http://www.wdrb.com/story/30242404/official-kentucky-denied-e-zpass-membership-in-toll-agency-dispute
MTA didn't like Kentucky's planned use of a local sticker in addition to the standard transponder.
Jerks.
I'm curious how this is different from NC Quick Pass having both the E-ZPass and non-E-ZPass options, unless NC decided just to accept the 6 cents/transaction fee.
In any event, E-ZPass will have to accept KY interoperability next year anyway, so they can either decide to take what money they can from KY now or take nothing down the road.
Maybe I'm missing something, but why would Kentucky's PTIA need a second separate transponder sticker for local residents? Couldn't the relevant information be simply associated with the resident's E-ZPass account and then billed (or not billed) accordingly?
What I thought was interesting is the fact that Indiana is not on the board. Indiana has been using EZ Pass technology for years. So I guess they are paying the 6 cent fee, then.
That's the typical NYC bullshit again...why they stick their noses in everybody's business is beyond me.
Why should New York, or any other state have any right to overrule what Kentucky does?
Quote from: lordsutch on October 12, 2015, 10:29:34 PM
I'm curious how this is different from NC Quick Pass having both the E-ZPass and non-E-ZPass options, unless NC decided just to accept the 6 cents/transaction fee.
NCTA is an "affiliate" member of the IAG not a full member.
Quote from: briantroutman on October 12, 2015, 10:53:22 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but why would Kentucky's PTIA need a second separate transponder sticker for local residents? Couldn't the relevant information be simply associated with the resident's E-ZPass account and then billed (or not billed) accordingly?
There is nothing preventing them from adding a "locals" discount code to the account. They already do it for Staten Island residents.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on October 13, 2015, 06:29:07 PM
Quote from: lordsutch on October 12, 2015, 10:29:34 PM
I'm curious how this is different from NC Quick Pass having both the E-ZPass and non-E-ZPass options, unless NC decided just to accept the 6 cents/transaction fee.
NCTA is an "affiliate" member of the IAG not a full member.
Quote from: briantroutman on October 12, 2015, 10:53:22 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but why would Kentucky's PTIA need a second separate transponder sticker for local residents? Couldn't the relevant information be simply associated with the resident's E-ZPass account and then billed (or not billed) accordingly?
There is nothing preventing them from adding a "locals" discount code to the account. They already do it for Staten Island residents.
That's my thought. The protocol allows for localized tolling schemes. I don't
agree with the veto, but I
understand it. As the board is in charge of the technology, Kentucky could be seen as having a conflict of interest. I'm assuming the logic is "if they want to be a full member, why do they feel the need to use another toll system?"
Quote from: cl94 on October 13, 2015, 08:48:07 PM
That's my thought. The protocol allows for localized tolling schemes. I don't agree with the veto, but I understand it. As the board is in charge of the technology, Kentucky could be seen as having a conflict of interest. I'm assuming the logic is "if they want to be a full member, why do they feel the need to use another toll system?"
Two words -- "Social Justice."
There's going to be a special rate for commuters, and that's the target market for the stickers. There were a lot of concerns expressed about the ability of some lower-income folks to pay the tolls. I don't know all the specifics but there should be a plethora of stories available online from Louisville media outlets about the situation.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 13, 2015, 09:03:53 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 13, 2015, 08:48:07 PM
That's my thought. The protocol allows for localized tolling schemes. I don't agree with the veto, but I understand it. As the board is in charge of the technology, Kentucky could be seen as having a conflict of interest. I'm assuming the logic is "if they want to be a full member, why do they feel the need to use another toll system?"
Two words -- "Social Justice."
There's going to be a special rate for commuters, and that's the target market for the stickers. There were a lot of concerns expressed about the ability of some lower-income folks to pay the tolls. I don't know all the specifics but there should be a plethora of stories available online from Louisville media outlets about the situation.
E-ZPass does the same thing. They have commuter plans and resident plans. I don't see the difference.
Quote from: 2trailertrucker on October 13, 2015, 07:30:00 AM
What I thought was interesting is the fact that Indiana is not on the board. Indiana has been using EZ Pass technology for years. So I guess they are paying the 6 cent fee, then.
IIRC, the private company that runs the Toll Road is a full member of the IAG, however, INDOT is not.
Quote from: Thing 342 on October 13, 2015, 09:20:10 PM
Quote from: 2trailertrucker on October 13, 2015, 07:30:00 AM
What I thought was interesting is the fact that Indiana is not on the board. Indiana has been using EZ Pass technology for years. So I guess they are paying the 6 cent fee, then.
IIRC, the private company that runs the Toll Road is a full member of the IAG, however, INDOT is not.
Correct
Quote from: Henry on October 13, 2015, 12:17:50 PM
That's the typical NYC bullshit again...why they stick their noses in everybody's business is beyond me.
NY
S, you mean. The MTA is a state-level agency.
Of course, I don't know that the rest of the state has a reputation for sticking its nose into things, so now I'm not sure your assessment applies.
Quote from: empirestate on October 13, 2015, 11:49:03 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 13, 2015, 12:17:50 PM
That's the typical NYC bullshit again...why they stick their noses in everybody's business is beyond me.
NYS, you mean. The MTA is a state-level agency.
It's a public authority.
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2015, 09:42:42 AM
Quote from: empirestate on October 13, 2015, 11:49:03 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 13, 2015, 12:17:50 PM
That's the typical NYC bullshit again...why they stick their noses in everybody's business is beyond me.
NYS, you mean. The MTA is a state-level agency.
It's a public authority.
That too.
(Or instead–is there a distinction between an agency and an authority?)
Quote from: empirestate on October 14, 2015, 09:57:59 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2015, 09:42:42 AM
Quote from: empirestate on October 13, 2015, 11:49:03 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 13, 2015, 12:17:50 PM
That's the typical NYC bullshit again...why they stick their noses in everybody's business is beyond me.
NYS, you mean. The MTA is a state-level agency.
It's a public authority.
That too.
(Or instead–is there a distinction between an agency and an authority?)
Yes. An authority is a quasi-private corporation with a board of directors appointed by the State. Other than that, they are exempt from most of the regulations governing government agencies and they can issue their own debt. They allow major public works projects to be accomplished with relative ease, but they bring a slew of problems.
Quote from: empirestate on October 14, 2015, 09:57:59 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2015, 09:42:42 AM
Quote from: empirestate on October 13, 2015, 11:49:03 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 13, 2015, 12:17:50 PM
That's the typical NYC bullshit again...why they stick their noses in everybody's business is beyond me.
NYS, you mean. The MTA is a state-level agency.
It's a public authority.
(Or instead–is there a distinction between an agency and an authority?)
Absolutely, especially in New York State. The Governor has direct control over his agencies. Public authorities (or by their technical, insidious name "public benefit corporations") operate mostly outside of the state. The Governor can
nominate some people to the board of the MTA, but I believe such nominations are subject to other members' approval (NYC and probably LI counties). Less than half of the MTA's funding comes from state sources (e.g., taxes and subsidies), so all the brouhaha over the MTA budget in NY is only semi-oversight.
So, it's little wonder why the MTA and other public authorities can become convoluted monsters to manage and get the results that the public desires from them. In fact, it makes me wonder why those that operate well do so given what a mess the MTA is (probably much fewer cooks spoiling the broth, say, with the Thruway Authority).
Quote from: cl94 on October 14, 2015, 10:00:48 AM
Quote from: empirestate on October 14, 2015, 09:57:59 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2015, 09:42:42 AM
Quote from: empirestate on October 13, 2015, 11:49:03 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 13, 2015, 12:17:50 PM
That's the typical NYC bullshit again...why they stick their noses in everybody's business is beyond me.
NYS, you mean. The MTA is a state-level agency.
It's a public authority.
That too.
(Or instead–is there a distinction between an agency and an authority?)
Yes. An authority is a quasi-private corporation with a board of directors appointed by the State. Other than that, they are exempt from most of the regulations governing government agencies and they can issue their own debt. They allow major public works projects to be accomplished with relative ease, but they bring a slew of problems.
Not technically true in the case of the MTA.
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2015, 10:09:59 AM
Quote from: empirestate on October 14, 2015, 09:57:59 AM
(Or instead–is there a distinction between an agency and an authority?)
Absolutely, especially in New York State. The Governor has direct control over his agencies. Public authorities (or by their technical, insidious name "public benefit corporations") operate mostly outside of the state.
I see. I was using "agency" as a general term, not considering that it had an official meaning for components of the state government. Yes, "authority" then.
But, point being that the MTA accounts–to the extent that public authorities are accountable at all–to the state government rather than the city (any of the cities it serves). That is to say, they are creatures of the state, created by legislative action and bound (also unbound) by the state constitution.
Quote from: empirestate on October 14, 2015, 10:52:12 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2015, 10:09:59 AM
Quote from: empirestate on October 14, 2015, 09:57:59 AM
(Or instead–is there a distinction between an agency and an authority?)
Absolutely, especially in New York State. The Governor has direct control over his agencies. Public authorities (or by their technical, insidious name "public benefit corporations") operate mostly outside of the state.
I see. I was using "agency" as a general term, not considering that it had an official meaning for components of the state government. Yes, "authority" then.
But, point being that the MTA accounts–to the extent that public authorities are accountable at all–to the state government rather than the city (any of the cities it serves). That is to say, they are creatures of the state, created by legislative action and bound (also unbound) by the state constitution.
Well, the MTA has to account to the state on some of their budget, but they do also "answer" to NYC and LI in similar, limited regards (i.e., members of their board come from them).
Public authorities are more like monsters created by the state: They're created by legislation but really "spun off" where their accountability is not totally controlled by the state. Some experts consider them separate from the state altogether and just "regulated" like any other business or individual (i.e., none of us is outside of the law).
(TANGENT: I was at a meeting where an official from the NYS Dormitory Authority presented and reveled in how public authorities are separate from the State of NY Government. I do think he exaggerated somewhat, given the limited oversight the State has over his authority, but it is true that public authorities are technically separate from mainline government agencies and administration)
Indeed, MTA's business does largely involve NYC and, as you point out, other counties in the region. So, to the point at hand, MTA's action in the Kentucky E-ZPass case can't be chalked up to "NYC bullshit", because MTA isn't an exact surrogate for that city, or any one city.
iPhone
Well, I guess I was a bit confused. Still, NY should not have interfered with KY's plans.
Quote from: Henry on October 14, 2015, 12:23:06 PM
Well, I guess I was a bit confused. Still, NY should not have interfered with KY's plans.
New York is a stakeholder in the technology. If Kentucky wanted a resident discount plan, why didn't they just use what's already available on E-ZPass instead of using a separate system? It certainly raises a bit of suspicion. Is Kentucky trying to hide something? From an engineering perspective, it would probably cost
more money to use two technologies instead of one because you'd have to have the infrastructure to support both.
Take the Atlantic Beach Bridge on Long Island that won't join E-ZPass because it would open their accounting to outside audit. There's a lot of corruption in that agency that can't be fully exposed because they're hiding their finances. The MTA is probably afraid Kentucky would be doing the same thing on a lesser scale.
Quote from: Henry on October 14, 2015, 12:23:06 PM
Well, I guess I was a bit confused. Still, NY should not have interfered with KY's plans.
It was called the Interagency Group for a reason. If you join the group, you can't join halfway. The group exists to ensure standardization, not diminish it.
I suspect that the MTA wants no part of 6C transponders and is afraid allowing Kentucky in would result in a technology change down the road. Remember, this is the agency that didn't demolish the eastbound half of the Verrazano toll barrier for YEARS after it went to one-way tolling. They also still use gate arms at almost all of their toll plazas.
Quote from: cl94 on October 14, 2015, 12:31:47 PM
Take the Atlantic Beach Bridge on Long Island that won't join E-ZPass because it would open their accounting to outside audit. There's a lot of corruption in that agency that can't be fully exposed because they're hiding their finances.
Don't they also use toll collector jobs as patronage positions?
Quote from: vdeane on October 14, 2015, 03:19:58 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 14, 2015, 12:31:47 PM
Take the Atlantic Beach Bridge on Long Island that won't join E-ZPass because it would open their accounting to outside audit. There's a lot of corruption in that agency that can't be fully exposed because they're hiding their finances.
Don't they also use toll collector jobs as patronage positions?
O.o. If I made a political donation and they gave my kid a toll collector job, I'd want my money back. :D
Quote from: vdeane on October 14, 2015, 03:19:58 PM
I suspect that the MTA wants no part of 6C transponders and is afraid allowing Kentucky in would result in a technology change down the road. Remember, this is the agency that didn't demolish the eastbound half of the Verrazano toll barrier for YEARS after it went to one-way tolling. They also still use gate arms at almost all of their toll plazas.
Why? Open road tolling is a great thing and makes traveling down a tollway so much easier. Yes, there is leakage, but ORT can also be so attractive to most folks that they get a transponder so they never have to roll down their window and stop. Making electronic tolls half the price of cash tolls never hurt as a carrot either.
Out of curiosity, what are the ETC rates for the MTA and other toll authorities, particularly those on the east coast? I know that ISTHA runs about 87% ETC using the above ideas (ORT, 1/2 price electronic tolls, no monthly fee).
Quote from: cl94 on October 14, 2015, 12:31:47 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 14, 2015, 12:23:06 PM
Well, I guess I was a bit confused. Still, NY should not have interfered with KY's plans.
New York is a stakeholder in the technology. If Kentucky wanted a resident discount plan, why didn't they just use what's already available on E-ZPass instead of using a separate system? It certainly raises a bit of suspicion. Is Kentucky trying to hide something? From an engineering perspective, it would probably cost more money to use two technologies instead of one because you'd have to have the infrastructure to support both.
There are actually going to be three technologies -- E-ZPass transponders, the commuter stickers and toll-by-plate for vehicles that don't have either of those two.
Still, this does little to dispel the stereotypes southerners/midwesterners (since there seems to be some debate about where Louisville actually belongs, I used both regions) have about NYC and the Northeast and the practices of the people and agencies therein. :-P
Quote from: Brandon on October 14, 2015, 04:31:12 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 14, 2015, 03:19:58 PM
I suspect that the MTA wants no part of 6C transponders and is afraid allowing Kentucky in would result in a technology change down the road. Remember, this is the agency that didn't demolish the eastbound half of the Verrazano toll barrier for YEARS after it went to one-way tolling. They also still use gate arms at almost all of their toll plazas.
Why? Open road tolling is a great thing and makes traveling down a tollway so much easier. Yes, there is leakage, but ORT can also be so attractive to most folks that they get a transponder so they never have to roll down their window and stop. Making electronic tolls half the price of cash tolls never hurt as a carrot either.
Out of curiosity, what are the ETC rates for the MTA and other toll authorities, particularly those on the east coast? I know that ISTHA runs about 87% ETC using the above ideas (ORT, 1/2 price electronic tolls, no monthly fee).
Depends greatly.
Here are the Thruway statistics (http://www.thruway.ny.gov/about/financial/monthly/2015/vtm/aug2015vtm.pdf) from August 2015. On the the western ticket system, slightly over half of users have E-ZPass, with 2/3 on the main ticket system. Most of the E-ZPass usage on the main system is likely concentrated between Exits 16 and 25A. Discounts are about 10%. NYSTA will never switch to ORT and, given the amount of cash users, it would make things a big PITA. Tourists to Niagara Falls, the Adirondacks, Canada, and New England likely won't get E-ZPass if they'll never use it.
The MTA runs at 85% and they are switching over to AET. They're taking things slow so they can be able to go after CT drivers who don't pay. E-ZPass discounts are huge.
Point is, with a lot of the stuff in the Northeast, especially stuff that runs on a ticket system, there are a lot of tourists from out of the region.
Quote from: vdeane on October 14, 2015, 03:19:58 PM
I suspect that the MTA wants no part of 6C transponders and is afraid allowing Kentucky in would result in a technology change down the road. Remember, this is the agency that didn't demolish the eastbound half of the Verrazano toll barrier for YEARS after it went to one-way tolling. They also still use gate arms at almost all of their toll plazas.
Quote from: cl94 on October 14, 2015, 12:31:47 PM
Take the Atlantic Beach Bridge on Long Island that won't join E-ZPass because it would open their accounting to outside audit. There's a lot of corruption in that agency that can't be fully exposed because they're hiding their finances.
Don't they also use toll collector jobs as patronage positions?
They are used as patronage positions. Children of friends/family members often get part-time evening, weekend, and summer work as toll collectors. Having this in the MTA service area probably makes them a little extra cautious about revenue sources that can't be easily audited.
The MTA would probably also lose the most by a technology shift. MTA tags go to everyone in NYC, Long Island, and some of the lower Hudson Valley (IIRC). Some people in CT may have them as well to get the NY discount. As the vast majority of vehicles in the region have E-ZPass, it's one of the largest issuers of tags. The New York service center is likely the largest tag issuer by volume. A change would force them to reissue every tag and there are probably over a million scattered around New York, surrounding states and southern Ontario.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 14, 2015, 06:15:24 PM
Still, this does little to dispel the stereotypes southerners/midwesterners (since there seems to be some debate about where Louisville actually belongs, I used both regions) have about NYC and the Northeast and the practices of the people and agencies therein. :-P
Be that as it may, we don't have any indication that those stereotypes bear a resemblance to the MTA's true motivations, do we? We had been discussing quite rationally the idea that they were concerned about a competing technology being used; that's not a stereotypical trait of the Northeast, is it?
iPhone
Quote from: empirestate on October 14, 2015, 07:32:21 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 14, 2015, 06:15:24 PM
Still, this does little to dispel the stereotypes southerners/midwesterners (since there seems to be some debate about where Louisville actually belongs, I used both regions) have about NYC and the Northeast and the practices of the people and agencies therein. :-P
Be that as it may, we don't have any indication that those stereotypes bear a resemblance to the MTA's true motivations, do we? We had been discussing quite rationally the idea that they were concerned about a competing technology being used; that's not a stereotypical trait of the Northeast, is it?
I'm not saying that's my opinion. I'm just saying that's probably what more than a few people in the Louisville region are saying.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 14, 2015, 06:15:24 PM
Still, this does little to dispel the stereotypes southerners/midwesterners (since there seems to be some debate about where Louisville actually belongs, I used both regions) have about NYC and the Northeast and the practices of the people and agencies therein. :-P
The true cultural dividing line between the Midwest and South is I-70.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 15, 2015, 03:22:07 PM
Quote from: empirestate on October 14, 2015, 07:32:21 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 14, 2015, 06:15:24 PM
Still, this does little to dispel the stereotypes southerners/midwesterners (since there seems to be some debate about where Louisville actually belongs, I used both regions) have about NYC and the Northeast and the practices of the people and agencies therein. :-P
Be that as it may, we don't have any indication that those stereotypes bear a resemblance to the MTA's true motivations, do we? We had been discussing quite rationally the idea that they were concerned about a competing technology being used; that's not a stereotypical trait of the Northeast, is it?
I'm not saying that's my opinion. I'm just saying that's probably what more than a few people in the Louisville region are saying.
Oh, I've no doubt. But I'd be surprised if a whole lot of folks were saying it specifically in reference to the E-ZPass situation–is it really that much in the public eye? Or were you just thinking of the present comment?
Quote from: Brandon on October 14, 2015, 04:31:12 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 14, 2015, 03:19:58 PM
I suspect that the MTA wants no part of 6C transponders and is afraid allowing Kentucky in would result in a technology change down the road. Remember, this is the agency that didn't demolish the eastbound half of the Verrazano toll barrier for YEARS after it went to one-way tolling. They also still use gate arms at almost all of their toll plazas.
Why? Open road tolling is a great thing and makes traveling down a tollway so much easier.
Unions. Currently there are TBTA police officers patrolling the toll plazas on foot. If you get stuck in an EZpass lane without an EZpass, a cop comes over to collect your toll and possibly write you a ticket, and then manually open the gate for you. Hence, the gates can't easily be removed because laying off the workers manning them is politically problematic.
As for why the MTA would veto Kentucky's entry, the aforementioned reason is exactly correct - currently MTA crossings can only read hard case active transponders. They don't want anyone on the EZpass board issuing passive stickers because they don't want to have to spend money installing equipment to read them.
The stickers of course are cheaper to make and are used by most non-EZpass toll agencies. It's understandable that Kentucky would want to partially use them since it's likely that in the future that will become the national standard. But the MTA wants none of that since they have their set way of doing things and don't want to change it.
In other words, Kentucky... the MTA is introducing you to a good ol' NYC-style turf war. If you want to alter the status quo you had better be prepared to prove that you're more stubborn than they are. Good luck.
So does this mean my I-Pass will not work on the new bridges??
No, just means Kentucky will probably have to levy a slightly higher toll rate to cover the per-toll fee to the consortium for E-ZPass (IAG) tag reads, like apparently is the case in NC, who also are predominantly 6C sticker with an IAG tag option.
Quote from: lordsutch on October 20, 2015, 01:05:18 PM
No, just means Kentucky will probably have to levy a slightly higher toll rate to cover the per-toll fee to the consortium for E-ZPass (IAG) tag reads, like apparently is the case in NC, who also are predominantly 6C sticker with an IAG tag option.
Or they can just drop the 6C sticker. How many toll users use the hard case in comparison to a 6C sticker? Most people from out of the area would have a hard case as neighboring states tend to use E-ZPass or a compatible system.
If you want to join a club, you gotta play by the club's rules.
Quote from: cl94 on October 20, 2015, 02:09:09 PM
Or they can just drop the 6C sticker. How many toll users use the hard case in comparison to a 6C sticker? Most people from out of the area would have a hard case as neighboring states tend to use E-ZPass or a compatible system.
The passive 6C stickers are far cheaper (less than $1 each in bulk) than active tags, and they don't have to share any money with IAG for 6C tag reads. Even a portable passive 6C tag would be substantially cheaper than IAG, although I don't think anyone offers these (yet) since the "tape it to your windshield" hack is widely-enough known.
On a commuter bridge the vast majority of users are going to be local. So for KY there's a huge cost savings for going with 6C for people who don't plan to drive the Indiana Toll Road at the other end of the state or use the WV Pike, the two closest E-ZPass facilities of consequence.
And, as mentioned earlier, IAG members are going to have to suck it up and accept non-local 6C tags (and 6B tags like SunPass and TxTag) anyway due to the interop mandate next year. Technology marches on.
Honestly, I'd rather the rest of the country just adopt E-ZPass. If the other states had jumped on the E-ZPass system when electronic tolling was being deployed in the rest of the US, we wouldn't have these issues now. Why did they feel the need to reinvent the wheel?
Can passive transponders even WORK in a true ticket system in the first place? Just accepting them would seem to require a complete redesign of the tolling systems for many highways. Besides, ticket systems are just much more elegant than the barrier systems that are being proliferated. Which would you rather see on a statement:
10/20/15 NYSTA 16 12:45:37 3 18 1:13:49 1 $1.38
OR
10/20/15 NYSTA NBG 12:45:37 2 --- --------- - $1.19
10/20/15 NYSTA NPZ 12:58:24 1 --- --------- - $0.71
And that's just two exits. I would have used a longer example, but calculating travel times and toll amounts takes WORK. The first example is a nice, readable entry summarizing the trip with the entry and exit points and the total cost. The second example is a spammy, less readable thing filled with filler data and requiring math if someone wants to figure out the total cost for a single trip on the Thruway.
Quote from: vdeane on October 20, 2015, 08:19:38 PM
Can passive transponders even WORK in a true ticket system in the first place? Just accepting them would seem to require a complete redesign of the tolling systems for many highways. Besides, ticket systems are just much more elegant than the barrier systems that are being proliferated.
SunPass seems to work fine with both active and passive transponders in the SunPass customer base (mine was a passive sticker tag), both of them working the same on ticketed roads (like most of Florida's Turnpike) and the ones with barrier tolls (such as the rest of the Turnpike).
I'd rather have an active transponder for all the systems I travel, so I can easily switch between vehicles. But sticker tags cost less than active transponders. Sunpass stickers cost about $5-6, while the TxTag sticker in my truck was free.
Quote from: vdeane on October 20, 2015, 08:19:38 PM
Honestly, I'd rather the rest of the country just adopt E-ZPass. If the other states had jumped on the E-ZPass system when electronic tolling was being deployed in the rest of the US, we wouldn't have these issues now. Why did they feel the need to reinvent the wheel?
Let's put it this way: 26 states have toll roads. 15 accept E-ZPass. How many of the other ones even have barriers that require cash customers to stop? Florida, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas, not counting toll bridges. Only Oklahoma's system predates E-ZPass. The main difference is technology. When it all started, there were two protocols. Why one wasn't chosen and the other abandoned is beyond me, but the result is a system where most of the infrastructure is E-ZPass-compatible, but there is enough that isn't compatible to inhibit cross-honoring.
Additionally,
passive and
active refers to the technology, not the type of transponder. Passive technology can come in hard cases.
Edit: Listed Kansas twice instead of Texas
Quote from: lordsutch on October 20, 2015, 04:20:57 PM
And, as mentioned earlier, IAG members are going to have to suck it up and accept non-local 6C tags (and 6B tags like SunPass and TxTag) anyway due to the interop mandate next year. Technology marches on.
Don't be so sure. Kentucky just got another extension to RealID requirements for driver's licenses, so it's entirely possible that the mandate will be delayed yet again.
(Kentucky's issue with RealID is that driver's licenses are not issued by the Transportation Cabinet or other state offices, but by the circuit court clerk's office in each county. This is the same office that handles lawsuits, payment of fines, etc., and the issue is that the courthouses will need to meet stringent federal security requirements before Kentucky will be RealID-compliant.)
Quote from: hbelkins on October 20, 2015, 09:31:25 PM
Quote from: lordsutch on October 20, 2015, 04:20:57 PM
And, as mentioned earlier, IAG members are going to have to suck it up and accept non-local 6C tags (and 6B tags like SunPass and TxTag) anyway due to the interop mandate next year. Technology marches on.
Don't be so sure. Kentucky just got another extension to RealID requirements for driver's licenses, so it's entirely possible that the mandate will be delayed yet again.
(Kentucky's issue with RealID is that driver's licenses are not issued by the Transportation Cabinet or other state offices, but by the circuit court clerk's office in each county. This is the same office that handles lawsuits, payment of fines, etc., and the issue is that the courthouses will need to meet stringent federal security requirements before Kentucky will be RealID-compliant.)
Given the current state of political affairs, I wouldn't be so certain that everything remains in the county clerk's office for much longer, either
Quote from: oscar on October 20, 2015, 08:50:01 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 20, 2015, 08:19:38 PM
Can passive transponders even WORK in a true ticket system in the first place? Just accepting them would seem to require a complete redesign of the tolling systems for many highways. Besides, ticket systems are just much more elegant than the barrier systems that are being proliferated.
SunPass seems to work fine with both active and passive transponders in the SunPass customer base (mine was a passive sticker tag), both of them working the same on ticketed roads (like most of Florida's Turnpike) and the ones with barrier tolls (such as the rest of the Turnpike).
I'd rather have an active transponder for all the systems I travel, so I can easily switch between vehicles. But sticker tags cost less than active transponders. Sunpass stickers cost about $5-6, while the TxTag sticker in my truck was free.
It's also worth noting that a sticker tag can be transferred between vehicles, instructions notwithstanding. Based on advice I received on this forum, I attached my SunPass Mini sticker tag to my windshield using scotch tape and I never removed the tag's backing paper. I have two cars registered to my SunPass account but just the one tag. It's been stuck up there with tape for somewhat more than four years now and it still works just fine (on the ticket-system part of the Turnpike, the various ORT facilities, and the old-style plazas with "SunPass Only" lanes). As it happens I've never moved it to another car because we never take Ms1995hoo's car on long trips (mine is just more comfortable) and I haven't rented a car in Florida since 2008, but if we ever fly down and rent a car, I'll bring my SunPass Mini with me (and probably add the rental to my account while I'm driving it).
Quote from: cl94 on October 20, 2015, 09:25:16 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 20, 2015, 08:19:38 PM
Honestly, I'd rather the rest of the country just adopt E-ZPass. If the other states had jumped on the E-ZPass system when electronic tolling was being deployed in the rest of the US, we wouldn't have these issues now. Why did they feel the need to reinvent the wheel?
Let's put it this way: 26 states have toll roads. 15 accept E-ZPass. How many of the other ones even have barriers that require cash customers to stop? Florida, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas, not counting toll bridges.
Some additional states (like Texas) use "barrier" systems, but most or all their toll roads are cash-less (either transponder, or pay-by-plate). California might be similar -- using hard-case transponders that aren't interoperable with E-ZPass -- though I'm not sure whether it's gone as far as Texas in going cash-less.
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 20, 2015, 09:39:14 PM
It's also worth noting that a sticker tag can be transferred between vehicles, instructions notwithstanding. Based on advice I received on this forum, I attached my SunPass Mini sticker tag to my windshield using scotch tape and I never removed the tag's backing paper. I have two cars registered to my SunPass account but just the one tag. It's been stuck up there with tape for somewhat more than four years now and it still works just fine (on the ticket-system part of the Turnpike, the various ORT facilities, and the old-style plazas with "SunPass Only" lanes). As it happens I've never moved it to another car because we never take Ms1995hoo's car on long trips (mine is just more comfortable) and I haven't rented a car in Florida since 2008, but if we ever fly down and rent a car, I'll bring my SunPass Mini with me (and probably add the rental to my account while I'm driving it).
Yeah, I permanently mounted my SunPass Mini to my car's windshield, so it did not survive when I cracked the windshield in Saskatchewan. Next time I'm down in Florida, I'll have to buy another SunPass sticker, and this time use the scotch-tape trick.
I'm not sure the same trick would work for my truck's TxTag sticker (looks similar to a SunPass Mini), which came with rather fussy mounting instructions that knowledgeable users might successfully ignore.
The tape method of attaching the stickers has always struck me as inelegant.
Quote from: vdeane on October 21, 2015, 01:18:38 PM
The tape method of attaching the stickers has always struck me as inelegant.
It is, but who cares? I'd rather maintain portability than have it permanently affixed there.
Quote from: cl94 on October 20, 2015, 09:36:28 PM
Given the current state of political affairs, I wouldn't be so certain that everything remains in the county clerk's office for much longer, either
Not the county clerk, the circuit clerk. That's an easily forgiven mistake because a lot of Kentuckians get the offices confused. The official titles are county court clerk and circuit court clerk. They have vastly different duties.
The county clerk is responsible for keeping minutes of fiscal court meetings. The fiscal court in Kentucky is basically the county legislature. It is made up of a county judge-executive and either magistrates or commissioners, depending on the county's preference. Years ago the CJE and magistrates actually had judicial powers concerning traffic offenses, and I think minor misdemeanors, but the judicial system was revamped by state constitutional amendment to remove their judicial powers. Now the fiscal court passes ordinances and approves the county budget.
The county clerk's office is also responsible for recording documents like deeds (and yes, issuing and recording marriage licenses), registering voters, administering elections and issuing license plates.
The circuit court clerk's office maintains court dockets for criminal and civil cases in district (misdemeanor, traffic and small claims suits) and circuit (felonies and other lawsuits) courts. They also issue driver's licenses, and can also register voters with the advent of "motor-voter" laws.
Moving driver licensing duties from the circuit clerk's office to KYTC would result in KYTC having to obtain office space in each of the 120 counties, plus possibly satellite offices in some of the larger counties. It would result in an additional expense.
My guess is that the court system is responsible for driver licensing because the decision was made that it would be logical since traffic offenses can result in license suspensions or revocations.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 21, 2015, 02:04:49 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 20, 2015, 09:36:28 PM
Given the current state of political affairs, I wouldn't be so certain that everything remains in the county clerk's office for much longer, either
Not the county clerk, the circuit clerk. That's an easily forgiven mistake because a lot of Kentuckians get the offices confused. The official titles are county court clerk and circuit court clerk. They have vastly different duties.
Jeesh. And I thought New York had a crazy system. So each county has its own circuit court clerk?
Quote from: vdeane on October 20, 2015, 08:19:38 PM
Honestly, I'd rather the rest of the country just adopt E-ZPass. If the other states had jumped on the E-ZPass system when electronic tolling was being deployed in the rest of the US, we wouldn't have these issues now. Why did they feel the need to reinvent the wheel?
You have to remember as well that in the early days of EZ Pass, only a few states accepted EZ Pass. Virginia had their own system. Indiana had their own system. Maryland had their own system. It took a while before those states accepted EZ Pass. While we look back now and think of it as being quick, quite a number of years went by before everything merged together.
Virginia, for example, started out their electronic toll system accepting only Fastoll in 1996, which was rebranded as Smart Tag in 1998. In 2004 EZ Pass was accepted in Virginia, and in 2008 they retired the Smart Tag name completely.
Due to fortunate planning by a few states that understood the transponders would need to be used across multiple agencies, EZ Pass and the Interagency group was born. And because every state in the northeast portion of the country had luckily went with the same technology platform, agencies that weren't originally with the Interagency Group were able to merge in relatively easily.
EZ Pass may not have even stuck if it wasn't for some what could be now considered miscues in other states. Florida has 5 toll roads...and each toll road's electronic toll system worked specifically for that toll road only. If one state had 5 different systems with just thousands of users each, and a half-dozen states had 1 system with millions of users crossing between states, the clear winner in the electronic toll race was going to be the one reaching a lot more people at once.
It really isn't much different than the national credit card companies that exist - Visa, MasterCard, Discover, AmEx, and some other smaller players. They just needed to work together to get their cards accepted everywhere at one time. And remember here too...gotta think back to the days of the carbon copy receipts, which retailers had to send in to the various card companies. Just like electronic tolling, the credit card processing is seamless now, but it wasn't always that way.
Quote from: vdeane on October 21, 2015, 01:18:38 PM
The tape method of attaching the stickers has always struck me as inelegant.
Stickers have no concept of elegance. :bigass:
/Bonus points for those who get the parody.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 21, 2015, 02:04:49 PM
Moving driver licensing duties from the circuit clerk's office to KYTC would result in KYTC having to obtain office space in each of the 120 counties, plus possibly satellite offices in some of the larger counties. It would result in an additional expense.
Doesn't KYTC already handle vehicle registrations, though? Why would they need more offices to issue licenses than they have to register vehicles?
Quote from: vdeane on October 21, 2015, 01:18:38 PM
The tape method of attaching the stickers has always struck me as inelegant.
But it works, and it allows you to use your account in multiple vehicles without having to shell out money for a new one.
I've had the same EZpass tag for more than six years and in that time it has been affixed to two cars I've owned and used in several rentals. If I had mounted my SunPass as instructed I would have lost it when I sold my last car. And, in the meantime, my old car would have had a perpetual sign on it saying "owner of this vehicle can afford to routinely drive to Florida, therefore there may be nice things in here you can steal if you break in". NO THANKS.
Of course, the latter concerns would vanish if the sticker in question were used locally or the nationally accepted standard. I have no qualms leaving my EZpass mounted since my license plates already reveal I'm from a place where EZpass is used.
And frankly I'd be fine mounting a sticker normally and surrendering the portability IF we banned rental agencies from charging fees for use of their toll payment equipment. So long as that remains common practice I'm gonna continue with the BYO tag.
Quote from: Duke87 on October 21, 2015, 10:30:29 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 21, 2015, 02:04:49 PM
Moving driver licensing duties from the circuit clerk's office to KYTC would result in KYTC having to obtain office space in each of the 120 counties, plus possibly satellite offices in some of the larger counties. It would result in an additional expense.
Doesn't KYTC already handle vehicle registrations, though? Why would they need more offices to issue licenses than they have to register vehicles?
Yes, but vehicle licensing is done in the county clerk's office, not in a separate KYTC office. If the driver licensing operation was moved out of the circuit clerk's office, there would have to be another location for it.
Quote from: cl94 on October 21, 2015, 02:09:56 PM
Jeesh. And I thought New York had a crazy system. So each county has its own circuit court clerk?
Yes, and it's an elected partisan position (6-year term). County clerks are elected for four-year terms as partisan officials, circuit clerks are elected for six-year terms as partisan officials.
QuoteAnd, in the meantime, my old car would have had a perpetual sign on it saying "owner of this vehicle can afford to routinely drive to Florida, therefore there may be nice things in here you can steal if you break in". NO THANKS.
That might be giving thieves too much credit. The sticker tags look similar to other devices like apartment complex gate sticker tags and the like. I doubt most people outside states where sticker-type toll transponders are common would think of that sort of thing. People on this forum are WAY more informed than the average guy on the street!
Kentucky has now been approved as a member in the E-ZPass Group: http://transportation.ky.gov/Pages/PressReleasePage.aspx?&FilterField1=ID&FilterValue1=152
Saw that in my email this morning. If a Kentucky E-ZPass is going to cost $15, I think I'll keep my West Virginia model.
So wait, the JFK and East End Bridges will be tolled, but Clark and Sherman Minton will remain free?
Ooookay, Louisville's gonna have some shunpiking-induced traffic jams then.
Quote from: Duke87 on November 15, 2015, 12:44:16 AM
So wait, the JFK and East End Bridges will be tolled, but Clark and Sherman Minton will remain free?
Ooookay, Louisville's gonna have some shunpiking-induced traffic jams then.
I don't think shunpiking the East End Bridge is going to be a huge issue - traffic would have to take I-71 down to Exit 2 (Zorn Ave) and then use Mellwood and Story Ave to get to Main Street just to be able to access the Clark Memorial Bridge at 2nd Street. By then you've probably used at least $1 worth of gas, possibly more if traffic is slow.
Shunpiking I-65 will be a huge issue, although I imagine there will be a lot of late converts after the first few days of seeing thousands of vehicles trying to get off at Exit 1 in Indiana during the evening rush hour, or when Court Avenue becomes practically unusable. Main, Market, and Liberty Streets in Downtown Louisville will also experience the same initial fate.
Trying to get to and from the US 31 bridge and I-65 in downtown Louisville is so difficult and convoluted that it wouldn't be worth the effort to shunpike.
Were they granted full membership or affiliate membership (like North Carolina)?
Quote from: cl94 on November 15, 2015, 09:32:13 PM
Were they granted full membership or affiliate membership (like North Carolina)?
Wasn't specified in the press release, but my guess would be "affiliate" unless MTA relented on its position.