neshoba County from Meridian to Philadelphia, U.S. Highway 278/State Route 6 from Batesville to U.S. Highway 61 through Panola, Quitman and Coahoma counties, and a section of Highway 24 from East Fork to Interstate 55 in Pike and Amite counties. These projects connect multiple cities and will build capacity for industries along the corridor. Without additional funding, neither of these projects will move forward.