Speed Limits That Are Too High

[Ketchup99]

Single-track roads in the UK are all 60. Good luck hitting that.

[nwi_navigator_1181]

At the risk of being ratio'd...

US 131 and I-196 in downtown Grand Rapids. The speed limit on US 131 through downtown GR stays at 70 mph, despite...

• An interchange with I-196 that requires left hand movements and turns that can be taken at no greater than 30 mph (personal experience talking), with traffic merging in on the left and inverted switches
• Heavy traffic
• An s-curve just south of the interchange that requires speeds no greater than 50 mph and requires drivers to stay in their lanes

You really can't stay at 70 mph until north of Leonard Street or south of Wealthy Street. They should consider a 60 mph zone for that area.

As for I-196, the speed limit is 65 mph, and then 70 south of Lake Michigan Drive, despite the narrow shoulders, left hand merges, left hand exits, and crazy tight curves between US 131 and Market Avenue. The speed zone should be 55-60 accordingly, but only for that section.

[Rothman]

Huh.  I didn't mind those speed limits last I was through there.

[Scott5114]

* there are probably states out there with speed trap laws, but California's is probably most infamous.

Oklahoma has an anti-speed-trap law, but rather than operating on the basis of speed studies, it look at the percentage of a town's total revenue that is raised by traffic fines vs. that from taxes. If the fine percentage gets too high, the town loses the right to enforce traffic laws, which then become the jurisdiction of the county or the Oklahoma Highway Patrol. At least one town was forced to disincorporate when they triggered the law and the resulting loss in revenue made the town insolvent.

This was the brainchild of a pissed-off state rep that got pulled over and ticketed for going something like 1 over the speed limit in a town that was notorious for existing solely to write tickets. I want to say it was Big Cabin on US-69.

[webny99]

I would be fuming if I got pulled over for less than 10 mph over the speed limit, regardless of the state or town or what the speed limit was. What a waste of everyone's time.

[jakeroot]

I would be fuming if I got pulled over for less than 10 mph over the speed limit, regardless of the state or town or what the speed limit was. What a waste of everyone's time.

I think 10 over is pretty reasonable on roads with a 35+ limits, but probably too high for a school zone of 15 or 20. I would also guess that 6-10 over might get you stopped in quite a few areas in the country. Not in any area that I regularly drive through but I've heard stories.

* there are probably states out there with speed trap laws, but California's is probably most infamous.

Oklahoma has an anti-speed-trap law, but rather than operating on the basis of speed studies, it look at the percentage of a town's total revenue that is raised by traffic fines vs. that from taxes. If the fine percentage gets too high, the town loses the right to enforce traffic laws, which then become the jurisdiction of the county or the Oklahoma Highway Patrol. At least one town was forced to disincorporate when they triggered the law and the resulting loss in revenue made the town insolvent.

This was the brainchild of a pissed-off state rep that got pulled over and ticketed for going something like 1 over the speed limit in a town that was notorious for existing solely to write tickets. I want to say it was Big Cabin on US-69.

Looks like Big Cabin, yeah. According to their Wiki page.

[webny99]

I would be fuming if I got pulled over for less than 10 mph over the speed limit, regardless of the state or town or what the speed limit was. What a waste of everyone's time.

I think 10 over is pretty reasonable on roads with a 35+ limits, but probably too high for a school zone of 15 or 20. I would also guess that 6-10 over might get you stopped in quite a few areas in the country. Not in any area that I regularly drive through but I've heard stories.

Generally, I try not to exceed the speed limit if it's 25 or lower - that usually means school, neighborhood, or otherwise residential or densely populated. However, there are few local examples of through roads posted at 25 mph, like this, which makes this tough. 30 is the standard town/village speed limit around here... great in some cases, terrible in others. Generally, I try to keep it under 40 in 30 zones.

35 itself is absolutely out the window. There's such wild variation that I have lost all semblance of respect for it as a speed limit and just go as fast as I feel safe. Sometimes, that's with the cruise set at 55 mph, and other times, 35 is about right. For anything above 35: generally speed limit +10 on surface streets, and speed limit +15 on expressways and freeways.

As far as getting stopped for less than 10 over, KRETP is the way forward, as cops tend to run their radar on the left lane.

[Roadgeekteen]

I would be fuming if I got pulled over for less than 10 mph over the speed limit, regardless of the state or town or what the speed limit was. What a waste of everyone's time.

I think 10 over is pretty reasonable on roads with a 35+ limits, but probably too high for a school zone of 15 or 20. I would also guess that 6-10 over might get you stopped in quite a few areas in the country. Not in any area that I regularly drive through but I've heard stories.

Generally, I try not to exceed the speed limit if it's 25 or lower - that usually means school, neighborhood, or otherwise residential or densely populated. However, there are few local examples of through roads posted at 25 mph, like this, which makes this tough. 30 is the standard town/village speed limit around here... great in some cases, terrible in others. Generally, I try to keep it under 40 in 30 zones.

35 itself is absolutely out the window. There's such wild variation that I have lost all semblance of respect for it as a speed limit and just go as fast as I feel safe. Sometimes, that's with the cruise set at 55 mph, and other times, 35 is about right. For anything above 35: generally speed limit +10 on surface streets, and speed limit +15 on expressways and freeways.

As far as getting stopped for less than 10 over, KRETP is the way forward, as cops tend to run their radar on the left lane.

15 above on freeways? So you would go 100 in 85 on TX 130?

[webny99]

... For anything above 35: generally speed limit +10 on surface streets, and speed limit +15 on expressways and freeways.

15 above on freeways? So you would go 100 in 85 on TX 130?

Not necessarily. 80 mph (on I-90 in SD) is the highest limit I've seen on the road. Also seen 75 mph in Michigan, Texas, and ND.
But I'm mostly thinking of 55, 65, and 70 mph limits. Those are the only ones we have here in the Northeast, haven't driven anything else often enough to have a SOP.

[sprjus4]

My general experience is usually 10 - 15 mph over in 55, 60, and 65 mph zones, about 7-10 mph over in 70 zones, 4-6 mph over in 75 mph zones, and 2-4 mph over in 80 and 85 mph zones.

The higher speed limits are usually set more appropriately, and the incentive to speed is lessened. Of course, some see it as an easy way to punch to 100 mph, especially on the 85 mph SH-130 stretch, but not the majority of people.

[jakeroot]

The higher speed limits are usually set more appropriately, and the incentive to speed is lessened. Of course, some see it as an easy way to punch to 100 mph, especially on the 85 mph SH-130 stretch, but not the majority of people.

That's basically how I see it. Higher speeds are still less comfortable for most drivers. Automatically adding x-mph above every limit would imply that all limits are way off the 8th percentile; that's true in places but largely not the case everywhere.

[sprjus4]

The higher speed limits are usually set more appropriately, and the incentive to speed is lessened. Of course, some see it as an easy way to punch to 100 mph, especially on the 85 mph SH-130 stretch, but not the majority of people.

That's basically how I see it. Higher speeds are still less comfortable for most drivers. Automatically adding x-mph above every limit would imply that all limits are way off the 8th percentile; that's true in places but largely not the case everywhere.

My examples were in general, of course there any a number of situations where a lower 55 mph or 60 mph speed limit may be appropriate for the road design and I wouldn't want to drive more than 5 mph over, though in many cases, it's artificially underposted and result in traffic flowing 10 - 15 mph over.

Another instance may be in more lenient state such as Michigan or Texas, where a 70 mph speed limit may be posted on an urban freeway. Again, this would be a type of situation where 5 - 8 mph over would be appropriate rather than 10 or 15 mph over.

[michravera]

The higher speed limits are usually set more appropriately, and the incentive to speed is lessened. Of course, some see it as an easy way to punch to 100 mph, especially on the 85 mph SH-130 stretch, but not the majority of people.

That's basically how I see it. Higher speeds are still less comfortable for most drivers. Automatically adding x-mph above every limit would imply that all limits are way off the 8th percentile; that's true in places but largely not the case everywhere.

My examples were in general, of course there any a number of situations where a lower 55 mph or 60 mph speed limit may be appropriate for the road design and I wouldn't want to drive more than 5 mph over, though in many cases, it's artificially underposted and result in traffic flowing 10 - 15 mph over.

Another instance may be in more lenient state such as Michigan or Texas, where a 70 mph speed limit may be posted on an urban freeway. Again, this would be a type of situation where 5 - 8 mph over would be appropriate rather than 10 or 15 mph over.

I believe what happens in most places is that LE pretty consistently stops drivers for 10% over the 85th percentile speed. How much of a cushion that gives you depends upon how far underposted the road is. I'll bet that Texas Highway Patrol will grab you for 94MPH in the 85MPH zones (and probably for 88MPH in the 80MPH zones).  You don't get much of a cushion for properly posted roads. But, they don't just stop everybody on badly underposted roads (like most 35MPH zones as an earlier poster mentioned).

[webny99]

I think having less tolerance for speeding (and, by extension, driving closer to the limit) the higher it is, is completely backwards.

Driving 45 in a 25 mph zone is very significant.
Driving 100 in an 80 mph zone is not that significant.

It should be done on a proportional basis, whether it's 10, or 15, or 20%. Using 10% as an example:
25 mph: tolerance of 2-3 mph over
45 mph: tolerance of 4-5 mph over
65 mph: tolerance of 6-7 mph over
85 mph: tolerance of 8-9 mph over

Right now, most of you are describing a bell curve: Stick close to the limits when they're low (25) or high (75+), but in the middle of that range, anything goes. Doesn't that mean that the speed limits in that middle range need to be increased, so we can at least be consistent?

[vdeane]

Think of it this way: speed limits that are higher tend to be posted in places where the politicians and police do no subscribe to the "everybody will automatically drive X mph over the limit" belief, and so are they are more comfortable posting the limit at the speed they actually want traffic to drive rather than subtracting 15 mph like is common in the northeast.

The philosophy behind the raising of speed limits that we've seen in many states in recent years is NOT to make traffic faster.  Rather, it's to bring the number on the sign closer to the number that's enforced, and in the process bring the people who actually follow the limit (or who only go a little bit faster) up to the existing prevailing speed of traffic.

[Ketchup99]

I'm sure a search of my post history would show that I've mentioned this one before, but anyways, 60 mph on US 16A (Rapid City bypass) is impossibly high. I don't think I reached much less exceeded the limit even once on the entire route.

I haven't driven it personally, but wouldn't that actually make it a good limit? If it's something that most drivers don't exceed, that pretty much meets the definition of "85th percentile", assuming SD DOT is using those calculations to determine an appropriate limit.

Well, maybe, but it runs contrary to what I'm used to, and what's done in this part of the country. My mindset is to always go at least the speed limit so as not to obstruct other traffic, but between the curves, grades, and stoplights on 16A, 60 mph seems to usually be out of reach. It's not that you can't reach that speed, it's just that it's usually impractical without excessive accelerating/braking. I guess I just don't see the advantage of setting it so high - at that point, what's the difference between an unsustainable limit and no limit at all?

A limit like 55 or 60 is probably appropriate, although taking a look at GSV, Pennsylvania would have set it to 45. If it's a speed that one would have to be driving recklessly to exceed, it's a good limit. If you can be driving safely above it, the limit is too low.

[doorknob60]

If it's a speed that one would have to be driving recklessly to exceed, it's a good limit. If you can be driving safely above it, the limit is too low.

I disagree. If the limit is 55 and someone going 58 would be considered reckless, the limit is too high. If 58 is reckless, 55 probably isn't safe, and 55 is what most people are going to be driving if that's the posted limit. If 55 is on the edge between reckless and safe, probably 50 or 45 is a reasonable limit. I'm not commenting on any particular road here, just a general rule of thumb.

[sprjus4]

If it's a speed that one would have to be driving recklessly to exceed, it's a good limit. If you can be driving safely above it, the limit is too low.

I disagree. If the limit is 55 and someone going 58 would be considered reckless, the limit is too high. If 58 is reckless, 55 probably isn't safe, and 55 is what most people are going to be driving if that's the posted limit. If 55 is on the edge between reckless and safe, probably 50 or 45 is a reasonable limit. I'm not commenting on any particular road here, just a general rule of thumb.

Should be maybe a 5 mph cushion between the posted speed limit and the maximum safe speed, based on an actual engineering assessment, not an artificial cap in some states that says above 55 mph or 60 mph on a non-freeway is dangerous.

[jeffandnicole]

If it's a speed that one would have to be driving recklessly to exceed, it's a good limit. If you can be driving safely above it, the limit is too low.

I disagree. If the limit is 55 and someone going 58 would be considered reckless, the limit is too high. If 58 is reckless, 55 probably isn't safe, and 55 is what most people are going to be driving if that's the posted limit. If 55 is on the edge between reckless and safe, probably 50 or 45 is a reasonable limit. I'm not commenting on any particular road here, just a general rule of thumb.

Should be maybe a 5 mph cushion between the posted speed limit and the maximum safe speed, based on an actual engineering assessment, not an artificial cap in some states that says above 55 mph or 60 mph on a non-freeway is dangerous.

Technically, that's how roadways are designed.  If a roadway were to be built with the intention it'll be signed at 65 mph, the design of that roadway would safely support a limit of 70 or 75 mph.

[Roadgeekteen]

I think having less tolerance for speeding (and, by extension, driving closer to the limit) the higher it is, is completely backwards.

Driving 45 in a 25 mph zone is very significant.
Driving 100 in an 80 mph zone is not that significant.

It should be done on a proportional basis, whether it's 10, or 15, or 20%. Using 10% as an example:
25 mph: tolerance of 2-3 mph over
45 mph: tolerance of 4-5 mph over
65 mph: tolerance of 6-7 mph over
85 mph: tolerance of 8-9 mph over

Right now, most of you are describing a bell curve: Stick close to the limits when they're low (25) or high (75+), but in the middle of that range, anything goes. Doesn't that mean that the speed limits in that middle range need to be increased, so we can at least be consistent?

What do people get pulled over for going on the 80-85 roads out west?

[sprjus4]

If it's a speed that one would have to be driving recklessly to exceed, it's a good limit. If you can be driving safely above it, the limit is too low.

I disagree. If the limit is 55 and someone going 58 would be considered reckless, the limit is too high. If 58 is reckless, 55 probably isn't safe, and 55 is what most people are going to be driving if that's the posted limit. If 55 is on the edge between reckless and safe, probably 50 or 45 is a reasonable limit. I'm not commenting on any particular road here, just a general rule of thumb.

Should be maybe a 5 mph cushion between the posted speed limit and the maximum safe speed, based on an actual engineering assessment, not an artificial cap in some states that says above 55 mph or 60 mph on a non-freeway is dangerous.

Technically, that's how roadways are designed.  If a roadway were to be built with the intention it'll be signed at 65 mph, the design of that roadway would safely support a limit of 70 or 75 mph.

The problem is I've seen instances of wide open highways with a "design speed"  of only 60 mph, and a posted limit of 55 mph. Problem is, the reality is a safe speed could reasonably be as high as 65 or 70 mph. A design speed should be based on roadway characteristic, cross section, geometry, etc. not just automatically 60 mph since a statutory speed is 55 mph.

From my experience, here in Virginia, many roads with a 60 mph "design speed"  have been increased from 55 to 60 mph, and are still perfectly safe driving 65 - 70 mph, or even slightly higher. Was 60 mph the true "design speed"  based on geometry and other factors of that project, or was it merely a statutory limit imposed during planning phases?

[jeffandnicole]

On a straight roadway with good sightlines, technically the design speed could be unlimited. The design speed comes into play for curves, sightlines, etc.  Design speeds also have to factor in all traffic. A tractor trailer, for example, needs to drive at a slower speed on curves than cars. They also needs a longer stopping distance, and with that comes into play the sightlines. So it's just not you and your little four-wheel chevy that engineers have to worry about. They need to consider all traffic on the roadway.

Back when the NMSL was 55 mph, some transportation departments figured why bother going higher than a 60 mph design speed.  Faster roadways cost more.  And there was really no reason to belive the limits would go back to pre-NMSL speeds, especially on non limited access roadways. The max design speed would've been on a department basis or state basis. And it still exists today. VA and every other state still has a top design speed limit. No sense designing something for 120 mph when 75 mph will do.

[sprjus4]

On a straight roadway with good sightlines, technically the design speed could be unlimited. The design speed comes into play for curves, sightlines, etc.  Design speeds also have to factor in all traffic. A tractor trailer, for example, needs to drive at a slower speed on curves than cars. They also needs a longer stopping distance, and with that comes into play the sightlines. So it's just not you and your little four-wheel chevy that engineers have to worry about. They need to consider all traffic on the roadway.

Back when the NMSL was 55 mph, some transportation departments figured why bother going higher than a 60 mph design speed.  Faster roadways cost more.  And there was really no reason to belive the limits would go back to pre-NMSL speeds, especially on non limited access roadways. The max design speed would've been on a department basis or state basis. And it still exists today. VA and every other state still has a top design speed limit. No sense designing something for 120 mph when 75 mph will do.

My point being is even though a road has a "design speed" of per-se 60 mph, the geometry of it including sightlines, curves, etc. can all safely handle 65 to 70 mph speeds, and that's looking at technical details such as radius, superelevation, length of ramps, etc.

Here is an example of what I'm referring to. I-664 in South Hampton Roads is posted at 60 mph, though it seems the prevailing speed is closer to or over 70 mph, including with most tractor trailers who have no problem keeping up with that speed. The interstate is relatively straight, has excellent sightlines, very little gentle curvature, and lengthy ramps & acceleration lanes. The road was originally posted at 55 mph, and I'm fairly certain the "design speed" is 60 mph. Realistically though, 65 mph (or 70 mph, but less realistic) would be a fairly reasonable speed limit with a 70 mph design speed based on current design. There is a speed differential of 10 - 15 mph between those who obey the posted speed limit of 60 mph and those who drive a reasonable speed for the road (70 - 75 mph).

[kphoger]

What do people get pulled over for going on the 80-85 roads out west?

I've only driven TX-130 two times, but I personally never saw anyone driving more than 95 mph on it anyway.

[mrose]

Federal Blvd in Westminster in suburban Denver, between 104th and 120th Ave. 55 mph in a residential area.

A high school student was hit and killed trying to cross at the intersection with 112th a couple of years ago.

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