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Ontario's Highways

Started by un1, January 19, 2009, 03:21:49 PM

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andrepoiy

Light traffic. What time of day?


AsphaltPlanet

I think they were both taken around lunchtime or early afternoon.
AsphaltPlanet.ca  Youtube -- Opinions expressed reflect the viewpoints of others.

kernals12

I have a wild conspiracy theory: I think the owners of Highway 407 are bankrolling the opposition to 413.

cbeach40

Quote from: kernals12 on March 22, 2023, 10:21:52 PM
I have a wild conspiracy theory: I think the owners of Highway 407 are bankrolling the opposition to 413.

Unlikely as they would be one of the leading candidates to build and operate it. Plus it'll provide negligible impact to their traffic patterns, 413's alignment is too far north.
and waterrrrrrr!

kernals12

Quote from: cbeach40 on March 23, 2023, 09:55:44 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on March 22, 2023, 10:21:52 PM
I have a wild conspiracy theory: I think the owners of Highway 407 are bankrolling the opposition to 413.

Unlikely as they would be one of the leading candidates to build and operate it. Plus it'll provide negligible impact to their traffic patterns, 413's alignment is too far north.

The government has said it won't be tolled.

cbeach40

Quote from: kernals12 on March 23, 2023, 11:10:46 PM
Quote from: cbeach40 on March 23, 2023, 09:55:44 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on March 22, 2023, 10:21:52 PM
I have a wild conspiracy theory: I think the owners of Highway 407 are bankrolling the opposition to 413.

Unlikely as they would be one of the leading candidates to build and operate it. Plus it'll provide negligible impact to their traffic patterns, 413's alignment is too far north.

The government has said it won't be tolled.

The operate the 412 and 418 and they aren't tolled. And they've been involved in countless other non-toll road projects throughout the province, let alone globally.
Whether the revenue comes from tolls or private clients or government coffers it doesn't matter to them.
and waterrrrrrr!

kernals12

#1456
You want some rageporn? The vast majority of the toll you pay to use 407 is dividends for shareholders  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:



I think Ontario should announce it intends to buy 51% of the toll road and then cut tolls. The stock price would plummet and it would be cheap for them to buy it.

7/8

The Region of Waterloo is in favour of closing the Highway 85 on and off-ramps to Lancaster St for a future Lancaster road reconstruction. City of Kitchener city council voted the opposite, but ultimately the decision lies with the Region and MTO since Lancaster St is a regional road (#29). The Region will have a final vote on April 12.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/highway-85-ramps-lancaster-waterloo-region-council-kitchener-1.6801695

Personally I'm in favour of the ramp closure (particularly the SB exit off Highway 85). Once a week, I'll use the on-ramp to Highway 85 SB from Bridgeport and it quickly becomes the exit for Lancaster, which gives little time to merge onto the highway (street view). The Bridgeport and Wellington exits are close enough that the time difference by closing the ramps seems minimal. Also, I like the plan of reducing Lancaster to two lanes with bike lanes, since it's already two lanes north and south of the highway anyway.

Stephane Dumas

Quote from: 7/8 on April 05, 2023, 09:56:13 AM
The Region of Waterloo is in favour of closing the Highway 85 on and off-ramps to Lancaster St for a future Lancaster road reconstruction. City of Kitchener city council voted the opposite, but ultimately the decision lies with the Region and MTO since Lancaster St is a regional road (#29). The Region will have a final vote on April 12.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/highway-85-ramps-lancaster-waterloo-region-council-kitchener-1.6801695

Personally I'm in favour of the ramp closure (particularly the SB exit off Highway 85). Once a week, I'll use the on-ramp to Highway 85 SB from Bridgeport and it quickly becomes the exit for Lancaster, which gives little time to merge onto the highway (street view). The Bridgeport and Wellington exits are close enough that the time difference by closing the ramps seems minimal. Also, I like the plan of reducing Lancaster to two lanes with bike lanes, since it's already two lanes north and south of the highway anyway.

I have an idea then I sketched to resolve some of the problems on Hwy-85 and Lancaster st. but this solution might be costly and NIMBYs will probably dislike it as well.

7/8

Quote from: Stephane Dumas on April 05, 2023, 12:48:34 PM
I have an idea then I sketched to resolve some of the problems on Hwy-85 and Lancaster st. but this solution might be costly and NIMBYs will probably dislike it as well.


That looks expensive and would likely require more right-of-way, but it would certainly have high vehicle throughput.

Personally I don't find the on-ramp from Lancaster problematic*, so here's an idea that focuses on the Lancaster off-ramp. This still provides access to Lancaster, but requires passing through an intersection at Bridgeport first. It also eliminates the weaving on Bridgeport between the two loop ramps.


* From the perspective of Highway 85. There's a good argument to made that the on-ramp isn't cyclist friendly for those on Lancaster St.

jakeroot

Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on March 17, 2023, 04:36:19 PM
More 401 photos, this time looking westerly from Mississauga Road:


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_401_images/401_cl_336_west_C_Mar23_24x16.jpg


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_401_images/401_cl_336_west_EB_Mar23_24x16.jpg

I find it rather peculiar that the chevron striping between the HOV and regular lanes does not touch the outer striping. There appears to be about a two or three inch gap.

AsphaltPlanet

AsphaltPlanet.ca  Youtube -- Opinions expressed reflect the viewpoints of others.

AsphaltPlanet

Quote from: jakeroot on April 09, 2023, 06:18:53 PM
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on March 17, 2023, 04:36:19 PM
More 401 photos, this time looking westerly from Mississauga Road:


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_401_images/401_cl_336_west_C_Mar23_24x16.jpg


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_401_images/401_cl_336_west_EB_Mar23_24x16.jpg

I find it rather peculiar that the chevron striping between the HOV and regular lanes does not touch the outer striping. There appears to be about a two or three inch gap.

For whatever the reason, all of the HOV lanes in Toronto are striped this way.  Seems to have been done deliberately.

In Ottawa, on the 417, the marks within the buffer touch the outer lines.
AsphaltPlanet.ca  Youtube -- Opinions expressed reflect the viewpoints of others.

jakeroot

#1463
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on April 09, 2023, 06:29:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 09, 2023, 06:18:53 PM
I find it rather peculiar that the chevron striping between the HOV and regular lanes does not touch the outer striping. There appears to be about a two or three inch gap.

For whatever the reason, all of the HOV lanes in Toronto are striped this way.  Seems to have been done deliberately.

In Ottawa, on the 417, the marks within the buffer touch the outer lines.

I do actually like it. I don't know why...but I do.

The only thing I don't like, and maybe this is a thing with all MTO carpool lanes: the striping really should be actual chevrons rather than simple striping. I think the idea with striping is that it should "point" towards the direction of traffic. The carpool lane side of the striping has the stripes pointing against the flow of traffic (something like this).

Very minor thing, I don't even think it's a steadfast rule. From poking around on satellite view, it doesn't seem like neutral-area chevrons are used in much of any capacity around the GTA.

jakeroot

Quote from: 7/8 on April 05, 2023, 02:39:29 PM
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on April 05, 2023, 12:48:34 PM
I have an idea then I sketched to resolve some of the problems on Hwy-85 and Lancaster st. but this solution might be costly and NIMBYs will probably dislike it as well.


That looks expensive and would likely require more right-of-way, but it would certainly have high vehicle throughput.

Personally I don't find the on-ramp from Lancaster problematic*, so here's an idea that focuses on the Lancaster off-ramp. This still provides access to Lancaster, but requires passing through an intersection at Bridgeport first. It also eliminates the weaving on Bridgeport between the two loop ramps.


* From the perspective of Highway 85. There's a good argument to made that the on-ramp isn't cyclist friendly for those on Lancaster St.

If you wanted to be really thrifty, you could implement this one-way road with the current ramp configuration, or with some simple modifications. Something like this. Slightly less demolition, although the lane configuration on Hwy 85 would still need to be modified to prevent people on 85 from exiting towards Lancaster.

AsphaltPlanet

Quote from: jakeroot on April 09, 2023, 08:21:25 PM
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on April 09, 2023, 06:29:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 09, 2023, 06:18:53 PM
I find it rather peculiar that the chevron striping between the HOV and regular lanes does not touch the outer striping. There appears to be about a two or three inch gap.
For whatever the reason, all of the HOV lanes in Toronto are striped this way.  Seems to have been done deliberately.

In Ottawa, on the 417, the marks within the buffer touch the outer lines.

I do actually like it. I don't know why...but I do.

The only thing I don't like, and maybe this is a thing with all MTO carpool lanes: the striping really should be actual chevrons rather than simple striping. I think the idea with striping is that it should "point" towards the direction of traffic. The carpool lane side of the striping has the stripes pointing against the flow of traffic (something like this).

Very minor thing, I don't even think it's a steadfast rule. From poking around on satellite view, it doesn't seem like neutral-area chevrons are used in much of any capacity around the GTA.


Arizona uses chevrons on their (few) buffer separated HOV lanes though to me, chevrons like that kind of seem more appropriate for a bullnose to signify an exit than for the buffer between an HOV lane and a GPL.  But there's a bit of personal preference there.

Personally, my favourite treatment was the four yellow lines that Caltrans used to use.

,
AsphaltPlanet.ca  Youtube -- Opinions expressed reflect the viewpoints of others.

Alps

Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on April 09, 2023, 09:08:19 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 09, 2023, 08:21:25 PM
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on April 09, 2023, 06:29:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 09, 2023, 06:18:53 PM
I find it rather peculiar that the chevron striping between the HOV and regular lanes does not touch the outer striping. There appears to be about a two or three inch gap.
For whatever the reason, all of the HOV lanes in Toronto are striped this way.  Seems to have been done deliberately.

In Ottawa, on the 417, the marks within the buffer touch the outer lines.

I do actually like it. I don't know why...but I do.

The only thing I don't like, and maybe this is a thing with all MTO carpool lanes: the striping really should be actual chevrons rather than simple striping. I think the idea with striping is that it should "point" towards the direction of traffic. The carpool lane side of the striping has the stripes pointing against the flow of traffic (something like this).

Very minor thing, I don't even think it's a steadfast rule. From poking around on satellite view, it doesn't seem like neutral-area chevrons are used in much of any capacity around the GTA.


Arizona uses chevrons on their (few) buffer separated HOV lanes though to me, chevrons like that kind of seem more appropriate for a bullnose to signify an exit than for the buffer between an HOV lane and a GPL.  But there's a bit of personal preference there.

Personally, my favourite treatment was the four yellow lines that Caltrans used to use.

,
Jake's perspective agrees with the MUTCD, so I'll agree with him. Chevrons for any same-direction traffic division.

AsphaltPlanet

I guess TxDOTs exit stripes near Austin must violate the MUTCD then:

AsphaltPlanet.ca  Youtube -- Opinions expressed reflect the viewpoints of others.

jakeroot

#1468
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on April 09, 2023, 11:40:01 PM
I guess TxDOTs exit stripes near Austin must violate the MUTCD then:



If it's in the MUTCD as Alps says...then yes. Generally speaking, I think the striping should be consistent with whatever object marker sign could also be placed in that same area.

I don't think Texas is the only one who does this. Certain regions of WSDOT also used stripes (example before) before transitioning to chevrons in the last decade (example after).

Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on April 09, 2023, 09:08:19 PM
Personally, my favourite treatment was the four yellow lines that Caltrans used to use.

I was also a fan, though I like the new all-white variant too.

AsphaltPlanet

Here's the 2019 MUTCD for pavement markings:

Section 3B-10 shows chevrons being used to mark an obstruction in the pavement.  See Figure 3B-15.

An HOV lane buffer doesn't reflect an obstruction, plus its a moot point since Ontario isn't subject to the US MUTCD.
AsphaltPlanet.ca  Youtube -- Opinions expressed reflect the viewpoints of others.

jakeroot

I don't believe there is any requirement for markings in that neutral area to begin with, so it's unlikely that you'll find any particular standards specifically for it. If Ontario wants to use that kind of striping, I don't see any rule (Canadian or American) saying "no"; my suggestion of using chevrons simply comes from neutral areas between same-direction traffic flows normally use chevron-style striping, if any striping is used at all.

Perhaps the closest analogy might actually be the striping in the neutral (buffer) space between regular traffic lanes and bike lanes. From speaking to an American-based professional in the field, the neutral space would have either no markings if 1 foot or less, regular diagonal striping if between 1 and 3 feet, and chevrons if greater than 3 feet in width. Applying this theory to the HOV lanes in Ontario, they seem to be about four feet wide, so they should use chevron markings. But since they are not bike lanes, and MTO probably has their own standard, it's a moot point anyways.

Alps

The MUTCD does not require chevrons in the gore, but if you stripe at a 45 degree angle, the stripe is ALWAYS to go in the direction of traffic, which yields chevrons in a gore.

cbeach40

Hwy 85 Lancaster interchange to remain open
https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/lancaster-street-ramps-to-remain-open-following-tie-vote-at-regional-council-1.6363279


So, here's some concepts to at least somewhat fix it

Routing the south ramp through Bridgeport



Routing both ramps through Bridgeport



Or just go for it and extend the collector lanes  :D
and waterrrrrrr!

AsphaltPlanet

One can never have too many collector lanes.
AsphaltPlanet.ca  Youtube -- Opinions expressed reflect the viewpoints of others.

Stephane Dumas

A long time ago, there was some plans for some upgrades of Hwy-7/8 between Stratford and New Hamburg and thanks to the Wayback Machine, I found a old article where some folks wanted a northern alignment. https://web.archive.org/web/20171205032750/http://www.stratfordbeaconherald.com/2012/07/26/another-meeting-another-hwy-78-bypass-route  Is there some progress about this project who seems to be as long as Hwy-7 between WKC and Guelph when it come for fruitition?



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