AARoads Forum

The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority has launched a $5 billion,15 year project. Details are at
www.accessoklahoma.com

More details to come.

Some of the changes are:
Indian Nation

Quote
Indian Nation north of Daisy, Indian Nation at SH-63 near Blanco, Indian Nation at Indianola, Indian Nation at US-69 in McAlester.

Will Rogers
6 lane from Catoosa to Claremore
Cimarron
New interchange at Glencoe
HE Bailey

Quote
HEB at SH-5A/Cookietown, HEB at Fletcher, HEB at Cyril, HEB at Cement, HEB at Norge, HEB at SH-92, HEB at Amber

The Turner is getting most of the love. 6 lane from Kellyville to OKC:

Quote
The Turner Turnpike is a vital turnpike corridor that connects Oklahoma's
two metro areas.  Improving safety and convenience on this road is a priority for the OTA. This reconstruction/safety project will occur between I-35 and Bristow. These projects will create an "urban turnpike corridor"  with lighting, wider lanes and the addition of lanes. It will allow for the future creation of truck-specific and HOV lanes for quick and safe access. Design package to include interchanges at Post Rd, SH-102, SH-18 in Chandler, N3503 at Davenport, SH-99 in Stroud, S 481st at Depew and SH-16 and
SH-48 at Bristow.

WOW, the OKC changes are HUGE!

Extend the Kickapoo south and west to connect with I35 north of Purcell
An E-W connector from the Kickapoo along Indian Hills Road to I44
JKT extension from OK152 south and east to I44 near Earlywine GC.
6 lane JKT from I40 to existing 6 lanes at MacArthur
Directional ramps at Lake Hefner Parkway (EB to SB and NB to WB)
Extend frontage roads past Council to Countyline with a full interchange at Countyline

Missed one. They will complete the Gilcrease in northwest Tulsa

Quote
This project completes the western loop around the Tulsa metro area. The project connects from the northern terminus of the new Gilcrease Expressway West at Edison north and east to LL Tisdale Parkway. It will help relieve urban traffic congestion during peak periods. It will also provide a new and more direct route to city attractions and points of interest in the Tulsa urban core. This will bolster safe access to Tulsa along with economic growth and opportunity. Includes interchanges at Newton St, Apache St, N 41st W Ave, N Gilcrease Museum Rd, Osage Dr, LL Tisdale, MLK Blvd.

With regards to the OKC metro projects, the Kickapoo extension will be really nice. Norman will end up expanding and having the alternate NS route alongside 35 will help with congestion and for bypassing downtown OKC. Can't help but feel that some of these projects are a little overkill though. The JKT Tri-City connector has a $252 million budget to add a freeway south of Will Rodgers when Airport Road works just fine (plus I thought it was being upgraded for the proposed 240 extension). Same thoughts with the EW connector in Moore/Norman, I think having the HEB Norman spur and 240 suffices for EW connections for the metro and it seems a little redundant. The combined price tags of those connectors is around $1 billion and I think investing that into public transportation around OKC (can we get a light rail network?) would be a better option for long term sustainability.

Looks like OKC is getting several new turnpikes. Kickapoo extension to Purcell, Kilpatrick extension to I-44 near "Tri-City" (which is something I had never heard of until today, it is apparently the Blanchard/Newcastle/Tuttle area), and an east-west connector from "Tri-City" to the proposed Kilpatrick extension, which will serve Moore and Norman, as well as a widened Turner Turnpike at the OKC end. All Tulsa is getting is a Gilcrease extension and a widened Will Rogers Turnpike to Claremore. We now know that the missing piece of the Gilcrease/Sequoyah loop will be a toll road. I wonder if OK 344 will end at the Tisdale or if it will take over the rest of the Gilcrease west of OK 11.

Boy, this makes the I-240 loop designation look stupid, doesn't it?

Quote from: Cerlin on February 22, 2022, 02:04:12 PM
With regards to the OKC metro projects, the Kickapoo extension will be really nice. Norman will end up expanding and having the alternate NS route alongside 35 will help with congestion and for bypassing downtown OKC. Can't help but feel that some of these projects are a little overkill though. The JKT Tri-City connector has a $252 million budget to add a freeway south of Will Rodgers when Airport Road works just fine (plus I thought it was being upgraded for the proposed 240 extension). Same thoughts with the EW connector in Moore/Norman, I think having the HEB Norman spur and 240 suffices for EW connections for the metro and it seems a little redundant. The combined price tags of those connectors is around $1 billion and I think investing that into public transportation around OKC (can we get a light rail network?) would be a better option for long term sustainability.

The problem with E-W connections in this area is that the only way to connect from the Norman area to I-44 is to loop south to the I-35 bridge near Riverwind or connect up through Moore. If there are issues with either one of those bridges, you have to go way out of the way to bypass them. And there's no clean connection between the two interstates (SH-9 has a breezewood-lite in the Riverwind area, Moore is Moore).

This will at least add a third bridge in the area, though I wish it was a little bit further south, like at about Robinson, so that there's a straight shot from Norman into Newcastle. A bridge in that area will be needed desperately if Newcastle continues to grow as it has been.

Quote from: bugo on February 22, 2022, 02:15:04 PM
Looks like OKC is getting several new turnpikes. Kickapoo extension to Purcell, Kilpatrick extension to I-44 near "Tri-City" (which is something I had never heard of until today, it is apparently the Blanchard/Newcastle/Tuttle area) [...]

"Tri-City" usually specifically refers to the developed area around the I-44/OK-37 west interchange. The shopping center on the south side of the highway, which included an old-school Walmart with no groceries, was called "Tri-City" and had a large sign advertising it as such that has since been removed (but the access road is still called "Tri-City Drive").

Later, the Chickasaw Nation took over Tri-City; the Wal-Mart is now their training center (I spent many an unpleasant hour there getting paid to take unnecessary classes and learning nothing) and the rest of the space is given over to Gaming Capital Group, which is a major vendor who services the slot machines found in Chickasaw casinos. I believe that's where their parts warehouse and repair center is (for when machine parts cannot be repaired in the field).

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 22, 2022, 02:46:03 PM
Boy, this makes the I-240 loop designation look stupid, doesn't it?

Tim Gatz said something about 240 being a part of one of the new pikes but I missed the reference to which one.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.okctalk.com%2Fimages%2Fpete%2Fturnpikes022222b.jpg&hash=490df875baf18bdfc38a279316f601aff3df801d)

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 22, 2022, 02:46:03 PM
Boy, this makes the I-240 loop designation look stupid, doesn't it?

I'm not holding my breath but perhaps there's a slim chance OkDOT will rethink the I-240 thing.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 22, 2022, 06:08:11 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 22, 2022, 02:46:03 PM
Boy, this makes the I-240 loop designation look stupid, doesn't it?

I'm not holding my breath but perhaps there's a slim chance OkDOT will rethink the I-240 thing.

Probably too late for that–it's already been approved by AASHTO.

As an aside, when I first saw this map, you were first person I thought of, given the inclusion of the east-west turnpike along the Indian Hills corridor. I know you've been advocating for that for years. (Wonder what designation it will get? It would make the most sense to route SH-37 onto it, since nobody actually uses that designation in Moore, but that's probably dependent on ODOT turning 4th Street over to Moore. 337 would do, I suppose, or an I-x35.)

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 22, 2022, 06:21:36 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 22, 2022, 06:08:11 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 22, 2022, 02:46:03 PM
Boy, this makes the I-240 loop designation look stupid, doesn't it?

I'm not holding my breath but perhaps there's a slim chance OkDOT will rethink the I-240 thing.

Probably too late for that–it's already been approved by AASHTO.

As an aside, when I first saw this map, you were first person I thought of, given the inclusion of the east-west turnpike along the Indian Hills corridor. I know you've been advocating for that for years. (Wonder what designation it will get? It would make the most sense to route SH-37 onto it, since nobody actually uses that designation in Moore, but that's probably dependent on ODOT turning 4th Street over to Moore. 337 would do, I suppose, or an I-x35.)

Right now my mind is too happy on the fact this might be very well be our first five stack! Ha.

I can't even begin to recall the amount of emails I've sent in suggesting this be done. It will be a great link if they can get it built. I suspect it becomes one of the most popular turnpikes in the state.

As you said SH-37 could be a good route to go. It would allow OkDOT to give up responsibilities for the current road to the municipalities and save them a little money in the future.

As for I-240, they haven't started manufacturing the signs yet? There's still time to stop it. Just leave the designation on a map like I-444.

BTW, here is a link to the website if anyone wants to look: http://www.accessoklahoma.com/

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 22, 2022, 02:46:03 PM

The problem with E-W connections in this area is that the only way to connect from the Norman area to I-44 is to loop south to the I-35 bridge near Riverwind or connect up through Moore. If there are issues with either one of those bridges, you have to go way out of the way to bypass them. And there's no clean connection between the two interstates (SH-9 has a breezewood-lite in the Riverwind area, Moore is Moore).

I suppose that's a good point, and at least the Indian Hills corridor is fairly underdeveloped so it's pretty easy to put a freeway there. I suppose maybe it's planning for the future as the area between Moore and Norman seems like it'll fill in with housing subdivisions within the next few decades as the metro expands. Better to put in a freeway while you don't have to negotiate with neighborhoods. The proposed 5 level stack at I-35 would also be cool to see in OKC, as growing up in North Texas made me accustomed to that style of interchange as opposed to the cloverleafs that are more common here.

I took a close look at the Access Oklahoma map. I wish I could zoom in tighter on some of the details. Obviously there are parts to the plan to really like and others to not like so much.

I'm very skeptical they can get all this stuff built within the next 15 years for $5 billion. Not unless they're getting a big amount of money up front from the recently passed Infrastructure Bill.

Best elements in the plan: The South Extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike from I-40 down to I-35 South of Noble and its combination with the East to West Connector, hopping from I-44 to I-35 to the Kickapoo Turnpike. It's too bad they've already moved to designate the existing portion of the Kickapoo Turnpike as a portion of I-240. It would have made more sense for the East to West Connector and the Kickapoo Turnpike to have a I-x44 designation. No future plan was shown on the map to include a North extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike from I-44 up to I-35 South of Guthrie. Weren't they planning on doing something like that? If that was the case then the Kickapoo Turnpike could be one great big I-x35 bypass of metro OKC.

Another big plus: widening I-44 from OKC up to the already completed I-44 widening projects near Tulsa. That stretch of I-44 needs to be at least 3x3 the entire way.

I think the East to West Connector in metro OKC would be an admission of the failure to build out the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension correctly. Now OK-9 by Riverwind Casino is basically turning into a Breezewood. There is still barely enough ROW available along existing OK-9 to build a freeway or turnpike closely flanked by frontage roads. The OK-9 interchange with I-35 covers a big footprint, big enough for a "Y" interchange with surface street connections.

The JKT to Tri-City Connector is a half-ass compromise, an attempt to make up for failing to build out the North half of the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur up to I-40 and the JKT 20 years ago. The JKT to Tri-City Connector will help a little in the immediate area around Will Rogers Airport. Still, the Mustang and Yukon areas need more efficient North-South movements. Mustang is seeing some of the fastest growth among the few areas of Oklahoma that are growing. OK-4 at least has ROW room for freeway/turnpike expansion going up into Bridge Creek, just short of the OK-37 intersection. In Bridge Creek if they keep developers from encroaching too tight along Mustang Road it might be possible to build from upgrades in the future. The rest of the gap is a difficult problem to solve.

It's kind of exciting to see Oklahoma might possibly get its first full-blown 4 or 5 level directional stack interchange at I-35 and the East-West Connector. There will have to be some serious finger crossing that it doesn't get downgraded into some partial cloverleaf thing.

It's interesting to see all the additional exits being proposed on I-44 between Lawton, OKC and Tulsa. The partial exit on I-44 near Fletcher will be turned into a complete interchange. That improvement has been long overdue. Elgin, Medicine Park and other areas North of Lawton have seen pretty decent growth over the past decade. The proposed new I-44 exit with US-277 South of Chickasha will make it easier to reach areas South of Chickasha and towns like Cement and Ninnekah.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 22, 2022, 08:32:50 PM
I'm very skeptical they can get all this stuff built within the next 15 years for $5 billion. Not unless they're getting a big amount of money up front from the recently passed Infrastructure Bill.

Luckily construction costs are lower in Oklahoma compared to most states. We'll see but I wouldn't be too surprised if this plan did over budget a bit.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 22, 2022, 08:32:50 PMNo future plan was shown on the map to include a North extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike from I-44 up to I-35 South of Guthrie. Weren't they planning on doing something like that? If that was the case then the Kickapoo Turnpike could be one great big I-x35 bypass of metro OKC.

So you would think they eventually will build a northern extension but they need to work with county and city leaders to prevent development that could get in the way and ultimately have to be torn down leading to increased costs for such a route.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 22, 2022, 08:32:50 PMI think the East to West Connector in metro OKC would be an admission of the failure to build out the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension correctly. Now OK-9 by Riverwind Casino is basically turning into a Breezewood. There is still barely enough ROW available along existing OK-9 to build a freeway or turnpike closely flanked by frontage roads. The OK-9 interchange with I-35 covers a big footprint, big enough for a "Y" interchange with surface street connections.

I think the east connector is very much even with an OK-9 freeway. Given ODOTs stupid plan to build a diverging diamond instead of a free flowing Y stack that tells me they have no long term plans to do anything with the road. Short sighted thinking.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 22, 2022, 08:32:50 PMThe JKT to Tri-City Connector is a half-ass compromise, an attempt to make up for failing to build out the North half of the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur up to I-40 and the JKT 20 years ago. The JKT to Tri-City Connector will help a little in the immediate area around Will Rogers Airport. Still, the Mustang and Yukon areas need more efficient North-South movements. Mustang is seeing some of the fastest growth among the few areas of Oklahoma that are growing. OK-4 at least has ROW room for freeway/turnpike expansion going up into Bridge Creek, just short of the OK-37 intersection. In Bridge Creek if they keep developers from encroaching too tight along Mustang Road it might be possible to build from upgrades in the future. The rest of the gap is a difficult problem to solve.

I like JKT to Tri-city connector. It could allow for a future terminal complex for WWA.

Regarding OK-4 they could still build it right through Mustang and connect at JKT with a few dozen property acquisitions. It wouldn't take that much. There's a huge vacant chunk of land at the JKT curve for a Y interchange. It can still be done. Planning needs to start. Letting this area get super dense and infeasible for freeway will be a horrible decision.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 22, 2022, 08:32:50 PMIt's kind of exciting to see Oklahoma might possibly get its first full-blown 4 or 5 level directional stack interchange at I-35 and the East-West Connector. There will have to be some serious finger crossing that it doesn't get downgraded into some partial cloverleaf thing.

I don't think it will unless they cancel the proposed service roads. I am very excited for that interchange hopefully it doesn't get downgraded.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 22, 2022, 08:32:50 PMIt's interesting to see all the additional exits being proposed on I-44 between Lawton, OKC and Tulsa. The partial exit on I-44 near Fletcher will be turned into a complete interchange. That improvement has been long overdue. Elgin, Medicine Park and other areas North of Lawton have seen pretty decent growth over the past decade. The proposed new I-44 exit with US-277 South of Chickasha will make it easier to reach areas South of Chickasha and towns like Cement and Ninnekah.

Yeah I was hoping for some new exits on I-44 southwest of OKC.

My only gripe about this plan is they would have been wise to add another 500 million for planning for future corridors and I didn't see any x type entrances and exits on JKT by Quail Springs. I also wish they'd add all missing movements at the SH-74/JKT junction.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 22, 2022, 06:21:36 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 22, 2022, 06:08:11 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 22, 2022, 02:46:03 PM
Boy, this makes the I-240 loop designation look stupid, doesn't it?

I'm not holding my breath but perhaps there's a slim chance OkDOT will rethink the I-240 thing.

Probably too late for that–it's already been approved by AASHTO.

As an aside, when I first saw this map, you were first person I thought of, given the inclusion of the east-west turnpike along the Indian Hills corridor. I know you've been advocating for that for years. (Wonder what designation it will get? It would make the most sense to route SH-37 onto it, since nobody actually uses that designation in Moore, but that's probably dependent on ODOT turning 4th Street over to Moore. 337 would do, I suppose, or an I-x35.)

Yeah I have to agree with you there as far as the proposed 240 extension, it was approved some time ago so what my thinking would be that the new East-West connector is probably going to be an extension of the Kilpatrick from SH-152 around Will Rogers, onto I-44 to just north of Newcastle and then turning East from there connecting to the Kickapoo south extension, I would probably label that as Interstate 440.

As for the Kickapoo extension, 2 things first off I would label that as either I-335 or I-340 and secondly if you look at the I-35 interchange north of Purcell they did something very similar to the I-40 interchange by building out a full bridge, which would be an indicator to me that perhaps 30 maybe 40 years down the road, the Kickapoo/Interstate x35 or x40 could get extended west to near Chickasha at the Bailey but that would be wayyyyyy down the road.

I was hoping the Kickapoo would be have it's junction with I-35 at Davis. Would have save about 20 miles of backtracking for those coming from DFW to Tulsa.

Quote from: Plutonic PandaSo you would think they eventually will build a northern extension but they need to work with county and city leaders to prevent development that could get in the way and ultimately have to be torn down leading to increased costs for such a route.

A North extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike would be incredibly valuable if they're able to build out this Southern extension as planned. ODOT & OTA are pretty notorious for not planning ahead and missing opportunities.

The very least thing they could do is build a Super-2 route along the intended path in order to preserve ROW. They sort of did that for a short stretch of OK-4 going North of the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur. When you look at the satellite imagery you can clearly see turnpike ROW going for a couple miles, even including an exit at Fox Lane. The ROW preservation zone runs out just as OK-4 enters Bridge Creek about a mile South of the OK-37 intersection. ODOT planned better with the Duncan Bypass. Unfortunately the Northern extension of that has been cancelled.

QuoteRegarding OK-4 they could still build it right through Mustang and connect at JKT with a few dozen property acquisitions. It wouldn't take that much. There's a huge vacant chunk of land at the JKT curve for a Y interchange. It can still be done. Planning needs to start. Letting this area get super dense and infeasible for freeway will be a horrible decision.

The prospect of bridging the gap between the Kilpatrick Turnpike and H.E. Bailey Spur by going thru Mustang is getting ever more difficult as time passes. 20 years ago it would have been very do-able just extending the JKT parallel to South Sara Road, straight down to the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur cloverleaf. The area around the OK-152 intersection and Sara Road is pretty built up now with more developing being added. I see only 2 ways to punch a turnpike connection through there. One: build an elevated highway that straddles Sara Road and commercial properties on its East side (Walmart, Lowes, OnCue, etc). That probably wouldn't be very popular. Two: shift to the East of that busy intersection and up behind the OK National Guard recruiting center. OTA would have to buy and clear a good number of residential properties.

Over the long run ODOT and/or OTA may be forced to do something like that anyway. The Yukon and Mustang areas are among the fastest growing areas in the OKC metro. ODOT/OTA may eventually be forced to address the Breezewood zone at Riverwind Casino too. OK-9 is nearly 8 miles South of the proposed East to West Connector. That's a farther distance than it is from the existing I-240.

Quote from: Plutonic PandaYeah I was hoping for some new exits on I-44 southwest of OKC.

It looks like they're adding two new exits between Chickasha and the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur. They're adding a partial exit just NE of the Chickasha service plaza. Then there's a full exit planned at the intersection of CR-1280 & CR 2920. That one will improve access to towns like Amber and Blanchard.

Quote from: FakeMikeMorganI was hoping the Kickapoo would be have it's junction with I-35 at Davis. Would have save about 20 miles of backtracking for those coming from DFW to Tulsa.

There's no legit reason to extend the Kickapoo Turnpike clear down to Davis. The proposed South terminus with I-35 is almost to Purcell as it is. The primary function of the Kickapoo Turnpike is a regional Eastern bypass for the Oklahoma City metro.

Quote from: FakeMikeMorgan on February 23, 2022, 09:53:26 AM
I was hoping the Kickapoo would be have it's junction with I-35 at Davis. Would have save about 20 miles of backtracking for those coming from DFW to Tulsa.

People going from Tulsa to Dallas take US-75/69, not I-35. Going through OKC adds 50 additional miles and about 30 minutes of travel time.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 22, 2022, 09:24:06 PM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 22, 2022, 08:32:50 PMI think the East to West Connector in metro OKC would be an admission of the failure to build out the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension correctly. Now OK-9 by Riverwind Casino is basically turning into a Breezewood. There is still barely enough ROW available along existing OK-9 to build a freeway or turnpike closely flanked by frontage roads. The OK-9 interchange with I-35 covers a big footprint, big enough for a "Y" interchange with surface street connections.

I think the east connector is very much even with an OK-9 freeway. Given ODOTs stupid plan to build a diverging diamond instead of a free flowing Y stack that tells me they have no long term plans to do anything with the road. Short sighted thinking.

I think it depends on the type of expressway is built for the East-West Connector. Is this a Wisconsin-style expressway with limited new access and interchanges at main crossings (WI 29 or US 151)? Is this an upgradeable expressway built with expansion in mind like Las Vegas/ Clark County did on their loop? I'm just curious. Either of these would work fine. I do hope it's not like San Antonio's Anderson Loop south of the city with way too many access points.

Quote from: skluth on February 23, 2022, 02:19:03 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 22, 2022, 09:24:06 PM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 22, 2022, 08:32:50 PMI think the East to West Connector in metro OKC would be an admission of the failure to build out the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension correctly. Now OK-9 by Riverwind Casino is basically turning into a Breezewood. There is still barely enough ROW available along existing OK-9 to build a freeway or turnpike closely flanked by frontage roads. The OK-9 interchange with I-35 covers a big footprint, big enough for a "Y" interchange with surface street connections.

I think the east connector is very much even with an OK-9 freeway. Given ODOTs stupid plan to build a diverging diamond instead of a free flowing Y stack that tells me they have no long term plans to do anything with the road. Short sighted thinking.

I think it depends on the type of expressway is built for the East-West Connector. Is this a Wisconsin-style expressway with limited new access and interchanges at main crossings (WI 29 or US 151)? Is this an upgradeable expressway built with expansion in mind like Las Vegas/ Clark County did on their loop? I'm just curious. Either of these would work fine. I do hope it's not like San Antonio's Anderson Loop south of the city with way too many access points.

I believe Bobby is referring to OK9 at I35 and not the new E/W Connector.

Quote from: FakeMikeMorgan on February 23, 2022, 09:53:26 AM
I was hoping the Kickapoo would be have it's junction with I-35 at Davis. Would have save about 20 miles of backtracking for those coming from DFW to Tulsa.

That's actually meant to be the Chickasaw Turnpike's job (the original plan was I-35-Ada-Henryetta). But Henry Bellmon killed everything but what was actually built.

My predictions for the numbering (not that I've ever gotten any of these right except maybe 301):

- East-west connector: 337
- JKT extension: 352
- Kickapoo extension: 377 for MAXIMUM CONFUSION. Or, more likely, 309, or an outside chance of 374.

---

Disappointment: that the Kickapoo/SH-9 interchange is a mere diamond, indicating they don't really expect upgrades to SH-9 at any point in the next 15 years.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 23, 2022, 03:45:42 PM

Quote from: FakeMikeMorgan on February 23, 2022, 09:53:26 AM
I was hoping the Kickapoo would be have it's junction with I-35 at Davis. Would have save about 20 miles of backtracking for those coming from DFW to Tulsa.

That's actually meant to be the Chickasaw Turnpike's job (the original plan was I-35-Ada-Henryetta). But Henry Bellmon killed everything but what was actually built.

Wow what a jokester. Why even build the portion they built then? They need to expand and extend that road ASAP and build it to the original plan.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2022, 07:00:25 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 23, 2022, 03:45:42 PM

Quote from: FakeMikeMorgan on February 23, 2022, 09:53:26 AM
I was hoping the Kickapoo would be have it's junction with I-35 at Davis. Would have save about 20 miles of backtracking for those coming from DFW to Tulsa.

That's actually meant to be the Chickasaw Turnpike's job (the original plan was I-35-Ada-Henryetta). But Henry Bellmon killed everything but what was actually built.

Wow what a jokester. Why even build the portion they built then? They need to expand and extend that road ASAP and build it to the original plan.

It was part of a compromise in the Legislature. The Chickasaw was part of the same turnpike package as the Creek, John Kilpatrick, and Cherokee turnpikes. Rural legislators held it hostage and threatened to kill the whole package until the Chickasaw Turnpike was added. They additionally added a rider stating that work on the Creek and Kilpatrick couldn't start until the Chickasaw was finished.

Bellmon (and indeed OTA itself) was opposed to the Chickasaw Turnpike concept because he believed it wouldn't bring in enough money to justify the expense of building it, but the Legislature demanded that something had to be built, so they built...that.

Quote from: Dewey Bartlett, Jr., OTA board member
I think it stinks. We never wanted to build it. It was not anything we thought was appropriate. But in order to build the three turnpikes that were necessary, that is the only way they would build it.

Quote from: State Rep. Danny Hilliard (D-Sulphur)
It's been nothing but an albatross ever since they built the thing.

I've driven on the Chickasaw Turnpike only a couple of times in the nearly 30 years I've lived in Oklahoma. I remember seeing very little traffic on it. It's amazing such a porky pork-barrel project was ever built and built in such a half-ass manner. That 2-lane turnpike doesn't directly connect to any other limited access highways. The South entrance on OK-7 is 8.5 miles East of I-35. And its North terminus at OK-1 is about 10 miles South of Ada. Basically it's only a turnpike stub rather than a fully functional turnpike. It just wasn't finished.

The same kind of wasteful thinking behind the Chickasaw Turnpike was at the heart of some other proposed turnpike projects in the 1990's that were (thankfully) never built, such the Duncan to Davis turnpike and the Clinton to Snyder turnpike.

The kind of policy follow-thru that allowed the Chickasaw Turnpike to be only partially built was also reflected in the started but never finished H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur. They started on the effort and then quit.

It will be interesting to see what kind of follow-thru OTA can maintain with these Access Oklahoma projects. 15 years from now will we have more unfinished turnpike spurs and stubs or will we see things taken fully from concept to completion?

Now that OTA has made it public where it intends to build they had better start working quick to buy and preserve ROW ASAP. I can easily imagine all the land along the proposed path of the East-to-West Connector getting snapped up by real estate speculators just to make the turnpike much more expensive to build.

As I was getting at in my last post, nobody actually involved in building the roads wanted the Chickasaw to be built at all. There was never any intent or desire to follow through on it. What was built was "this technically satisfies the legal requirements we have to fulfill to build the things we actually want to build". Because the rural legislators insisted on it, not building it was never an option, as cancelling the Chickasaw entirely would have cancelled the Creek, Kilpatrick, and Cherokee as well.

What's sad is that while the rural legislators may have lobbied for the Chickasaw Turnpike to be built the path of it really did little to help anybody. If the legislators thought the turnpike would be "a gift for the farmers" they might have forgotten that most farmers and rural types of people in general have a pretty intense hatred for toll roads.

It will be interesting to see what kind of game plan OTA has for the build-out of the Access Oklahoma projects. That is if there is a full-blown game plan. The Access Oklahoma web site has a FAQ video on how the property acquisition process works. But they don't have any time lines on when they'll actually move to buy and secure ROW. I wonder if any work has been done on the environmental and legal process for any of these projects. The completion dates are pretty much all "TBD."

One thing is certain: if OTA piddles around for the rest of this decade letting all this stuff only exist on paper a bunch of it will end up being impossible to build. The clock is really ticking fast on that East to West Connector. The semi-rural gap between Norman and Moore where they're charting that route is going to fill in and fill in fast. Job #1 should be laying down a Texas-style divided street with a huge median along most of the length of that turnpike route. If they don't do that within the next couple or so years they won't be able to build the project at all.

I talked with the OTA. They said the plan is to get the urban projects done first within 10 years and the east to west connector will be high priority.

Also heard from a couple different people there US-412 will be I-42.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2022, 10:23:15 PM
I talked with the OTA. They said the plan is to get the urban projects done first within 10 years and the east to west connector will be high priority.

Also heard from a couple different people there US-412 will be I-42.

Has AASHTO or FHWA approved such a designation? Since the legislation never included a number, it would go through that process.

It would seem foolish to approve I-42 when other similar numbers such as I-46 or I-48 are available, given the existence of I-42 in North Carolina.

Quote from: sprjus4 on February 23, 2022, 11:35:17 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2022, 10:23:15 PM
I talked with the OTA. They said the plan is to get the urban projects done first within 10 years and the east to west connector will be high priority.

Also heard from a couple different people there US-412 will be I-42.

Has AASHTO or FHWA approved such a designation? Since the legislation never included a number, it would go through that process.

It would seem foolish to approve I-42 when other similar numbers such as I-46 or I-48 are available, given the existence of I-42 in North Carolina.

Not sure that just what I was told. If I-42 does exist in NC then I doubt it gets designated in Oklahoma. Are there any examples of that happening elsewhere?

There are several examples: 76, 84, 86, 87. All of those were simply because there was no suitable in-grid number that wasn't a duplicate, however.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 24, 2022, 12:39:09 AM
There are several examples: 76, 84, 86, 87. All of those were simply because there was no suitable in-grid number that wasn't a duplicate, however.

And in this case, there are other in-grid numbers.

There's no reason to sign I-42 across US-412.

I-42 was the designation approved by AASHTO back in 2016 for the future interstate corridor between Raleigh and Morehead City, NC. Further, the AASHTO recently approved at its last meeting two segments (freeways that meet interstate standards and connect to another interstate highway) of I-42 to be officially signed which will likely happen this year.

I-42 has similar digits to US 412 and is at a similar latitude as NC's I-42. I don't see why not.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2022, 10:23:15 PM
I talked with the OTA. They said the plan is to get the urban projects done first within 10 years and the east to west connector will be high priority.

Also heard from a couple different people there US-412 will be I-42.

Did you ask them about the Kickapoo to Purcell and JKT to I-44? From what I'm gathering in the post those 2 would probably be ranked just as high as the east-west connector especially considering they're tying that into the southern Kickapoo extension

Quote from: DavesTravels on February 24, 2022, 03:05:45 AM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2022, 10:23:15 PM
I talked with the OTA. They said the plan is to get the urban projects done first within 10 years and the east to west connector will be high priority.

Also heard from a couple different people there US-412 will be I-42.

Did you ask them about the Kickapoo to Purcell and JKT to I-44? From what I'm gathering in the post those 2 would probably be ranked just as high as the east-west connector especially considering they're tying that into the southern Kickapoo extension

Yes. They said the first projects will likely be the urban ones and they will focus on the JKT/Hefner Parkway and widenings. The East-West connector and Kickapoo southern extension are high priority. They said that of all the proposed projects the only one that is subject to significant changes is the JKT to tri-city connector.

Interestingly enough the gentleman that I spoke with said there is an outline of dozens of project corridors where future tollways could be built under plans from when the first turnpikes were built. I'd like to see those.

Back in the day, there was an FTP site that OTA ran that had a lot of the early plans for the turnpikes that did get built. Most people would have found it kind of hard to get to since it was a bit more complicated to use than typical HTTP. I don't remember seeing any unbuilt plans on there, but I wouldn't have been surprised if they were there too.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 24, 2022, 05:32:40 AM
Back in the day, there was an FTP site that OTA ran that had a lot of the early plans for the turnpikes that did get built. Most people would have found it kind of hard to get to since it was a bit more complicated to use than typical HTTP. I don't remember seeing any unbuilt plans on there, but I wouldn't have been surprised if they were there too.

The way it was phrased or at least how interpreted it was that there weren't specific plans just general areas or corridors where a future turnpike could be built. He brought that up when I asked about an a northern or western extension(from the future southern extension).

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 23, 2022, 07:07:04 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2022, 07:00:25 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 23, 2022, 03:45:42 PM

Quote from: FakeMikeMorgan on February 23, 2022, 09:53:26 AM
I was hoping the Kickapoo would be have it's junction with I-35 at Davis. Would have save about 20 miles of backtracking for those coming from DFW to Tulsa.

That's actually meant to be the Chickasaw Turnpike's job (the original plan was I-35-Ada-Henryetta). But Henry Bellmon killed everything but what was actually built.

Wow what a jokester. Why even build the portion they built then? They need to expand and extend that road ASAP and build it to the original plan.

It was part of a compromise in the Legislature. The Chickasaw was part of the same turnpike package as the Creek, John Kilpatrick, and Cherokee turnpikes. Rural legislators held it hostage and threatened to kill the whole package until the Chickasaw Turnpike was added. They additionally added a rider stating that work on the Creek and Kilpatrick couldn't start until the Chickasaw was finished.

Bellmon (and indeed OTA itself) was opposed to the Chickasaw Turnpike concept because he believed it wouldn't bring in enough money to justify the expense of building it, but the Legislature demanded that something had to be built, so they built...that.

Quote from: Dewey Bartlett, Jr., OTA board member
I think it stinks. We never wanted to build it. It was not anything we thought was appropriate. But in order to build the three turnpikes that were necessary, that is the only way they would build it.

Quote from: State Rep. Danny Hilliard (D-Sulphur)
It's been nothing but an albatross ever since they built the thing.

Scott, thanks for the quotes. I was working the the Legislature when all this went down and you got it EXACTLY right. the Ada bunch settled for this piece thinking they could get the rest later. They were incorrect.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 24, 2022, 06:04:31 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 24, 2022, 05:32:40 AM
Back in the day, there was an FTP site that OTA ran that had a lot of the early plans for the turnpikes that did get built. Most people would have found it kind of hard to get to since it was a bit more complicated to use than typical HTTP. I don't remember seeing any unbuilt plans on there, but I wouldn't have been surprised if they were there too.

The way it was phrased or at least how interpreted it was that there weren't specific plans just general areas or corridors where a future turnpike could be built. He brought that up when I asked about an a northern or western extension(from the future southern extension).

All turnpikes have to be authorized with specific sections of legislation.

Quote
§69-1705.  Authority - Powers and duties.
The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority is hereby authorized and empowered:
(a)  To adopt bylaws for the regulation of its affairs and conduct of its business.
(b)  To adopt an official seal and alter the same at pleasure.
(c)  To maintain an office at such place or places within the state as it may designate.
(d)  To sue and be sued in contract, reverse condemnation, equity, mandamus and similar actions in its own name, plead and be impleaded; provided, that any and all actions at law or in equity against the Authority shall be brought in the county in which the principal office of the Authority shall be located, or in the county of the residence of the plaintiff, or the county where the cause of action arose.  All privileges granted to the Authority and duties enjoined upon the Authority by the provisions of Sections 1701 through 1734 of this title may be enforced in a court of competent jurisdiction in an action in mandamus.
(e)  To construct, maintain, repair and operate turnpike projects and highways, with their access and connecting roads, at such locations and on such routes as it shall determine to be feasible and economically sound; provided, that until specifically authorized by the Legislature, the Authority shall be authorized to construct and operate toll turnpikes only at the following locations:
(1)  The Turner Turnpike between Oklahoma City and Tulsa.
(2)  The Southwestern (H.E. Bailey) Turnpike between Oklahoma City and Wichita Falls, Texas.
(3)  The Northeastern (Will Rogers) Turnpike between Tulsa and Joplin, Missouri.
(4)  The Eastern (Indian Nation) Turnpike between Tulsa and Paris, Texas, including all or any part thereof between McAlester and the Red River south of Hugo.
(5)  The Cimarron Turnpike between Tulsa and Interstate Highway 35 north of Perry, including a connection to Stillwater.
(6)  The Muskogee Turnpike between Broken Arrow and Interstate Highway 40 west of Webbers Falls.
(7)  All or any part of an extension of the Muskogee Turnpike, beginning at a point on Interstate Highway 40 near the present south terminus of the Muskogee Turnpike, and extending in a southeasterly direction on an alignment near Stigler, Poteau and Heavener to the vicinity of the Arkansas State Line to furnish access to Hot Springs, Texarkana, Shreveport and New Orleans.
(8)  A tollgate on the Turner Turnpike in the vicinity of Luther, Oklahoma, and in the vicinity of the intersection of State Highway 33 and Turner Turnpike in Creek County, Oklahoma, or in the vicinity of the intersection of State Highway 33 and Turner Turnpike or U.S. Highway 66 in Creek County, Oklahoma, from any monies available to the Authority.
(9)  Add on the Will Rogers Turnpike a northbound automatic tollgate onto State Highway 28 and a southbound on-ramp from State Highway 28.
(10)  A turnpike or any part or parts thereof beginning in the vicinity of Duncan extending east to the vicinity of the City of Davis, and extending in a northeasterly direction, by way of the vicinity of the City of Ada, to a connection in the vicinity of Henryetta or in the vicinity of the intersection of State Highway 48 and Interstate 40; and a turnpike or any part or parts thereof from the vicinity of Snyder extending north to the vicinity of Woodward.
(11)  A turnpike or any part or parts thereof beginning at a point in the vicinity of Ponca City, or at a point on the Kansas-Oklahoma state boundary line east of the Arkansas River and west of the point where Oklahoma State Highway No. 18 intersects said state boundary line, and extending in a southeasterly direction to a connection with the Tulsa Urban Expressway System in the general area of the Port of Catoosa.
(12)  All or any part of an Oklahoma City toll expressway system connecting the residential, industrial and State Capitol Complex in the north part of Oklahoma City with the residential, industrial and Will Rogers World Airport Complex in the south and southwest parts of Oklahoma City.
(13)  A turnpike (The Industrial Parkway) or any part or parts thereof beginning at a point on the Oklahoma-Kansas state boundary line between the point where U.S. Highway 66 intersects the boundary line and the northeast corner of Oklahoma and ending by means of a connection or connections with Shreveport, Louisiana, and Houston, Texas, in southeastern Oklahoma and at no point to exceed thirty (30) miles west of the Missouri or Arkansas border.
(14)  A turnpike or any part or parts thereof beginning in the vicinity of Velma or County Line to a point intersecting with Interstate 35 in the area south of Davis.
(15)  A turnpike or any part or parts thereof beginning in the vicinity of Watonga and extending south and/or east to the vicinity of north and/or west Oklahoma City.
(16)  A tollgate on the Will Rogers Turnpike near the intersection of State Highway 137 and the Will Rogers Turnpike, located south of Quapaw.
(17)  A tollgate on the Muskogee Turnpike in the vicinity of Porter, Oklahoma, a tollgate on the Will Rogers Turnpike in the vicinity of Adair, Oklahoma, a tollgate on the Turner Turnpike in the vicinity of Luther, Oklahoma, and a tollgate on the H.E. Bailey Turnpike at Elgin, Oklahoma, from any monies available to the Authority.
(18)  A tollgate on the Turner Turnpike in the vicinity of Wellston, Oklahoma, from any monies available to the Authority.
(19)  A tollgate on the Muskogee Turnpike in the vicinity of Brushy Mountain, Oklahoma, and in the vicinity of Elm Grove, Oklahoma, from any monies available to the Authority.
(20)  All or any part of an Oklahoma City Outer Loop expressway system beginning in the vicinity of I-35 and the Turner Turnpike and extending west into Canadian County and then south to I-40; and then south and east to I-35 in the vicinity of Moore and Norman; and then extending east and north to I-40 east of Tinker Field; and then extending north to the Turner Turnpike to complete the Outer Loop.
(21)  All or any part of the Tulsa south bypass expressway system beginning in the vicinity of the Turner Turnpike near Sapulpa and extending south and east to U.S. 75 in the vicinity of 96th Street to 121st Street; and then east across the Arkansas River to a connection with the Mingo Valley Expressway; and then south and/or east to a point on the Tulsa-Wagoner County Line near 131st street south in the city of Broken Arrow.
(22)  A new turnpike or any part thereof from near the west gate of the Will Rogers Turnpike south to the west end of south Tulsa Turnpike at the Tulsa-Wagoner County Line.
(23)  A new turnpike or any parts thereof from the vicinity of the connection between State Highway 33 and U.S. 69 easterly to the Arkansas State Line.
(24)  A four-lane extension of the Muskogee Turnpike from Interstate Highway 40 west of Webbers Falls to the Poteau vicinity.
(25)  A new turnpike or any part or parts thereof beginning at a point in the vicinity of northwest Tulsa, and extending in a northwesterly direction, by means of a connection or connections with the cities of Pawhuska and Newkirk, to a point intersecting in the vicinity of US Highway No. 77 and the Kansas State Line.
(26)  A full access interchange on the Indian Nation Turnpike south of Interstate 40, in the vicinity of Henryetta, Oklahoma, and in the vicinity of the proposed theme park, museum or an industrial facility which qualifies for the Oklahoma Quality Jobs Program Act, from any monies available to the Authority.
(27)  A new turnpike beginning at a point directly west of the Arkansas line and four-laning Highway 70 from that point to the farthest western reach of Highway 70 creating a southern route through Oklahoma.
(28)  A new turnpike and bridge or any parts thereof from a point in the vicinity of the city of Mustang southerly across the South Canadian River to the H.E. Bailey Turnpike in the vicinity of the city of Tuttle; and then easterly across the South Canadian River to a point in the vicinity of the city of Norman.
(29)  A new turnpike or any parts thereof beginning at a point in the vicinity of the city of Altus and extending in a northwesterly direction to a point in the vicinity of the city of Sayre.
(30)  A new turnpike or any parts thereof beginning at a point in the vicinity of the city of Enid and extending in a westerly direction to a point in the vicinity of the city of Woodward.
(31)  An on- and off-ramp or any parts thereof at Fletcher, Oklahoma, in the vicinity of the Interstate 44 and State Highway 277 intersection.  Any existing on- or off-ramp or any parts thereof in the vicinity of Fletcher, Oklahoma, shall not be removed and shall be maintained pursuant to Section 1701 et seq. of this title.
(32)  A new bridge crossing the Arkansas River between South Delaware Avenue and Memorial Drive in Tulsa County.  This project shall commence upon a determination by the Oklahoma Transportation Authority that such bridge shall be self-sufficient at some point over a thirty-year time period from the toll charges associated with the bridge project.
(33)  An exit ramp or any parts thereof from the eastbound lane of the Turner Turnpike at 96th Street in Tulsa.
(34)  An on- and off-ramp or any parts thereof on the Cimarron Turnpike in the vicinity of the northside of the Glencoe, Oklahoma, municipal limits.
(35)  A new turnpike or any parts thereof beginning at Interstate 44 at or near its intersection with 49th West Avenue, past State Highway 64/412, turning northeasterly, crossing 41st West Avenue, and continuing eastward to the L.L. Tisdale Expressway in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 23, 2022, 07:57:06 PM
I've driven on the Chickasaw Turnpike only a couple of times in the nearly 30 years I've lived in Oklahoma. I remember seeing very little traffic on it. It's amazing such a porky pork-barrel project was ever built and built in such a half-ass manner. That 2-lane turnpike doesn't directly connect to any other limited access highways. The South entrance on OK-7 is 8.5 miles East of I-35. And its North terminus at OK-1 is about 10 miles South of Ada. Basically it's only a turnpike stub rather than a fully functional turnpike. It just wasn't finished.

Quote
§69-1911.  Transfer of Chickasaw Turnpike to Department of Transportation.
The Department of Transportation may accept the transfer of all or part of the roadway and any appurtenances thereto known as the Chickasaw Turnpike.
Added by Laws 2003, c. 206, § 3, emerg. eff. May 12, 2003; Amended by Laws 2006, c. 118, § 1, emerg. eff. May 4, 2006.

Did ODOT accept the road?

Quote from: rte66manDid ODOT accept the road?

Last time I checked the Chickasaw Turnpike was still a turnpike. It still had a toll gate.

Quote from: DavesTravelsDid you ask them about the Kickapoo to Purcell and JKT to I-44? From what I'm gathering in the post those 2 would probably be ranked just as high as the east-west connector especially considering they're tying that into the southern Kickapoo extension

The Southern extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike is less in danger of having its ROW gobbled in the near future than the East-to-West Turnpike. The proposed path of the Kickapoo South Extension runs through pretty much only rural areas. The only area that is a potential near-term problem is the segment where the turnpike runs close to Lake Thunderbird. It's possible a real estate speculator could buy a bunch of property there and hold OTA hostage for a big payday. Such a ploy could backfire against the speculator via court battles over eminent domain. And then there is the added possibility a Southern Kickapoo Turnpike extension could greatly enhance development and property values after the turnpike is completed. Not before. The speculator would shoot himself in the foot making it more difficult and costly to build the turnpike, dragging out the process. He would be waiting longer to see any profit from the ploy.

The situation in the zone between Moore and Norman (around West Indian Hills Road) is different. Those vacant blocks of land are going to get covered up with development whether a new highway gets built through there or not. Real estate squatters have nothing to lose at buying up parcels of land in the East-to-West Turnpike ROW path. They can try to strong-arm OTA for a lot of extra money. If that doesn't work another developer will pay a premium for the land.

There is also the risk other anti-roads, New Urbanist business people could buy up land in an attempt to block the East to West Turnpike from being built. If they succeed they can sell off the property to other developers wanting to build more McMansions and strip shopping plazas.

Quote from: rte66man on February 24, 2022, 02:25:02 PM
Scott, thanks for the quotes. I was working the the Legislature when all this went down and you got it EXACTLY right. the Ada bunch settled for this piece thinking they could get the rest later. They were incorrect.

Thanks, although I really have to share credit with the Tulsa World reporting on the subject that I studied as I was writing the Wikipedia article for the Chickasaw (which is one of three articles I've written that have been awarded featured status and appeared on the Main Page). The articles that I read didn't identify who the "rural legislators" were by name, but I'm guessing from what I've learned since then that Lonnie Abbott was the ringleader.

Quote from: rte66man on February 24, 2022, 02:34:42 PM

Quote
§69-1911.  Transfer of Chickasaw Turnpike to Department of Transportation.
The Department of Transportation may accept the transfer of all or part of the roadway and any appurtenances thereto known as the Chickasaw Turnpike.
Added by Laws 2003, c. 206, § 3, emerg. eff. May 12, 2003; Amended by Laws 2006, c. 118, § 1, emerg. eff. May 4, 2006.

Did ODOT accept the road?

ODOT accepted the part of the turnpike west of US-177; that portion is now SH-7 Spur. As a condition of accepting the road, ODOT made OTA do a full-depth reconstruction of the mainline and complete the interchange at US-177 (it was previously a partial interchange with westbound exit and eastbound entrance, exactly the opposite needed to be to be useful as a Sulphur bypass).

As mentioned earlier, the 240 overlay onto Kickapoo seems rather short-sighted given these plans.  Kickapoo should easily be given an x35 or an x44 designation based on the Purcell extension.  I'd recommend I-835 and merge it back into the mainline I-35 north of Guthrie.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 24, 2022, 03:23:06 AM

Quote from: DavesTravels on February 24, 2022, 03:05:45 AM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2022, 10:23:15 PM
I talked with the OTA. They said the plan is to get the urban projects done first within 10 years and the east to west connector will be high priority.

Also heard from a couple different people there US-412 will be I-42.

Did you ask them about the Kickapoo to Purcell and JKT to I-44? From what I'm gathering in the post those 2 would probably be ranked just as high as the east-west connector especially considering they're tying that into the southern Kickapoo extension

Yes. They said the first projects will likely be the urban ones and they will focus on the JKT/Hefner Parkway and widenings. The East-West connector and Kickapoo southern extension are high priority. They said that of all the proposed projects the only one that is subject to significant changes is the JKT to tri-city connector.

Interestingly enough the gentleman that I spoke with said there is an outline of dozens of project corridors where future tollways could be built under plans from when the first turnpikes were built. I'd like to see those.

Given the layout of the proposed layout of the JKT I wouln't be surprised to see that get rerouted, not sure how much though.

When I saw how they tied in the Kickapoo to I-35 it sounds like they're building a full bridge over I-35 which indicates that they plan to eventually tied the Kickapoo to the Bailey/44 either near Chickasha or near Lawton

Speaking of future tollways are they referring to what they planned on doing the first time (e.g. extending the Muskogee to Poteau from I-40), if it's not that then the only thing I can think of would be the extension of the Cimmaron west of I-35 (running along 412/future Interstate) to Northwest Oklahoma which could be part of the overall plans to tie in the new Interstate from I-35, west and eventually northwest towards Limon and I-70 (and eventually to Denver).

Not that I'm expecting them to say anything about future tollway plans but I'd be curious to know what their plans are beyond the projects already announced.

Quote from: DavesTravels on February 26, 2022, 06:47:01 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 24, 2022, 03:23:06 AM

Quote from: DavesTravels on February 24, 2022, 03:05:45 AM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2022, 10:23:15 PM
I talked with the OTA. They said the plan is to get the urban projects done first within 10 years and the east to west connector will be high priority.

Also heard from a couple different people there US-412 will be I-42.

Did you ask them about the Kickapoo to Purcell and JKT to I-44? From what I'm gathering in the post those 2 would probably be ranked just as high as the east-west connector especially considering they're tying that into the southern Kickapoo extension

Yes. They said the first projects will likely be the urban ones and they will focus on the JKT/Hefner Parkway and widenings. The East-West connector and Kickapoo southern extension are high priority. They said that of all the proposed projects the only one that is subject to significant changes is the JKT to tri-city connector.

Interestingly enough the gentleman that I spoke with said there is an outline of dozens of project corridors where future tollways could be built under plans from when the first turnpikes were built. I'd like to see those.

Given the layout of the proposed layout of the JKT I wouln't be surprised to see that get rerouted, not sure how much though.

When I saw how they tied in the Kickapoo to I-35 it sounds like they're building a full bridge over I-35 which indicates that they plan to eventually tied the Kickapoo to the Bailey/44 either near Chickasha or near Lawton

Speaking of future tollways are they referring to what they planned on doing the first time (e.g. extending the Muskogee to Poteau from I-40), if it's not that then the only thing I can think of would be the extension of the Cimmaron west of I-35 (running along 412/future Interstate) to Northwest Oklahoma which could be part of the overall plans to tie in the new Interstate from I-35, west and eventually northwest towards Limon and I-70 (and eventually to Denver).

Not that I'm expecting them to say anything about future tollway plans but I'd be curious to know what their plans are beyond the projects already announced.

The Cimmaron will probably be extended east the last few miles to the Arkansas state line to match whatever kind of bypass Arkansas builds around Siloam Springs, whenever Arkansas is ready to build that segment of the new Interstate.

Quote from: swake on February 26, 2022, 08:52:15 PM

Quote from: DavesTravels on February 26, 2022, 06:47:01 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 24, 2022, 03:23:06 AM

Quote from: DavesTravels on February 24, 2022, 03:05:45 AM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2022, 10:23:15 PM
I talked with the OTA. They said the plan is to get the urban projects done first within 10 years and the east to west connector will be high priority.

Also heard from a couple different people there US-412 will be I-42.

Did you ask them about the Kickapoo to Purcell and JKT to I-44? From what I'm gathering in the post those 2 would probably be ranked just as high as the east-west connector especially considering they're tying that into the southern Kickapoo extension

Yes. They said the first projects will likely be the urban ones and they will focus on the JKT/Hefner Parkway and widenings. The East-West connector and Kickapoo southern extension are high priority. They said that of all the proposed projects the only one that is subject to significant changes is the JKT to tri-city connector.

Interestingly enough the gentleman that I spoke with said there is an outline of dozens of project corridors where future tollways could be built under plans from when the first turnpikes were built. I'd like to see those.

Given the layout of the proposed layout of the JKT I wouln't be surprised to see that get rerouted, not sure how much though.

When I saw how they tied in the Kickapoo to I-35 it sounds like they're building a full bridge over I-35 which indicates that they plan to eventually tied the Kickapoo to the Bailey/44 either near Chickasha or near Lawton

Speaking of future tollways are they referring to what they planned on doing the first time (e.g. extending the Muskogee to Poteau from I-40), if it's not that then the only thing I can think of would be the extension of the Cimmaron west of I-35 (running along 412/future Interstate) to Northwest Oklahoma which could be part of the overall plans to tie in the new Interstate from I-35, west and eventually northwest towards Limon and I-70 (and eventually to Denver).

Not that I'm expecting them to say anything about future tollway plans but I'd be curious to know what their plans are beyond the projects already announced.

The Cimmaron will probably be extended east the last few miles to the Arkansas state line to match whatever kind of bypass Arkansas builds around Siloam Springs, whenever Arkansas is ready to build that segment of the new Interstate.

Hopefully not. This road should be free. Even better if they make the tolled segments free but I don't see that happening. Tulsa needs some toll free routes. I-45 and I-50 ;)

Quote from: DavesTravelsGiven the layout of the proposed layout of the JKT I wouln't be surprised to see that get rerouted, not sure how much though.

Are you talking about the JKT to Tri-City Connector? If so, I think that route around the West and South sides of Will Rogers Airport is about as good as it can be. That new turnpike segment could be really great as a reliever route for that very busy zone on I-44 between the West end of I-240 and interchange with Airport Road. Of course Yukon and Mustang are going to need other super highway improvements in addition to that connector.

Quote from: DavesTravelsWhen I saw how they tied in the Kickapoo to I-35 it sounds like they're building a full bridge over I-35 which indicates that they plan to eventually tied the Kickapoo to the Bailey/44 either near Chickasha or near Lawton.

I don't see a Chickasha to Slaughterville turnpike ever happening. It would be a waste of money to build roughly 30 miles of new terrain turnpike just 8 miles South of the existing H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur. It would actually be considerably less expensive to extend the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur the last 6 miles to I-35. And the road going by Riverwind Casino would get a whole lot more use.

Quote from: DavesTravelsSpeaking of future tollways are they referring to what they planned on doing the first time (e.g. extending the Muskogee to Poteau from I-40), if it's not that then the only thing I can think of would be the extension of the Cimmaron west of I-35 (running along 412/future Interstate) to Northwest Oklahoma which could be part of the overall plans to tie in the new Interstate from I-35, west and eventually northwest towards Limon and I-70 (and eventually to Denver).

The Chickasaw Turnpike is a whole other deal than an extension of the Muskogee Turnpike to Poteau. There has been a lot of conceptual turnpikes drawn up over the previous decades. Some were good ideas and others have been ridiculous.

The US-412 upgrade to an Interstate has some limited growth potential. I think it would be good if US-412 could be turned into a freeway from I-35 to Enid. A limited access freeway or turnpike between Enid and Woodward is more iffy. And one going all the way out to Boise City is more iffy than that. Concepts have been tossed around in the past though.

I strongly believe a Denver to OKC diagonal Interstate would be incredibly valuable to the nation's highway network in the big picture view. Actually I think it should be Denver to Texarkana going thru OKC. West of the Mississippi River there are very few diagonal Interstates running Northwest to Southeast. Diagonal routes in the Western US mostly run Southwest to Northeast. Metros in the Northwest like Salt Lake City and Boise are growing. Same goes for the Front Range Cities in Colorado. There is no diagonal super highway access for that Northwest region going direct to the Deep South. You literally have to drive East of St Louis for such routes, like I-24.

Limon is an important jumping point. A diagonal Interstate going to OKC could begin there, overlapping US-287 down to Kit Carson. It would be akin to the nature of I-44 running diagonally from St Louis to OKC. Kit Carson could be another junction point with a North extension of I-27. The OTA has had plans on the books from a turnpike from OKC to Woodward (and Boise City). But it has little chance of ever getting built as an in-state only route. Likewise CDOT isn't going to much with US-287 and I-27 without some serious federal involvement. Over the long term it's possible OK-3 could be improved quite a bit between OKC and Woodward. But the Woodward to Kit Carson leg would require all new terrain in 3 states. It would take federal involvement to coordinate a big picture plan.

If a major Denver-OKC diagonal Interstate was ever built then it would make a US-412 freeway or turnpike between Woodward and I-35 much more viable.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 26, 2022, 09:21:36 PM
I don't see a Chickasha to Slaughterville turnpike ever happening. It would be a waste of money to build roughly 30 miles of new terrain turnpike just 8 miles South of the existing H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur. It would actually be considerably less expensive to extend the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur the last 6 miles to I-35. And the road going by Riverwind Casino would get a whole lot more use.

Depends how much Oklahoma City grows/sprawls.  If Oklahoma City starts growing like Dallas another east-west facility might be useful.

Eh...McClain County's my stomping grounds. People around Washington (which is more or less due west of the proposed southern terminus of the Kickapoo) simply do not use SH-9 for a trip to Chickasha; the preferred routing is SH-24 to SH-39. I'm not really sure where you'd take a turnpike west from the current southern terminus, though. Once you get past Washington, you start getting into some pretty thinly-settled territory; there's really only Dibble to the southwest. There's a whole lot of nothing between there and Chickasha.

McClain County and the Goldsby/Washington area is growing, slowly but surely, but most of the growth is concentrated along the SH-9 and I-35 corridors right now. There are some new homes going in closer to Washington, but for the most part they're one-offs from someone splitting an acreage off of a quarter-section or something like that, no big subdivisions like north Goldsby is starting to get. The area between Dibble and Chickasha might sprawl up in...oh, say, fifty years, maybe. The only thing that would move that up is if Oklahoma City becomes the national capital and also the global headquarters of a merger between Amazon, Walmart, and Boeing, someone strikes gold in Dibble, and Kevin Stitt is succeeded by the ghost of Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

My wife lived in between Dibble and Chickasha when we first met in 2011. At the time the cell signal was so weak you had to go stand next to a window to get any reception. One time we had to call the Grady County sheriff because someone's horse got loose and ended up on her roof somehow.

Quote from: Revive755Depends how much Oklahoma City grows/sprawls.  If Oklahoma City starts growing like Dallas another east-west facility might be useful.

Yeah, but first things first. That idiotic Breezewood in front of Riverwind Casino needs to be fixed. If the OKC metro is going to sprawl Southward OK-9 needs to be FIXED f***king correctly. It's a crime that thing was allowed be built in such a stupidly incomplete manner. That corridor is going be affected well before a Chickasha-Purcell turnpike would become necessary.

Quote from: Scott5114Eh...McClain County's my stomping grounds. People around Washington (which is more or less due west of the proposed southern terminus of the Kickapoo) simply do not use SH-9 for a trip to Chickasha; the preferred routing is SH-24 to SH-39. I'm not really sure where you'd take a turnpike west from the current southern terminus, though. Once you get past Washington, you start getting into some pretty thinly-settled territory; there's really only Dibble to the southwest. There's a whole lot of nothing between there and Chickasha.

The main Eastbound route out of Chickasha is US-62 and then the split with OK-39 going over to Purcell. I'm guessing the traffic counts on those routes are not high at all, given all the highways in that general area are 2 lane routes. US-62 going North out of Blanchard is the only 4-lane route in that area besides I-44 and I-35.

Turnpikes are meant to move higher volumes of traffic from a greater variety of destinations. People driving up from Lawton or Wichita Falls to points in OKC or beyond OKC are not going to take a Chickasha to Slaughterville turnpike. They'll keep driving closer into OKC. With me being in Lawton, the East-to-West Connector from Tri-Cities thru the gap between Moore and Norman would be really valuable for road trips up to Tulsa. But I'm not going to go far out of my way to drive Chickasha to Slaughterville to get to the Kickapoo Turnpike. That's literally a bridge too far for me. I can always stay on I-44 for the most direct route and save some money on tolls. So why would I drive way far out of my way to blow even more money on tolls and fuel?

On the other hand, lots of people from Lawton drive to Norman for various reasons. So there is legit value in properly completing the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur all the way to I-35.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 27, 2022, 01:50:01 AM
People driving up from Lawton or Wichita Falls to points in OKC or beyond OKC are not going to take a Chickasha to Slaughterville turnpike. They'll keep driving closer into OKC...But I'm not going to go far out of my way to drive Chickasha to Slaughterville to get to the Kickapoo Turnpike. That's literally a bridge too far for me. I can always stay on I-44 for the most direct route and save some money on tolls. So why would I drive way far out of my way to blow even more money on tolls and fuel?

It seems to measure out around 75-80 miles for the Turnpike route vs. around 68-70 miles for the existing I-44.

Considering the speed limit on the Turnpike route would be 80 mph throughout, only around 10 miles longer over a distance of 80 miles, and would avoid the Oklahoma City metro entirely... there's certainly merit for such a route, for long distance traffic with no intention with interacting with an urban area at all... especially during peak hours.

Quote from: swake on February 26, 2022, 08:52:15 PM

Quote from: DavesTravels on February 26, 2022, 06:47:01 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 24, 2022, 03:23:06 AM

Quote from: DavesTravels on February 24, 2022, 03:05:45 AM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2022, 10:23:15 PM
I talked with the OTA. They said the plan is to get the urban projects done first within 10 years and the east to west connector will be high priority.

Also heard from a couple different people there US-412 will be I-42.

Did you ask them about the Kickapoo to Purcell and JKT to I-44? From what I'm gathering in the post those 2 would probably be ranked just as high as the east-west connector especially considering they're tying that into the southern Kickapoo extension

Yes. They said the first projects will likely be the urban ones and they will focus on the JKT/Hefner Parkway and widenings. The East-West connector and Kickapoo southern extension are high priority. They said that of all the proposed projects the only one that is subject to significant changes is the JKT to tri-city connector.

Interestingly enough the gentleman that I spoke with said there is an outline of dozens of project corridors where future tollways could be built under plans from when the first turnpikes were built. I'd like to see those.

Given the layout of the proposed layout of the JKT I wouln't be surprised to see that get rerouted, not sure how much though.

When I saw how they tied in the Kickapoo to I-35 it sounds like they're building a full bridge over I-35 which indicates that they plan to eventually tied the Kickapoo to the Bailey/44 either near Chickasha or near Lawton

Speaking of future tollways are they referring to what they planned on doing the first time (e.g. extending the Muskogee to Poteau from I-40), if it's not that then the only thing I can think of would be the extension of the Cimmaron west of I-35 (running along 412/future Interstate) to Northwest Oklahoma which could be part of the overall plans to tie in the new Interstate from I-35, west and eventually northwest towards Limon and I-70 (and eventually to Denver).

Not that I'm expecting them to say anything about future tollway plans but I'd be curious to know what their plans are beyond the projects already announced.

The Cimmaron Cherokee will probably be extended east the last few miles to the Arkansas state line to match whatever kind of bypass Arkansas builds around Siloam Springs, whenever Arkansas is ready to build that segment of the new Interstate.

FTFY

Quote from: sprjus4It seems to measure out around 75-80 miles for the Turnpike route vs. around 68-70 miles for the existing I-44.

Usually when I drive to Tulsa I just stay on I-44 the whole way. Using the combination of East-to-West Connector and the Kickapoo Turnpike would add about 3 miles to the trip. A Chickasha to Purcell route to the entire length of the Kickapoo Turnpike would add about 12 miles versus staying on I-44. The route might possibly be 80mph the whole way. But there's all the added tolls as well. Oklahoma's tolls are a bargain compared to toll roads in other states. Still the route would add a few dollars more in tolls over the 28 mile break of "free" I-44 going thru the OKC metro.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 27, 2022, 12:19:43 PM

Quote from: sprjus4It seems to measure out around 75-80 miles for the Turnpike route vs. around 68-70 miles for the existing I-44.

Usually when I drive to Tulsa I just stay on I-44 the whole way. Using the combination of East-to-West Connector and the Kickapoo Turnpike would add about 3 miles to the trip. A Chickasha to Purcell route to the entire length of the Kickapoo Turnpike would add about 12 miles versus staying on I-44. The route might possibly be 80mph the whole way. But there's all the added tolls as well. Oklahoma's tolls are a bargain compared to toll roads in other states. Still the route would add a few dollars more in tolls over the 28 mile break of "free" I-44 going thru the OKC metro.

It just depends on preference to travel through the metro area or not, and traffic congestion. If there's backups or accidents, etc. I'm easily taking the toll road.

But to say no one will use it is a stretch. I'd disagree.

The more I look at the proposed map, the more concern I have about an increase in traffic along an already antiquated and narrow I-44 from SW OKC to the Tri-City area, between the JKT/152 connector & East-West Turnpike. I don't think ODOT has any plans to widen that section of I-44 anytime soon.

Quote from: okroads on February 27, 2022, 01:40:12 PM
The more I look at the proposed map, the more concern I have about an increase in traffic along an already antiquated and narrow I-44 from SW OKC to the Tri-City area, between the JKT/152 connector & East-West Turnpike. I don't think ODOT has any plans to widen that section of I-44 anytime soon.

Yeah, both of these turnpikes are going to result in a lot of new traffic being dumped on that road. Upgrades are surely going to be needed.

On the bright side, a 3x3 upgrade of I-44 from the I-240 split down to the North end of the H.E. Bailey Turnpike would be relatively easy. There is plenty of space within the existing ROW to add a third lane in each direction. On top of that the existing I-44 bridge over the Canadian River is already wide enough for a 3x3 road; it's just striped for 2x2. Also it seems likely the new interchanges on I-44 for the East-to-West Connector and the JKT Connector would include some main line upgrades for I-44 in the immediate area of those interchanges.

The problem is that ODOT will probably fart around and take 20 years to upgrade the portion of road in between. Getting on that section of highway is already sort of dicey with how much traffic is on it already and how little merge space there is.

Quote from: rte66man on February 27, 2022, 09:59:55 AM

Quote from: swake on February 26, 2022, 08:52:15 PM

Quote from: DavesTravels on February 26, 2022, 06:47:01 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 24, 2022, 03:23:06 AM

Quote from: DavesTravels on February 24, 2022, 03:05:45 AM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2022, 10:23:15 PM
I talked with the OTA. They said the plan is to get the urban projects done first within 10 years and the east to west connector will be high priority.

Also heard from a couple different people there US-412 will be I-42.

Did you ask them about the Kickapoo to Purcell and JKT to I-44? From what I'm gathering in the post those 2 would probably be ranked just as high as the east-west connector especially considering they're tying that into the southern Kickapoo extension

Yes. They said the first projects will likely be the urban ones and they will focus on the JKT/Hefner Parkway and widenings. The East-West connector and Kickapoo southern extension are high priority. They said that of all the proposed projects the only one that is subject to significant changes is the JKT to tri-city connector.

Interestingly enough the gentleman that I spoke with said there is an outline of dozens of project corridors where future tollways could be built under plans from when the first turnpikes were built. I'd like to see those.

Given the layout of the proposed layout of the JKT I wouln't be surprised to see that get rerouted, not sure how much though.

When I saw how they tied in the Kickapoo to I-35 it sounds like they're building a full bridge over I-35 which indicates that they plan to eventually tied the Kickapoo to the Bailey/44 either near Chickasha or near Lawton

Speaking of future tollways are they referring to what they planned on doing the first time (e.g. extending the Muskogee to Poteau from I-40), if it's not that then the only thing I can think of would be the extension of the Cimmaron west of I-35 (running along 412/future Interstate) to Northwest Oklahoma which could be part of the overall plans to tie in the new Interstate from I-35, west and eventually northwest towards Limon and I-70 (and eventually to Denver).

Not that I'm expecting them to say anything about future tollway plans but I'd be curious to know what their plans are beyond the projects already announced.

The Cimmaron Cherokee will probably be extended east the last few miles to the Arkansas state line to match whatever kind of bypass Arkansas builds around Siloam Springs, whenever Arkansas is ready to build that segment of the new Interstate.

FTFY

Ah yes, my bad.

Quote from: Scott5114The problem is that ODOT will probably fart around and take 20 years to upgrade the portion of road in between. Getting on that section of highway is already sort of dicey with how much traffic is on it already and how little merge space there is.

Yeah, I'm not a fan at all of the I-44 split with I-240 on OKC's SW side. A motorist going from I-44 to I-240 or vice versa doesn't have a problem due to the way the thru lanes are designed. Drivers using I-44 SW of OKC have it worse off.

Motorists coming up Northbound on I-44 into the interchange with I-240 face a bit of a blind spot going over the I-240 main lanes. The blind spot was much worse before the interchange was modified around 20 years ago. Still, if you're not paying attention you can crest over that hill and suddenly be facing a traffic jam at a dead stop and rear-end cars ahead of you. That WB I-240 to WB I-44 cloverleaf is one really tight loop. ODOT really needs to replace that with a flyover ramp.

The Southbound lanes of I-44 at the I-240 split are pretty screwy. There are two lanes there now which exit to I-44 instead of one lane previously. But the right outboard lane quickly drops off as an exit lane for SW 74th Street. That creates a bunch of weaving conflicts with motorists who stayed to the right but now suddenly have to go left one lane to stay on I-44. Really that split with I-44 and I-240 needs to be 3 lanes wide for both roads. Either that or ODOT needs to work in a braided ramp scheme for SW 74th Street.

It's possible ODOT and OTA both will fart around for years on these projects. I would love to see a 5 level stack at I-35 and the interchange with the East-to-West Connector. But I would not be at all surprised if OTA downgraded that into a stupid cloverleaf. In fact, I kind of expect it. Or if the interchange is a mix of flyovers and cloverleafs like the I-35/I-240 or I-44/I-235 interchanges they'll fart around taking over a decade to build the damned thing. They keep reminding us all the time we don't live in Texas, and not in a good way either.

Quote from: okroads on February 27, 2022, 01:40:12 PM
The more I look at the proposed map, the more concern I have about an increase in traffic along an already antiquated and narrow I-44 from SW OKC to the Tri-City area, between the JKT/152 connector & East-West Turnpike. I don't think ODOT has any plans to widen that section of I-44 anytime soon.

Already on the radar.
https://www.odot.org/cwp-8-year-plan/cwp_ffy2022-ffy2029/8_year_cwp_district3N_map.pdf

Bad news is no actual construction is scheduled for another 5 years.

Quote from: rte66man on February 28, 2022, 11:10:58 AM

Quote from: okroads on February 27, 2022, 01:40:12 PM
The more I look at the proposed map, the more concern I have about an increase in traffic along an already antiquated and narrow I-44 from SW OKC to the Tri-City area, between the JKT/152 connector & East-West Turnpike. I don't think ODOT has any plans to widen that section of I-44 anytime soon.

Already on the radar.
https://www.odot.org/cwp-8-year-plan/cwp_ffy2022-ffy2029/8_year_cwp_district3N_map.pdf

Bad news is no actual construction is scheduled for another 5 years.

That's better than what I thought. Thanks, rte66man. Could be interesting to see which gets completed first, the turnpike(s) in question or this widening project.

The dollar amounts of those I-44 projects for FFY 2023-27 don't really look like enough to pay for a 3x3 widening from near I-240 down to the Canadian River Bridge. The total looks like about $20 million. That's barely enough to pay for one SPUI project on an Interstate. Meanwhile they have $47 million in projects planned for OK-9 East of Norman and $38.6 million in projects planned for a stretch of US-77 South of Norman. One I-40 project East of OKC would cost $86 million.

The dollar amounts listed are for utility relocation and right-of-way acquisition, both scheduled for 2027. Presumably any actual construction would be scheduled for 2028 or later.

Hopefully the East-to-West Connector will at least be in early stages of construction by 2028. If the OTA doesn't get on the ball very soon with the surface street frontage roads just to secure the ROW they are going to be so screwed if they wait 5 years or more to get started.

City councils and county commissions all march to the beat of their own drums, often completely oblivious or ignorant to the plans of other agencies like ODOT and OTA. They'll ink deals with commercial developers and not think twice about it. They're only concerned about the here and now for what a piece of land can hold, not 5-15 years in the future.

West Indian Hills Road has some juicy pieces of property alongside it that are currently vacant. I can easily imagine a bunch of restaurants popping up in the vacant land South of Hey Day Entertainment and the Andy Alligator Fun Park. That would greatly complicate any efforts of building a 5-level stack interchange with I-35 there. The Andy Alligator place closed to due the pandemic. But that property is in a highly valuable location.

Just got off the phone with Colin O' Leary with the OTA and he answered a few questions for me about the East-West connector and I figured I'd share the most interesting ones here.

At the moment, there is no plan for any of these roads to become freeways in the future (expected given it's the turnpike authority) but he couldn't rule out a potential future Interstate designation on the E/W if additional funding was needed. It seemed like it was super unlikely but it's still not impossible I suppose. In addition, he said they hadn't made a decision on the 5-level stack at 35 and the E/W but as a part of trying to dampen their environmental footprint, they're wanting to shift to extending "up and not out"  when building new freeway interchanges like this, so they're going to push for that to be a flyover interchange. I couldn't get any concrete times for when any project would be completed but it sounded like environmental studies and ROW projects will be starting in the upcoming months.

IIRC, freeways don't refer to whether or not one pays a direct user fee to drive on the road rather it's referring to the fact the facility has full controlled access. No lights or at grade crossings. So this would be a freeway.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 03, 2022, 10:28:11 AM
IIRC, freeways don't refer to whether or not one pays a direct user fee to drive on the road rather it's referring to the fact the facility has full controlled access. No lights or at grade crossings. So this would be a freeway.

I should have clarified my wording probably. He said that all of the proposed projects will be and should be turnpikes with fees and limited access, and there's no future plans to make any of the roads without tolls, so there's likely not a plan to slap a 3di on the road unless there's some significant budget constraints and they need to rely on federal funding.

Quote from: Cerlin on March 03, 2022, 10:47:23 AM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 03, 2022, 10:28:11 AM
IIRC, freeways don't refer to whether or not one pays a direct user fee to drive on the road rather it's referring to the fact the facility has full controlled access. No lights or at grade crossings. So this would be a freeway.

I should have clarified my wording probably. He said that all of the proposed projects will be and should be turnpikes with fees and limited access, and there's no future plans to make any of the roads without tolls, so there's likely not a plan to slap a 3di on the road unless there's some significant budget constraints and they need to rely on federal funding.

Yeah I thought that Biden wanted to allow for new interstate designations on tollways but perhaps that hasn't happened.

Interesting about the stack proposal. It seems necessary if they want service roads to go through the interchange much like how Texas builds theirs. Honestly, and I hope it's done at once, but I wouldn't mind seeing a Volleyball interchange here over a scaled down version with half flyovers half cloverleafs. At least some point in the future new connections can be made.

Yeah I'm interested to see if more states including Oklahoma follow in the steps of Texas's highway interchanges. For one thing, I find them much easier to drive since the merge points are a lot smoother unlike the typical cloverleafs. I also just really appreciate the grandeur of them–every time I'm driving in DFW, I love to drive 35E from SH121 to 635 just to see the stacks. It'd be super cool to have that in Oklahoma and if it means less space is occupied to handle the traffic, I'm all for it.

And so it begins.......
https://kfor.com/news/local/we-arent-going-quietly-proposed-turnpike-plans-leave-one-family-wondering-what-price-theyll-be-expected-to-pay-for-progress/

Quote
"We aren't going quietly,"  Proposed turnpike plans leave one family wondering what price they'll be expected to pay for progress

OKLAHOMA CITY (KFOR) – Concern is growing for Oklahomans who are worried that their properties, businesses, and homes could be torn down to make way for new turnpike expansion projects around the state.

Currently at issue is the proposed expansion of the Kickapoo Turnpike.

"I've been on [our] property since 1957. My dad was born on this property in 1932. His grandfather owned it prior to that,"  said longtime Nobel resident, Donna McCrory.

Donna McCrory's family has owned, lived on, and farmed more than 140 acres since 1919, but with all the work they've put in, they're now concerned that it will be torn down and cleared away for this particular expansion, a project they've been told could help cut the drive from Tulsa to Dallas by 50 minutes.

"And so for fifty minutes they're going to wipe out the flora and fauna. And the people and the community, the tiny towns,"  she said. "I've seen my family put blood, sweat and tears, literally, to maintain and keep the property and make it our home."

ODOT says it's too early yet to determine exactly what properties may be needed.

"We haven't gotten to that point,"  said Jessica Brown, Director of Strategic Communications for the Oklahoma Department of Transportation, referring to the new ACCESS Oklahoma highway infrastructure plan that could take 15 years total, to complete. "It will be at least at a minimum, weeks, two months before we get to that process."

"We're trying to buy the property we need and only the property we need to make those alignments to expand the interstate and turnpikes,"  she added. "Once we have a refinement of those alignments, then we'll notify property owners via mail that their property is included in our expansion efforts and our transportation expansion."

Brown also noted that pinpointing an exact timeline could be difficult due to the scope and wide range of the projects.

But the family fears that progress will come at their expense.

"It's a functioning farm,"  said McCrory of the family's land, which they currently leasing to another farmer in the area. "And if all of these people are displaced then I think it's going to hurt our schools, it's going to hurt, you know, our small businesses and the, the people that make up this community. And I know just every day I hear of another family that's that lived here forever."

"People like myself that are supposed to be in their golden years living on their property that they've been on thirty, forty years. And now they're being told, well, you're going to be uprooted,"  she added.

When the project does reach that phase of land acquisition, the family would expect to receive at minimum, market value for more than one hundred and forty acres. But it's not factor they're ready to consider.

"It's civil for now with them,"  added Donna's niece, Megan. "But I made it very clear we aren't going quietly."

Yeah and these stupid news outlets eating up loving the controversy so they can write stories. Democracy!

Quote
Donna McCrory's family has owned, lived on, and farmed more than 140 acres since 1919, but with all the work they've put in, they're now concerned that it will be torn down and cleared away for this particular expansion, a project they've been told could help cut the drive from Tulsa to Dallas by 50 minutes.

"And so for fifty minutes they're going to wipe out the flora and fauna. And the people and the community, the tiny towns,"  she said. "I've seen my family put blood, sweat and tears, literally, to maintain and keep the property and make it our home."

"It's a functioning farm,"  said McCrory of the family's land, which they currently leasing to another farmer in the area.

Collecting those rent checks sure is a lot of work. Why, sometimes I even get a paper cut on the way to the bank!

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 03, 2022, 01:28:37 PM

Quote
Donna McCrory's family has owned, lived on, and farmed more than 140 acres since 1919, but with all the work they've put in, they're now concerned that it will be torn down and cleared away for this particular expansion, a project they've been told could help cut the drive from Tulsa to Dallas by 50 minutes.

"And so for fifty minutes they're going to wipe out the flora and fauna. And the people and the community, the tiny towns,"  she said. "I've seen my family put blood, sweat and tears, literally, to maintain and keep the property and make it our home."

"It's a functioning farm,"  said McCrory of the family's land, which they currently leasing to another farmer in the area.

Collecting those rent checks sure is a lot of work. Why, sometimes I even get a paper cut on the way to the bank!

Dude that totally sucks! If you ever need me to take one for the team I'll be around! LOL

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 03, 2022, 01:47:52 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 03, 2022, 01:28:37 PM

Quote
Donna McCrory's family has owned, lived on, and farmed more than 140 acres since 1919, but with all the work they've put in, they're now concerned that it will be torn down and cleared away for this particular expansion, a project they've been told could help cut the drive from Tulsa to Dallas by 50 minutes.

"And so for fifty minutes they're going to wipe out the flora and fauna. And the people and the community, the tiny towns,"  she said. "I've seen my family put blood, sweat and tears, literally, to maintain and keep the property and make it our home."

"It's a functioning farm,"  said McCrory of the family's land, which they currently leasing to another farmer in the area.

Collecting those rent checks sure is a lot of work. Why, sometimes I even get a paper cut on the way to the bank!

Dude that totally sucks! If you ever need me to take one for the team I'll be around! LOL

Those family farms also wiped out much of the indigenous flora and fauna back when the land was first settled. Today the only flora and fauna is corn, wheat, soybeans, rodents, birds, and any deer they haven't shot. And maybe that tiny cannabis patch their son hid behind the rows of corn.

I'm not too familiar with how these ROW projects work but...if someone owns 140 acres of land, surely they don't have to sell ALL of it right? Route the turnpike along where a fence would be and maybe they lose 4-5 acres but it's not like the OTA is going to specifically route the Kickapoo towards every 100 year old home they can find.

Quote from: Cerlin on March 03, 2022, 06:29:42 PM
I'm not too familiar with how these ROW projects work but...if someone owns 140 acres of land, surely they don't have to sell ALL of it right? Route the turnpike along where a fence would be and maybe they lose 4-5 acres but it's not like the OTA is going to specifically route the Kickapoo towards every 100 year old home they can find.

The Power Broker covers the effects highway building had on farms on Long Island.  At least with those small-but-not-so-small farms, the dissection of the properties was harmful.

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 03, 2022, 01:28:37 PM

Quote
Donna McCrory's family has owned, lived on, and farmed more than 140 acres since 1919, but with all the work they've put in, they're now concerned that it will be torn down and cleared away for this particular expansion, a project they've been told could help cut the drive from Tulsa to Dallas by 50 minutes.

"And so for fifty minutes they're going to wipe out the flora and fauna. And the people and the community, the tiny towns,"  she said. "I've seen my family put blood, sweat and tears, literally, to maintain and keep the property and make it our home."

"It's a functioning farm,"  said McCrory of the family's land, which they currently leasing to another farmer in the area.

Collecting those rent checks sure is a lot of work. Why, sometimes I even get a paper cut on the way to the bank!

It is more likely they are leasing out the tillable acreage and living on the homestead. Gotta hand it to the media for doing a half-assed job in reporting.

Also there are no "tiny towns" along the path of the turnpike. There's a lot of rural land in OKC and Norman city limits, and unincorporated land in Cleveland County. But that's it.

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 04, 2022, 04:54:41 AM
Also there are no "tiny towns" along the path of the turnpike. There's a lot of rural land in OKC and Norman city limits, and unincorporated land in Cleveland County. But that's it.

Why are the cities in central Oklahoma so comically large in area?

Oklahoma City chases tax revenue by annexing everything that doesn't move and some things that do. The other cities, seeking to avoid being boxed in by Oklahoma City, in turn annex areas to keep Oklahoma City from having them.

Norman also extends much farther east than population density would suggest it should out of a desire to have Lake Thunderbird, the city's primary water source, in city limits.

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 04, 2022, 05:41:27 PM
Oklahoma City chases tax revenue by annexing everything that doesn't move and some things that do. The other cities, seeking to avoid being boxed in by Oklahoma City, in turn annex areas to keep Oklahoma City from having them.

Norman also extends much farther east than population density would suggest it should out of a desire to have Lake Thunderbird, the city's primary water source, in city limits.

That's very odd in comparison to Tulsa area cities that won't annex an area unless they can extend sewer connections, and therefore the billing for water/sewer. Completely different perspectives in the same state.

Indeed it is. There are a lot of people in rural Oklahoma City that get the worst of both worlds: city taxes but no city services.

I'm working on a construction project in Blanchard city limits, and it's sort of like that. We have no access to city water and sewer where we're working, but we're still expected to follow Blanchard building codes, file Blanchard building permits, our septic system has to be up to city code,  etc.

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 04, 2022, 04:54:41 AM
Also there are no "tiny towns" along the path of the turnpike. There's a lot of rural land in OKC and Norman city limits, and unincorporated land in Cleveland County. But that's it.

It actually looks like it will come uncomfortably close to both Franklin and Stella if you consider them to be towns.

Quote from: BroadwayExt on March 05, 2022, 03:02:27 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 04, 2022, 04:54:41 AM
Also there are no "tiny towns" along the path of the turnpike. There's a lot of rural land in OKC and Norman city limits, and unincorporated land in Cleveland County. But that's it.

It actually looks like it will come uncomfortably close to both Franklin and Stella if you consider them to be towns.

I don't. Franklin is part of Norman and Stella is part of Oklahoma City.

Franklin at least has a sort of built-up area I would consider a neighborhood. It looks like it might have been the beginnings of a town at one point, and then it got annexed by Norman.

Stella doesn't even have that. The label "Stella" on the map seems to correspond to a Conoco and a Dollar General built across the street from each other at SE 149th and Peebly. That's not a town.

In both cases, the turnpike avoids the intersection that these place names are attached to. If anything, the turnpike will help these areas grow by making them more easily accessible and findable. To get to them now requires navigating the warren of section-line roads (some go through, some don't) characterizing eastern Cleveland County. And if the residents don't want to live in a not-actually-town with growth potential...well, they're nothing special as-is, you can find rural areas just like them in at least 70 of Oklahoma's other counties.

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 04, 2022, 11:38:32 PM
Indeed it is. There are a lot of people in rural Oklahoma City that get the worst of both worlds: city taxes but no city services.

I'm working on a construction project in Blanchard city limits, and it's sort of like that. We have no access to city water and sewer where we're working, but we're still expected to follow Blanchard building codes, file Blanchard building permits, our septic system has to be up to city code,  etc.

While in the Tulsa area Owasso has just 37k people within the city limits but has 57k people inside the city fence line.

https://www.cityofowasso.com/DocumentCenter/View/416/Fenceline-Map?bidId=

What exactly is the "fence line" shown on this map?

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 05, 2022, 06:11:13 PM
What exactly is the "fence line" shown on this map?

Tulsa area cities instead of annexing every piece of possible land like the cities around OKC annex a thin "fence" of land surrounding regions where they may in the future wish to annex, keeping other cities from doing so. There are a lot of older, formerly rural subdivisions in Tulsa's suburbs that have septic systems and often use rural water.

If residents in these subdivisions wish to be annexed into the city, they have to connect to the city water and sewer system. There's a subdivision in Jenks near me like this, it's completely surrounded by newer annexed subdivisions and they have tried to get the city to annex them but can't get enough of the residents to agree to pay to connect to the city sewer system and without that the city refuses.

Owasso and Broken Arrow in particular have a LOT of unannexed subdivisions in their fence lines.

Ah, gotcha. I've seen some instances of that in other parts of the state on GIS data and the like, but I wasn't quite sure that it wasn't a glitch in the dataset.

I'm not sure how I feel about the practice. On the one hand, it prevents runaway annexation like you see in the OKC area. On the other hand, residents in a border area could well want to be annexed by City A, but be prohibited from pursuing that path by City B fencing them off.

The actual solution to preventing annexation is to have it New England-style, where almost all the cities and towns are somewhere between 5 mi × 5 mi and 10 mi × 10 mi, borders look more like counties than congressional districts, and even the unincorporated areas in northern New Hampshire, Vermont, and Maine exist in the same way that the towns do but are simply unincorporated (and almost empty).

Quote from: 1 on March 05, 2022, 09:08:34 PM
The actual solution to preventing annexation is to have it New England-style, where almost all the cities and towns are somewhere between 5 mi × 5 mi and 10 mi × 10 mi, borders look more like counties than congressional districts, and even the unincorporated areas in northern New Hampshire, Vermont, and Maine exist in the same way that the towns do but are simply unincorporated (and almost empty).

That wouldn't work in Oklahoma owing to the much lower population density here.

Not as low as the population density when they set up those civil towns in New England. ;)

Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 07, 2022, 02:57:06 PM
Not as low as the population density when they set up those civil towns in New England. ;)

Which ones are uncivil?

Yet more opposition to the Norman turnpikes.

https://www.news9.com/story/6226d8eb326fc40735b28863/norman-lawmakers-push-back-against-plans-for-turnpike-expansion-

Quote
NORMAN, Oklahoma - Multiple state lawmakers from Norman either questioned or outright opposed a recently publicized plan by the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority to build new highways through the city in Cleveland County. 
The OTA's plan, dubbed ACCESS Oklahoma, would build two highways through Norman. 

Norman Rep. Merleyn Bell on Monday attempted to stop the construction of the highways with a single legislative move. 

Bell, a Democrat, proposed an amendment to HB4088, a bill regarding the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority and unrelated to ACCESS Oklahoma, that would have stripped the OTA of its authority to expand into Norman. 

"This closed-door decision-making process is unacceptable,"  Bell said. The amendment failed to pass. 

"This was a deliberate attempt to stop it,"  said Rep. Jacob Rosecrants, a fellow Democrat from Norman. 

Norman Sen. Mary Boren said she is welcoming a group of people to the capitol on March 23 to protest the OTA plan, which is expected to disrupt hundreds of private properties.

Boren said the public outcry from the plan has been intense. "I wouldn't say that I am organizing a rally, but I can say that I am welcoming a rally,"  she said. 

Boren and Rosecrants said they are concerned with the impact on potentially hundreds of private property owners, who would have to sell their property if it runs through their land.

"This plan should not be implemented,"  Boren said. "It is flawed, it has a lot of controversial and unsubstantiated data and assumptions supporting it."  

Senator and Majority Whip Rob Standridge said he plans to use "my position and my seniority"  to "slow down the conversation"  on construction to review threats to private property owners and environmental factors.

"Is there not a better choice? Did we really look at its impact on citizens, communities? Did we displace an inordinate number of people when we could have chosen a different route that did not?"  Standridge said on a phone call.

A spokesperson for the OTA said the exact placement of the turnpikes, which are slated to run through northern and eastern Norman.

"We have yet to begin the design phase to determine impact. What is shown on the website is broad and not definitive. We aim to further reduce impact as the process unfolds,"  the OTA said.

Tiffany Martinez Vrska, the chief communications officer for the city of Norman said Mayor Breea Clark "has discussed with the city attorney drafting a letter to the OTA that would request delay of moving forward with the turnpike project until environmental studies can be done."  

This is to be expected. Another article read as if the Republican legislature brushed this proposed bill off. These legislators opposing it are just playing the part for their pissed off constituents. Hopefully this doesn't impact these projects too much.

The new turnpikes going between Moore and Norman and bypassing around the East side of Norman might actually do a lot more to spur development growth and boost property values. Most of the growth in the OKC metro area has been in the Northern reaches around Edmond and out to the West in Yukon and Mustang. Moore is growing, but it is right along the I-35 corridor. Meanwhile the areas around Midwest City and Del City haven't been growing as fast. The Kickapoo Turnpike improves access to those areas. The Southern extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike will dramatically improve access to the Lake Thunderbird area. That area East of Norman could end up booming.

I think I can understand the outrage for some. There was absolutely no community input or talks about where infrastructure was most needed, OTA just said "here's our 15 year plan, we're going to be building a turnpike here, tough luck" . I think a lot of these projects are necessary for the long term growth of the metro area and it's better to get these projects done before population growth makes it impossible. But, there has to be community feedback and environmental studies are really important. Lake Thunderbird is an important watershed and that turnpike does come close to it, so all construction and routing should lessen or ideally eliminate impacts on the lake as to not cause any unnecessary damage for the purpose of better travel times. I know the OTA will conduct those studies but I understand community hesitancy because they hadn't been consulted on the idea of a turnpike moving through there to begin with.

This may be controversial but that's more or less the way it should be done. If the public is outraged enough then take the anger with you to the elections. This country has become too obsessed with having public hearing after public hearing and this locally preferred alternative crap it adds too much time to getting much needed infrastructure projects built.

They did hold a public meeting and presumably will hold a couple more.

Bell is my representative. Guess I'm going to have to call her up and tell her to knock it the fuck off.

https://www.normantranscript.com/news/mayor-takes-on-turnpike-authority-pledges-to-fight-reprehensible-rollout-of-new-toll-roads/article_66a906d6-9f53-11ec-95bf-7f5f0163db45.html

And now the mayor of Norman fights against the expansion of the new turnpikes near Norman.

Already saw this. The mayor is an idiot. I can't wait until this thing is built.

Interesting that this turnpike might be the hill that Mayor Breea Clark wants to die on. She is up for re-election in less than a month–she just got a plurality in the first round and there's a run-off the first week of April, where she's running against a very conservative pro-police candidate Larry Heikkila (who was a principal of the Unite Norman movement, on the off-chance that anyone here has knowledge of Norman municipal politics).

Clark seems to think that the voters in rural east and north Norman will be opposed enough to this that by coming out against it she might be able to split those voters off from Heikkila, who would be the natural choice for conservative rural voters. Clark is generally a pretty shrewd politician and has managed to survive a recall attempt despite being one of the most left-wing politicians in deep-red Oklahoma. That being said, I don't think the runoff in April will necessarily be a referendum on the turnpike. Heikkila is pretty far right for Norman voters' tastes, and Unite Norman doesn't have the best track record of actually managing to accomplish much electorally as a result.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 08, 2022, 03:25:13 PM
This may be controversial but that's more or less the way it should be done. If the public is outraged enough then take the anger with you to the elections. This country has become too obsessed with having public hearing after public hearing and this locally preferred alternative crap it adds too much time to getting much needed infrastructure projects built.

They did hold a public meeting and presumably will hold a couple more.

Yeah but infrastructure is something that is supposed to help the community as much as it does help those passing through the community. If the community has no say in where things go, then what point is there of having any democracy at all? Allowing a highway authority to have complete control using eminent domain is exactly what cut up cities like Cincinnati and Dallas and severed lower income neighborhoods away from sustainability. I don't think many people are opposing the idea of a turnpike, not even Brea Clark who has been on record saying in 20 years this could very well be an extremely successful and important infrastructure project, but they're opposing the idea that the community's input is invalid and that they should have no say. A turnpike will get built but I'd rather it take an extra year to make sure we don't bulldoze through neighborhoods or damage a farming ecosystem with input from the community on areas they'd prefer not to get demolished, instead of letting the OTA have free reign and eventually lead us down a path like the IHS did in urban areas in the 60s and 70s.

Quote from: Scott5114Clark seems to think that the voters in rural east and north Norman will be opposed enough to this that by coming out against it she might be able to split those voters off from Heikkila, who would be the natural choice for conservative rural voters. Clark is generally a pretty shrewd politician and has managed to survive a recall attempt despite being one of the most left-wing politicians in deep-red Oklahoma. That being said, I don't think the runoff in April will necessarily be a referendum on the turnpike.

The East to West Connector could be enormously beneficial to Norman if it is built as designed in the Access Oklahoma map. The Connector in combination with the extended Kickapoo Turnpike would give Norman residents a high speed link to Tulsa without having to go through downtown OKC along the way. The new turnpike bridge over the Canadian River would provide a fast, direct path to Newcastle, not to mention faster access to Will Rogers Airport and Mustang. A five level directional stack interchange (if built) could become a local landmark.

The Access Oklahoma plan would fill some important gaps in super highway service needed in the OKC metro area. It doesn't do everything (I still strongly believe the Kilpatrick Turnpike and H.E. Bailey Turnpikes need to be linked directly somehow through Mustang).

My own politics are pretty moderate (I have conservative leaning stances on some issues, more liberal stances on others). I understand the importance of walk-ability in a city or town. But I think Mayor Clark is just trying to block a new highway only out of political grand-standing. The ploy doesn't seem to be based on anything practical.

The OKC metro is very spread-out and very car-centric. These regional toll roads will improve connectivity and may ease the traffic burden some in the middle of OKC. The new turnpikes may encourage a lot of new residential and business growth in the Southern and Eastern reaches of OKC. That will improve the tax base, which in turn will help provide funding for things like bike paths, sidewalks, parks, etc in Norman, Moore and Newcastle.

Quote from: CerlinA turnpike will get built but I'd rather it take an extra year to make sure we don't bulldoze through neighborhoods or damage a farming ecosystem with input from the community on areas they'd prefer not to get demolished, instead of letting the OTA have free reign and eventually lead us down a path like the IHS did in urban areas in the 60s and 70s.

If the OTA and others fart around for years having more public hearings, fighting lawsuits, etc the sparsely developed areas where the turnpikes would be built will be covered up with new development by then. The roads won't get built at all by that point. It will be just like the very stupid crap that happened over in Mustang at the SW end of the Kilpatrick Turnpike.

The areas the Kickapoo extension are going to pass through are far enough out that they have time to kill. The Kickapoo will cross SH-9 about five miles east of the current outskirts of Norman development. Norman is growing, but that part of the city is developing slowly enough that I don't think we'll see a whole lot of development in that corridor in the next 20 years.

The clock on the Indian Hills turnpike is ticking faster. Moore is probably less likely to be opposed to it than Norman is; it might be a good idea to split that proposal in two and construct the part west of I-35 (which would pass through Moore and OKC) now and leave the part east of I-35  until the locals get their heads out of their asses and realize they aren't going to be able to indefinitely live a "rural lifestyle" smack dab between two of the largest cities in the state.

I say just build the whole damn thing at once. These NIMBYs aren't going to wise up. Hell south Pasadena opposed a freeway tunnel they wouldn't even see. They won't wise up.

"Indian Hills Turnpike?" Is that the official name of the East to West Connector. It at least sounds better than "East to West Connector."

Yes, there is more time available to secure ROW and build out the Kickapoo extension down to Purcell. The situation with the East to West Connector is far more urgent. I really think they need to start building out the frontage roads for it, just to secure the ROW, as soon as possible. It doesn't cost all that much money to remodel a surface street corridor to fit a new super highway later.

Still, it would be really good if the OTA could at least get parts of the I-44 to I-35 link from Newcastle built early on. With that built some of the Norman NIMBYs might warm up to the idea of having better highway connections going both East and West from town.

That name isn't official; I was just referring to it as such because the section-line road it follows is Indian Hills Road.

OTA has historically decided the official names of its turnpikes relatively late in the process. What is now the Kickapoo was officially referred to as the "Eastern Oklahoma County Loop" until just before opening. The signing plans included panels referring to it as "*Placeholder* Turnpike".

I have no idea what they'll come up with as the official name for this one. Unlike most of the other turnpikes in the system, there aren't any tribes associated with the area (Cleveland County was part of the Unassigned Lands), and the two nearest tribes either already have a turnpike (Chickasaw) or would be confusing (Absentee Shawnee). I hope they don't do something stupid like name it the Barry Switzer Turnpike. Maybe they'll just give it a number and leave it at that.

The Toby Keith Turnpike. That would be pretty good.  :-D

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 11, 2022, 12:57:30 PM
The Toby Keith Turnpike. That would be pretty good.  :-D

Would the shields be a red Solo cup?

As far as I know, Boaty McBoatface is still unused within the OTA system.

Quote from: kphoger on October 26, 2017, 12:03:51 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 20, 2017, 06:52:44 AM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 20, 2017, 12:36:29 AM
Call it the Boaty McBoatface Route for all I care.

I feel like this calls for a OTA standard turnpike marker to be created with this name. (I would do it but text on a curve is a pain in the ass.)

Just forget the curve, then.

(https://i.imgur.com/383UUEY.png)

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 10, 2022, 05:05:03 PM
Interesting that this turnpike might be the hill that Mayor Breea Clark wants to die on. She is up for re-election in less than a month–she just got a plurality in the first round and there's a run-off the first week of April, where she's running against a very conservative pro-police candidate Larry Heikkila (who was a principal of the Unite Norman movement, on the off-chance that anyone here has knowledge of Norman municipal politics).

Clark seems to think that the voters in rural east and north Norman will be opposed enough to this that by coming out against it she might be able to split those voters off from Heikkila, who would be the natural choice for conservative rural voters. Clark is generally a pretty shrewd politician and has managed to survive a recall attempt despite being one of the most left-wing politicians in deep-red Oklahoma. That being said, I don't think the runoff in April will necessarily be a referendum on the turnpike. Heikkila is pretty far right for Norman voters' tastes, and Unite Norman doesn't have the best track record of actually managing to accomplish much electorally as a result.

I do not understand what most of these (Norman) peeps problem is? it's going through the most rural areas of Norman, and it's going to be so beneficial to everyone. Clark needs to just fuck off. LOL. I'm with Panda, get that dam'n thing built.

The opposition to the Indian Hills turnpike is NIMBYism.

There are some valid reasons to be concerned about the route of the Kickapoo extension, as it passes rather close to Lake Thunderbird (which is Norman's primary source of drinking water).

The mayor may not be in favor of the turnpikes but this has me hopeful.

Quote
"There are a lot of unknowns right now and rest assured that we are working as a council on your behalf to get as much information out there as possible,"  Tortorello said. "We're meeting with state representatives, ODOT [Oklahoma Department of Transportation], OTA to get as much information as possible. I am in awe of the work that the community is doing, sharing data. This is the way Norman is. This is the way we do things. I'm just proud of what we're seeing so far."

Tortorello announced he would hold Facebook live on his council ward page Thursday night to provide updates and would do so every week or every other week.

Ward 8 Matt Peacock said he hopes residents in his ward know he supports them. The toll road will run along Indian Hills Road in Peacock's ward.

"It's not just Ward 5 that's affected,"  Peacock said. "I've heard a lot of the concerns from my constituents, and I just want to say that I hear you, we hear you, and we are looking at every available opportunity and option to see what we can do to impact this thing. Just know that we're trying to work for you."

That sounds like some on the board would rather influence the planning than kill it. Norman has some genuine reasons to bargain. I didn't notice anything along the East-West but the proposed Kickapoo extension goes through some wetlands and a couple neighborhoods. A few modifications may be all that's needed to get the needed support from Norman.

The ACCESS Oklahoma plan looks well planned for future needs. We are going to need new models to fund our roads as more vehicles go electric so turnpikes are one of the best ways to go. I'd hate to go to this model (https://time.com/6154394/la-mesa-election-climate-change-san-diego/) where drivers are charged every time they use their vehicles. (Note: link is to Time magazine web site which allows a limited number of articles per month)

The way road funding is going, with games being played on how gasoline taxes are used (such as funding teacher pay in Oklahoma), I would not be the least bit surprised to see toll tag readers and cameras get installed all over ordinary 2-lane highways and surface streets.

Now we stop the turnpikes due to rare rose rocks: https://kfor.com/news/local/oklahomans-worried-turnpike-expansion-will-destroy-rare-rose-rocks/

I can't wait to see what excuse they come up with next.

At my AMBUCS civic club meeting Monday our guest speaker was Gene Love, who is currently the chairman of the OTA board of directors. I asked him about some of the publicized blow-back happening around the Norman area. He said the vast majority of people he has talked to about the plan are overwhelmingly in favor of building the new turnpikes. They're just not getting their voices heard. Widening the rest of the Turner Turnpike to 6 lanes and building the new East-to-West Connector will be very beneficial.

Love warned the routes for some of the new turnpikes on the Access Oklahoma map are preliminary. The alignments may be adjusted as the OTA does all of its studies. I did tell him that it was imperative that OTA do something to acquire and reserve ROW for the East to West Connector as soon as possible, even if it means building an upgrade-ready Super 2 route or a divided street with a huge median. If they don't move fast enough developers will build over every possible route path. It could turn into another missed opportunity like S Sara Road and OK-4 over in Mustang. Gene Love is from Lawton. I asked him about any planned improvements for the H.E. Bailey Turnpike. More things are going to happen on I-44 North of Lawton, particularly between Chickasha and Newcastle. Not too awful much will happen to the Walters toll plaza South of Lawton. In the short term they're planning on removing the toll booths and making it to where motorists can drive through the plaza at normal 75mph speeds. I told him the OK-5 bridge over the toll booths is in horrible condition. It just needs to be replaced. The whole damned interchange needs to be replaced really. OTA just doesn't have the funding scheduled for it in the current capital plan.

Thanks for the update although I hope the whole E-W corridor is built at once. That interchange at I-35 is what excited me the most. Hopefully as traffic and the population grows they will get more revenue or perhaps the state could vote to increase the amounts of bonds they are allowed to take out at once and then add some more projects like the Walters Plaza project.

I have a sneaking suspicion the OTA may add the 5-level directional stack interchange with I-35 and the East-to-West Connector in a number of phases. It would not surprise me at all if the East-to-West Connector initially opened with a volleyball interchange at I-35. Traffic on the frontage roads might be pretty friggin' heavy if they do that. Over time the OTA would add fly-over ramps, probably just one pair at a time over a several years or even over a decade.

A Facebook group and page have been setup and the Norman city council officially opposed the turnpikes.

I tried posting in a very civil manner in the Facebook group voicing my support for the tollways and my post was removed claiming I'm "hindering"  their goal to stop this.

https://kfor.com/news/local/norman-city-council-unanimously-supports-resolution-opposing-turnpike-extension-plan/

Wow. If that's their reason for removing your post then that tells me they would refuse to listen to anything constructive about any issue.

Quote from: plain on March 22, 2022, 10:54:03 PM
Wow. If that's their reason for removing your post then that tells me they would refuse to listen to anything constructive about any issue.

I guess they banned me from their group because I can't even go to their group now. But if you're not banned you can go there and look at the group rules they claimed I violated by "hindering"  their goal of "abolishing"  the OTA or stopping this project whichever it was.

I'm afraid to even visit the Facebook group because I don't feel like getting really pissed off this close to bed time.

Honestly, if the citizens in Norman (and Moore) truly want to block construction of the East to West Connector and the Kickapoo Turnpike then, well, fuck 'em. The OTA should re-direct their capital improvement efforts elsewhere in locations the efforts would be more welcome. Same goes for ODOT. My part of Oklahoma needs a lot of help with its roads. Let the OTA sink a good bit of money into I-44 to the South of Lawton for one thing. Rogers Lane in Lawton needs to be turned into a proper freeway rather than the glorified street with two exits that it is now. We need a South bypass for our industrial trucking traffic. People in my region have asked about a better link between Lawton and Ardmore via Duncan.

I don't think it's Moore. It's just Norman. This route is more important to regional travel than it is just for Norman. I said in my post this

QuoteThis project needs to happen. There is a huge gap between limited access freeways from I-240 even *if* Highway 9 becomes a fully controlled access facility. And that's a big if.

If this project is successfully stopped development will still happen and Indian Hills will become a traffic choked road with future generations wonder why the hell nothing was done just like the current situation Edmond is in today.

It is a blessing to have a route like this that is open for transportation uses unlike edmond that is choked with development.

I fully support this project and will use it if built. I'm not opposed to eminent domaine. I own land along CA-138 and am looking at having to sell to Caltrans for freeway expansion. I fully support it.

Heh. You definitely weren't doing yourself any favors mentioning California. There's no place conservative Okies hate worse (other than possibly Texas).

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 22, 2022, 11:29:27 PM

Quote from: plain on March 22, 2022, 10:54:03 PM
Wow. If that's their reason for removing your post then that tells me they would refuse to listen to anything constructive about any issue.

I guess they banned me from their group because I can't even go to their group now. But if you're not banned you can go there and look at the group rules they claimed I violated by "hindering"  their goal of "abolishing"  the OTA or stopping this project whichever it was.

lol, and they banned me from their group as well because I live outside of Oklahoma, and I got chewed out in the comments on supporting the expansion plan in that area.  :-D

The OTA doesn't fuck around. Remember, some nimbys tried to stop the first segment of the Creek Turnpike, but the OTA just laughed at them.  They even destroyed some state property during their "protests" but the road is there anyway. They won't be able to stop these new turnpikes.

It's not clear that's a united group. There are signs against toll roads, not against freeways in general. It's probably some anti-toll, some environmentalists, some NIMBYs and BANANAs, and some who just reflexively protest against anything. It could be just a lot of squeaky wheels. You can probably work with the mainstream environmentalists to mitigate their concerns which should satisfy most of the moderates. You probably can't work with the extreme environmentalists (who really fall into the BANANA category) or the other groups but the anti-toll group can probably be ignored. The worst thing OTA could do though is to ignore all the complaints which will just solidify the opposition.

My respect to Plutonic Panda for trying to work with them. I consider you one of the more moderate people here and if they can't work with you they probably won't work with anyone.

OTA doesn't play by the same rules ODOT does. Since they have their own bonding authority and don't rely on any FHWA money, the Tenth Amendment allows them to straight-up ignore a lot of the regulations we're used to state DOTs having to follow (and that protestors tend to use as tools to force the cancellation of projects), including some of the EIS requirements. Like bugo says, historically OTA has not given the slightest shit about any opposition.

Apparently the OTA was already pretty deep into their corridor studies before they made a public announcement about Access Oklahoma. The turnpike paths shown on the web site map are still preliminary. However, I can't see anything obviouly wrong about where they proposed to build the East-to-West Connector or Kickapoo Turnpike extension.

West Indian Hills Road looks like the absolute best path for the East-to-West Connector. It's the least developed East-West arterial in the Moore-Norman area and is straight East of the I-44/OK-37 interchnage in Newcastle. I think the OTA ought to start buying up ROW right now. The existing 2-lane street can function as the South half of the frontage roads to the West of I-35. East of I-35 the path might have to shift to where the existing street turns into the North half of the frontage roads.

I'm sure Gene Love and the rest of the OTA board of directors takes public opposition seriously. But, again, people who are in favor of this turnpike plan are NOT being heard at all. Love said there is a lot of people in the OKC area and state-wide who want this plan to go forward. With better super highway connectivity along the South and East sides of the OKC metro those new turnpikes could un-cork a boom in new business and residential developments in those parts of OKC metro area.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 23, 2022, 05:06:31 PM
But, again, people who are in favor of this turnpike plan are NOT being heard at all.

Googling "Access Oklahoma" won't turn up the accessoklahoma.com (http://accessoklahoma.com) site (even when I tried pages 2 and 3), but only the news articles critical of the plan were shown.

Quote from: bugo on March 23, 2022, 03:39:24 AM
The OTA doesn't fuck around. Remember, some nimbys tried to stop the first segment of the Creek Turnpike, but the OTA just laughed at them.  They even destroyed some state property during their "protests" but the road is there anyway. They won't be able to stop these new turnpikes.

The Creek situation was different.  A freeway/turnpike had been planned for the 96th St corridor since the 1950's. It even showed up on plats for various housing additions. Anyone who bought a home in that area and didn't know about this had no grounds to protest.

Last minute bill filed to get the OTA to do what they already did but I doubt Stitt signs it as he seems to want this be part of his legacy.

https://okcfox.com/news/local/bill-requiring-ota-to-justify-norman-turnpike-route-passes-senate-03-25-2022

Quote from: bugo on March 23, 2022, 03:39:24 AM
The OTA doesn't fuck around. Remember, some nimbys tried to stop the first segment of the Creek Turnpike, but the OTA just laughed at them.  They even destroyed some state property during their "protests" but the road is there anyway. They won't be able to stop these new turnpikes.

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 23, 2022, 02:44:50 PM
OTA doesn't play by the same rules ODOT does. Since they have their own bonding authority and don't rely on any FHWA money, the Tenth Amendment allows them to straight-up ignore a lot of the regulations we're used to state DOTs having to follow (and that protestors tend to use as tools to force the cancellation of projects), including some of the EIS requirements. Like bugo says, historically OTA has not given the slightest shit about any opposition.

Quote from: rte66man on March 24, 2022, 06:42:38 AM

Quote from: bugo on March 23, 2022, 03:39:24 AM
The OTA doesn't fuck around. Remember, some nimbys tried to stop the first segment of the Creek Turnpike, but the OTA just laughed at them.  They even destroyed some state property during their "protests" but the road is there anyway. They won't be able to stop these new turnpikes.

The Creek situation was different.  A freeway/turnpike had been planned for the 96th St corridor since the 1950's. It even showed up on plats for various housing additions. Anyone who bought a home in that area and didn't know about this had no grounds to protest.

That is a reason why I Embrace Beautiful Toll Roads.

Quote from: I-55 on March 23, 2022, 05:21:40 PM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 23, 2022, 05:06:31 PM
But, again, people who are in favor of this turnpike plan are NOT being heard at all.

Googling "Access Oklahoma" won't turn up the accessoklahoma.com (http://accessoklahoma.com) site (even when I tried pages 2 and 3), but only the news articles critical of the plan were shown.

That is a reason why I Oppose Google.

Quote from: In_Correct on March 25, 2022, 08:41:07 AM

Quote from: I-55 on March 23, 2022, 05:21:40 PM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 23, 2022, 05:06:31 PM
But, again, people who are in favor of this turnpike plan are NOT being heard at all.

Googling "Access Oklahoma" won't turn up the accessoklahoma.com (http://accessoklahoma.com) site (even when I tried pages 2 and 3), but only the news articles critical of the plan were shown.

That is a reason why I Oppose Google.

It looks like the Access Oklahoma site's pages have a 'noindex' tag (https://developers.google.com/search/docs/advanced/crawling/block-indexing), which Google interprets as a request to exclude it from search results.

Someone may have forgot it was there, or to remove it after the public announcement.

The site is easy enough to reach via the OTA's main PikePass web site.

Quote from: Elm on March 25, 2022, 11:22:56 AM
It looks like the Access Oklahoma site's pages have a 'noindex' tag (https://developers.google.com/search/docs/advanced/crawling/block-indexing), which Google interprets as a request to exclude it from search results.

That's Oklahoma government all right.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 22, 2022, 11:36:46 PM
I'm afraid to even visit the Facebook group because I don't feel like getting really pissed off this close to bed time.

Honestly, if the citizens in Norman (and Moore) truly want to block construction of the East to West Connector and the Kickapoo Turnpike then, well, fuck 'em. The OTA should re-direct their capital improvement efforts elsewhere in locations the efforts would be more welcome. Same goes for ODOT. My part of Oklahoma needs a lot of help with its roads. Let the OTA sink a good bit of money into I-44 to the South of Lawton for one thing. Rogers Lane in Lawton needs to be turned into a proper freeway rather than the glorified street with two exits that it is now. We need a South bypass for our industrial trucking traffic. People in my region have asked about a better link between Lawton and Ardmore via Duncan.

I agree Bobby, it does seem like southwestern Oklahoma gets shunned about progress. I would personally like to see a southern Oklahoma east/west turnpike that connects to I-44 near Randlett and goes east to I-35 and continue east to connect to Durant at US 69/75 (future I-45). Possibly to continue east to the Indian nation turnpike at Hugo.

For an East-West turnpike across much of Southern Oklahoma, I'd prefer a combination of a freeway/turnpike that more directly linked the larger cities and towns in the Southern part of the state, starting at Altus, going to Lawton, dipping below Duncan on the way to Ardmore, then on to Durant, Hugo and Idabel. Chances are nil such a highway would ever happen until population growth in cities like Lawton, Altus, Duncan, Ardmore and Durant shoots up dramatically.

If I could have my way at building a new long distance turnpike in Oklahoma I would build one loosely parallel to the OK-3 corridor from Woodward thru OKC and down thru Ada, Atoka and Antlers before pushing down to Idabel and a connection into Arkansas with I-49 near Ashdown. The bigger picture idea in this is creating a diagonal Interstate from the Denver area down thru OKC to the Texarkana area to hook into I-49 on the way to the Gulf of Mexico. It would be an alternative Ports to Plains Corridor, but also something that would directly connect the Front Range Cities in Colorado with the Deep South. The route would do even more to underscore the importance of Oklahoma City as a major, central hub of the Interstate highway system.

And still no US 69 turnpike...

I think they'll fart around until Arkansas starts seriously building out I-49 between Texarkana and Fort Smith. I think there is a decent chance a finished I-49 could pull a good bit of traffic (and business that goes with it) off of US-69. The anti freeway folks in Atoka and Stringtown could see a lot fewer visitors. And the @$$holes running speed traps there will be getting less ticket revenue. Let those places dry up for all I care.

Found this article (https://www.normantranscript.com/news/odot-buys-unrelated-parcels-near-planned-turnpikes-for-projects/article_999927a8-a56e-11ec-b80c-b75d1545daec.html) where ODOT is already buying properties along the Indian Hills Road corridor. Not all are related to ACCESS Oklahoma but some could be.

Maybe ODOT is quietly getting put in charge of the building (cough) surface streets with a big median down the middle. Then OTA comes in and lays down the new turnpike into that center space.

ODOT was planning on doing something to the I-35/Indian Hills interchange long before the Access Oklahoma plan was released. It's a pretty sucky interchange as it exists now. If I remember correctly, they were planning to convert it into a DDI.  Now, of course, they needn't bother and can just sell all that property to OTA.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 27, 2022, 05:58:06 PM
I think they'll fart around until Arkansas starts seriously building out I-49 between Texarkana and Fort Smith. I think there is a decent chance a finished I-49 could pull a good bit of traffic (and business that goes with it) off of US-69. The anti freeway folks in Atoka and Stringtown could see a lot fewer visitors. And the @$$holes running speed traps there will be getting less ticket revenue. Let those places dry up for all I care.

Those two small speed trap towns with less than 3,500 people are blocking improved access for 1.5 million people in eastern Oklahoma?

That is nothing short of insane.

It's insane but the OK State Legislature has been letting it go on and on for decades. I don't fully understand the reasons why because it doesn't make any sense from a business perspective for the entire state. They're putting the interests of a small number of people ahead of the business interests and safety concerns of everyone else.

Time is running against those little speed trap towns. They're not growing at all. If they're like many other rural areas in Oklahoma those towns are slowly bleeding away population via lack of opportunity for young people and older residents dying. Eventually freeway upgrades US-69/75 thru Atoka and Stringtown will be possible. Hell, at some point the remaining people in those towns might beg for it just to keep their towns on the map somehow.

Muskogee is a big enough town that blocking a new US-69 freeway is a tougher problem for ODOT to solve.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 29, 2022, 11:29:50 AM
Muskogee is a big enough town that blocking a new US-69 freeway is a tougher problem for ODOT to solve.

Maybe they should threaten to upgrade US75 from I-40 to Tulsa. If that happens then there is a bypass (albeit tolled) of Muskogee all the way down to McAlester.

My memory could easily be off here but I seem to recall the bypass being killed right after Stitt was sworn into office. Not sure if he had any effect but why is Chickisha opening their arms to a bypass and Muskogee isn't.

Quote from: mvak36Maybe they should threaten to upgrade US75 from I-40 to Tulsa. If that happens then there is a bypass (albeit tolled) of Muskogee all the way down to McAlester.

The US-75 corridor between Henryetta and Tulsa needs lots of upgrades for its own reasons. Even if there was a new freeway or turnpike along that stretch the US-69 corridor from McAlester to Big Cabin would still need a lot of freeway upgrade work. A lot of long haul trucks headed up from Texas to the Northeast US would probably continue using US-69 rather than go thru Tulsa. Maybe.

I think ODOT should build out as much freeway upgrades along US-69 as it can, in areas where they're not getting hit with all sorts of opposition. Let the hold-outs sit there with their local streets getting beat to hell by all the heavy truck traffic while ODOT builds where it can elsewhere. Then come back to those hold-out towns when the timing is right.

Quote from: Plutonic PandaMy memory could easily be off here but I seem to recall the bypass being killed right after Stitt was sworn into office. Not sure if he had any effect but why is Chickisha opening their arms to a bypass and Muskogee isn't.

Different towns can have leaders with different mindsets.

I thought it was pretty much the local leaders in Muskogee that killed the US-69 bypass efforts there. Really, they didn't "kill" the project as much as they did to give ODOT a good excuse to spend capital project money on other projects elsewhere in Oklahoma.

People in Chickasha obviously see a benefit in elevating the importance of the US-81 corridor thru their town. Chickasha is also starting to turn into a sort of ex-hurb of the OKC metro. Maybe they're trying to look toward the future by getting the first phases of the bypass moving. I think they've actually had some plans for this thing for a long time. The bend US-81 takes South of Chickasha, where the North and South lanes spread far apart, was clearly built in mind for a future "Y" interchange. They're going to build the South end of the bypass right there. The North end, at the intersection with US-62 & US-81 already has had the ROW needed for a diamond interchange.

Duncan is more of a mixed bag. They got the South half of the bypass built from US-81 up to OK-7. But now the North half going up into Marlow to dovetail back into US-81 is now in limbo. I don't know if ODOT has simply abandoned it due to local opposition.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 29, 2022, 03:27:09 PM

Quote from: mvak36Maybe they should threaten to upgrade US75 from I-40 to Tulsa. If that happens then there is a bypass (albeit tolled) of Muskogee all the way down to McAlester.

The US-75 corridor between Henryetta and Tulsa needs lots of upgrades for its own reasons. Even if there was a new freeway or turnpike along that stretch the US-69 corridor from McAlester to Big Cabin would still need a lot of freeway upgrade work. A lot of long haul trucks headed up from Texas to the Northeast US would probably continue using US-69 rather than go thru Tulsa. Maybe.

US-75 south of downtown in the city of Tulsa is being upgraded to 6/8 lanes over the next few years under current projects. Most of it is part of the massive I-44/US-75 interchange project, the last phase of that project that includes US-75 starts in 2024. The other section of US-75 in the city of Tulsa to be widened outside of the I-44 project is a mile of the highway that is part of upgrading the 81st St exit scheduled to start late next year.

ODOT is already scheduled to buy the right of way to upgrade the highway south of the city of Tulsa to the Okmulgee County line in the current TIP plan. The long range plan is for US-75 to be expanded to 6 lanes through Jenks to OK-67 (141st St) in Glenpool with service roads in Glenpool.

Outside of the Tulsa area US-75 in northeast Oklahoma does not run through a lot of little towns like what you see with US-69 in southern Oklahoma where the highway is the only major street in town. There's a couple of stoplights in Henryetta, but the highway doesn't really run through the middle of the town. It wouldn't take too much to upgrade the highway there. There is another project scheduled for next year to add bridges for a new limited access exit for the town of Preston.

The problem for US-75 in northeastern Oklahoma is Okmulgee. The highway runs though the center of Okmulgee for more than five miles with many stoplights and curb cuts. It's simply not safe for all those big rigs stopping and going mixing with city traffic. A bypass should have been built decades ago. I know of no plans to change 75 there.

The NIMBYs are definitely coming out in full force on this. This article (https://kfor.com/news/local/norman-resident-says-turnpike-expansion-proposal-will-devalue-home/) is full of manipulated info. It is unlikely the woman interviewed would lose her home as "the turnpike would be built about a quarter-mile from her home" and "she's not in the eminent domain zone of the turnpike's planned path (https://www.accessoklahoma.com/)." (Note: link goes to ACCESS Site. Couldn't link to map.) Actually, the eminent domain zone is that close, not the turnpike. The planned path goes through a heavily wooded area near her home so it's very unlikely that "an adjustment of the turnpike's path could potentially put her in the eminent domain zone." As long as ODOT keeps the turnpike in her neighborhood mostly surrounded by woods she likely wouldn't even notice the highway. As Cedar Lane Road is truncated at 84th AV SE, it's unlikely a viaduct would be built to keep the connection so the neighborhood may even become a little quieter.

There are several people who will likely lose their homes north of OK 9 between urban Norman and Lake Thunderbird. It's curious why the station didn't interview any of those residents. They have far more stake in this highway than this "victim." The opposition to this project is looking more contrived daily.

The news outlets are sure eating up the "controversy."  It seems like every other day they're putting out a new article: https://www.news9.com/story/6243842b1b0b7c0192307b7b/norman-residents-fight-on-against-turnpike-expansion-plan

Another rose rock article. I personally couldn't care less about these rocks and I'm sure they'll be more to find around this area. Just using these rocks and nothing more than an excuse: https://okcfox.com/news/local/norman-residents-hope-rare-rose-rocks-could-help-stop-the-south-extension-turnpike

Man, the OKC metro must be a really boring place. Clearly the news stations out there needed something to talk about.  :rolleyes:

You're not kidding.

A freeway corridor is, what, 100 feet wide? I sort of doubt all of the rose rocks in Cleveland County are concentrated along a 100-foot-wide corridor that just happens to be right where OTA is building the road. God, Noble is exhausting to deal with.

And yet whenever they build a housing development in Noble nobody has anything to say about the rose rocks then.

This is quickly turning into the stupidest political circus I've seen in a long time, in a state that specializes in stupid political circuses.

A typical 4 lane Oklahoma turnpike with a concrete Jersey barrier in the center is around 105' for the actual roadway portion. All the graded green stuff off to the left and right of the roadway expands the full ROW out to around 300'-350'. I'm basing that off the recently re-built portion of I-44 just South of Newcastle. The overall ROW width is going to vary based on terrain, bridges over waterways and existing development. If you put up sound walls or drop it into a trench a 4-lane turnpike can fit into as little as a 110' space while maintaining modern width lanes and shoulders.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 29, 2022, 03:27:09 PM
People in Chickasha obviously see a benefit in elevating the importance of the US-81 corridor thru their town. Chickasha is also starting to turn into a sort of ex-hurb of the OKC metro. Maybe they're trying to look toward the future by getting the first phases of the bypass moving. I think they've actually had some plans for this thing for a long time. The bend US-81 takes South of Chickasha, where the North and South lanes spread far apart, was clearly built in mind for a future "Y" interchange. They're going to build the South end of the bypass right there. The North end, at the intersection with US-62 & US-81 already has had the ROW needed for a diamond interchange.

The Chickasha bypass has been planned for more than 60 years. As you pointed out, that is why US81 south of the OK19 junction has the wide spacing between carriageways.

Quote
Duncan is more of a mixed bag. They got the South half of the bypass built from US-81 up to OK-7. But now the North half going up into Marlow to dovetail back into US-81 is now in limbo. I don't know if ODOT has simply abandoned it due to local opposition.

Duncan doesn't give a rat's ass about a Marlow bypass. They got theirs. Marlow doesn't have anyone with the stroke Jari Askins had when she got the Duncan Bypass.

Quote from: rte66manDuncan doesn't give a rat's ass about a Marlow bypass. They got theirs. Marlow doesn't have anyone with the stroke Jari Askins had when she got the Duncan Bypass.

The problem is the big picture plan for the Duncan Bypass was for both its North and South ends to dovetail into US-81. The bypass is going to draw less thru traffic (such as heavy trucks) if the North end stays dead-ended at OK-7.

I don't remember the exact specifics on why progress was halted for the North phase of the Duncan bypass, but I think it either had to do with opposition from businesses on the South side of Marlow worried about getting bypassed or from home owners worried about their properties being taken.

Regarding the rose rocks, here's a primer on what the heck that actually is.  Should give you an idea of how distributed they are in central Oklahoma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvneeTQyyCs

(video predates the launch of Access Oklahoma and only addresses the roses as a geologic oddity.)

I mean, I get it that these are the official state rock of Oklahoma (https://casetext.com/statute/oklahoma-statutes/title-25-definitions-and-general-provisions/chapter-3-state-emblems-and-honorary-positions/section-981-state-rock).  But seriously, this is taking environmental concerns to a whole new level.  Are rocks the new endangered species?

Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2022, 04:26:34 PM
I mean, I get it that these are the official state rock of Oklahoma (https://casetext.com/statute/oklahoma-statutes/title-25-definitions-and-general-provisions/chapter-3-state-emblems-and-honorary-positions/section-981-state-rock).  But seriously, this is taking environmental concerns to a whole new level.  Are rocks the new endangered species?

Someone in my politics class tried to convince me that water has rights. Before you know it AIR will be an endangered species.

Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2022, 04:26:34 PM
I mean, I get it that these are the official state rock of Oklahoma (https://casetext.com/statute/oklahoma-statutes/title-25-definitions-and-general-provisions/chapter-3-state-emblems-and-honorary-positions/section-981-state-rock).  But seriously, this is taking environmental concerns to a whole new level.  Are rocks the new endangered species?

It's very much a perfunctory reason for stopping the project. I have outright seen people posit questions like "How should we use the rose rocks to stop the turnpike" in Facebook advocacy groups.

Another day another article from a local network about the opposition: https://kfor.com/news/local/norman-residents-argue-republican-platform-contradicts-proposed-turnpike-expansion/

Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 31, 2022, 04:06:37 PM
Regarding the rose rocks, here's a primer on what the heck that actually is.  Should give you an idea of how distributed they are in central Oklahoma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvneeTQyyCs

(video predates the launch of Access Oklahoma and only addresses the roses as a geologic oddity.)

It seems like the rocks are fairly widespread along a narrow N-S line through Central Oklahoma according to a map in the video. It looks like there wasn't any concern in the past as Lake Stanley Draper is an artificial lake created right in the middle of this formation as demonstrated by the two best sites being located along the shoreline; I imagine any rocks buried by the lake have experienced at least some erosion if not having their crystals dissolved. There was also a huge amount of development east of OKC allowed within the formation. It's ridiculous to think that something that obviously has not stopped any damaging development to the formation in the past could preempt a highway that crosses a small part of the formation unless there is also effort to save the rocks against other development.

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 23, 2022, 01:33:16 AM
Heh. You definitely weren't doing yourself any favors mentioning California. There's no place conservative Okies hate worse (other than possibly Texas).

I saw the Foo Fighters in Oklahoma City in 2015. In between songs, Dave Grohl mentioned Amarillo, Texas, and the crowd booed loudly. He got pissed and said "Don't you ever boo an American city like that!" I guess he just doesn't understand the Oklahoma-Texas rivalry.

I saw Tool in Tulsa in January, and between songs, Maynard James Keenan said "Tulsa...it's like Oklahoma City, but better." The crowd laughed, except for the OKC residents, who booed. I thought it was funny.

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 25, 2022, 06:22:16 PM

Quote from: Elm on March 25, 2022, 11:22:56 AM
It looks like the Access Oklahoma site's pages have a 'noindex' tag (https://developers.google.com/search/docs/advanced/crawling/block-indexing), which Google interprets as a request to exclude it from search results.

That's Oklahoma government all right.  :rolleyes:

I don't know if they are still like this, but as late as 2 years ago, there were many open directories on the ODOT website containing various maps and other documents in PDF format. I mass downloaded the documents that looked interesting to me. I still haven't gone through all of the documents to see what they are.

And now they're claiming that widening the highway won't work anyway because of iNDuCEd dEManD
https://www.normantranscript.com/news/induced-demand-alternatives-to-turnpikes/article_ec063240-b218-11ec-a7f6-6fe1bf774671.html

Plutonic Panda has pointed out before the I-40 in OKC has remained uncongested since they widened it from 6 lanes to 10 about a decade ago.

And hilariously, this article says that congestion pricing is needed, citing Singapore and London. I think the author has an inflated opinion of OKC and Tulsa if they think their traffic problems are anywhere near as bad as those two.

I like OKC enough, but yeah it isn't London, Singapore or any global cosmopolitan city. Nevertheless, aren't these people aware of how improved highway access in the OKC might actually be a GOOD thing? As I've said in earlier posts, the South extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike and the East to West Connector between Moore and Norman could help business BOOM. The turnpikes could attract new businesses, booth job growth and improve home values in that area. The areas around Lake Thunderbird and even Lake Stanley Draper could have a lot of new home and resort growth unlocked.

That's the problem–these people don't want growth. They want the world to remain exactly the same way it is the day they bought the property.

That's all well and good, but why did they buy property in Cleveland County instead of somewhere with no growth, like, I dunno, Kiowa County? Because they want to be close to the city. Mmm, well, there's a tradeoff to that, isn't there?

Quote from: kernals12 on April 03, 2022, 01:20:08 PM
And now they're claiming that widening the highway won't work anyway because of iNDuCEd dEManD
https://www.normantranscript.com/news/induced-demand-alternatives-to-turnpikes/article_ec063240-b218-11ec-a7f6-6fe1bf774671.html

Plutonic Panda has pointed out before the I-40 in OKC has remained uncongested since they widened it from 6 lanes to 10 about a decade ago.

And hilariously, this article says that congestion pricing is needed, citing Singapore and London. I think the author has an inflated opinion of OKC and Tulsa if they think their traffic problems are anywhere near as bad as those two.

That's the typical anti car narrative. Funny enough I actually am trying to be as civil as possible with some of these people and I've been privately messaging some of these folks discussing the proposal. The ones that haven't blocked me have calmed down and were talking in a civil manner at this point. I've actually suggested one of the only the real arguments I could see being remotely acceptable is the induced demand theory but even that's a big stretch.

I think Bobby might have pointed this out but I agree with that induced demand would likely be more of an issue in a city like NYC. The majority of people already drive in OKC so how much much traffic on these roads is a result of induced demand? I seriously doubt it'd be that much. I don't consider any new growth that is made possible something negative even if that includes induced demand.

I-40 to this day still flows with zero issue except for the horrible interchange at I-44 which should been addressed when they widened the damn road!  :banghead:

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 03, 2022, 06:07:22 PM
That's the problem–these people don't want growth. They want the world to remain exactly the same way it is the day they bought the property.

That's all well and good, but why did they buy property in Cleveland County instead of somewhere with no growth, like, I dunno, Kiowa County? Because they want to be close to the city. Mmm, well, there's a tradeoff to that, isn't there?

Yeah and the anti growth people don't think long term about the ramifications their mentality has. Look at Moab. I've come to love the town so much I think I'm going to purchase my first home there but the prices are nuts. Go around and talk to people and they're mostly anti growth/anti tourist/UHV types. Mention something like a tunnel bypass of 191 for through traffic and they lose their minds.

Spanish Valley seems to be more growth friendly and I don't think it's long before 191 sees some bad traffic issues. Then again at least Moab embraced a four lane road expansion unlike Sedona.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 03, 2022, 05:29:21 PM
I like OKC enough, but yeah it isn't London, Singapore or any global cosmopolitan city. Nevertheless, aren't these people aware of how improved highway access in the OKC might actually be a GOOD thing? As I've said in earlier posts, the South extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike and the East to West Connector between Moore and Norman could help business BOOM. The turnpikes could attract new businesses, booth job growth and improve home values in that area. The areas around Lake Thunderbird and even Lake Stanley Draper could have a lot of new home and resort growth unlocked.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 03, 2022, 06:10:52 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on April 03, 2022, 01:20:08 PM
And now they're claiming that widening the highway won't work anyway because of iNDuCEd dEManD
https://www.normantranscript.com/news/induced-demand-alternatives-to-turnpikes/article_ec063240-b218-11ec-a7f6-6fe1bf774671.html

Plutonic Panda has pointed out before the I-40 in OKC has remained uncongested since they widened it from 6 lanes to 10 about a decade ago.

And hilariously, this article says that congestion pricing is needed, citing Singapore and London. I think the author has an inflated opinion of OKC and Tulsa if they think their traffic problems are anywhere near as bad as those two.

That's the typical anti car narrative. Funny enough I actually am trying to be as civil as possible with some of these people and I've been privately messaging some of these folks discussing the proposal. The ones that haven't blocked me have calmed down and were talking in a civil manner at this point. I've actually suggested one of the only the real arguments I could see being remotely acceptable is the induced demand theory but even that's a big stretch.

I think Bobby might have pointed this out but I agree with that induced demand would likely be more of an issue in a city like NYC. The majority of people already drive in OKC so how much much traffic on these roads is a result of induced demand? I seriously doubt it'd be that much. I don't consider any new growth that is made possible something negative even if that includes induced demand.

I-40 to this day still flows with zero issue except for the horrible interchange at I-44 which should been addressed when they widened the damn road!  :banghead:

You both are making the mistake of assuming it's possible to have a rational argument with these people.

Quote from: kernals12 on April 03, 2022, 11:07:42 PM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 03, 2022, 05:29:21 PM
I like OKC enough, but yeah it isn't London, Singapore or any global cosmopolitan city. Nevertheless, aren't these people aware of how improved highway access in the OKC might actually be a GOOD thing? As I've said in earlier posts, the South extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike and the East to West Connector between Moore and Norman could help business BOOM. The turnpikes could attract new businesses, booth job growth and improve home values in that area. The areas around Lake Thunderbird and even Lake Stanley Draper could have a lot of new home and resort growth unlocked.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 03, 2022, 06:10:52 PM

Quote from: kernals12 on April 03, 2022, 01:20:08 PM
And now they're claiming that widening the highway won't work anyway because of iNDuCEd dEManD
https://www.normantranscript.com/news/induced-demand-alternatives-to-turnpikes/article_ec063240-b218-11ec-a7f6-6fe1bf774671.html

Plutonic Panda has pointed out before the I-40 in OKC has remained uncongested since they widened it from 6 lanes to 10 about a decade ago.

And hilariously, this article says that congestion pricing is needed, citing Singapore and London. I think the author has an inflated opinion of OKC and Tulsa if they think their traffic problems are anywhere near as bad as those two.

That's the typical anti car narrative. Funny enough I actually am trying to be as civil as possible with some of these people and I've been privately messaging some of these folks discussing the proposal. The ones that haven't blocked me have calmed down and were talking in a civil manner at this point. I've actually suggested one of the only the real arguments I could see being remotely acceptable is the induced demand theory but even that's a big stretch.

I think Bobby might have pointed this out but I agree with that induced demand would likely be more of an issue in a city like NYC. The majority of people already drive in OKC so how much much traffic on these roads is a result of induced demand? I seriously doubt it'd be that much. I don't consider any new growth that is made possible something negative even if that includes induced demand.

I-40 to this day still flows with zero issue except for the horrible interchange at I-44 which should been addressed when they widened the damn road!  :banghead:

You both are making the mistake of assuming it's possible to have a rational argument with these people.

I somewhat confident it's getting built knowing that time after time the OTA rarely loses or opts to cancel/postpone a project. I'm pretty sure these freeways will get built. I was told the only one that could change the most is the airport connector.

Oklahoma legislator introduces bill for OTA to begin planning and buying ROW for Kickapoo extension north to I-35 in Arcadia. Paywalled article https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2022/04/04/no-details-given-proposed-kickapoo-turnpike-expansion-around-lake-arcadia-oklahoma-city-okc/7181882001/

The article is hidden behind a pay-wall.

Arcadia? That's just West of Luther, where the Kickapoo Turnpike currently ends at I-44. Rather than Arcadia, I'm hoping that they're actually proposing to extend the Kickapoo Turnpike farther North to connect into I-35 a few miles South of Guthrie, maybe between I-35 exits I46 (NE 248th St) and 151 (E Seward Road).

Quote from: okc1 on April 04, 2022, 08:40:31 AM
Paywalled article

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 04, 2022, 12:38:12 PM
The article is hidden behind a pay-wall.

:nod:

Here's some of the article:

QuoteResidents and business owners near Lake Arcadia area may soon be fighting the same battle being waged by those in Norman to save their homes from being destroyed by the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority as it seeks to extend its toll road network.

But as with prior turnpike expansions, the effort to allow the OTA to expand into the Lake Arcadia area is moving forward without a map of where the road might go or communication with those who might lose their homes and businesses.

House Bill 4088, authored by Rep. Kevin Wallace, R-Wellston, will authorize the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority to construct a toll road from Interstate 44 near the Kickapoo interchange to Interstate 35.

Rep. Jacob Rosecrants, D-Norman, an opponent of the turnpike expansions, cautioned residents in the Lake Arcadia area that they need to find out more about the legislation before it is too late.

Unlike prior toll road legislation, the corridor requested by Wallace was not formally requested by the turnpike authority. OTA spokeswoman Jessica Brown said Wallace did have a conversation with Joe Echelle, the agency's deputy director but did not disclose details of the visit.

Citing growth and the sprawl of development from Oklahoma County, Wallace said he filed the bill after having conversations with turnpike authority representatives.

Wallace also noted the public outcry about the construction of the Kickapoo Turnpike in eastern Oklahoma County and said he wants to see the OTA start the planning for this route as soon as possible should his bill become law.

"I think it's wise to go ahead and plan for the future, and to go ahead and start lining out the route, acquiring the right of way before any more development occurs in the next however many years before they actually decide to break ground,"  he said.

The OTA, which has promised to be transparent with ACCESS Oklahoma, declined a request by The Oklahoman to detail Echelle's response to Wallace's push for the Arcadia area turnpike or his request for quick acquisition of right-of-way.

During his introduction of the bill, Wallace said he doesn't see the turnpike coming to fruition in the next 15 years. He expects the work won't start until after the OTA completes the ACCESS Oklahoma plan. He said by setting the route now, the OTA won't have to disrupt as much development down the line.

There's more in the article but I don't want post it as the Oklahoman gets funny about posting their entire articles.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 04, 2022, 01:43:05 PM
Here's some of the article:

QuoteResidents and business owners near Lake Arcadia area may soon be fighting the same battle being waged by those in Norman to save their homes from being destroyed by the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority as it seeks to extend its toll road network.

But as with prior turnpike expansions, the effort to allow the OTA to expand into the Lake Arcadia area is moving forward without a map of where the road might go or communication with those who might lose their homes and businesses.

House Bill 4088, authored by Rep. Kevin Wallace, R-Wellston, will authorize the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority to construct a toll road from Interstate 44 near the Kickapoo interchange to Interstate 35.

Rep. Jacob Rosecrants, D-Norman, an opponent of the turnpike expansions, cautioned residents in the Lake Arcadia area that they need to find out more about the legislation before it is too late.

Unlike prior toll road legislation, the corridor requested by Wallace was not formally requested by the turnpike authority. OTA spokeswoman Jessica Brown said Wallace did have a conversation with Joe Echelle, the agency's deputy director but did not disclose details of the visit.

Citing growth and the sprawl of development from Oklahoma County, Wallace said he filed the bill after having conversations with turnpike authority representatives.

Wallace also noted the public outcry about the construction of the Kickapoo Turnpike in eastern Oklahoma County and said he wants to see the OTA start the planning for this route as soon as possible should his bill become law.

"I think it's wise to go ahead and plan for the future, and to go ahead and start lining out the route, acquiring the right of way before any more development occurs in the next however many years before they actually decide to break ground,"  he said.

The OTA, which has promised to be transparent with ACCESS Oklahoma, declined a request by The Oklahoman to detail Echelle's response to Wallace's push for the Arcadia area turnpike or his request for quick acquisition of right-of-way.

During his introduction of the bill, Wallace said he doesn't see the turnpike coming to fruition in the next 15 years. He expects the work won't start until after the OTA completes the ACCESS Oklahoma plan. He said by setting the route now, the OTA won't have to disrupt as much development down the line.

There's more in the article but I don't want post it as the Oklahoman gets funny about posting their entire articles.

Send it to me. I shall post the rest.

I think I sent it? I don't see it in my sent messages yet. Let me know if you got it.

I'm happy to see Oklahoma actually plan for these things for once.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 04, 2022, 04:04:12 PM
I think I sent it? I don't see it in my sent messages yet. Let me know if you got it.

I'm happy to see Oklahoma actually plan for these things for once.

Did you remember to click the little option button to save a copy in your sent-box?

Quote from: kphoger on April 04, 2022, 04:06:02 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 04, 2022, 04:04:12 PM
I think I sent it? I don't see it in my sent messages yet. Let me know if you got it.

I'm happy to see Oklahoma actually plan for these things for once.

Did you remember to click the little option button to save a copy in your sent-box?

No I didn't do that. That's why. Thanks I always forget to do that.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 04, 2022, 01:43:05 PM
the Oklahoman gets funny about posting their entire articles.

That's good, because they always deserve to be laughed at.

Anyway, who needs them? http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2021-22%20ENGR/hB/HB4088%20ENGR.PDF

Quote
Section 1705. The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority is hereby authorized and empowered:
[...]

(e)  To construct, maintain, repair and operate turnpike  projects and highways, with their access and connecting roads, at such locations and on such routes as it shall determine to be feasible and economically sound; provided, that until specifically authorized by the Legislature, the Authority shall be authorized to construct and operate toll turnpikes only at the following locations:

[...]

(20)  All or any part of an Oklahoma City Outer Loop expressway system beginning in the vicinity of I-35 and the Turner Turnpike and extending west into Canadian County and then south to I-40; and then south and east to I-35 in the vicinity of Moore and Norman; and then extending east and north to I-40 east of Tinker Field; and then extending north to the Turner Turnpike; and then extending north and west to I-35 to complete the Outer Loop.

HB 4088 adds the underlined portion. Anyway, it's worth it to read all of Section 1705, which is included in the above link, as the OTA has been authorized to build a lot of things that they haven't ever actually done, some of which are even sensible ideas (like a link from the Northwest Expressway to Watonga).

It'd be nice to see that link from NWE to Watonga built as long as it bypasses the town. Then let ODOT do the rest for an interstate connection NW to Colorado which that section should have no tolls since it'll be an ODOT upgrade. ODOT needs to upgrade NWE to a freeway NW of the Kilpatrick and OKC should make the other sections of NWE, well, more of an expressway.

Cleveland County commissioners vote against the project smh

https://okcfox.com/news/local/cleveland-county-commissioners-vote-against-ota-turnpike-project

https://kfor.com/news/local/cleveland-county-commissioners-vote-against-turnpike-expansion/

I wonder when/if it's all built and they see an influx of new businesses and residents due to the spurred growth, more new tax revenue, if they'll not like it.

Quote from: Scott5114Anyway, it's worth it to read all of Section 1705, which is included in the above link, as the OTA has been authorized to build a lot of things that they haven't ever actually done, some of which are even sensible ideas (like a link from the Northwest Expressway to Watonga).

That gap on OK-3 from Okarche to Watonga has always really bugged me. If a freeway or turnpike going Northwest out of OKC to Woodward (and perhaps beyond) was ever built I would hope they would make a direct path from Okarche to Watonga. The folks in Kingfisher might not like that, but super highways really need to run on a more direct path.

Quote from: Plutonic PandaCleveland County commissioners vote against the project smh

Do those county commissioners have the final word on the toll roads or can the OTA just push forward regardless?

^^^ I believe it's nothing more than a resolution formally stating their opinion on the matter. More than a suggestion from them anything.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 04, 2022, 10:38:45 PM
I believe it's nothing more than a resolution formally stating their opinion on the matter. More than a suggestion from them anything.

...to make their constituents think they're doing something?

Quote from: kphoger on April 04, 2022, 10:41:06 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 04, 2022, 10:38:45 PM
I believe it's nothing more than a resolution formally stating their opinion on the matter. More than a suggestion from them anything.

...to make their constituents think they're doing something?

I guess. I don't know I mean like I said I really think they low key support it as they know it'll bring in more revenue but like you said the popular thing to do down there seems to be to oppose the turnpikes. Bunch of jokers.

Quote from: kphoger on April 04, 2022, 10:41:06 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 04, 2022, 10:38:45 PM
I believe it's nothing more than a resolution formally stating their opinion on the matter. More than a suggestion from them anything.

...to make their constituents think they're doing something?

Basically. Cleveland County politicians know which side their bread's buttered on when it comes to this issue.

This turnpike package is firmly Kevin Stitt (R)'s baby. Whenever people have sent anti-turnpike messages to his office, his people brush them off with a form letter. So the only way I see it getting cancelled is if Stitt loses his re-election bid (and there are many other reasons besides the turnpike that could conceivably justify a vote against him). But, about that...

(https://i.imgur.com/icto2f9.png)

I wonder how many of these people will wail and moan about the turnpike project and then vote for Stitt in November because, even though he wants to demolish their house, he's got the right letter after his name...

Quote from: Plutonic Panda^^^ I believe it's nothing more than a resolution formally stating their opinion on the matter. More than a suggestion from them anything.

I see. Just putting some lip service out there for the media cycle.

The more I look at it on the map, the area from the I-44/OK-37 interchange going East along W Indian Hills Rd looks like the perfect place for a new turnpike or even a freeway. If the East-West Connector was built as a freeway I'd re-route the OK-37 designation straight East out of Newcastle along that path. I would definitely use the East-West Connector in combination with the Kickapoo Turnpike for my drives from Lawton up to Tulsa. It would probably help lighten some of the traffic load on I-44 within OKC. The same goes for I-35 if the Kickapoo Turnpike connected to I-35 both North and South of the OKC metro.

From The News:

Quote

Residents and business owners near Lake Arcadia area may soon be fighting the same battle being waged by those in Norman to save their homes from being destroyed by the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority as it seeks to extend its toll road network.

But as with prior turnpike expansions, the effort to allow the OTA to expand into the Lake Arcadia area is moving forward without a map of where the road might go or communication with those who might lose their homes and businesses.

Property owners over the years have repeatedly complained they had no warning before lawmakers gave the OTA permission to proceed. This time, however, those residents can still appeal to legislators to stop it from proceeding.

All this comes as hundreds of residents in the Norman area are protesting the $5 billion ACCESS Oklahoma plan that includes 55 miles of new roads that will cut through neighborhoods, farmhouses, trailers and businesses on the south side of the Oklahoma City metropolitan area.

The OTA is free to use eminent domain to force through property sales as long as the toll roads are in areas previously authorized by lawmakers that, in the case of Norman, provided hints but no real pathways of the future corridors.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 04, 2022, 11:01:22 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda^^^ I believe it's nothing more than a resolution formally stating their opinion on the matter. More than a suggestion from them anything.

I see. Just putting some lip service out there for the media cycle.

The more I look at it on the map, the area from the I-44/OK-37 interchange going East along W Indian Hills Rd looks like the perfect place for a new turnpike or even a freeway. If the East-West Connector was built as a freeway I'd re-route the OK-37 designation straight East out of Newcastle along that path. I would definitely use the East-West Connector in combination with the Kickapoo Turnpike for my drives from Lawton up to Tulsa. It would probably help lighten some of the traffic load on I-44 within OKC. The same goes for I-35 if the Kickapoo Turnpike connected to I-35 both North and South of the OKC metro.

Agreed! I can't think of a better place. Hopefully this thing gets built.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 04, 2022, 11:01:22 PM
... a new turnpike or even a freeway.

:hmm:  Is the turnpike not proposed to be a freeway?

I tend to use the term "turnpike" or "toll road" for any super highway with toll gates on it. I like to use "freeway" for a super highway without toll gates.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 04, 2022, 11:01:22 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda^^^ I believe it's nothing more than a resolution formally stating their opinion on the matter. More than a suggestion from them anything.

I see. Just putting some lip service out there for the media cycle.

The more I look at it on the map, the area from the I-44/OK-37 interchange going East along W Indian Hills Rd looks like the perfect place for a new turnpike or even a freeway. If the East-West Connector was built as a freeway I'd re-route the OK-37 designation straight East out of Newcastle along that path. I would definitely use the East-West Connector in combination with the Kickapoo Turnpike for my drives from Lawton up to Tulsa. It would probably help lighten some of the traffic load on I-44 within OKC. The same goes for I-35 if the Kickapoo Turnpike connected to I-35 both North and South of the OKC metro.

Seconded/thirded. OK 37 is barely signed along SW 134th/S 4th anyways, so might as well sign it along the new east-west connector, provided that it's built as planned.

Quote from: okroads on April 05, 2022, 11:23:07 AM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 04, 2022, 11:01:22 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda^^^ I believe it's nothing more than a resolution formally stating their opinion on the matter. More than a suggestion from them anything.

I see. Just putting some lip service out there for the media cycle.

The more I look at it on the map, the area from the I-44/OK-37 interchange going East along W Indian Hills Rd looks like the perfect place for a new turnpike or even a freeway. If the East-West Connector was built as a freeway I'd re-route the OK-37 designation straight East out of Newcastle along that path. I would definitely use the East-West Connector in combination with the Kickapoo Turnpike for my drives from Lawton up to Tulsa. It would probably help lighten some of the traffic load on I-44 within OKC. The same goes for I-35 if the Kickapoo Turnpike connected to I-35 both North and South of the OKC metro.

Seconded/thirded. OK 37 is barely signed along SW 134th/S 4th anyways, so might as well sign it along the new east-west connector, provided that it's built as planned.

This would also mend OK 37's weird eastern terminus, where it ends at an old alignment of SH-77H a block short of the current highway.

ODOT would love this because it'd mean they'd get to drop 4th Street onto the cities while not having to be on the hook for the replacement mileage.

I wonder if they could take a page out of Texas' book, signing OK-37 on the frontage roads (also naming them West Indian Hills Road) but then putting the turnpike down the median maybe with a different number or even an Interstate designation.

If the Access Oklahoma plan can go forward with these new OKC toll roads as envisioned ODOT and OTA will have to re-think that odd-ball I-240 re-designation. I don't see any problem with I-240 overlapping all of the Kilpatrick Turnpike. If the Kickapoo Turnpike is extended down to Purcell and possibly North near Guthrie it would be far more logical to give it an I-x35 designation, something like I-435 or I-835. That way I-35 traffic going thru OKC would see the Kickapoo Turnpike as a high speed alternative. That East-West Connector could be another I-x35 route or even an I-x44 route.

I wish they'd sign I-44 via Kilpatrick turnpike and SH-74 south.

As for the I-240 they should scrap that in favor of signing the Kickapoo Turnpike I-635 in hopes of a eventual "second"  outer loop.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 05, 2022, 04:29:27 PM
I wish they'd sign I-44 via Kilpatrick turnpike and SH-74 south.

As for the I-240 they should scrap that in favor of signing the Kickapoo Turnpike I-635 in hopes of a eventual "second"  outer loop.

I'd argue it'd make more sense for A 435 or 835 designation, as 635 is not only used for the outer loop for both Kansas City and DFW, but is also the only x35 designation in Texas. Having 3 major metro areas in a row with an I-635 might make things confusing for less-aware motorists. But that's moving towards Fictional Highways discussion anyway.

I'd use an I-635 or I-644 designation on the East to West Connector Turnpike.

Quote from: Cerlin on April 05, 2022, 04:54:41 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 05, 2022, 04:29:27 PM
I wish they'd sign I-44 via Kilpatrick turnpike and SH-74 south.

As for the I-240 they should scrap that in favor of signing the Kickapoo Turnpike I-635 in hopes of a eventual "second"  outer loop.

I'd argue it'd make more sense for A 435 or 835 designation, as 635 is not only used for the outer loop for both Kansas City and DFW, but is also the only x35 designation in Texas. Having 3 major metro areas in a row with an I-635 might make things confusing for less-aware motorists. But that's moving towards Fictional Highways discussion anyway.

435 is the KC outer loop. 635 is a connector further in.

I'd prefer 735/835/935 for the Indian Hills connector, since those numbers aren't used anywhere. For the Kickapoo south extension, I-140 or I-440 would be appropriate. We shouldn't use x44s in Oklahoma City because those numbers are the only ones available for Lawton and Tulsa (for now).

Realistically I think the most likely option for the east-west turnpike is OK-337.

If anything is going to receive a 3di, I'd say it should be the Kickapoo. A southern extension, combined with a potential northern one, would create a seamless north-south I-35 bypass.

Norman Mayor Breea Clark, who is against the turnpike, appears to have been defeated for re-election (results are still unofficial, but she is down by more than 6 percentage points, so I wouldn't expect the results to change). Her opponent, Larry Heikkila, has said he has been working with state officials to "address the negative impacts" the turnpikes will have on Norman.

Also From The News:

Quote

House Bill 4088, authored by Rep. Kevin Wallace, R-Wellston, will authorize the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority to construct a toll road from Interstate 44 near the Kickapoo interchange to Interstate 35.

Rep. Jacob Rosecrants, D-Norman, an opponent of the turnpike expansions, cautioned residents in the Lake Arcadia area that they need to find out more about the legislation before it is too late.

It's confusing, it's vague,"  Rosecrants said. "I imagine its intentionally vague. You think about big agencies, that's how it works. If I were them, I would be concerned. They need to get loud if they don't want a turnpike."

Unlike prior toll road legislation, the corridor requested by Wallace was not formally requested by the turnpike authority. OTA spokeswoman Jessica Brown said Wallace did have a conversation with Joe Echelle, the agency's deputy director but did not disclose details of the visit.

Quote from: sprjus4If anything is going to receive a 3di, I'd say it should be the Kickapoo. A southern extension, combined with a potential northern one, would create a seamless north-south I-35 bypass.

Which is why I believe the Kickapoo Turnpike should have only one route number on its entire length. That could be something like "I-835" or "OK-335".

I don't like I-240 running on part of the Kickapoo Turnpike at all. Splitting the route into two or three different Interstate designations would be potentially confusing to motorists. A fully extended Kickapoo Turnpike should act as a relief valve for I-35 within OKC. If that substantially long turnpike attaches to I-35 at both ends, and has a high speed limit of 75mph or 80mph, it may alleviate some of the burden on stretches of I-35 in OKC. Some segments of I-35 are badly in need of improvement, such as the one just North of downtown. There are plans to widen it. Further improvements would be easier to accomplish if the Kickapoo Turnpike served as a complete relief route for I-35.

Quote from: Scott5114I'd prefer 735/835/935 for the Indian Hills connector, since those numbers aren't used anywhere. For the Kickapoo south extension, I-140 or I-440 would be appropriate. We shouldn't use x44s in Oklahoma City because those numbers are the only ones available for Lawton and Tulsa (for now).

If given an Interstate designation the East to West Connector would need to take an even number since both ends are connecting to superhighways. The Kickapoo Turnpike would be more likely to gain an Interstate number than the East to West Connector (since there are already plans to plaster I-240 shields on part of it). So if the East to West Connector was given an Interstate name it would very likely be connecting to Interstates at both ends, hence the need for an even number. I think "I-635" makes the most sense even if there is another I-635 nearby in Dallas.

If Lawton ever received any I-x44 designations they would likely be odd-numbered spur routes, nothing like "I-644" or "I-844." That's why I suggested the "I-644" designation as another possibility for the East to West Connector. It would be a stretch to stick an "I-640" designation on the East to West Connector. That would only be possible with I-240 signed on all the Kilpatrick Turnpike. That way "I-640" could begin on I-240/Airport Road, be signed over the Tri-City Connector going around Will Rogers Airport, overlap I-44 across the Canadian River and then be signed over the East to West Connector.

I personally wonder if the new turnpikes would be better received if they were marketed as "tornado evacuation routes" . Wording can drastically affect the public's opinion on a project.

When a tornado warning is issued the biggest piece of advice given to the public is to find safe shelter immediately. That doesn't mean hop in the car and contribute to a sudden traffic jam on a major highway. Being stuck in traffic on a super highway would be one of the most horrible places to be caught by a tornado.

If I know a storm dumping baseball size hail is going to be pounding Lawton 20 minutes from now I might be tempted to jump in my truck and try to drive out of the way of the storm's path.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 06, 2022, 11:56:09 AM
When a tornado warning is issued the biggest piece of advice given to the public is to find safe shelter immediately. That doesn't mean hop in the car and contribute to a sudden traffic jam on a major highway. Being stuck in traffic on a super highway would be one of the most horrible places to be caught by a tornado.

OKC has already had a very close near-miss (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_El_Reno_tornado#Evacuations) with this, with the 2013 El Reno tornado - the widest tornado on record and often considered one of the strongest tornadoes ever observed, which thankfully lifted right as it was about to enter the western OKC metro area.

QuoteAs the tornadoes approached the Oklahoma City metro, thousands of residents decided to leave the area for safety, possibly due to the still fresh memories of the devastation caused by the EF5 tornado that struck Moore on May 20. Already congested with rush hour traffic, Interstates 35, 40, 44 and 240, became "parking lots" as the storms neared. Residents reported the highways to be a scene of chaos, "people were going southbound in the northbound lanes. Everybody was running for their lives." It has been suggested that the evacuation was partially caused by a controversial call to action on-air by KFOR-TV chief meteorologist Mike Morgan, who suggested on-air during coverage of the storm — as the tornado was projected to track into Oklahoma City — that residents without underground storm shelters or safe rooms get into their cars and evacuate south of the track. This advice was contrary to the recommended plan to go to an interior room, bathtub or closet with no windows if no basement or other underground shelter is available. These locations are typically much safer than an automobile in tornadic winds. Dr. Jeff Masters of Weather Underground stated that had the tornado tracked directly over one of the congested highways, the death toll could have easily exceeded 500.

I remember watching that event live and immediately thinking "Morgan is gonna get people killed with this" and deciding then and there not to take KFOR seriously for anything ever again. KFOR is also responsible for the "ain't nobody got time for that" meme, which, while it's hilarious and I love it, really, that was the eyewitness interview you wanted to run? KFOR is a bunch of clowns. So keep that in mind when you see a KFOR link in this thread (there have been a few).

Quote from: US 89OKC has already had a very close near-miss with this, with the 2013 El Reno tornado - the widest tornado on record and often considered one of the strongest tornadoes ever observed, which thankfully lifted right as it was about to enter the western OKC metro area.

The May 2013 Moore Tornado mentioned in the quote was a twister strong enough it would have been rated an F-5 on the old Fujita scale. It touched down in Newcastle and immediately turned into a monster. Its first impressive act was wiping out part of the old truss railroad bridge next to I-44 on the Canadian River. Entire neighborhoods worth of homes were totally demolished farther East. You can see the devastation along almost all the tornado's path in Google Earth within the historical imagery slider, just scroll it to 5/2013. Almost everything has been re-built (and then some) since then.

I'll never forget the May 3, 1999 tornado. That was a true F-5 with the highest wind speeds ever recorded in a tornado, over 300mph. The path where it crossed I-44 South of Newcastle was quite remarkable. It's as if the tornado acted like a bulldozer, removing all the grass and a lot of top-soil. Moore got badly hit by that one too. That same tornadic super-cell utterly destroyed the outlet mall in Stroud farther east. Nearly 23 years later the concrete slab is all that remains of that place. Maybe the OK State government should consider turning that into a memorial park dedicated to storm victims or something.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 06, 2022, 08:32:30 PM

Quote from: US 89OKC has already had a very close near-miss with this, with the 2013 El Reno tornado - the widest tornado on record and often considered one of the strongest tornadoes ever observed, which thankfully lifted right as it was about to enter the western OKC metro area.

The May 2013 Moore Tornado mentioned in the quote was a twister strong enough it would have been rated an F-5 on the old Fujita scale. It touched down in Newcastle and immediately turned into a monster. Its first impressive act was wiping out part of the old truss railroad bridge next to I-44 on the Canadian River.

No, that was never a RR bridge. It was US62/US277 from the time it was built about 1929 until the HE Bailey connector was opened in 1964. They left it standing because it carried utilities.

I don't know why I always thought that was an out of service railroad bridge, even when it was 100% intact. It's probably from seeing so many other railroad bridges across rivers having heavy truss structures like that one. But, yeah, seeing that bridge going back to the 1980's I thought it originally carried railroad traffic.

I didn't even realize this had to make it out of the transportation committee but news 9 isn't exactly known for having the best reporting. I am not quite understanding what is happening here. Are these bills the ones being proposed to stop this project or are they something that is necessary for the projects to proceed?

https://www.news9.com/story/624f62c7e725bc070c098db6/turnpike-project-approval-delayed-in-transportation-committee-

From The News Also:

Quote

Wallace, did not return multiple calls for comment, but in presenting his bill on the House floor, he predicted there will be a time when the turnpike expansion near Arcadia will be necessary.

Citing growth and the sprawl of development from Oklahoma County, Wallace said he filed the bill after having conversations with turnpike authority representatives.

Wallace also noted the public outcry about the construction of the Kickapoo Turnpike in eastern Oklahoma County and said he wants to see the OTA start the planning for this route as soon as possible should his bill become law.

I think it’s wise to go ahead and plan for the future, and to go ahead and start lining out the route, acquiring the right of way before any more development occurs in the next however many years before they actually decide to break ground,” he said.

The OTA, which has promised to be transparent with ACCESS Oklahoma, declined a request by The Oklahoman to detail Echelle’s response to Wallace’s push for the Arcadia area turnpike or his request for quick acquisition of right-of-way.

During his introduction of the bill, Wallace said he doesn’t see the turnpike coming to fruition in the next 15 years. He expects the work won’t start until after the OTA completes the ACCESS Oklahoma plan. He said by setting the route now, the OTA won’t have to disrupt as much development down the line.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 07, 2022, 08:41:24 PM
I didn't even realize this had to make it out of the transportation committee but news 9 isn't exactly known for having the best reporting. I am not quite understanding what is happening here. Are these bills the ones being proposed to stop this project or are they something that is necessary for the projects to proceed?

https://www.news9.com/story/624f62c7e725bc070c098db6/turnpike-project-approval-delayed-in-transportation-committee-

Yes, the Legislature has to put authorizations for each in law.  Doesn't mean they will ever be built (see Duncan to Davis, Okarche to Watonga, etc.) but they can't be built without the authorizations.

Quote from: News9 Article"In the situation where you have 500 to 700 homes being eliminated and there's only 70 some housing houses for sale in Norman, then that ought to send a red flag,"  Boren said.

Where the hell did Mayor Boren come up with that 500-700 homes number? Has she ever driven along West Indian Hills Road to see what's actually built there? Between I-44 and I-35 the biggest impact to property would be over in Newcastle with the cluster of industrial buildings next to the OK-37/I-44 interchange. The rest of that segment is vacant except for a couple properties. Along the entire proposed East to West connector path it doesn't look like more than a couple dozen properties would be affected (mainly East of I-35). The South extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike wouldn't affect many properties either.

I think the OTA has picked pretty much the best possible paths for both turnpikes. It would be a real shame if the state government blocked them from getting built.

Boren is a state senator, not a mayor.

My mistake. Still, where did Senator Boren get that 500-700 homes number? That's really severe misinformation.

I guess she's counting on a lot of Oklahomans being really bad at geography and not bothering to look at a resource like Google Earth to see what properties are actually located within the proposed turnpike path. Otherwise her statement would be flat out gaslighting.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 08, 2022, 08:20:55 PM
I guess she's counting on ... being really bad at geography ... not bothering to look at a resource ...

Two safe things to count on, no matter what state it's in.

Americans taking something a politician says at face value, because it matches how they already feel about something, and not doing the due diligence to determine whether it's actually true or not? Shocking!

Americans being both gullible as hell and addicted to biased outrage could lead to our democracy being replaced with a totalitarian dictatorship. The general public will willingly, foolishly let it happen.

Still, one might think the residents of Norman and Moore might be familiar enough with W Indian Hills Road to already know hardly anything is built alongside it. Then again, I don't think all the residents of Norman and Moore are being heard regarding the topic. Only the anti-turnpike people appear to have a voice in this matter. I keep thinking about what Gene Love, Chairman of the OTA board told me: there is a lot of people who want these two turnpikes to get built.

Quote from: News9 Article"In the situation where you have 500 to 700 homes being eliminated and there's only 70 some housing houses for sale in Norman, then that ought to send a red flag,"  Boren said.

She's only one of many who have thrown so-called facts out there with absolutely no support for them. The opponents' goal is to enflame the voting population. If they have to exaggerate or lie to get what they want, so be it.

From The Daily Oklahoman And Allegedly The Associated Press:

Quote

Sen. Rob Standridge, R-Norman, said he doesn't have a strong opinion on the bill yet because it doesn't affect his district. But the chairman of the Senate Transportation Committee said the legislation likely deserves additional scrutiny in light of some local opposition to the ACCESS Oklahoma turnpike expansion.

"I'll look at that closer based on what I've been seeing in Cleveland County,"  Standridge said. "We kind of look in the rearview mirror now and wonder did we do the right thing?"

Is OTA lacking transparency in turnpike plans?

When the OTA unveiled ACCESS Oklahoma in February, officials promised to be transparent in their planning efforts and indeed have met several times with groups of concerned property owners.

But they have been less communicative on the Arcadia-area turnpike, saying it is not part of any formal planning by the turnpike authority.

Oklahoma County District 1 Commissioner Carrie Blumert, who represents the area detailed in HB 4088, was unaware of the proposal or the bill when contacted by The Oklahoman. Prior to her election as commissioner, the turnpike authority acquired properties to make way for the Kickapoo Turnpike.

"There were a lot of concerned citizens,"  Blumert said. "I would expect a similar response with any new turnpike. As a representative for the area, I would love to hear about it. If residents call my office or I hear about it while out in the district, I would want to know about it."

Rosecrants believes bi-partisan support is building to rein in the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority and improve oversight of its expansion efforts.

Quote from: In_Correct on April 09, 2022, 01:36:05 PM

From The Daily Oklahoman And Allegedly The Associated Press:

Quote

Sen. Rob Standridge, R-Norman, said he doesn't have a strong opinion on the bill yet because it doesn't affect his district. But the chairman of the Senate Transportation Committee said the legislation likely deserves additional scrutiny in light of some local opposition to the ACCESS Oklahoma turnpike expansion.

"I'll look at that closer based on what I've been seeing in Cleveland County,"  Standridge said. "We kind of look in the rearview mirror now and wonder did we do the right thing?"

Is OTA lacking transparency in turnpike plans?

When the OTA unveiled ACCESS Oklahoma in February, officials promised to be transparent in their planning efforts and indeed have met several times with groups of concerned property owners.

But they have been less communicative on the Arcadia-area turnpike, saying it is not part of any formal planning by the turnpike authority.

Oklahoma County District 1 Commissioner Carrie Blumert, who represents the area detailed in HB 4088, was unaware of the proposal or the bill when contacted by The Oklahoman. Prior to her election as commissioner, the turnpike authority acquired properties to make way for the Kickapoo Turnpike.

"There were a lot of concerned citizens,"  Blumert said. "I would expect a similar response with any new turnpike. As a representative for the area, I would love to hear about it. If residents call my office or I hear about it while out in the district, I would want to know about it."

Rosecrants believes bi-partisan support is building to rein in the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority and improve oversight of its expansion efforts.

I went back and looked at the announcement and see no reference to an Arcadia-area turnpike . What are they referring to? The Kickapoo is a Luther-area pike.

Someone filed a bill seeking to authorize a loop from the northern terminus of the Kickapoo back to I-35. This seems to be an initiative of the individual lawmaker involved and not something OTA wants. (The way the northern terminus of the Kickapoo is built, it's clear they weren't intending to extend it north anytime soon.

I wouldn't say the Northern terminus of the Kickapoo Turnpike at I-44 was built without future expansion in mind. The trumpet interchange could be converted into a cloverleaf or something better without much trouble. If the Kickapoo Turnpike was extended North it would have to shift to the East of Luther and then go Northward.

The mention of Arcadia in that one proposal makes no sense. Arcadia is due West of Luther. The Kickapoo Turnpike would literally have to make a hard left immediately North of I-44 to go thru Arcadia, the actual small town on OK-66. A proper North extension would go well North of there before turning left toward I-35.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 09, 2022, 07:02:44 PM
I wouldn't say the Northern terminus of the Kickapoo Turnpike at I-44 was built without future expansion in mind. The trumpet interchange could be converted into a cloverleaf or something better without much trouble. If the Kickapoo Turnpike was extended North it would have to shift to the East of Luther and then go Northward.

Right, but if you look at the southern terminus of the Kickapoo, it was clearly intended to tie into a further extension at some point. If OTA had planned for a northern extension, you'd see something like that teeing out at NE 178th Street.

I think the OTA's use of a relatively cheap trumpet interchange design on the North end of the Kickapoo Turnpike leaves just as much room for an extension. They could have built a stub just North to NE 178th Street, but that road is less than half a mile from the I-44 interchange. An exit there, so close to I-44, might lead to some bad traffic weaving conflicts. If the Kickapoo Turnpike was extended North of I-44 I'm pretty sure the next exit would be one at OK-66, another mile North.

Steve Lackmeyer Contributed To This Article:

Quote

Rosecrants joined fellow Norman lawmaker Merleyn Bell in an unsuccessful attempt to amend HB 4088 to stop construction of the Norman area turnpikes.

"I have sympathy with the emotion of what's going on in Norman and Moore,"  Wallace responded at the time. "My bill has nothing to do with that."  

Although he acknowledged HB 4088 is unrelated to the ACCESS Oklahoma plan, Rosecrants, an outspoken critic of the Norman turnpike expansion, was among a bipartisan group of lawmakers to oppose the bill. He's also hoping to keep opposition to the Norman turnpike expansion in the spotlight.

Rosecrants said he has already talked to Luther residents who are concerned about whether they could be targeted for a turnpike should HB 4088 becomes law.

"We're hoping maybe a lot of other folks from other areas besides Norman will unite against this, too,"  Rosecrants said. "I think they (OTA) have way too much power."

Steve Lackmeyer started at The Oklahoman in 1990. He is an award-winning reporter, columnist and author who covers downtown Oklahoma City, urban development and economics for The Oklahoman. Contact him at slackmeyer @ oklahoman . com . Please support his work and that of other Oklahoman journalists by purchasing a subscription today at subscribe.oklahoman.com.

I had always thought the Kickapoo turnpike would be extended north one day but perhaps the OTA didn't want to generate more controversy so kept that off the table for now.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 10, 2022, 01:17:43 PM
I had always thought the Kickapoo turnpike would be extended north one day but perhaps the OTA didn't want to generate more controversy so kept that off the table for now.

I kinda figured it would end up south of Stillwater as a relief route of 35 through OKC.

Quote from: In_Correct on April 10, 2022, 05:58:25 AM
Steve Lackmeyer Contributed To This Article:

well that's unfortunate

Quote
"We're hoping maybe a lot of other folks from other areas besides Norman will unite against this, too,"  Rosecrants said. "I think they (OTA) have way too much power."

Way too much power...?! They can literally only build roads the Legislature allows them to build!

(https://i.imgur.com/ueqNE4G.png)

Quote from: TXtoNJ on April 10, 2022, 02:37:34 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 10, 2022, 01:17:43 PM
I had always thought the Kickapoo turnpike would be extended north one day but perhaps the OTA didn't want to generate more controversy so kept that off the table for now.

I kinda figured it would end up south of Stillwater as a relief route of 35 through OKC.

Geez, do you realize how far north Stillwater is?! That would be like 50 miles of redundant freeway. There's zero need for that north of Guthrie.

Quote from: TXtoNJ on April 10, 2022, 02:37:34 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 10, 2022, 01:17:43 PM
I had always thought the Kickapoo turnpike would be extended north one day but perhaps the OTA didn't want to generate more controversy so kept that off the table for now.

I kinda figured it would end up south of Stillwater as a relief route of 35 through OKC.

I heard somewhere the long range plan is for it to bend to the west north of Luther and join I35 just north of Waterloo Road.

If they ever do extend the Kickapoo Turnpike North to connect into I-35 I think they'll have to make the connection farther North than Waterloo Road. Quite a few homes have been built off of Waterloo Road within the last 20 years. I think a connection into I-35 would have to be made 4-5 miles farther North where there isn't so much development in the way. That's getting pretty close to Guthrie.

Another idea would be tying the North end of a Kickapoo Turnpike extension into the South Division Street interchange with I-35 on the South side of Guthrie. That existing "Y" interchange could be converted into a directional stack.

As for Rosencrant's suggestion Luther could be adversely impacted by a North extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike, that is yet another example of someone counting on people not bothering to look at a map. There is plenty of empty, undeveloped land on the East side of Luther where a turnpike extension could be built. It's not like the OTA would try to barrel it straight up over Ash Street through the middle of town.

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 10, 2022, 03:44:11 PM

Quote from: In_Correct on April 10, 2022, 05:58:25 AM
Steve Lackmeyer Contributed To This Article:

well that's unfortunate

Quote
"We're hoping maybe a lot of other folks from other areas besides Norman will unite against this, too,"  Rosecrants said. "I think they (OTA) have way too much power."

Way too much power...?! They can literally only build roads the Legislature allows them to build!

(https://i.imgur.com/ueqNE4G.png)

Quote from: TXtoNJ on April 10, 2022, 02:37:34 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 10, 2022, 01:17:43 PM
I had always thought the Kickapoo turnpike would be extended north one day but perhaps the OTA didn't want to generate more controversy so kept that off the table for now.

I kinda figured it would end up south of Stillwater as a relief route of 35 through OKC.

Geez, do you realize how far north Stillwater is?! That would be like 50 miles of redundant freeway. There's zero need for that north of Guthrie.

Oh I know. I also know that efficiency isn't in the top 5 of reasons highways get built in Oklahoma.

The K.W.T.V. Article:

https://www.news9.com/story/624f62c7e725bc070c098db6/turnpike-project-approval-delayed-in-transportation-committee-

Quote

Turnpike Project Approval Delayed In Transportation Committee

Join the conversation ( )
Thursday, April 7th 2022, 6:02 pm
By: Storme Jones

OKLAHOMA CITY - State Senator Mary Boren, D-Norman, filed an amendment to the bill authorizing $5 billion work of turnpike projects across the state Thursday.
Her amendment would have pulled the Cleveland County construction off the list of approved projects.

Senate Transportation Committee Chairman and fellow Norman Senator Rob Standridge pulled the entire bill approving projects across the state late Thursday afternoon.

"In the situation where you have 500 to 700 homes being eliminated and there's only 70 some housing houses for sale in Norman, then that ought to send a red flag,"  Boren said.

In a statement after the plan was announced, the Turnpike Author said they "selected alignments and connections to existing infrastructure that are the least impactful to homeowners, business owners and the environment."  

"The value of a long-range plan like ACCESS Oklahoma is that, in many circumstances, it provides us time to work more transparently, thoroughly and thoughtfully with affected property owners," the agency said in a statement. 

"Well, it's frustrating for them to say, "˜It's not that bad,'"  Boren said. ""˜It's not as bad as it looks' is what they're saying, but they're not giving you any concrete numbers or plan for what the toll will be,"  Boren said. 

Asked why he pulled the authorization bill, Standridge said he had just decided to not have a vote Thursday without giving specifics.

The deadline for the bill to pass out of committee is April 14. 

Quote from: State Senator Mary Boren, from KWTV article"Well, it's frustrating for them to say, "˜It's not that bad,'"  Boren said. ""˜It's not as bad as it looks' is what they're saying, but they're not giving you any concrete numbers or plan for what the toll will be,"  Boren said.

That's opposed to her wildly exaggerated claim 500-700 homes could be razed to make room for the turnpikes. It's par for the course for newspapers and TV stations to not bother pointing out the doom and gloom exaggeration; they love anything that will fire up the audience's emotions. It's great for boosting ratings and generating ad sales. Reps from the OTA could at least counter that exaggeration by telling everyone to look at a map and see just how few properties are in the paths of the proposed turnpikes.

Currently there isn't much built in the areas where the turnpikes are proposed. But that is going to change. If the politicians succeed in blocking the Access Oklahoma plan that will be the end of it for good. I'm sure West Indian Hills Road will get covered up in new residential and commercial development within the next 10-20 years. Areas around Lake Thunderbird could fill in more as well.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 08, 2022, 11:36:41 PM
addicted to biased outrage

Indeed I have observed a bit of this around the forum over the years as folks post links to media that is against some project and it's posted in the context of "Get a load of this! Look at what these idiots are saying!"  A small scale example of how controversy generates attention.

In a case like this Oklahoma thing, I have to wonder if OTA went for the largest possible vision for ACCESS so that they can give up some of this proposed mileage in negotiations and "settle" for the facilities they actually want.  Facilities that would have received an equal amount of push-back anyway, so if they ask for more than they want, the compromise becomes the secretly preferred scope.

One sees this kind of thing all the time in politics (well, we used to.)
Politician A: "We didn't get everything we wanted, but it's a great start."
Politician B: "We successfully reigned in their wild ideas and saved you money or whatever."

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 11, 2022, 10:51:54 AM

Quote from: State Senator Mary Boren, from KWTV article"Well, it's frustrating for them to say, "˜It's not that bad,'"  Boren said. ""˜It's not as bad as it looks' is what they're saying, but they're not giving you any concrete numbers or plan for what the toll will be,"  Boren said.

That's opposed to her wildly exaggerated claim 500-700 homes could be razed to make room for the turnpikes. It's par for the course for newspapers and TV stations to not bother pointing out the doom and gloom exaggeration; they love anything that will fire up the audience's emotions. It's great for boosting ratings and generating ad sales. Reps from the OTA could at least counter that exaggeration by telling everyone to look at a map and see just how few properties are in the paths of the proposed turnpikes.

There's also been this reluctance in the media over the past few decades to avoid calling bullshit on anything, out of the pathological desire to appear fair to both sides. This is good when both sides are acting honestly and merely have a disagreement on priorities or values, but it starts to break down when it turns into "One side says the sky is blue, the other side says the sky is green, we report, you decide!" It's intellectually lazy reporting.

Of course, people should do enough due diligence to debunk lies themselves instead of just taking everything they see at face value, but...they don't. And in some cases they can't, since they can't get any context for a statement outside of the reporting. In this case, one can take the Access Oklahoma maps and compare them to satellite imagery and count the number of homes that could be demolished themselves. But that's not always the case. If someone is arguing against a bill using fabricated numbers about how much it will cost, for instance...

Since they have been designating pre-existing routes with state highway numbers with a three in the one-hundreds column, if the Kickapoo Turnpike is ever extended northward or southward, they should probably designate it OK 335. The existing Kickapoo Turnpike could have a joint Interstate 240/OK 335 co-designation.

Hello I am new here been a fan of this site for a long time and finally decided to join in the discussion.

So here is my thoughts... Does anyone think that the Kickapoo from I-44 to the south to the proposed E-W Connector will be the new I-44. It would make since because they have signed the exit numbers on the Kickapoo to I-44. Where I-44 bypasses Oklahoma City. And the proposed E-W Connector will be going to Tri-City area. So essentially making I-44 to the east and south of the metro. 

Make I-240 What they proposed with the exception of the kickapoo turnpike. So Airport Road, JKT and Turner. Take the current I-44 Alignment in OKC and make it another interstate or a State highway Loop.

Or make I-240 alignment the same prior to 1982. Where it looped around the city on present day I-44.

Hard to tell what ODOT and OTA are thinking at times.


Also does anyone know when the 240 signs will be up? Do we know where the process is? Did the FHA and AASHTO approve it yet? Timeline?

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 11, 2022, 06:32:27 PM
There's also been this reluctance in the media over the past few decades to avoid calling bullshit on anything, out of the pathological desire to appear fair to both sides. This is good when both sides are acting honestly and merely have a disagreement on priorities or values, but it starts to break down when it turns into "One side says the sky is blue, the other side says the sky is green, we report, you decide!" It's intellectually lazy reporting.

Nah.  What actually makes the news is a reporter talking to a single mother, who's working two jobs, whose beloved cat just died, who claims that a different sky color would give her a leg up in life and provide her the opportunity to go back to school and finally get that nursing degree she's always wanted.  "Well, we just heard one example of how the government's stubborn unwillingness to change the color of the sky is affecting real people's everyday lives."

Quote from: jdingusSo here is my thoughts... Does anyone think that the Kickapoo from I-44 to the south to the proposed E-W Connector will be the new I-44.

No. I-44 will remain designated in its current location thru OKC. It would actually be incredibly disruptive to move the I-44 designation. Many businesses and other kinds of organizations would have to change their advertising materials and update any other documents referring to the road. Plus, the original design of the Interstate highway system called for the main line 2-digit routes to run through cities and have 3-digit routes work as bypasses. Obviously there are many exceptions to that design policy.

If the Kickapoo Turnpike extension and East-West Connector are built and the opportunity is there for Interstate designations both would likely get 3-digit route designations.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 12, 2022, 01:59:09 PM

Quote from: jdingusSo here is my thoughts... Does anyone think that the Kickapoo from I-44 to the south to the proposed E-W Connector will be the new I-44.

No. I-44 will remain designated in its current location thru OKC. It would actually be incredibly disruptive to move the I-44 designation. Many businesses and other kinds of organizations would have to change their advertising materials and update any other documents referring to the road. Plus, the original design of the Interstate highway system called for the main line 2-digit routes to run through cities and have 3-digit routes work as bypasses. Obviously there are many exceptions to that design policy.

If the Kickapoo Turnpike extension and East-West Connector are built and the opportunity is there for Interstate designations both would likely get 3-digit route designations.

I would bet they will be I-440 and I-640. And I would be shocked if these turnpikes are not built as indicated today.

This is all a done deal. We are just in the crying and moaning part of the process. The local pols need to create a show proving that they are "doing something" for the small but vocal minority of residents who are upset. I would also guess that a good majority of Norman residents are actually in favor of the highways and the politicians know that too. I doubt any of the politicians even intend their little show to be successful.

Quote from: swakeI would bet they will be I-440 and I-640. And I would be shocked if these turnpikes are not built as indicated today.

If those turnpikes are built the odds are highest they'll be given Oklahoma state highway OK-3XX designations. I think Interstate designations are a long shot really. Even if the existing portion of the Kickapoo Turnpike was given an I-240 designation (as has been authorized) there is still a good chance the OTA would leave it unsigned.

It's a huge stretch calling the existing Kickapoo segment "I-240," and the designation no longer works if the turnpike could be extended down to Purcell and I-35. In that case an I-x35 designation (such as I-835) would make more sense. It could still be possible to label the East-West Connector as "I-640," but that would only work if the Tri-City Connector around Will Rogers Airport was also labeled I-640 and it overlapped with I-44 over the Canadian River.

Quote from: swakeThis is all a done deal. We are just in the crying and moaning part of the process.

Not really. Governor Stitt is reportedly still in favor of the Access Oklahoma plan. But if the state legislature builds up enough "no" votes they could effectively block it. The bill to authorize the turnpikes has to be able to make it out of the committee level by this Thursday. Otherwise the plan is finished.

I doubt any new Interstates will be designated in Oklahoma outside of the proposed US 412 Interstate upgrade (that includes extending Interstate 45 from Dallas into Oklahoma). Personally, I think the Kickapoo Turnpike should not become part of Interstate 240, which is why I suggested the Kickapoo receive the OK 335 designation (I have no problem with the 240 designation being added to the John Kilpatrick Turnpike, the alternative would be to possibly number it OK 340). If a new Interstate 40 3di were ever proposed (which seems unlikely), I'd number it 440 instead of 640.

With Oklahoma being in the central part of the US, and arguably at a major hub point in the nation's highway system, the state has a lot of possible future super highway corridors. It's another matter getting Interstate designations if they were ever built, although the "bait" of a future Interstate designation might get communities interested in economic growth opportunity more excited.

The problem is every one of the possible future Interstates in Oklahoma has obstacles. US-412 doesn't have a clear shot at being upgraded. With the possibility the very major "I-50" designation could be burnt on such a short, relatively minor route I'm not even sure I want it upgraded. The only thing more shameless would be some politician trying to call it "Interstate 1." The egos of many politicians know no limits. I really want to see I-45 extended up US-69 to Big Cabin, but we all know the obstacles blocking it in a couple of aging, tiny towns. I think Denver-OKC is a huge missing link in the national scope of the highway system, but it's not on the radar scopes of ODOT. Colorado seems to be doing as little as it can with its highways, never mind building a new super highway corridor. And now we have the NIMBYs and New Urbanist types raising hell about the Access Oklahoma plan.

What 3 digit designation is the Gilcrease Expressway going to get? If the OK-344 designation doesn't get used there I think it would alright to use that on the Kickapoo Turnpike if the Kickapoo Turnpike never gets extended South of I-40. If the Kickapoo Turnpike does end up extended down to Purcell then the OK-335 marker would be better.

I think I-640 would be fine for the East-West Connector, only if the Kilpatrick Turnpike is renamed I-240 and "I-640" starts at the Tri City Connector. Usually I-2XX and I-4XX designations are given to longer loop highways. I usually think of I-6XX routes as being connector routes like I-676 in Philadelphia, I-610 in New Orleans or I-670 in Columbus. There are full loop examples of I-6XX routes, but it seems like more of the full loop and half loop routes are I-2XX and I-4XX designations.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 12, 2022, 10:57:56 PM
What 3 digit designation is the Gilcrease Expressway going to get? If the OK-344 designation doesn't get used there...

The OK-344 designation has already been approved by the Transportation Commission for the Gilcrease.

So when are they going to sign I-240 on the JKT?

Quote from: jdingus on April 13, 2022, 11:06:03 AM
So when are they going to sign I-240 on the JKT?

I wonder if ODOT is rethinking this. Any reasonable person would.

Yeah, the I-240 announcement was made some time before Access Oklahoma was unveiled. Still, both efforts involve the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority. I'm sure the Access Oklahoma plan had been in development for quite some time before the OTA went public with it. Surely someone in the OTA privy to both efforts had to notice the idea of signing I-240 on the Kickapoo Turnpike wouldn't make any sense in light of Access Oklahoma plans. Yet the I-240/Kickapoo idea got floated anyway.

Quote from: jdingus on April 13, 2022, 11:06:03 AM
So when are they going to sign I-240 on the JKT?

Still waiting on FHWA as far as I know.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 13, 2022, 02:32:11 PM
Yeah, the I-240 announcement was made some time before Access Oklahoma was unveiled. Still, both efforts involve the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority. I'm sure the Access Oklahoma plan had been in development for quite some time before the OTA went public with it. Surely someone in the OTA privy to both efforts had to notice the idea of signing I-240 on the Kickapoo Turnpike wouldn't make any sense in light of Access Oklahoma plans. Yet the I-240/Kickapoo idea got floated anyway.

In a way it tested the waters concerning how broadly the FHWA would consider proposals

If the Interstate 240 beltway proposal is not approved, maybe the John Kilpatrick Turnpike could be numbered OK 352. Do the John Kilpatrick and Kickapoo Turnpikes really need to be a part of the Interstate system? It seems to me making the KT OK 340 and the JKT OK 352 would be in line with the recent designations of OK 301, OK 312, OK 344, OK 351, OK 364, and OK 375.

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 13, 2022, 10:05:53 PM
If the Interstate 240 beltway proposal is not approved, maybe the John Kilpatrick Turnpike could be numbered OK 352. Do the John Kilpatrick and Kickapoo Turnpikes really need to be a part of the Interstate system? It seems to me making the KT OK 340 and the JKT OK 352 would be in line with the recent designations of OK 301, OK 312, OK 344, OK 351, OK 364, and OK 375.

Ah, the tired old "nothing should ever have an Interstate shield" nonsense argument.

In the case of the Kilpatrick Turnpike, I have no problem with it being designated as I-240 along its entire length. For instance, Westbound motorists on I-44 coming into the North side of OKC would get a big hint via the I-240 shield that they can just keep going straight through the I-35 interchange and take the JKT as a faster connection to I-40 going West out of the OKC area.

I just don't like I-240 being signed on the Kickapoo Turnpike. It would be especially ridiculous if the South extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike was signed as I-240 as well. The whole route would be a spiral (or comma) shape. And I-35 would connect with it in three different places. The Kickapoo Turnpike needs only one route number on its entire length. OK-335 would be alright by me; so would I-835. No other I-835 exists elsewhere.

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2022, 10:12:03 PM

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 13, 2022, 10:05:53 PM
If the Interstate 240 beltway proposal is not approved, maybe the John Kilpatrick Turnpike could be numbered OK 352. Do the John Kilpatrick and Kickapoo Turnpikes really need to be a part of the Interstate system? It seems to me making the KT OK 340 and the JKT OK 352 would be in line with the recent designations of OK 301, OK 312, OK 344, OK 351, OK 364, and OK 375.

Ah, the tired old "nothing should ever have an Interstate shield" nonsense argument.

Still better than the tired old "all freeways should have an Interstate shield" nonsense argument.

Frankly, I don't care either way and feel whatever a state decides is good enough for me. I'll still figure it out.

Has there been any talk of I-235 being extended to JKT?

I wouldn't oppose an Interstate 235 designation extension to the John Kilpatrick Turnpike, but I highly doubt such an extension will ever be in the works. I think it is more likely that Interstate 444 will be signposted again in Tulsa (which also won't happen).

My final thoughts are they should just sign I-240 from the current east terminus at I-40 all the way through SW and NW OKC on the Kilpatrick and end it where it connects at I-35/I-44 junction near Edmond. Extend I-235 to the future I-240/Kilpatrick Turnpike. Sign the Kickapoo Turnpike as I-335 or I-635 and hopefully one day it'll connect at both north and south points on I-35.

The only other interstate I'd like to see in the state is one built from Texarkana to Limon going through OKC and the US-412 interstate conversion across the state. I'm not sure what those numbers will or should be other than I advocate for I-50 on US-412. I-45 should also be extended to Tulsa and maybe Bartlesville but that might be a bit much.

Quote from: Plutonic PandaMy final thoughts are they should just sign I-240 from the current east terminus at I-40 all the way through SW and NW OKC on the Kilpatrick and end it where it connects at I-35/I-44 junction near Edmond. Extend I-235 to the future I-240/Kilpatrick Turnpike. Sign the Kickapoo Turnpike as I-335 or I-635 and hopefully one day it'll connect at both north and south points on I-35.

If I-240 was signed over the Kilpatrick Turnpike then an extension of I-235 going North of the I-44 Interchange going up to Edmond shouldn't be any problem. If the I-240 re-naming happens to the Kilpatrick I would almost expect I-235 to be named on the Broadway Extension.

I wouldn't give the Kickapoo Turnpike an odd Interstate number however; it would need to be an even-numbered route with it connecting with Interstates at both ends. There's already a I-635 in DFW and not all that far North in Kansas City. Why add a third I-635 to that arrangement? If the Kickapoo Turnpike is ever fully extended down to Purcell and up to near Guthrie the entire route would be about 70 miles in length. That's a big enough half outer loop for a big "835" number.

Quote from: Plutonic PandaThe only other interstate I'd like to see in the metro is one built from Texarkana to Limon going through OKC and the US-412 interstate conversion across the state. I-45 should also be extended to Tulsa and maybe Bartlesville but that might be a bit much.

Denver-OKC-Texarkana would be a fairly major route. If such a thing was ever built I'm sure it would draw a lot of long-haul commercial traffic. It would be a direct gateway from the mountainous Northwest US down to the Deep South. The corridor would be more than just a Front Range Cities to Gulf Coast thing.

I still like the idea of I-45 going to Big Cabin. However, the US-75 corridor from Henryetta to Tulsa needs to be brought up to Interstate standards. Most of the road would be easy to upgrade. It's just the issue of Olkmulgee and a proper bypass needing to be built that could be a stumbling block. It's the same problem as Muskogee and US-69.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 14, 2022, 02:44:32 PM

Quote from: Plutonic PandaMy final thoughts are they should just sign I-240 from the current east terminus at I-40 all the way through SW and NW OKC on the Kilpatrick and end it where it connects at I-35/I-44 junction near Edmond. Extend I-235 to the future I-240/Kilpatrick Turnpike. Sign the Kickapoo Turnpike as I-335 or I-635 and hopefully one day it'll connect at both north and south points on I-35.

If I-240 was signed over the Kilpatrick Turnpike then an extension of I-235 going North of the I-44 Interchange going up to Edmond shouldn't be any problem. If the I-240 re-naming happens to the Kilpatrick I would almost expect I-235 to be named on the Broadway Extension.

I wouldn't give the Kickapoo Turnpike an odd Interstate number however; it would need to be an even-numbered route with it connecting with Interstates at both ends. There's already a I-635 in DFW and not all that far North in Kansas City. Why add a third I-635 to that arrangement? If the Kickapoo Turnpike is ever fully extended down to Purcell and up to near Guthrie the entire route would be about 70 miles in length. That's a big enough half outer loop for a big "835" number.

Quote from: Plutonic PandaThe only other interstate I'd like to see in the metro is one built from Texarkana to Limon going through OKC and the US-412 interstate conversion across the state. I-45 should also be extended to Tulsa and maybe Bartlesville but that might be a bit much.

Denver-OKC-Texarkana would be a fairly major route. If such a thing was ever built I'm sure it would draw a lot of long-haul commercial traffic. It would be a direct gateway from the mountainous Northwest US down to the Deep South. The corridor would be more than just a Front Range Cities to Gulf Coast thing.

I still like the idea of I-45 going to Big Cabin. However, the US-75 corridor from Henryetta to Tulsa needs to be brought up to Interstate standards. Most of the road would be easy to upgrade. It's just the issue of Olkmulgee and a proper bypass needing to be built that could be a stumbling block. It's the same problem as Muskogee and US-69.

Hmmmm I proposed I-635 just because I like I-635 in Dallas so much. The design is amazing. So that's my only argument for that lol

Regarding the Texarkana to Limon/Denver interstate I agree with you. I think if built as a toll free road it would generate waaaaaaay more traffic than people think.

Regarding the access Oklahoma projects, is this guy living under a rock!?

https://okcfox.com/news/local/oklahoma-turnpike-expansion-danny-sterling-cleveland-pottawatomie-denise-crosswhite-hader-kevin-stitt-steve-bashore-rarchar-tortorello-norman

Discussion of a Denver-OKC interstate moved to: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=27549.0

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 15, 2022, 04:27:08 PM
Discussion of a Denver-OKC interstate moved to: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=27549.0

Thanks I think I'm responsible for this going off topic my bad.

It should be illegal for an elected official to blatantly lie to the media. Start with fines, and when they do it a certain number of times, they lose their seat and a new election is held.

Good news: https://www.news9.com/story/62596be7356bcc7ecf906729/ota-says-turnpike-expansion-plans-likely-wont-change

Quote from: bugoIt should be illegal for an elected official to blatantly lie to the media. Start with fines, and when they do it a certain number of times, they lose their seat and a new election is held.

Hypocrisy is standard operating procedure for politicians. They'll openly lie and even try to gaslight the public. Meanwhile many of these same jerks are not very fond of the first amendment, wanting to pass laws to ban certain kinds of speech in schools and workplaces. I'm trying not to get political here. Still the hypocrisy of these so-called "lawmakers" is hard to tolerate.

Quote from: Plutonic PandaGood news: https://www.news9.com/story/62596be7356bcc7ecf906729/ota-says-turnpike-expansion-plans-likely-wont-change

I really wish the Oklahoma City media would actually look at the maps and see just how few homes and other properties will have to be cleared for the two new turnpikes in the OKC area. To me it looks like more businesses would be affected than home owners. I really think a lot of the people showing up to gripe at the public meetings are only doing so for ulterior motives. Not all have homes that are directly in the proposed ROW. I think a bunch are sounding off because they don't want a super highway running anywhere near their property (the NIMBY factor). Others may be showing up to complain because they have nothing better to do or want to get on TV or something.

The property owners that will have to move do have legit gripes though. It's not exactly easy or cheap to move to a new home these days. Housing availability is low. Prices are so high they're definitely in a bubble; they have no basis in reality with wages. Even rent prices have gone way up. Inflation on everything else is ratcheting up the pain index for consumers. I imagine it could be at least another year or two before OTA can start breaking ground on any of this stuff. That might leave enough time for this price bubble to correct itself. I just pray it doesn't take down the whole damned economy in the process.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 12, 2022, 10:57:56 PM
What 3 digit designation is the Gilcrease Expressway going to get? If the OK-344 designation doesn't get used there I think it would alright to use that on the Kickapoo Turnpike if the Kickapoo Turnpike never gets extended South of I-40. If the Kickapoo Turnpike does end up extended down to Purcell then the OK-335 marker would be better.

Giving Oklahoma City a x44 Interstate would be like tax cuts for the rich. Taking something from somebody who needs it and giving it to somebody who doesn't need it. Oklahoma City has 2 other 2 digit Interstates, and Tulsa just has one. Leave all the x44 numbers for places like Tulsa and Lawton that only have 1 2 digit Interstate.

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 14, 2022, 01:48:49 PM
I wouldn't oppose an Interstate 235 designation extension to the John Kilpatrick Turnpike, but I highly doubt such an extension will ever be in the works. I think it is more likely that Interstate 444 will be signposted again in Tulsa (which also won't happen).

When was I-444 signed in Tulsa?

Quote from: jdingus on April 14, 2022, 12:41:14 PM
Has there been any talk of I-235 being extended to JKT?

I have always thought it should extend to JKT at least.

Roadgeeks speculating over the possible future numbering of highways make me reach for my revolver.

Quote from: bugoWhen was I-444 signed in Tulsa?

The Inner Dispersal Loop around Downtown Tulsa has been un-signed I-444 for, well, as long as I can remember. Currently Google Earth shows I-444 icons on it. Maybe the icons will be removed tomorrow.

Quote from: SoonerCowboyI have always thought it should extend to JKT at least.

Technically the rules say Interstate highways are supposed to end at other highways in the national highway network. I think that means other Interstate highways or US highways. The Kilpatrick Turnpike has never carried a US Highway or Interstate Highway number. Under those rules an extension of I-235 up to the Kilpatrick Turnpike would not have been allowed. That's despite the fact the Broadway Extension freeway was pretty much completely re-built in the late 1990's. A bunch of it is newer and up to higher standards than parts of existing I-235.

Once the Kilpatrick Turnpike is given the I-240 designation an I-235 extension up Broadway Extension should be a rubber stamp kind of decision.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 16, 2022, 12:13:14 AM

Quote from: bugoWhen was I-444 signed in Tulsa?

The Inner Dispersal Loop around Downtown Tulsa has been un-signed I-444 for, well, as long as I can remember. Currently Google Earth shows I-444 icons on it. Maybe the icons will be removed tomorrow.

I wouldn't expect it to be removed soon, I-345 has been signed on google for MONTHS

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 16, 2022, 12:13:14 AM

Quote from: bugoWhen was I-444 signed in Tulsa?

The Inner Dispersal Loop around Downtown Tulsa has been un-signed I-444 for, well, as long as I can remember. Currently Google Earth shows I-444 icons on it. Maybe the icons will be removed tomorrow.

ODOT at one time had a few unsigned routes, both Federal and State. The Gilcrease stub running west from I44/I244 was unsigned OK12 (at least until the new part is finished). I was going to school in Tulsa when the IDL was built and Bugo is right, it has never been signed. Lincoln Blvd in OKC is OK0 (according to the various bid documents). There are others but I can't remember them right now.

Quote from: rte66man on April 17, 2022, 08:25:08 AM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 16, 2022, 12:13:14 AM

Quote from: bugoWhen was I-444 signed in Tulsa?

The Inner Dispersal Loop around Downtown Tulsa has been un-signed I-444 for, well, as long as I can remember. Currently Google Earth shows I-444 icons on it. Maybe the icons will be removed tomorrow.

ODOT at one time had a few unsigned routes, both Federal and State. The Gilcrease stub running west from I44/I244 was unsigned OK12 (at least until the new part is finished). I was going to school in Tulsa when the IDL was built and Bugo is right, it has never been signed. Lincoln Blvd in OKC is OK0 (according to the various bid documents). There are others but I can't remember them right now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsigned_Oklahoma_State_Highways

More Norman residents bitching about the turnpikes: https://okcfox.com/news/local/tensions-at-ota-public-meeting-in-norman-over-turnpike-expansions

The Poteau bypass and the Duncan bypass are both shown on the 2020 control section maps as highway "00".

Here is an archive (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1uaYGSkPMb4a41PsTVW8ITzKRD31NxVtV?usp=sharing) featuring Oklahoma control section map books that I have acquired that go back as far as 1956.  Enjoy.

Looks like the NIMBYs in Norman and Moore are coming out in full force. Does this mean the ACCESS Oklahoma plan may have to be scaled back?

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 20, 2022, 04:46:40 PM
Looks like the NIMBYs in Norman and Moore are coming out in full force. Does this mean the ACCESS Oklahoma plan may have to be scaled back?

Hopefully not.

QuoteWhile there has been a lot of push back, OTA says their set plans likely will not change.

https://www.news9.com/story/6260273b7843a9072281b817/ota-to-release-property-payment-information-regarding-past-expansions

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 20, 2022, 05:00:26 PM

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 20, 2022, 04:46:40 PM
Looks like the NIMBYs in Norman and Moore are coming out in full force. Does this mean the ACCESS Oklahoma plan may have to be scaled back?

Hopefully not.

QuoteWhile there has been a lot of push back, OTA says their set plans likely will not change.

https://www.news9.com/story/6260273b7843a9072281b817/ota-to-release-property-payment-information-regarding-past-expansions

That's a smart decision by OTA as long as the compensation is reasonable. Opponents will lose a lot of support if it looks like certain property owners are trying to gouge the state.

Anyone want a good laugh tonight? https://www.news9.com/story/62614e06fb6244070e0c0815/state-senator-seeks-audit-of-the-oklahoma-turnpike-authority-regarding-turnpike-expansion

I saw a similar story on our local news. State Senator Mary Boren doesn't think the OTA should be able to build any new turnpikes until they pay off all the bonds for existing turnpikes. I guess that would ban the practice of cross pledging. The idea isn't realistic considering the fact only 3 or 4 of Oklahoma's turnpikes generate a profit. Turnpikes like the H.E. Bailey and a few other more rural turnpikes don't generate enough toll revenue to pay for their construction and upkeep on their own. Being able to cross pledge the debt is literally what makes it possible to build those less traveled rural turnpikes. Profits from the Will Rogers and Turner Turnpikes basically subsidize the other turnpikes. Without the cross pledging policy I strongly doubt Lawton would have a super highway connection to OKC and Wichita Falls at all.

If fully built out, I would expect the extended Kickapoo Turnpike and East-to-West Connector between Moore and Norman to generate more than enough toll revenue to pay for themselves.

How are new roads going to be constructed if they are not toll roads? It's not like Oklahoma (or any other state) has limitless money to build new roads. Like Texas and Florida (and maybe Pennsylvania), Oklahoma is one of the few states that has gone the route of building new toll roads, so why shouldn't that continue?

In theory I support the idea behind making the roads free but with all things Oklahoma politics it's easy to talk and do things like dissolving the OTA and transfer ownership to ODOT but when it comes time to talk about how to pay for that I wonder where these lawmakers will be.

Plenty of politicians and other blow-hards in Oklahoma make all kinds of noise about removing the toll gates. But not a single damned one of them ever mention the enormous price hike on gasoline taxes that would follow the removal of those toll gates. The state's fuel taxes are still among the lowest in the country. We recently had the first gasoline tax price hike since the early 1990's. It was a modest bump, with most of the new revenue going to fund teacher pay raises (all because teachers in Oklahoma are among the worst paid in the nation and have been starting to leave in droves).

Still, I like the idea of the proposed new interchanges on the  H.E. Bailey Turnpike(I-44) and Indian Nation Turnpike (https://www.accessoklahoma.com/access-improvements).

[vimeo]https://vimeo.com/691432308[/vimeo]
[vimeo]https://vimeo.com/691432215[/vimeo]

They need to add an interchange at SH-76/Council Road

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 22, 2022, 11:21:13 AM
I saw a similar story on our local news. State Senator Mary Boren doesn't think the OTA should be able to build any new turnpikes until they pay off all the bonds for existing turnpikes. I guess that would ban the practice of cross pledging. The idea isn't realistic considering the fact only 3 or 4 of Oklahoma's turnpikes generate a profit. Turnpikes like the H.E. Bailey and a few other more rural turnpikes don't generate enough toll revenue to pay for their construction and upkeep on their own. Being able to cross pledge the debt is literally what makes it possible to build those less traveled rural turnpikes. Profits from the Will Rogers and Turner Turnpikes basically subsidize the other turnpikes. Without the cross pledging policy I strongly doubt Lawton would have a super highway connection to OKC and Wichita Falls at all.

If fully built out, I would expect the extended Kickapoo Turnpike and East-to-West Connector between Moore and Norman to generate more than enough toll revenue to pay for themselves.

I don't think the Legislature even has the power to make this change themselves. Cross-pledging was instituted by a State Question. I'm pretty sure that means it would require a State Question to abolish it.

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 22, 2022, 02:22:48 PM
How are new roads going to be constructed if they are not toll roads? It's not like Oklahoma (or any other state) has limitless money to build new roads. Like Texas and Florida (and maybe Pennsylvania), Oklahoma is one of the few states that has gone the route of building new toll roads, so why shouldn't that continue?

You think our Legislature ever considers the consequences of its actions?

Quote from: Scott5114You think our Legislature ever considers the consequences of its actions?

That's a rhetorical question, right?

With some of the hot button "law-making" they've been doing lately it could place Oklahoma at the risk of becoming a sausage festival state. Too many men, not enough women. Why would any women want to move to this state unless they were ultra-right in their politics? Women wanting to start families will find the school systems in many other states far more attractive. Single women wanting full control of their choices probably wouldn't want to move here either. Women are often not taken seriously in regard to their economic clout, but that clout is growing. 60% of college students in the US are women, yet women make up just a tiny bit over 50% of the US population.

A lot of my friends have had kids that have grown-up, gone to college, etc. Most of those kids have moved out of the state. They didn't just get the hell out of Lawton.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 22, 2022, 04:21:58 PM
Plenty of politicians and other blow-hards in Oklahoma make all kinds of noise about removing the toll gates. But not a single damned one of them ever mention the enormous price hike on gasoline taxes that would follow the removal of those toll gates. The state's fuel taxes are still among the lowest in the country. We recently had the first gasoline tax price hike since the early 1990's. It was a modest bump, with most of the new revenue going to fund teacher pay raises (all because teachers in Oklahoma are among the worst paid in the nation and have been starting to leave in droves).

Years ago I did an analysis of what it would take to remove tolls, retiring debt and also replacing the funds for maintenance and policing and it was a statewide tax increase of roughly eight cents per gallon for gas and diesel. Which would never fly. I'm sure it would be double or triple that amount now.

Of course, our Legislature is liable to just ban the tolls and then not raise the gas tax to make up for it. Then when the roads go to shit they shrug and laugh.

Quote from: swake on February 23, 2022, 01:54:49 PM

Quote from: FakeMikeMorgan on February 23, 2022, 09:53:26 AM
I was hoping the Kickapoo would be have it's junction with I-35 at Davis. Would have save about 20 miles of backtracking for those coming from DFW to Tulsa.

People going from Tulsa to Dallas take US-75/69, not I-35. Going through OKC adds 50 additional miles and about 30 minutes of travel time.

As of now yes. But if the Kickapoo was extended to Davis that would cut out the 50 miles of backtracking.

Quote from: FakeMikeMorgan on April 25, 2022, 06:05:01 PM

Quote from: swake on February 23, 2022, 01:54:49 PM

Quote from: FakeMikeMorgan on February 23, 2022, 09:53:26 AM
I was hoping the Kickapoo would be have it's junction with I-35 at Davis. Would have save about 20 miles of backtracking for those coming from DFW to Tulsa.

People going from Tulsa to Dallas take US-75/69, not I-35. Going through OKC adds 50 additional miles and about 30 minutes of travel time.

As of now yes. But if the Kickapoo was extended to Davis that would cut out the 50 miles of backtracking.

It's proposed as being extended to north of Purcell and I-35 area but I wouldn't be opposed to see the North Dallas Tollway extended to Davis at some point.

https://www.kgou.org/science-technology-and-environment/2022-04-25/access-turnpike-engineers-provide-timeline-for-environmental-impact-studies-address-water-pollution-concerns-for-oklahoma-turnpike-authority-project

The local NPR station interviewed the environmental impact contractors on the project.

If the Kickapoo Turnpike is merged into I-35 at Purcell there won't be any need to build it any farther South (such as extending it clear down to Davis). I think the spot the OTA has picked just North of Purcell is good enough. The next trick is extending it North of I-44 to merge back into I-35 somewhere near Guthrie. Then the turnpike will work very well as an I-35 bypass around OKC.

Regarding the Dallas North Tollway, ultimately it's either supposed to merge into US-75 on the North side of Sherman (just South of the Red River) or unceremoniously end at or just North of US-82 near Sherman. Those plans steer it well away from I-35.

It looks like the EIS process has projects like the Kickapoo Extension and East to West Connector starting construction in the 2024 time frame at the earliest. I'm hoping the OTA can start working on some of the more modest projects soon, like some of the new exits along I-44.

$200 million going towards getting these projects moving forward: https://okcfox.com/news/local/oklahoma-turnpike-authority-ota-finance-expansion-project-200-million-dollars-secretary-tim-gatz-norman

Some information has been updated which includes the cost estimates. The east to west connector which IIRC was estimated at 500 million is now estimated at 1.5 billion. That seems more accurate given the 5 stack at I-35 will likely cost at least half a billion alone.

https://www.accessoklahoma.com/east-west-connector

It's my favorite project and the most expensive of all of them including the Turner Widening.

More ridiculous and misinformed articles:

QuoteNORMAN – The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority may have exceeded its authority in planning new pay roads that would affect Norman, Noble and Slaughterville, a Norman lawmaker and attorneys representing OTA opponents said Friday.

Previously expressed local objections to new turnpike plans became even more pronounced after the OTA filed credit applications with the Council of Bond Oversight for $200 million to advance plans.

Attorneys for Norman homeowners and members of the nonprofit Pike Off OTA filed formal objections asserting the OTA's lack of legal authority to build turnpikes in the area. They also cautioned that planned new roadways would threaten the property and livelihoods of thousands of Oklahomans.

Attorneys Robert Norman and Elaine Dowling asked the Bond Oversight Council to suspend authorizing bonds or any other financing until a legal interpretation is rendered of statutes that the OTA claims authorize the project.

"The OTA may only construct and operate turnpikes in locations specifically authorized by statute. There are 35 possible turnpike locations specified in statute; however, the turnpike (that) Access Oklahoma would put through east Norman, Noble, and Slaughterville is not authorized by any of the 35 possibilities,"  Dowling said.

In a release, Norman also pointed out that the authorizing statute for an "East-West connector"  planned to run along the northern edge of Norman would be subject to specific bonding requirements put in place by the Legislature in 1987, and that the OTA's Access Oklahoma Plan would violate those requirements.

In a statement, state Sen. Mary Boren, D-Norman, said she hopes the Council of Bond Oversight will consider the legal defects in the OTA's request for funding.

"It's important that we demand that the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority obey statutory authority when asking to spend $5 billion over the next 15 years on projects that would displace thousands of Oklahomans and hundreds of homes and businesses,"  Boren said. "Before we start making plans to build new turnpikes, we need to make sure OTA is obeying the laws that give citizens reasonable notice of projects."

Boren has voiced her strong opposition in recent weeks to two proposed projects in her district. The first would be a 29-mile southern extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike running from I-40 in Oklahoma City to I-35 near Purcell, which would run through the eastern part of Norman as well as through other nearby communities. The other project would be a 28-mile outer loop east-to-west connector from the I-44 Tri-City area, which includes Newcastle, Blanchard, and Tuttle, then east to I-35 and then east to I-40, running through Moore and Norman.

Both are part of the 15-year, $5 billion turnpike expansion plan called ACCESS Oklahoma.

- https://journalrecord.com/2022/04/29/attorneys-norman-lawmaker-weigh-in-on-turnpike-plans/

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 01, 2022, 10:26:11 PM
More ridiculous and misinformed articles:

QuoteNORMAN – The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority may have exceeded its authority in planning new pay roads that would affect Norman, Noble and Slaughterville, a Norman lawmaker and attorneys representing OTA opponents said Friday.

Previously expressed local objections to new turnpike plans became even more pronounced after the OTA filed credit applications with the Council of Bond Oversight for $200 million to advance plans.

Attorneys for Norman homeowners and members of the nonprofit Pike Off OTA filed formal objections asserting the OTA's lack of legal authority to build turnpikes in the area. They also cautioned that planned new roadways would threaten the property and livelihoods of thousands of Oklahomans.

Attorneys Robert Norman and Elaine Dowling asked the Bond Oversight Council to suspend authorizing bonds or any other financing until a legal interpretation is rendered of statutes that the OTA claims authorize the project.

"The OTA may only construct and operate turnpikes in locations specifically authorized by statute. There are 35 possible turnpike locations specified in statute; however, the turnpike (that) Access Oklahoma would put through east Norman, Noble, and Slaughterville is not authorized by any of the 35 possibilities,"  Dowling said.

In a release, Norman also pointed out that the authorizing statute for an "East-West connector"  planned to run along the northern edge of Norman would be subject to specific bonding requirements put in place by the Legislature in 1987, and that the OTA's Access Oklahoma Plan would violate those requirements.

In a statement, state Sen. Mary Boren, D-Norman, said she hopes the Council of Bond Oversight will consider the legal defects in the OTA's request for funding.

"It's important that we demand that the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority obey statutory authority when asking to spend $5 billion over the next 15 years on projects that would displace thousands of Oklahomans and hundreds of homes and businesses,"  Boren said. "Before we start making plans to build new turnpikes, we need to make sure OTA is obeying the laws that give citizens reasonable notice of projects."

Boren has voiced her strong opposition in recent weeks to two proposed projects in her district. The first would be a 29-mile southern extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike running from I-40 in Oklahoma City to I-35 near Purcell, which would run through the eastern part of Norman as well as through other nearby communities. The other project would be a 28-mile outer loop east-to-west connector from the I-44 Tri-City area, which includes Newcastle, Blanchard, and Tuttle, then east to I-35 and then east to I-40, running through Moore and Norman.

Both are part of the 15-year, $5 billion turnpike expansion plan called ACCESS Oklahoma.

- https://journalrecord.com/2022/04/29/attorneys-norman-lawmaker-weigh-in-on-turnpike-plans/

Given that the OTA thread on OKC Talk is pretty dead, I'd imagine that this is small, relatively well-funded, loud, but ultimately ignorable opposition.

Quote from: TXtoNJ on May 02, 2022, 01:21:24 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 01, 2022, 10:26:11 PM
More ridiculous and misinformed articles:

QuoteNORMAN – The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority may have exceeded its authority in planning new pay roads that would affect Norman, Noble and Slaughterville, a Norman lawmaker and attorneys representing OTA opponents said Friday.

Previously expressed local objections to new turnpike plans became even more pronounced after the OTA filed credit applications with the Council of Bond Oversight for $200 million to advance plans.

Attorneys for Norman homeowners and members of the nonprofit Pike Off OTA filed formal objections asserting the OTA's lack of legal authority to build turnpikes in the area. They also cautioned that planned new roadways would threaten the property and livelihoods of thousands of Oklahomans.

Attorneys Robert Norman and Elaine Dowling asked the Bond Oversight Council to suspend authorizing bonds or any other financing until a legal interpretation is rendered of statutes that the OTA claims authorize the project.

"The OTA may only construct and operate turnpikes in locations specifically authorized by statute. There are 35 possible turnpike locations specified in statute; however, the turnpike (that) Access Oklahoma would put through east Norman, Noble, and Slaughterville is not authorized by any of the 35 possibilities,"  Dowling said.

In a release, Norman also pointed out that the authorizing statute for an "East-West connector"  planned to run along the northern edge of Norman would be subject to specific bonding requirements put in place by the Legislature in 1987, and that the OTA's Access Oklahoma Plan would violate those requirements.

In a statement, state Sen. Mary Boren, D-Norman, said she hopes the Council of Bond Oversight will consider the legal defects in the OTA's request for funding.

"It's important that we demand that the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority obey statutory authority when asking to spend $5 billion over the next 15 years on projects that would displace thousands of Oklahomans and hundreds of homes and businesses,"  Boren said. "Before we start making plans to build new turnpikes, we need to make sure OTA is obeying the laws that give citizens reasonable notice of projects."

Boren has voiced her strong opposition in recent weeks to two proposed projects in her district. The first would be a 29-mile southern extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike running from I-40 in Oklahoma City to I-35 near Purcell, which would run through the eastern part of Norman as well as through other nearby communities. The other project would be a 28-mile outer loop east-to-west connector from the I-44 Tri-City area, which includes Newcastle, Blanchard, and Tuttle, then east to I-35 and then east to I-40, running through Moore and Norman.

Both are part of the 15-year, $5 billion turnpike expansion plan called ACCESS Oklahoma.

- https://journalrecord.com/2022/04/29/attorneys-norman-lawmaker-weigh-in-on-turnpike-plans/

Given that the OTA thread on OKC Talk is pretty dead, I'd imagine that this is small, relatively well-funded, loud, but ultimately ignorable opposition.

That's the case for almost all highway expansion projects. The real killer is, with very few exceptions, cost.

^^^^ yeah but do other cities have a news network that just comes out with a new article every. Single. Fucking. Day about each person who might lose their home?

Here's another one: https://kfor.com/news/local/family-fears-planned-turnpike-will-cut-through-their-farmland/

Most of this crap is coming from KFOR. I'm actually considering calling them and asking them about this.

Do it. Let me know what sort of high and mighty response you get.

Bonus points if you can work the phrase "ain't nobody got time for that" into the conversation. (That meme also originated from KFOR.)

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 03, 2022, 10:54:49 PM
Do it. Let me know what sort of high and mighty response you get.

Bonus points if you can work the phrase "ain't nobody got time for that" into the conversation. (That meme also originated from KFOR.)

Lol. I remember seeing that on YouTube and realizing it was from KFOR.

I probably will tomorrow. I'm trying to think of how to word it so I don't sound like I am wanting an argument. That tends to be problematic with me.

From the Oklahoman:

QuotePike Off, a nonprofit formed to fight the $5 billion ACCESS Oklahoma toll road expansion plan, is seeking to block progress of a $200 million line of credit being sought by the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority to start engineering and property acquisition.

The Council of Bond Oversight, chaired by Oklahoma City broker Mark Beffort, is scheduled Wednesday to review the line of credit with Wells Fargo. The council also will be tasked with reviewing the Turnpike Authority's proposed $5 billion, 15-year ACCESS Oklahoma bond package.

In a lawsuit filed Monday in Cleveland County, attorneys Elaine Dowling and Robert Norman charge that much of the south extension turnpike that would connect to Interstate 35 in Purcell is not among 35 corridors approved by lawmakers in 1987. Lawmakers killed an effort by the Turnpike Authority to do such an extension when it was proposed in 1999.

OU professor Amy Cerato, a member of Pike Off, was among speakers at a rally held in March at the state Capitol.
Similar issues are raised with an east-west connector turnpike north of Norman. The lawsuit seeks an injunction by the court to require studies be completed before work begins and declaration that the south extension corridors are not allowed by statute.

"I don't believe Oklahoma Turnpike Authority should be moving forward with construction of either of the turnpikes that impact the city of Norman,"  Dowling said. "Neither turnpike is within their statutory authority. The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority may only build turnpikes authorized by the state Legislature and to do them as authorized."  

More:Homes, businesses in danger as legislator pushes for turnpike expansion near Lake Arcadia?

The legal filings also indicate the Turnpike Authority's application before the Council of Bond Oversight incorrectly indicates the work to be funded with the line of credit do not face any pending lawsuits.

Pike Off, a nonprofit opposing the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority's plans for new toll roads south of Oklahoma City, argues portions of the south extension shown in this map do not follow the authorized corridors listed in state statutes.
Transportation spokeswoman Brenda Perry confirmed the Turnpike Authority has received a copy of the petition and is evaluating it.

Beffort on Tuesday said he was studying the application but cautioned the counsel is not a legislative body that can decide if a turnpike should be built or whether a project should be financed.

"I don't anticipate us voting on the legitimacy of the turnpike,"  Beffort said. "Typically, our council will review the structure, make sure it's competitively bid, meets certain guidelines and meets all of the approval process."  


Lawyers for Pike Off argue the Council of Bond Oversight is tasked with determining whether debt is being incurred for authorized public functions or purposes and that the south extension turnpike is not authorized by statute and is not an authorized public function.

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The Turnpike Authority has yet to say how many homes will be acquired – by eminent domain, if necessary – to build the south extension turnpikes. A count by Pike Off shows more than 600 families will lose their homes. That count does not include dozens of rural and business properties also to be acquired.


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Michael Nash, president of Pike Off, said he wants to know whether the Turnpike Authority will slow down to wait for a ruling on the lawsuit or whether it will accelerate its work to "outpace the judicial system."  

"We are about to learn a lot about our state government tomorrow,"  Nash said. "We will learn how much the OTA cares about being faithful to Oklahoma Law. We will learn if the Council of Bond Oversight cares about making the decisions that are right, or making the decisions that are expected."  

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2022/05/04/oklahoma-turnpike-expansion-plan-financing-face-court-challenge/9630604002/

That figure of 600 homes lost is just plain bullshit. It's not difficult to compare the proposed paths of both the East to West Connector and the Southern extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike and then look at satellite imagery from Google Earth/Maps. There is not nearly that many homes in the paths of those two turnpikes.

I guess they make up that "600 homes" figure because it sounds so much more dire than (at most) a few dozen homes.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on May 04, 2022, 11:31:45 PM
That figure of 600 homes lost is just plain bullshit. It's not difficult to compare the proposed paths of both the East to West Connector and the Southern extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike and then look at satellite imagery from Google Earth/Maps. There is not nearly that many homes in the paths of those two turnpikes.

I guess they make up that "600 homes" figure because it sounds so much more dire than (at most) a few dozen homes.

Since when has any group opposing anything resorted to the truth?

Is there any footnote trail saying where the 600 figure actually came from?

Minor set back but hopefully the courts throw the lawsuits out: https://okcfox.com/news/local/ota-turnpike-vote-norman-pikeoff-project-roads-oklahoma-infrastructure-funding-bond-200-million-elaine-dowling-amy-cerato

Some good PR on this:

https://www.thelostogle.com/2022/05/05/lost-ogle-show-the-case-for-the-turnpike-w-ota-deputy-director-joe-echelle/

Well here's some more good news:

QuoteThe Oklahoma Turnpike Authority is proceeding with plans to begin work, including buying properties, for a disputed toll road expansion after being told it could not fund the work with a $200 million line of credit due to pending lawsuits.

The Turnpike Authority has yet to disclose how many properties will be acquired for its $5 billion ACCESS Oklahoma expansion plan, but plans show more than 600 homes will need to be acquired and destroyed just for extensions planned between south Oklahoma City and Norman.

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2022/05/07/oklahoma-turnpike-authority-toll-road-expansion-norman-okc-lawsuits/9674226002/

Quote from: kphoger on May 05, 2022, 08:04:08 PM
Is there any footnote trail saying where the 600 figure actually came from?

Here's a hyperlink quote from an Oklahoman article:

Quotebut plans show more than 600 homes will need to be acquired and destroyed just for extensions planned between south Oklahoma City and Norman.
https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2022/05/07/oklahoma-turnpike-authority-toll-road-expansion-norman-okc-lawsuits/9674226002/

If you click on that hyperlink(I don't know how to create a hyperlink embedded in text) it takes you to this article: https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2022/03/30/norman-oklahoma-turnpike-authority-residents-address-expansion-plan/7208064001/

In it, another hyperlink that's says this:

Quoteplans to destroy hundreds of homes to make way for new toll roads.

Click on that hyperlink it takes you to this article: https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2022/03/13/oklahoma-turnpike-authority-eminent-domain-powers-hard-challenge-ota-access-expansion/6940416001/

That says this

QuoteDozens, if not hundreds, of homeowners and businesses are likely to be displaced, forcibly if necessary, to make way for new turnpikes in south Oklahoma City, Norman and elsewhere despite assurances the roads are planned for largely undeveloped corridors.

You can't make this shit up. Top notch reporting there. Oh, and not a single shred of any sort of evidence to back up those numbers in any of those articles.

I think the '600' number was invented by Mary Boren and nobody has bothered to look into where she got it or if it's true or not. Because OKC media.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 07, 2022, 01:53:21 PM
(I don't know how to create a hyperlink embedded in text)

Like so:
[url=fttps://link.to.website.com/]Link text to be displayed goes here[/url]

^^^ thanks for that. I was sure it was something easy I was lazy to look it up lol.

So just a quick update to this and what I've found.

Since being VERY vocal about these projects I've received two death threats and probably had dozens if not many more people block me. The two groups I know of kicked me out or told me not to post again unless I had something to support their cause. I've been talking to one of the people on Facebook messenger, Micheal Nash who has made questionable claims but I'm engaging and arguing in good faith. I've even made a couple devils advocate arguments for him.

I've tried contacting KFOR. The news desk lady has transferred me to the news director twice. First last week he didn't return my call. Tried again today and it was a busy tone. I'll try again tomorrow.

Micheal Nash and others have made claims like over 600 homes destroyed, no environmental studies being done, anger over no long term planning, and the lack of evidence to show these roads are needed. All of these points are either malarkey, knee jerking fear mongering, or borderline untruthful and I'll explain why based on what I've discovered.

1, regarding the 600+ homes issue. My guess is they took the map showing the potential routes and looked at all the homes inside the shaded area. I don't have my computer with me at the moment just my mobile phone and I'm not going to count every property in the shaded area, but it isn't hard to see that you could probably come up with a couple hundred properties, commercial and residential, for the 3 new proposed turnpikes in the south metro. I wouldn't be surprised if they went over every building that was in the shaded area in the entire plan and came up with the 600 number as I could believe that.

For the sake of argument let's say there are 600 homes in the shaded areas for the south OKC turnpikes, the final proposed ROW will be anywhere from 300-600 feet at the most and what's shown is a 1500 foot wide corridor where final alignments will be chosen. So there's no real way to tell how many homes and buildings will be needed. It wouldn't entirely be bad to say a few hundred properties may be needed but throw 600 number out there and not even add a disclaimer that it likely won't be near this much or these numbers are going to be refined is bad reporting. KFOR and NewsOk are the main culprits. Steve plays the part of being pro urbanist and anti car yet lives in the far flung suburbs and drives everywhere.

2 They are doing environmental studies and will get more into that once final alignments are chosen. How do I know? I've been talking to the program director for these projects. I must be special right! Haha I wish. The number to call is on the website. Collin is a very nice guy and will call you back pretty quickly. He even remembered me when I sent an e-mail awhile back suggesting sand filters to mitigate pollution concerns and they're going to consider things like wildlife over and under crossings. So the "they aren't doing environmental impact statements"  is a bunch of bull.

3. They are doing long term planning. They've tried to do long term planning. Now this is where some of the more experienced members on this board might want to chime in and lend me a hand as I'll be attending meetings and attempting to meet or send documents to the news director at KFOR. From what i understand these alignments were in fact studied by Norman itself along with ACOG and ODOT until citizens in Norman started complaining and the city pulled out. ACOG AND ODOT kept moving forward until ultimately pulling the plug did identify the need for a loop running along northern Norman and southeast. I haven't been able to find a map but any additional information or corrections would be appreciated.

There's also a congressional lawmaker around the north east part of Edmond who is trying to get a bill passed to open up a future expansion north continuing the Kickapoo to around Guthrie. This of course is being weaponized by the oppositions off the south turnpike groups trying to scare and rile people up that way to gain more support I guess. Well, even the author of the bill said it won't happen for 15+ plus years until this current plan is completed and it contradicts the oppositions complaints of them not having warning due to no long term planning. Rhetorical question obviously but why oppose a long term planning bill then?

4. The lack of evidence to show they are needed. I do agree the OTA should do more to make the case but I believe they have and given the growth in the metro it is important to plan for these corridors so they don't become gridlocked surface arterials. I also think these are studies that will be had once more information comes out and the opposition is jumping the gun on purpose just try and get this shut down. They don't want to see the proof that these are needed because that's one more hole in their argument.

PS, my debates with Micheal Nash have been civil and he's been a nice guy to talk to even though he opposes these roads. I think it's a tad hypocritical of him telling me this

QuoteYou shall always do as you're told ... No questions asked. I'll keep that in mind

In private message when I've been either kicked out of his group or told not to post unless it's pro anti access Oklahoma. I say it's one or the other because one group kicked me out and the other asked me not to post.

Anyways sorry for the long post. I'm passionate about the development of Oklahoma and I want to see these roads built. I can understand some points against it but all things considered I support them. I like to have an open mind so I'm always open for discussion. Those opposing this don't seem to want that.

PPS, sorry for any typos or confusing wording. I'm tired as hell but I've been meaning to post this. Any confusion or sources needed to be cited just ask and I'll fix it.

With the East to West Connector Turnpike the biggest impact to existing structures, by far, would be the complex of industrial buildings next to I-44 in Newcastle. La Luna Cantina & Grill is in the expansion path, as are 26 metal buildings. All of that would have to be cleared by the complex Y interchange added to a very modified OK-37/I-44 interchange. That's the biggest hit to existing properties. Everything else East of there is minor by comparison.

There's a couple homes on Portland Ave on the SW side of the Canadian River that might have to be cleared. Then the turnpike crosses the river. On the other side the turnpike would run parallel to West Indian Hills Road on its North side. Hammer Construction is the only building directly in the turnpike's path between the Canadian River and I-35. There's a farm building next to the river, whose access might be cut off by the turnpike.

The proposed 5-level stack interchange at I-35 would affect maybe half a dozen buildings on the NE & SE corners of the interchange. Timber Creek Fellowship Church and a cluster of other buildings on the SE corner looks like they would be spared.

East of I-35 the East to West Connector alignment shifts to the South Side of West Indian Hills Road. I count only the in neighborhood of 50 homes that would have to be cleared between I-35 and the Kickapoo extension. And that's being a bit generous. That includes a couple big McMansions just East of the N Broadway intersection. Maybe the owners of those two huge homes are generating some of the opposition.

The Kickapoo Turnpike South Extension runs over even more sparsely developed area.

The only way these turnpike opponents could be coming up with a "600 homes destroyed" estimate, other than just plain lying, is basing that guess off of possible future home construction in the area. Some jackass could always pack in a few densely packed housing subdivisions in the way of the future turnpike paths. But good luck with any speculative projects like that. Our nation's grossly over-priced real estate market is extremely into bubble territory. It's even worse than the insanity of the mid 2000's. The government is being forced to crank up interest rates and those interest hikes are going to keep coming while the price gouging on various things continues. Anyone looking to build a bunch of homes in the path of a proposed turnpike on purely speculative terms might end up losing his ass. He won't have any buyers, not with mortgage rates rising above 5%, 6% or even 7% in the near future. We have a major real estate market downturn coming. It is inevitable.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 10, 2022, 06:16:05 AM
regarding the 600+ homes issue. My guess is they took the map showing the potential routes and looked at all the homes inside the shaded area. I don't have my computer with me at the moment just my mobile phone and I'm not going to count every property in the shaded area, but it isn't hard to see that you could probably come up with a couple hundred properties, commercial and residential, for the 3 new proposed turnpikes in the south metro. I wouldn't be surprised if they went over every building that was in the shaded area in the entire plan and came up with the 600 number as I could believe that.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on May 10, 2022, 10:45:43 AM
The only way these turnpike opponents could be coming up with a "600 homes destroyed" estimate, other than just plain lying, is basing that guess off of possible future home construction in the area.

|Bobby5280|:  Do you not think the theory put forth by |Plutonic Panda| is a possibility?

I live 4 miles north of the proposed East-West connector. It will cause a major uptick in traffic in south OKC/Moore when they build it, especially if people choose to shunpike on South 134th and South 149th. For me personally, that becomes problematic because there are still areas with no sidewalks in this section of south OKC, which means there's added risk for me whenever I leave my apartment.

Is it needed? Given that I-240 has literally nowhere to expand to in south OKC, some sort of outer bypass is probably needed. Doesn't mean I have to like it...and in this case, given the unintended consequences, I don't.

Quote from: kphogerDo you not think the theory put forth by |Plutonic Panda| is a possibility?

No. The 600 homes destroyed claim is not plausible at all. You can literally look at the proposed turnpike map on the OTA's Access Oklahoma page and compare that alongside Google Earth/Maps imagery. There is nowhere near that many existing homes in the paths of the proposed turnpikes. Fewer than 100 existing buildings would be affected by the East-to-West Connector. And that's the most urban of the two proposed turnpikes in the OKC area.

Like I said earlier, the biggest negative impact by far will be that complex of industrial buildings and one restaurant on the East side of the I-44/OK-37 interchange in Newcastle. All of those properties would be wiped out by that big new interchange. The rest of the effects are going to be relatively minor. East of I-35 around 3 or 4 dozen middle class or lower middle class homes would be cleared. And two big homes for rich people. It's not hundreds of homes.

Quote from: JMoses24I live 4 miles north of the proposed East-West connector. It will cause a major uptick in traffic in south OKC/Moore when they build it, especially if people choose to shunpike on South 134th and South 149th.

Anyone driving to/from Tulsa looking to shunpike around the Kickapoo Turnpike and East to West Connector can just stay on I-44, like they have to do now.

^ Exactly. I'm not buying how a new toll road will cause people to "shunpike"  it. They'll just continue to take existing routes. It's not going to divert people onto local roads around it.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on May 10, 2022, 04:07:44 PM

Quote from: kphogerDo you not think the theory put forth by |Plutonic Panda| is a possibility?

No. The 600 homes destroyed claim is not plausible at all. You can literally look at the proposed turnpike map on the OTA's Access Oklahoma page and compare that alongside Google Earth/Maps imagery. There is nowhere near that many existing homes in the paths of the proposed turnpikes. Fewer than 100 existing buildings would be affected by the East-to-West Connector. And that's the most urban of the two proposed turnpikes in the OKC area.

Like I said earlier, the biggest negative impact by far will be that complex of industrial buildings and one restaurant on the East side of the I-44/OK-37 interchange in Newcastle. All of those properties would be wiped out by that big new interchange. The rest of the effects are going to be relatively minor. East of I-35 around 3 or 4 dozen middle class or lower middle class homes would be cleared. And two big homes for rich people. It's not hundreds of homes.

Quote from: JMoses24I live 4 miles north of the proposed East-West connector. It will cause a major uptick in traffic in south OKC/Moore when they build it, especially if people choose to shunpike on South 134th and South 149th.

Anyone driving to/from Tulsa looking to shunpike around the Kickapoo Turnpike and East to West Connector can just stay on I-44, like they have to do now.

Keep in mind, I'm playing the devils advocate there. I don't believe either there's 600 homes that will be lost due to this. Even the turnpike proposal in Tulsa is in a rural area. The Kilpatrick Widening and new ramps won't take any properties. The Turner turnpike widening and new interchanges don't look like they'll take any properties. I mean I counted 60 properties for the East to West connector and that was a quick fast count where I likely double counted MULTIPLE times because I skimmed through it.

This 600 number is complete bullshit. Micheal Nash has yet to respond. I'm calling KFOR tomorrow to see if I can get more information as they haven't returned my calls.

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 10, 2022, 04:58:55 PM
^ Exactly. I'm not buying how a new toll road will cause people to "shunpike"  it. They'll just continue to take existing routes. It's not going to divert people onto local roads around it.

Let's not forget that this turnpike will have service roads that won't have tolls if a driver doesn't want to pay. The idea that this route would increase traffic on nearby east-west roads makes no sense. It's going to decrease traffic on those streets. 

That's right. The combination of the East-to-West Connector and the extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike would function as a large relief route. In the scenario of me driving from Lawton to Tulsa, I might choose to take those two turnpikes as a faster way of getting around Oklahoma City rather than just staying on I-44. People in Newcastle, Moore and Norman would have the same options for any road trips to/from Tulsa.

If the tolls aren't too high and the speed limits are fast (70, 75 or 80mph) the two turnpikes will be a great alternative to I-44 moving through OKC. I don't mind taking I-44 thru OKC in off-peak times. I-44 can get jammed up pretty good in rush hour times. That's really true for the zone near the I-40 interchange and fairgrounds going up to the interchange with OK-66/Hefner Parkway and then farther NE over by Penn Square Mall and past the I-235/Broadway Extension interchange. All of I-44 through there can get jammed up pretty bad. The traffic jams aren't quite as soul-crushing as those in DFW. They're still not fun either. You can still burn up a lot of time and fuel in that crap. A high speed toll road going around that nonsense is worth the money during the right times. I just hope the OTA doesn't get the bright idea of using variable pricing on the tolls, like the Texas toll road agencies.

^^^ yeah and just wait until they start construction on the I-44/I-40 interchange, the I-44/SH-74 interchange, and the segment of I-44 from May to I-235 to Broadway extension. That might be later this decade early next but if these new roads are built by then they will be very useful in bypassing that which will surely be hell.

Quote from: swake on May 10, 2022, 07:23:11 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 10, 2022, 04:58:55 PM
^ Exactly. I'm not buying how a new toll road will cause people to "shunpike"  it. They'll just continue to take existing routes. It's not going to divert people onto local roads around it.

Let's not forget that this turnpike will have service roads that won't have tolls if a driver doesn't want to pay. The idea that this route would increase traffic on nearby east-west roads makes no sense. It's going to decrease traffic on those streets.

Are you sure about that? The Kilpatrick Extension to OK 152 doesn't have service roads (which I call frontage roads - if you mean otherwise, please explain). Neither does the Norman Spur of the Bailey Turnpike. Are the plans that detailed at this point?

I would be more confident arguing that their local roads will have more traffic simply because there won't be a handy limited access road to avoid the heavier local traffic as more people move into the area.

Quote from: skluth on May 11, 2022, 10:59:52 AM

Quote from: swake on May 10, 2022, 07:23:11 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 10, 2022, 04:58:55 PM
^ Exactly. I'm not buying how a new toll road will cause people to "shunpike"  it. They'll just continue to take existing routes. It's not going to divert people onto local roads around it.

Let's not forget that this turnpike will have service roads that won't have tolls if a driver doesn't want to pay. The idea that this route would increase traffic on nearby east-west roads makes no sense. It's going to decrease traffic on those streets.

Are you sure about that? The Kilpatrick Extension to OK 152 doesn't have service roads (which I call frontage roads - if you mean otherwise, please explain). Neither does the Norman Spur of the Bailey Turnpike. Are the plans that detailed at this point?

I would be more confident arguing that their local roads will have more traffic simply because there won't be a handy limited access road to avoid the heavier local traffic as more people move into the area.

The frontage/service roads are on the map for the east/west connector on the Access Oklahoma website starting at Western Ave going east to Douglas. OTA said it would be similar to the Kilpatrick in north OKC.

The Norman Spur (SH-4) wasn't urban when it was built and it still isn't. This isn't Texas–we don't build frontage roads for no good reason. So it's a bad thing to compare the Cleveland County turnpikes to.

Quote from: swake on May 11, 2022, 02:02:32 PM

Quote from: skluth on May 11, 2022, 10:59:52 AM

Quote from: swake on May 10, 2022, 07:23:11 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on May 10, 2022, 04:58:55 PM
^ Exactly. I'm not buying how a new toll road will cause people to "shunpike"  it. They'll just continue to take existing routes. It's not going to divert people onto local roads around it.

Let's not forget that this turnpike will have service roads that won't have tolls if a driver doesn't want to pay. The idea that this route would increase traffic on nearby east-west roads makes no sense. It's going to decrease traffic on those streets.

Are you sure about that? The Kilpatrick Extension to OK 152 doesn't have service roads (which I call frontage roads - if you mean otherwise, please explain). Neither does the Norman Spur of the Bailey Turnpike. Are the plans that detailed at this point?

I would be more confident arguing that their local roads will have more traffic simply because there won't be a handy limited access road to avoid the heavier local traffic as more people move into the area.

The frontage/service roads are on the map for the east/west connector on the Access Oklahoma website starting at Western Ave going east to Douglas. OTA said it would be similar to the Kilpatrick in north OKC.

Thanks for the clarification. Honestly, even if only Indian Hills was retained parallel to the East-West Connector it would be adequate to handle the traffic. I'm sure Indian Hills could be upgraded to four or six lanes between it and the new highway. The south service/frontage road is actually overkill from my POV.

Interestingly, the sad-looking trailer court shown in the imagery in the NE corner of the proposed I-35/E-W interchange footprint is gone in GSV. That's 30 less homes right there.

The one way service frontage system should be standard on every highway, IMO. It's the most efficient way of routing traffic onto freeways. I am happy they are going with this method and would much prefer it over retaining Indian Hills as a parallel two way road. I suspect this area will quickly build up in the way like the Kilpatrick/Memorial corridor did but much, much faster.

They also plan on converting to current two way frontage system from Moore to Norman to a one way. This entire area will feel like a real major metro when all these projects are said and done.

Quote from: Scott5114The Norman Spur (SH-4) wasn't urban when it was built and it still isn't. This isn't Texas–we don't build frontage roads for no good reason. So it's a bad thing to compare the Cleveland County turnpikes to.

The little segment of the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur from I-44 over East to the US-62/OK-9 intersection runs through almost entirely rural areas. There is no need for frontage roads on that nearly 8 mile segment. However the effort was a half-ass effort. Farther East from the OK-9/US-62 intersection over to I-35 that road should very much be a turnpike flanked by frontage roads. I think it's still possible to build such a thing, although a OK-9 turnpike in front of Riverwind Casino would probably have to be elevated. But that's a busy traffic area too and 100% worthy of an elevated super highway structure over an existing 4-lane divided frontage road facility.

The East to West Connector will have frontage roads along much of its length. If the OTA was smart they would buy up enough ROW so that frontage roads could be added along parts or all of the Tri-City Connector by Will Rogers Airport and the Southern Extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike. I'm pretty sure once those turnpikes are built they will help spark a good bit of development along their main lines and even more so around their exits.

I have lived in the area of the E/W connector (about a mile north) and can safely say, this would be a really, really great thing. Not only would it increase mobility in the metro as a whole, it would be great for development. There was basically nothing in terms of grocery stores or other conveniences while we lived there for at least 5 miles. The closest real grocery store was probably the Wal-Mart market on 4th and eastern. There is now a Costco near 19th and telephone, basically a straight shot from our house with the 34th street bridge, which opened about a year after we left. God, that would have been nice. With the new tollway, I bet the Sooner and Indian Hills project would get some new development. This would increase the number of neighborhoods in the area, spurring even more development. Honestly, they chose a pretty good route for it. It's undeveloped, and right between Moore and Norman. The only reason I can see that people would be opposed to it, it literally just to be opposed because they want a news story. I think that was discussed further up thread.

Also, making developments in the area right now isn't a terrible idea, as long as it is done RIGHT. Right now I live in an area where a freeway has been planned for a loping time. But, a developer wanted to develop there. So basically, they developed around the anticipated right of way. It's called... PLANNING AHEAD. It isn't that hard.

Quote
Turnpike Authority's plan to go straight to Oklahoma Supreme Court is end-run around Pike Off OTA lawsuit, group says (https://www.koco.com/article/oklahoma-ota-turnpike-lawsuit-norman-cleveland-pike-plan/40259929)

OKLAHOMA CITY –
In the ongoing battle over a controversial turnpike plan, the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority said their latest money move is all about proving the road is necessary.

Others say the agency is trying to get around a lawsuit.

Either way, the move has intensified the fight.

OTA is seeking approval from the Oklahoma Supreme Court as an effort to validate their plan. Opponents say the fight to stop that plan is far from over.

"This is not a one-year-and-done fight, this is a 15-year fight,"  said Amy Cerato of Pike Off OTA.

Access Oklahoma, a plan to build new turnpikes, is moving right along, as OTA said its board approvals look to address "legal challenges"  they're facing with Pike Off OTA.

"We're trying to move through this as quickly as possible,"  Transportation Secretary Tim Gatz said.

The Capitol dome is seen on Capitol Hill on November 13, 2019, in Washington, DC.Bipartisan group of senators announce agreement on gun control
That group says they think OTA is moving out of panic rather than seeking certainty that routes are needed.

"They are trying to push this as fast as they can, to try to prove that they are the big bully on the block and they can do whatever they want,"  Cerato said.

The group said it thinks OTA is trying to avoid the lawsuit by seeking validation from the Supreme Court. OTA said that's not the case.

"We're not side-stepping or going around anything. We're actually moving quicker toward the resolution so everyone's got certainty,"  Gatz said.

Link in headline

If you had to take a wild guess, who do you think the Oklahoma Supreme Court will rule in favor of?

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 13, 2022, 02:24:59 PM
If you had to take a wild guess, who do you think the Oklahoma Supreme Court will rule in favor of?

The OTA, of course...

http://twitter.com/KOCOAlyse/status/1546535801093226496
At today’s meeting, the Oklahoma Transportation Commission approved the South Extension, the East-West Connector and the Tri-Cities connector.

Does the OTA have any time table when construction could begin on the East-West Connector, Kickapoo South Extension and Tri-City Connector? The East-West Connector is obviously one I'd like to see built sooner than later.

Quote from: JMoses24 on July 11, 2022, 01:09:09 PM
http://twitter.com/KOCOAlyse/status/1546535801093226496
At today's meeting, the Oklahoma Transportation Commission approved the South Extension, the East-West Connector and the Tri-Cities connector.

Found a decent map. https://www.kosu.org/energy-environment/2022-05-05/in-light-of-lawsuit-council-conditionally-approves-funds-for-oklahoma-turnpike-authority

Any idea what these proposed highways might be designated if they are eventually constructed? The north-south one (Kickapoo Turnpike Extension) could be OK 340, and the east-west one could be OK 335.

I'm kind of hoping for some kind of Interstate designation to give a more obvious suggestion to motorists passing through OKC they can use the new turnpikes to bypass OKC at higher speed. If the routes are given state highway numbers some motorists might not get the idea. For instance, if the Kickapoo Turnpike and East-West Connector Turnpike were labeled something like "I-844" the hint would be pretty obvious.

I hope a North extension for the Kickapoo Turnpike could be built from Luther up and over to I-35 South of Guthrie. Such a thing would be an effective I-35 bypass route for OKC and be worthy of a "I-x35" designation.

Interstate designation or not, this will give OKC a beltway that will actually function as such, or at least come closer to such more than what is there now.

I think the east-west connector is more likely to be 337 than 335.

Not really sure about the loop by the airport. 352 perhaps?

Email I got:

QuoteACCESS Oklahoma's next steps
You are receiving this email due to your expressed interest in the ACCESS Oklahoma program, which will provide critical enhancements to our state's transportation system. The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority announced its 15-year, long-range plan Feb. 22. Since then, OTA staff developed a financial plan as engineers continue collecting information from the field. Below are highlights of recent events and upcoming meetings.

Last month, the OTA board met in a special meeting to approve the following:

Resolution authorizing the termination of a $200 million line of credit, which the Council of Bond Oversight authorized with conditions regarding pending litigation at its May 2022 meeting. The line of credit was terminated June 15.
Resolution authorizing issuance of revenue bonds for purpose of financing ACCESS Oklahoma turnpike projects.
Resolution authorizing an application with the Council of Bond Oversight for financing ACCESS Oklahoma turnpike projects.
Resolution directing an application to the Oklahoma Supreme Court for validation of bonds to be issued for purpose of financing ACCESS Oklahoma turnpike projects at issue in pending litigation.
Proposed design routes for new ACCESS Oklahoma turnpike alignments to send to the Oklahoma Transportation Commission for approval. The Commission serves as the governing body for the Oklahoma Department of Transportation.
Earlier this month during its regularly scheduled meeting, the Oklahoma Transportation Commission approved the location of the new routes proposed in the ACCESS Oklahoma program. This approval only verifies the proposed routes do not conflict with existing or planned Department of Transportation highways as well as ensures proper connection and function with the current highway system.

July 8, OTA delivered to the Council of Board Oversight an application to approve OTA's proposed issuance of revenue bonds. The Council could take up this matter at its next meeting scheduled for later this month. If it approves, OTA will petition the Oklahoma Supreme Court to validate OTA's use of bonds to finance the construction of the proposed routes in the ACCESS Oklahoma program at issue in pending litigation. Such validation will allow the OTA to move forward with the process of issuing bonds, the first of several during the long-range plan. The OTA is targeting its first bond issue sometime in late 2022 to early 2023.

The OTA continues to update the ACCESS Oklahoma website to include more project-specific information for each corridor of the program. You may see the updates and learn more about ACCESS Oklahoma at www.accessoklahoma.com

Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 13, 2022, 02:29:52 PM
I'm kind of hoping for some kind of Interstate designation to give a more obvious suggestion to motorists passing through OKC they can use the new turnpikes to bypass OKC at higher speed. If the routes are given state highway numbers some motorists might not get the idea. For instance, if the Kickapoo Turnpike and East-West Connector Turnpike were labeled something like "I-844" the hint would be pretty obvious.

I hope a North extension for the Kickapoo Turnpike could be built from Luther up and over to I-35 South of Guthrie. Such a thing would be an effective I-35 bypass route for OKC and be worthy of a "I-x35" designation.

Pending the FHWA approvals, the current portion of the Kickapoo is supposed to be a part of I-240. My guess is the south extension gets a 3 digit OK State Route designation. You can theoretically make the Tri-City Connector and the East-West Connector into another 3DI, but more likely, those get the same number as the South Kickapoo.

Even before the ACCESS Oklahoma announcement I thought the notion of naming the Kickapoo Turnpike as I-240 was a silly idea. I don't mind I-240 being labeled across Airport Road and the Kilpatrick Turnpike. That at least makes some logical sense. Pushing the designation way out east to the Kickapoo Turnpike is just too much.

The ACCESS Oklahoma plan changes the context of this situation. The Kickapoo Turnpike will ultimately be extended down to I-35 near Purcell. The best thing would be for that turnpike to have only one route number, be it a state highway number or an Interstate number. I think it would be stupid to have the Northern section called I-240 and some other number applied going South of I-40.

Good news: https://kfor.com/news/local/council-approves-500-million-in-revenue-bonds-for-oklahoma-turnpike-expansion/

How soon might construction begin on these new roads, assuming the locals and the NIMBYS don't force the projects to be canceled?

Quote from: The GhostbusterHow soon might construction begin on these new roads, assuming the locals and the NIMBYS don't force the projects to be canceled?

There's no telling. $500 million isn't going to buy a whole lot; it's only 10% of the funding for the proposed 15 year plan.

I would hope OTA would at least get to work immediately on right of way acquisition with the East to West Connector. There isn't a lot of existing development along Indian Hills Road at least for the time being (loud f***king hint). That $500 million pool should be more than enough to buy up the land and properties needed and leave quite a bit of funding left for other projects.

If OTA can at least get the ROW for the East to West Connector secured then they'll be able to proceed building out the turnpike as funding progress allows. I expect they'll build the turnpike in phases, starting with the frontage roads. Then the main lanes will follow. The 5-level stack interchange at I-35 could be the final project. I just hope it doesn't take OTA a friggin' decade to build it. It does seem like the East to West Connector and I-35 will initially operate in a "volleyball" connection with directional ramps getting added in phases. I'll be surprised if OTA builds the whole stack in one shot.

For all the griping the anti-turnpike crowd is doing; I'll bet if the East to West Connector is built-out at planned, with the 5-level stack interchange at I-35, the area around that connection with I-35 will BOOM commercially speaking. The parcels along the new turnpike will be magnets for new businesses, maybe even some high rises. The anti-turnpike folks will have to eat some crow then.

OTA has a lot of construction work to do with existing toll plazas and antiquated turnpike exits. Last weekend I drove up to Joplin for a sign industry convention. The H.E. Bailey Turnpike is technically all cash-less now. But a couple of the toll plazas are still very serious bottlenecks.

The Newcastle toll plaza has single PikePass lanes that go out-board from the existing cash toll plaza in the middle. Now all of the traffic is getting funneled through those single PikePass lanes. Temporary LED signs flash a message, "keep moving; we will bill you." Concrete barriers are blocking off the toll booth that was built in the late 1990's. Now they need to tear down that toll booth and re-do the main lanes through there (and then presumably remove those outboard PikePass lanes).

The Walters Toll Plaza is perhaps an even bigger mess. Basically the entire exit needs to be re-built.

Driving through either the Newcastle or Walters toll plazas is like driving through a construction zone. That's not going to be an acceptable arrangement for a long amount of time.

Here was the timeline for the Creek Turnpike, which had similar levels of opposition (though it was much shorter than what is proposed):

Feb. 1989 - bonds sold for funding
June 1989 - OTA begins filing eminent domain suits
Aug. 1989 - lawsuit filed to stop the turnpike on environmental grounds
Nov. 1989 - OTA files for USACE permits
Feb. 1990 - drainage work in progress
Mar. 1990 - construction on bridges begins
May 1990 - lawsuit dismissed
Nov. 1990 - USACE permits issued
Dec. 1990 - last permits secured, all contractors given notice to proceed
Mar. 1992 - first section opens

Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 10, 2022, 01:01:35 PM

Quote from: The GhostbusterHow soon might construction begin on these new roads, assuming the locals and the NIMBYS don't force the projects to be canceled?

There's no telling. $500 million isn't going to buy a whole lot; it's only 10% of the funding for the proposed 15 year plan.

I would hope OTA would at least get to work immediately on right of way acquisition with the East to West Connector.
<snip>

Can't be done. The enabling language specifically states no funds can be spent on those until all lawsuits are either dismissed or settled. The $500 million is for the other parts.

Quote from: rte66man on August 11, 2022, 12:05:58 AM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 10, 2022, 01:01:35 PM

Quote from: The GhostbusterHow soon might construction begin on these new roads, assuming the locals and the NIMBYS don't force the projects to be canceled?

There's no telling. $500 million isn't going to buy a whole lot; it's only 10% of the funding for the proposed 15 year plan.

I would hope OTA would at least get to work immediately on right of way acquisition with the East to West Connector.
<snip>

Can't be done. The enabling language specifically states no funds can be spent on those until all lawsuits are either dismissed or settled. The $500 million is for the other parts.

So does that mean funding can be indefinitely delayed by starting frivolous lawsuits? Uh-oh...

Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 22, 2022, 09:52:15 AM
Even before the ACCESS Oklahoma announcement I thought the notion of naming the Kickapoo Turnpike as I-240 was a silly idea. I don't mind I-240 being labeled across Airport Road and the Kilpatrick Turnpike. That at least makes some logical sense. Pushing the designation way out east to the Kickapoo Turnpike is just too much.

The ACCESS Oklahoma plan changes the context of this situation. The Kickapoo Turnpike will ultimately be extended down to I-35 near Purcell. The best thing would be for that turnpike to have only one route number, be it a state highway number or an Interstate number. I think it would be stupid to have the Northern section called I-240 and some other number applied going South of I-40.

It may seem illogical, but the stated DOT logic is that anyone needing to bypass OKC from *any* direction will have a continunously signed I-240 looping completely around.  I-275 around Cincinnati isn't perfectly shaped either, but does the same job -- unless there's an accident or construction around the Spence, it's always faster to go *through* Cincy on 75 or 71...  As a far outer bypass, it's not any less logical that Houston's Loop 8, nor the someday to be full circle TX 99....
.
As for the Kickapoo, south of I-40 having it be OK 340 makes sense enough.  The E-W can be OK 335, and the spur from now OK-152 to I-44 past the airport can't be 344, so maybe indeed it would make most sense as OK 352 - although this will eventually be the E terminus of 152!  (Since 312, 344, 351, 364, and 375 started this crazy pattern...)

Quote from: sturmde on August 11, 2022, 12:28:23 PM
I-275 around Cincinnati isn't perfectly shaped either, but does the same job

See but the issue is not necessarily that the proposed I-240 loop isn't the quickest way around OKC or that it's large. And that's where I have an issue with the I-275 comparison. 275 is its own road, except for a brief concurrency with 74, and is one complete, logical thoroughfare. The I-240 loop, however, would be filled with several long concurrencies, including 2 separate ones with I-44 and a concurrency with I-40 itself, in addition to lots of quick changes due to needing to exit itself. It'd be a hodgepodge of existing roadways and given they likely wouldn't be building dedicated 2 lane highways for every interchange, it's much less intuitive than an oddly shaped Cincy loop.

Here's a hint the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority and/or ODOT needs to add a second set of lanes to OK-4 going North from I-44 into Bridge Creek: A fatal head-on collision this weekend involving 3 vehicles at high speed. A vehicle traveling Northbound veered left of center, hitting two vehicles going Southbound in the opposing lane. 2 people were declared dead at the scene. A woman driving the third vehicle was treated at a hospital for arm injuries and released.
https://www.news9.com/story/63001fff84275b070ac0dd0b/1-dead-lanes-closed-fiery-crash-in-grady-county

The accident happened at the intersection of OK-4 (S Mustang Rd) and Rock Creek Rd. Technically the turnpike extension begins immediately South of this intersection even though there is around a dozen at grade intersections and driveways between that point and I-44.

IIRC, OTA does have a project proposed to add a new limited access exit on that stretch of OK-4 at Fox Lane. But I can't recall if they're going to improve some of the road into 4-lane configuration. They do have enough ROW reserved to 4-lane OK-4 into the South side of Bridge Creek.

As OK-4 enters Bridge Creek the road expands from 2 lanes into a 5-lane street with a center turn lane. North of Bridge Creek OK-4 takes on a 4-lane divided configuration. I think this corridor has enough importance that none of it between I-44 and Mustang should be in a 2-lane configuration. The turnpike should be extended as far as possible into Bridge Creek, with frontage roads included on the final approach. Ideally, the turnpike should be extended through Bridge Creek and up into Mustang.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 21, 2022, 12:21:31 PM
Here's a hint the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority and/or ODOT needs to add a second set of lanes to OK-4 going North from I-44 into Bridge Creek: A fatal head-on collision this weekend involving 3 vehicles at high speed. A vehicle traveling Northbound veered left of center, hitting two vehicles going Southbound in the opposing lane. 2 people were declared dead at the scene. A woman driving the third vehicle was treated at a hospital for arm injuries and released.
https://www.news9.com/story/63001fff84275b070ac0dd0b/1-dead-lanes-closed-fiery-crash-in-grady-county

The accident happened at the intersection of OK-4 (S Mustang Rd) and Rock Creek Rd. Technically the turnpike extension begins immediately South of this intersection even though there is around a dozen at grade intersections and driveways between that point and I-44.

Heh.
"around a dozen" = 1.5 (according to Google maps).

There is a home just north of the Sooner Road overpass that has created their own access (I gave it a .5)
The main one is to the west about a 1/2 mile south of Fox Lane that gives access to that housing addition.

I didn't count the ODOT maintenance shed.

Quote from: Cerlin on August 12, 2022, 05:23:20 PM

Quote from: sturmde on August 11, 2022, 12:28:23 PM
I-275 around Cincinnati isn't perfectly shaped either, but does the same job

See but the issue is not necessarily that the proposed I-240 loop isn't the quickest way around OKC or that it's large. And that's where I have an issue with the I-275 comparison. 275 is its own road, except for a brief concurrency with 74, and is one complete, logical thoroughfare. The I-240 loop, however, would be filled with several long concurrencies, including 2 separate ones with I-44 and a concurrency with I-40 itself, in addition to lots of quick changes due to needing to exit itself. It'd be a hodgepodge of existing roadways and given they likely wouldn't be building dedicated 2 lane highways for every interchange, it's much less intuitive than an oddly shaped Cincy loop.

Looks at you funnily in I-87/287 and I-95/495.

If Interstate 240 is extended into a 91-mile beltway around, it would not be the first duplex between Interstate 40 and one of its 3dis. Historically, Interstates 40 and 240 were briefly co-designated together in Memphis after 40 through Overton Park was canceled (the duplex was removed a year after it was designated in 1982). Also, Interstate 40 and Interstate 440 were co-designated in Raleigh from when 440 was designated in 1991 until 2008.

Quote from: rte66manHeh.
"around a dozen" = 1.5 (according to Google maps).

On OK-4 South of Rock Creek Road there are at grade intersections with CR 1210, Fox Lane and CR 1226. In addition there are 13 driveways entering OK-4 at grade. That includes the ODOT maintenance shed among other things.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 23, 2022, 06:58:16 PM

Quote from: rte66manHeh.
"around a dozen" = 1.5 (according to Google maps).

On OK-4 South of Rock Creek Road there are at grade intersections with CR 1210, Fox Lane and CR 1226. In addition there are 13 driveways entering OK-4 at grade. That includes the ODOT maintenance shed among other things.

I wasn't aware that Tuttle also has a Rock Creek Road that has zero in common with the Rock Creek Road in Cleveland County. Very tricksy!

Quote from: rte66man on August 24, 2022, 03:16:05 PM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 23, 2022, 06:58:16 PM

Quote from: rte66manHeh.
"around a dozen" = 1.5 (according to Google maps).

On OK-4 South of Rock Creek Road there are at grade intersections with CR 1210, Fox Lane and CR 1226. In addition there are 13 driveways entering OK-4 at grade. That includes the ODOT maintenance shed among other things.

I wasn't aware that Tuttle also has a Rock Creek Road that has zero in common with the Rock Creek Road in Cleveland County. Very tricksy!

I always assumed it was at least on the same line of latitude as the Cleveland County Rock Creek Road...nope, it's two miles north of there, on the same line as Franklin Road. (Fox Lane is what lines up with Rock Creek Road in Norman.)

Not that it really matters, since they don't connect thanks to the river.

Hopefully the court rules in favor of the OTA: https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/politics/government/2022/09/14/turnpike-opponents-present-argument-to-oklahoma-supreme-court-jered-davidson/69492699007/

Yeah, I hope the court rules in favor of the OTA as well. I hope the court does not remove any of the proposed routes either.

The anti turnpikes crowd has routinely been using disinformation tactics to promote their arguments. They've wildly exaggerated how many properties would have to be acquired by either the Tri City Connector or Kickapoo Turnpike Extension to Purcell. They're flatly ignoring any of the benefits these new turnpikes would provide. A bunch of the crowd is just there to bitch about tolls, thinking their tax dollars are paying for the construction and upkeep of those highways. They barf out their arguments and expose how ill-informed they are at the same time.

From Journal Record:

QuoteOKLAHOMA CITY — Today's Oklahoma Turnpike Authority has a very different idea about the scope of its power than the OTA of 20 or 30 years ago, according to arguments made before the Oklahoma Supreme Court on Tuesday.

The OTA asked the court to approve a bond issue that would allow the agency to move forward with a controversial $5 billion turnpike extension, even as the proposal is currently pending in district court. A court referee heard arguments in the request on Tuesday.

Representing the OTA, Jered Davidson said the agency always has been granted the leeway to identify when and where new toll roads are needed. Getting the court's approval would provide certainty for all involved as the agency moves to create new roadways intended to relieve congestion along the Interstate 35 corridor.

Opponents to the plan pointed to current statutes as well as previously attempted legislation that they say shows the agency requires legislative approval for new projects of this scope.

"OTA has asked for permission to build the south extension before,"  said attorney Elaine Dowling on Tuesday afternoon. "They were denied it. This year, they didn't bother asking."

A project that closely mirrors the current proposal, to extend the turnpike system south to Purcell, was requested and rejected during the 1999 legislative session, Dowling said.

The Oklahoma Legislature had years ago stipulated that four turnpike expansion projects be funded with one bond issue, if they were to be completed at all, attorney Rob Norman told the court. The OTA opted against the plan, instead requesting the ability to issue bonds at a later date to continue the project. That request was denied, and the project was abandoned for decades.

Davidson contended that the bond issue to fund the project currently proposed is a continuation of the original bond issue from decades ago, and thus already is approved under the decades' old authorization.

Former state Rep. Mike Reynolds, who served in the Legislature from 2002 to 2014, said he did everything he could to kill a similar turnpike extension proposal.

"I was told it was dead,"  Reynolds told the Oklahoma Supreme Court referee overseeing Tuesday's hearing. "Today I find out it's not as dead as I thought. It's quite interesting to me that somehow the authority has determined they have legislative authority. ... To try to piggyback these turnpikes on previous legislation I think is absolutely disgusting."

The city of Norman has joined the list of parties opposing the OTA's request, along with a group of affected landowners and neighbors that formed the group Pike Off OTA.

The stakes couldn't be higher, opponents of the OTA's Access Oklahoma plan told the court on Tuesday. A victory for the OTA would give the government agency the confidence to continue building toll roads anytime, taking anyone's private land for the purpose, and turning over ownership of the state's roads to foreign investors, said opponents to the plan.

Norman resident Amy Cerrato said neighbors have been "terrorized"  by land surveyors as they move ahead with plans to acquire their land to make way for the turnpike.

The Oklahoma Council on Bond Oversight gave only conditional approval for the bond issue, contingent on the legal challenges against the turnpike extension being resolved in favor of the OTA. The OTA responded by reallocating other funding sources in order to continue moving forward with the project.

"Less than one year from public announcement to eminent domain,"  Cerrato said. "Would that accelerated timeline be to avoid the next legislative session that could potentially pass bills to limit the OTA's authority and put citizen protections in place?"

- https://journalrecord.com/2022/09/13/oklahoma-turnpike-authority-makes-its-case-to-state-supreme-court/?utm_term=Oklahoma%20Turnpike%20Authority%20makes%20its%20case%20to%20state%20Supreme%20Court&utm_campaign=Oklahoma%20Turnpike%20Authority%20makes%20its%20case%20to%20state%20Supreme%20Court&utm_content=Editorial&utm_source=Act-On+Software&utm_medium=OKC&Email=plutonicpanda@gmail.com

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 20, 2022, 03:27:11 PM
From Journal Record:

Quote
Norman resident Amy Cerrato said neighbors have been "terrorized"  by land surveyors as they move ahead with plans to acquire their land to make way for the turnpike.

Uhhh "terrorized"? That woman has no idea what real terrorizing is. I would really love to see what she considers terrorizing.

Quote from: rte66man on September 22, 2022, 01:42:53 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 20, 2022, 03:27:11 PM
From Journal Record:

Quote
Norman resident Amy Cerrato said neighbors have been "terrorized"  by land surveyors as they move ahead with plans to acquire their land to make way for the turnpike.

Uhhh "terrorized"? That woman has no idea what real terrorizing is. I would really love to see what she considers terrorizing.

Surveyors around here need to at least make an effort to repair property damage if they have to dig for buried markers and the like.

Had neighbors hire surveyors that had to do that on my property.  I'd have to go with "probably not terrorism."

Quote from: rte66man on September 22, 2022, 01:42:53 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 20, 2022, 03:27:11 PM
From Journal Record:

Quote
"terrorized"  by land surveyors

Uhhh "terrorized"? That woman has no idea what real terrorizing is. I would really love to see what she considers terrorizing.

(https://surveyorconnect.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/YOL_015_640sq.jpg)

Drove the Kickapoo home yesterday. Why does it have 130-149 Mile Markers? Is it based of I-35 Mile Markers or I-44? Just curious. Since they are extending it to I-35 Near Purcell do you think they scrapped the 240 designation and going to call it X35 Designation? Still no signs of the 240 loop.


Another note also why don't they extend 235 to the JKT?

Quote from: jdingus on October 19, 2022, 02:18:21 PM
Drove the Kickapoo home yesterday. Why does it have 130-149 Mile Markers? Is it based of I-35 Mile Markers or I-44? Just curious.

The I-44/Kickapoo interchange is exit 149 on both roads.

Quote from: jdingus on October 19, 2022, 02:18:21 PM
Since they are extending it to I-35 Near Purcell do you think they scrapped the 240 designation and going to call it X35 Designation? Still no signs of the 240 loop.

When the Transportation Commission was voting on the I-240 designation, Tim Gatz was pretty damn proud of its "loop format". I can't see them doing anything to change that.

My guess is the southern extension of the Kickapoo will either just be called the Kickapoo, or be numbered as a SH-3xx (probably 309).

Quote from: jdingus on October 19, 2022, 02:18:21 PM
Another note also why don't they extend 235 to the JKT?

Someone at ODOT would have to do paperwork.

Once I-240 is signed over the Kilpatrick Turnpike it should be possible to extend the I-235 designation North to the JKT/Broadway Extension interchange.

Is the US 77 freeway north of Interstate 44 up to Interstate Standards? In any event, I doubt Interstate 235 will ever be extended north of Interstate 44.

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 19, 2022, 09:38:00 PM
Is the US 77 freeway north of Interstate 44 up to Interstate Standards? In any event, I doubt Interstate 235 will ever be extended north of Interstate 44.

I see no obvious reason it wouldn't be. I think it's merely that the thought of extending I-235 has never occurred to ODOT.

If someone wants to ask them why it hasn't been extended, let us know what they say. They don't answer my emails.

Quote from: The GhostbusterIs the US 77 freeway north of Interstate 44 up to Interstate Standards? In any event, I doubt Interstate 235 will ever be extended north of Interstate 44.

I would be shocked if Broadway Extension between I-44 and the JKT was not up to current Interstate standards. That whole segment of freeway was pretty much re-built in the early to mid 2000's. Improvements to Broadway Extension going into the I-44 interchange dragged into the late 2000's. Then it took at least another ten or so years to get the friggin' I-44/I-235 interchange finished.

Back when Broadway Extension was being re-built I wondered if ODOT would try to extend the I-235 designation along it. With I-235 being an even-numbered route, but not a loop highway, both ends are supposed to connect to other Interstate highways. It currently does that with I-35 and I-44. If the JKT ends up carrying the I-240 designation then that would seem to green-light the possibility of I-235 being named over Broadway Extension.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 19, 2022, 06:44:59 PM
Once I-240 is signed over the Kilpatrick Turnpike it should be possible to extend the I-235 designation North to the JKT/Broadway Extension interchange.

I know the AASHTO has approved but has the FHWA approved it?

I don't know if the FHWA has signed off on the I-240 extension. I don't mind I-240 being signed over the JKT, but I think the proposal to sign it along the Kickapoo Turnpike is pretty silly. And the I-240/Kickapoo proposal seems even more silly in light of the Access OK announcement to extended the Kickapoo Turnpike down to Purcell. In that context it would make more sense for the Kickapoo Turnpike to carry a I-x35 designation.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 20, 2022, 07:27:58 PM
I don't know if the FHWA has signed off on the I-240 extension. I don't mind I-240 being signed over the JKT, but I think the proposal to sign it along the Kickapoo Turnpike is pretty silly. And the I-240/Kickapoo proposal seems even more silly in light of the Access OK announcement to extended the Kickapoo Turnpike down to Purcell. In that context it would make more sense for the Kickapoo Turnpike to carry a I-x35 designation.

That doesn't get Gatz his "loop format" though.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 20, 2022, 07:27:58 PM
I don't know if the FHWA has signed off on the I-240 extension. I don't mind I-240 being signed over the JKT, but I think the proposal to sign it along the Kickapoo Turnpike is pretty silly. And the I-240/Kickapoo proposal seems even more silly in light of the Access OK announcement to extended the Kickapoo Turnpike down to Purcell. In that context it would make more sense for the Kickapoo Turnpike to carry a I-x35 designation.

I would agree with that assessment. Sign the Airport Rd/JKT I-240 to eastern terminus of JKT.  Extend I-235 on the Broadway Ext.  Since the Access Oklahoma plan is to extend the Kickapoo to Purcell. (I have also heard rumblings of it being extended north to just south of Guthrie) make that an I-x35. That was the reason for my earlier question about the Mile Markers on the Kickapoo.

I don't think there are any official proposals for extending the Kickapoo Turnpike farther North to I-35 near Guthrie. But such a thing would make perfect sense. If I had my way I'd name it "I-835" since no such route number exists currently.

Quote from: Scott5114That doesn't get Gatz his "loop format" though.

True. But signing I-240 over the Kickapoo Turnpike between I-44 and I-40 would result in a I-240 route with at least 3, if not 4 route concurrencies. I-240 would have two concurrencies with I-44. The one between the current West end of I-240 and Airport Road would be a wrong-way concurrency. I have less of a problem with that than I do the idea of signing I-240 along the Kickapoo Turnpike. If I-240 ended up being signed over all of the Kickapoo Turnpike, including its Southern Extension then the "loop" would end up being a weird comma shape (and it would connect to I-35 in 3 different locations).

Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 21, 2022, 08:35:07 PM
I don't think there are any official proposals for extending the Kickapoo Turnpike farther North to I-35 near Guthrie. But such a thing would make perfect sense. If I had my way I'd name it "I-835" since no such route number exists currently.

Not sure if you'd classify it is as "official"  but I believe they are actively studying it and even an assembly member called for it to be written into law.

I don't think there's ever been an intent to do a "comma shaped" loop along the turnpike extension. The I-240 extension was first proposed before the Kickapoo extension was.

I still think the most likely scenario is that the Kickapoo will change designations at I-40, with I-240 to the north and a SH-3xx number (probably 309) to the south.

Not to get political but Governor Stitt's opponent Joy Hoffmeister has stated she is against this plan and it's looking like she is leading in the polls. If she becomes governor and actually tries to stop these projects is that possible?

Probably. ODOT and OTA are both part of the executive branch, which the governor enjoys a good amount of control over. If she says don't build it, they don't build it. This is especially true for projects that haven't broken ground yet.

I get the feeling that the governor's race is a coin flip at the moment. If I had to bet money on it, I'd bet on Hofmeister, but no more than $2.

Just in case you missed it in the batch of more interesting races last night, Stitt was re-elected by a comfortable margin and will be allowed to enjoy building as many turnpikes and governor's mansions as he would like to over the next 4 years.

The OTA had better not waste any time with the effort to buy properties along West Indian Hills Road to gain ROW for the East-West Connector Turnpike. If they fart around they're going to witness lots of new buildings sprout up along that street. It will really get clogged near I-35. They need even more room there if they really intend to build a 5-level directional stack interchange.

Spoiler alert: They're going to fart around like they ate a can of beans and got on a carousel.

It seems like they're just waiting on the Oklahoma Supreme Court to give the go ahead. Anyone know when that might happen? Could it just come at any time? Maybe they were waiting for the election results.

Here in Oklahoma the elections are all done. I figured Stitt would win re-election, but I'm a bit surprised he won by such a comfortable margin.

I thought the OTA was authorized in August to sell $500 million in bonds to start the program, but I guess that's still being held up by the State Supreme Court. I keep beating the dead horse about the East-West Connector going between Moore and Norman, but that's only because it's clearly going to be the most difficult and most expensive project in the whole $5 billion program. It doesn't take a rocket scientist IQ to understand the OTA needs to get ROW preserved for that specific turnpike before they do much of anything else. The East-West Connector has to be a top priority otherwise it will just become impossible to build. There are plenty of people in the Norman and Moore area who would like to deliberately obstruct the path of that future turnpike with a whole lot of new buildings.

Well some not so good news: https://www.news9.com/story/6389331fe0dbad7b2191339b/judge-rules-against-ota-in-open-meetings-case

The judge has ruled against the OTA. Not sure what this means for the future of the program. Hopefully it still moves forward.

I have no idea, because the news article didn't seem to be interested in what the judge was ruling on, exactly. But if it's just an open-meetings law that they violated, I would assume the remedy would be to just do the meetings over.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 01, 2022, 06:22:00 PM
I have no idea, because the news article didn't seem to be interested in what the judge was ruling on, exactly. But if it's just an open-meetings law that they violated, I would assume the remedy would be to just do the meetings over.

It's News 9. 99 percent of their articles are this way. Just a paragraph or two nothing you couldn't get from a press release.

Regarding the ruling that's what I think it is.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 01, 2022, 06:22:00 PMI have no idea, because the news article didn't seem to be interested in what the judge was ruling on, exactly. But if it's just an open-meetings law that they violated, I would assume the remedy would be to just do the meetings over.

I did some digging and while I wasn't able to find a PDF of the judge's opinion, it appears OTA violated the Oklahoma open meetings statute by not including approval of a $5 million design contract (SP-65) in meeting agendas posted online.  The plaintiffs were able to show, using metadata, that OTA officials went back and modified the agendas after the meetings to include information for SP-65, which indicates they knew they were breaking the law.

KGOU (Oklahoma City NPR affiliate) report (https://www.kgou.org/news/2022-10-21/metadata-show-oklahoma-turnpike-authority-modified-public-meeting-agendas)

Bad OTA!  Bad, bad OTA!

^^^ well that's just ridiculous on the OTAs part if so. I would assume this means they will be very careful moving forward. Surely that was just a mistake made as a $5 million dollar contract wouldn't be worth hiding or covering up here.

Tim Gatz weighs in:

https://ktul.com/news/local/ota-would-never-play-games-with-the-agenda-tim-gatz-secretary-of-transportation-director-of-turnpike-authority-pikeoff-ota-oklahoma-ok-okc-norman-southern-extension-access-oklahoma-project-jessica-brown

Quote
'OTA would never play games with the agenda': Secretary of Transportation speaks out

by Wayne StaffordTuesday, December 6th 2022

The Secretary of Transportation is speaking out for the first time since a judge ruled the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority (OTA) violated the Open Meeting Act.

"The turnpike authority would never play games with the agenda," said Tim Gatz, Secretary of Transportation and the Director of OTA.

Monday's meeting might have been uneventful, but it gave attendees the chance to find out what happens next with the Oklahoma Access Project after a judge ruled in favor of a lawsuit that says the OTA "intended to mislead the public."

"It's an iterative process that we're having to go through," Gatz said. "First and foremost, we acknowledge the court's ruling. While we don't necessarily agree with it, I wouldn't go as far to say the project is in jeopardy. What I would say is conditions are different."

After approving the OTA's budget, board members went into executive session expected to discuss legal proceedings with Access Oklahoma.

"I feel like it's an atrocious plan to put this so close to the water shed," said Tassie Hirschfeld, an attendee of Monday's meeting. "The City of Norman has voted unanimously several times they do not want this in their community. All of the legal arguments, all the thousands of dollars they spent contesting this, resisting turning over evidence for discovery, none of that had merit."

In many ways OTA will have to start over with this process, which Gatz says he believes is "appropriate to progress" the Access Oklahoma Program.

I've heard the big decision could come around December 16-18th. So keep your eyes and ears open on those dates. If not next likely time frame is in mid January. It will be so nice if the courts rule in favor of the OTA and we can get all of these projects going finally.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2022, 08:49:11 AM
It will be so nice if the courts rule in favor of the OTA and we can get all of these projects going finally.

I'd rather that the court rules in such a way that justice is properly served based on the facts at hand–whether that's against or in favor of the OTA.  How much I want a project to break ground doesn't influence how I want a court to rule.

Quote from: kphoger on December 07, 2022, 12:04:43 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2022, 08:49:11 AM
It will be so nice if the courts rule in favor of the OTA and we can get all of these projects going finally.

I'd rather that the court rules in such a way that justice is properly served based on the facts at hand–whether that's against or in favor of the OTA.  How much I want a project to break ground doesn't influence how I want a court to rule.

I agree. It's unfortunate that Norman has incorporated the rural land east of its urban core to encompass Lake Thunderbird. Ownership, or in this case incorporated limits, work in Norman's favor regarding any Kickapoo Turnpike extension south. Norman also has the bulk of the proposed East-West Connector corridor within its northern limit.  However, both corridors are lightly populated so the OTA eminent domain efforts to improve the Oklahoma transportation infrastructure may outweigh Norman's stated interests as relatively few residents will be personally impacted by OTAs proposals even from a quality of life impact. The Kickapoo could still be extended south east of Lake Thunderbird should the court rule against OTA but there's no good alternative to the East-West Connector corridor.

Quote from: kphoger on December 07, 2022, 12:04:43 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2022, 08:49:11 AM
It will be so nice if the courts rule in favor of the OTA and we can get all of these projects going finally.

I'd rather that the court rules in such a way that justice is properly served based on the facts at hand–whether that's against or in favor of the OTA.  How much I want a project to break ground doesn't influence how I want a court to rule.

Well that'a certainly high and mighty but I'll join the camp who doesn't care about that one way or another as my faith in the courts to actually make fair and just decisions is next to zero.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2022, 01:53:36 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 07, 2022, 12:04:43 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2022, 08:49:11 AMIt will be so nice if the courts rule in favor of the OTA and we can get all of these projects going finally.

I'd rather that the court rules in such a way that justice is properly served based on the facts at hand–whether that's against or in favor of the OTA.  How much I want a project to break ground doesn't influence how I want a court to rule.

Well that's certainly high and mighty but I'll join the camp who doesn't care about that one way or another as my faith in the courts to actually make fair and just decisions is next to zero.

Public authorities are vested with a tremendous amount of power, so I think it is important for the courts to enforce procedural regularity and transparency, and they generally have a good track record of doing so simply because it is usually a matter of applying black-letter law.  In my experience, doing things right in this way rarely results in projects being delayed or cancelled.  On the other hand, running roughshod over stakeholders' expectations of how the process should work only encourages them to dig in their heels.

What is not clear from the press reporting is why OTA didn't follow the rulebook for this specific design contract.  If it was a simple administrative oversight, why not just admit it?  If they were trying to pull a fast one on the opponents, don't they realize that that trick works only once?

Quote from: J N Winkler on December 07, 2022, 02:54:27 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2022, 01:53:36 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 07, 2022, 12:04:43 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2022, 08:49:11 AMIt will be so nice if the courts rule in favor of the OTA and we can get all of these projects going finally.

I'd rather that the court rules in such a way that justice is properly served based on the facts at hand–whether that's against or in favor of the OTA.  How much I want a project to break ground doesn't influence how I want a court to rule.

Well that's certainly high and mighty but I'll join the camp who doesn't care about that one way or another as my faith in the courts to actually make fair and just decisions is next to zero.

Public authorities are vested with a tremendous amount of power, so I think it is important for the courts to enforce procedural regularity and transparency, and they generally have a good track record of doing so simply because it is usually a matter of applying black-letter law.  In my experience, doing things right in this way rarely results in projects being delayed or cancelled.  On the other hand, running roughshod over stakeholders' expectations of how the process should work only encourages them to dig in their heels.

What is not clear from the press reporting is why OTA didn't follow the rulebook for this specific design contract.  If it was a simple administrative oversight, why not just admit it?  If they were trying to pull a fast one on the opponents, don't they realize that that trick works only once?

To be clear, I want the courts to make the right and just decision as well. I personally believe that decision is to build these roads. What they got the OTA on was a minor technicality "gotcha"  type thing where some minutes weren't posted and then they tried to cover it up.

With that said especially given the recent decisions from the highest court in the land I have little to no faith in our courts to do what is actually right. So my personal opinion is the right thing to do is to build these roads and that decision is the right one the courts should choose. Of course that's only my opinion and nothing more.

I hope that clears up what I'm getting at...

It sounds like one court made decisions you don't agree with, so for some reason you think all courts are inept.

Quote from: skluth on December 07, 2022, 12:56:49 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 07, 2022, 12:04:43 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2022, 08:49:11 AM
It will be so nice if the courts rule in favor of the OTA and we can get all of these projects going finally.

I'd rather that the court rules in such a way that justice is properly served based on the facts at hand–whether that's against or in favor of the OTA.  How much I want a project to break ground doesn't influence how I want a court to rule.

I agree. It's unfortunate that Norman has incorporated the rural land east of its urban core to encompass Lake Thunderbird. Ownership, or in this case incorporated limits, work in Norman's favor regarding any Kickapoo Turnpike extension south. Norman also has the bulk of the proposed East-West Connector corridor within its northern limit.  However, both corridors are lightly populated so the OTA eminent domain efforts to improve the Oklahoma transportation infrastructure may outweigh Norman's stated interests as relatively few residents will be personally impacted by OTAs proposals even from a quality of life impact. The Kickapoo could still be extended south east of Lake Thunderbird should the court rule against OTA but there's no good alternative to the East-West Connector corridor.

As a Norman resident, I should point out that the reason why Norman has annexed Lake Thunderbird, and why they are so defensive of it in general, is because it is the city's sole drinking water source. A good chunk of Norman's annexation of east Cleveland County is to block Oklahoma City from getting there first (probably because we don't want them making a claim for the water in Lake Thunderbird).

A good number of the arguments against the Kickapoo extension focus on water quality issues as a reason to oppose the turnpike. This works because Norman was for many years over the EPA allowed limits for certain types of contaminants in water, and it took a few years' worth of effort to bring the water into compliance. So bringing up water quality is a good way to hit the "Worry about this!" button in longtime residents' brains.

Quote from: kphoger on December 07, 2022, 05:35:18 PM
It sounds like one court made decisions you don't agree with, so for some reason you think all courts are inept.

The Oklahoma court system is inept.

It's also funny how an entire town was removed for the construction of Lake Thunderbird. I bet all of the PikeOff folks don't have any issue with that lol

Email I received:

QuoteACCESS Oklahoma Update
ACCESS Oklahoma Stakeholder,

December 1, 2022, the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority received a decision in the Open Meeting Act lawsuit filed in Cleveland County District Court by a group of Norman residents opposed to the ACCESS Oklahoma program. The decision invalidates certain board action items from the Authority's regular meetings in January and February 2022.

The Authority's general counsel and outside litigation counsel are evaluating the Court's decision and the Authority's options. This includes items of business that must be brought to the board for consideration in order to correct what the Court found to be deficient. In the interim, and as a result of the Court's decision, it is necessary that contract work on the ACCESS Oklahoma program authorized during the January and February board meetings be paused. This includes the following projects: I-44/Turner Turnpike widening, I-44/Will Roger Turnpike widening, John Kilpatrick Turnpike widening, new access points throughout Oklahoma's toll-supported network and new alignments (East-West Connector, Tri-City Connector, South Extension, and Gilcrease Northwest segment). This is effective at noon Central time Thursday, December 8, 2022, and will remain paused until the board is able to consider and take corrective action as described above or as otherwise directed by the Authority. As such, all progress and update meetings currently scheduled with stakeholders are canceled/postponed.

While these developments were not anticipated, the Authority will move in a deliberate and thoughtful manner, in compliance with the Court's decision, to progress ACCESS Oklahoma.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2022, 06:58:06 PM
It's also funny how an entire town was removed for the construction of Lake Thunderbird. I bet all of the PikeOff folks don't have any issue with that lol

There's a reason you never hear about new reservoirs being constructed anymore.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 07, 2022, 06:59:59 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2022, 06:58:06 PM
It's also funny how an entire town was removed for the construction of Lake Thunderbird. I bet all of the PikeOff folks don't have any issue with that lol

There's a reason you never hear about new reservoirs being constructed anymore.

Sure but all of these folks up in arms over their homes being taken for infrastructure don't seem to have as much of an issue using other infrastructure that took other peoples homes.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2022, 07:12:13 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 07, 2022, 06:59:59 PM

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 07, 2022, 06:58:06 PM
It's also funny how an entire town was removed for the construction of Lake Thunderbird. I bet all of the PikeOff folks don't have any issue with that lol

There's a reason you never hear about new reservoirs being constructed anymore.

Sure but all of these folks up in arms over their homes being taken for infrastructure don't seem to have as much of an issue using other infrastructure that took other peoples homes.

Well, of course. It's not their homes that got taken for that infrastructure. What do they care?

Oklahoma is a bastion of this kind of "fuck you, I got mine" way of thinking.

Quote from: Plutonic PandaSure but all of these folks up in arms over their homes being taken for infrastructure don't seem to have as much of an issue using other infrastructure that took other peoples homes.

Most of these people bitching honestly don't have anything to worry about. Very few would have to worry about their homes being bought at market value and removed to make way for a turnpike. The East-West Connector would have the biggest impact yet it won't remove many properties at all along its proposed alignment. Still, these people are bitching because, well, people love having something to gripe about. And a community-wide group-think crusade is even more entertaining.

This new argument over water quality at Lake Thunderbird is an odd one. There are numerous man-made lakes used primarily for drinking water that have major highways running next to them, or even bridges going over them. Lake Hefner in OKC has Hefner Parkway next to it. And that freeway probably has a higher VPD count than the Kickapoo Turnpike would generate. Lake Ray Hubbard is one of the biggest reservoirs serving the DFW metroplex. It has 7 different bridges crossing it, 2 of which carry I-30.

If I recall correctly, there are several water sources in Louisiana that are directly crossed by interstates on long viaducts, and nobody seems to care all that much...

This is like the rose rocks. People are grasping at whatever straws they can.

Quote from: US 89 on December 08, 2022, 12:26:16 AM
If I recall correctly, there are several water sources in Louisiana that are directly crossed by interstates on long viaducts, and nobody seems to care all that much...

This is like the rose rocks. People are grasping at whatever straws they can.

Those rose rocks are a legit rarity that should be protected and the highway plans should be (and can be) modified to accommodate them. I don't think it will affect the overall plan much. OTOH, the few people and businesses being displaced by these highways through mostly undeveloped rural exurban and rural land claiming these highways should be stopped because of the danger to Lake Thunderbird are, as you state, grasping at straws to stop the eminent domain process.

The rose rocks are not really in danger.  The extent of the Garber Formation they are found in spans a fairly large area east of OKC/Norman between the Canadian and Cimarron Rivers.   And it's not like they're going to trench a hundred feet down to build a turnpike.  The vast majority of the roses will exist deep enough to be unaffected by surface activity.  The best places to find them are actually the shores of Thunderbird Lake where wave action exposes them.

The Garber Formation is 150 to 400 feet thick in the area of OKC where the turnpikes are proposed.  Now not every level of that is going to have rose concretions, but suffice to say there are plenty safely hidden below dozens to hundreds of feet of rock.

People should just be honest about their opposition to the new turnpikes.  They don't want more people building shit near them because they like the psuedo-rural character of the exurbs.  They can pretend they live in the country, but they're still only like 20 minutes from Costco.  Turnpikes bring sprawl and sprawl is bad if it gets built after I moved here.  Pretending it's about rocks or some lake that will not perceptibly change is intellectually dishonest.  They just want to make it harder for someone to turn the neighbor's ranch into a subdivision.

I'm just saying there are ways that both the rose rocks are protected and the highways can be built. It's mitigation, not an excuse to stop the highways. I do agree those using the rose rocks are claiming an overbroad area rather than just the specific areas where they are found at or near the surface.

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 08, 2022, 02:27:22 PM
They can pretend they live in the country, but they're still only like 20 minutes from Costco. 

Amusingly, it's more like an hour since the only Costco in Cleveland County is in Moore, but it would be much faster to get to it if the east-west turnpike is constructed.

^ And I'd be willing to bet at least some of those opposing this project would more than happily hop on it and set their cruise at 80 mph if it were to be built.

Quote from: triplemultiplexPeople should just be honest about their opposition to the new turnpikes.  They don't want more people building shit near them because they like the psuedo-rural character of the exurbs.  They can pretend they live in the country, but they're still only like 20 minutes from Costco.  Turnpikes bring sprawl and sprawl is bad if it gets built after I moved here.

Here's the thing, sprawl is spreading in OKC suburbs like Moore, Norman, Yukon and Mustang regardless of these proposed new turnpikes. The area where the East-West Connector is currently proposed absolutely will fill-in totally with new development in the years ahead. The OKC and Tulsa metro areas are pretty much the only places in Oklahoma gaining population. The rural areas as well as smaller cities and towns are all losing population. A good bit of that is going to OKC and Tulsa (as well as down to Texas).

Anyone buying a property on the edge of a popular suburb like Moore, expecting to preserve some kind of rural country life, is a fucking idiot.

Really it's hypocrisy for anyone to act like they're living in the country yet buy a home close enough to town they're able to get city water supply, city sewage lines, city trash removal, modern/fast Internet service, police, fire dept, etc. That's some all hat, no cattle nonsense. To truly live out in the sticks means having to rely on well water, septic tanks, 1990's quality Internet and on and on.

As I said, the suburbs of Moore, Norman, Newcastle, Mustang and Yukon will fill in any remaining gaps between them and OKC. Then development will just get more and more dense over time. That whole area can be like driving in Albuquerque where it's a whole lot of stoplight hell. Or they can allow these turnpikes to be built and make driving around the growing OKC area a lot easier.

Also, turnpikes don't necessarily invite sprawl. Some of it depends on how the turnpike is designed and the number of exits it has. The East-West Connector will have frontage roads most of its length because it will need it for the sprawl that's coming that direction regardless. The Southern extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike won't have frontage roads. At best, the Kickapoo extension will only spark development close to the 6 proposed exits to surface streets and highways with no controlled access.

Quote from: skluth on December 08, 2022, 12:01:06 PM

Quote from: US 89 on December 08, 2022, 12:26:16 AM
If I recall correctly, there are several water sources in Louisiana that are directly crossed by interstates on long viaducts, and nobody seems to care all that much...

This is like the rose rocks. People are grasping at whatever straws they can.

Those rose rocks are a legit rarity that should be protected and the highway plans should be (and can be) modified to accommodate them. I don't think it will affect the overall plan much. OTOH, the few people and businesses being displaced by these highways through mostly undeveloped rural exurban and rural land claiming these highways should be stopped because of the danger to Lake Thunderbird are, as you state, grasping at straws to stop the eminent domain process.

I'm not saying the rose rocks shouldn't be protected, but 90% of the people talking about them in the context of the turnpikes probably have no idea what they even are. All they care about is they can treat them like an endangered species to tie up the project in court until OTA abandons it. These NIMBYs know "because I don't like it"  isn't exactly a persuasive argument against planning and building stuff, so they have to find something to get "experts"  on board with to look more convincing. Who cares how much of that cause is legitimate or if it's really an important issue to them. The end justifies the means.

Quote from: US 89 on December 09, 2022, 01:40:03 AM

Quote from: skluth on December 08, 2022, 12:01:06 PM

Quote from: US 89 on December 08, 2022, 12:26:16 AM
If I recall correctly, there are several water sources in Louisiana that are directly crossed by interstates on long viaducts, and nobody seems to care all that much...

This is like the rose rocks. People are grasping at whatever straws they can.

Those rose rocks are a legit rarity that should be protected and the highway plans should be (and can be) modified to accommodate them. I don't think it will affect the overall plan much. OTOH, the few people and businesses being displaced by these highways through mostly undeveloped rural exurban and rural land claiming these highways should be stopped because of the danger to Lake Thunderbird are, as you state, grasping at straws to stop the eminent domain process.

I'm not saying the rose rocks shouldn't be protected, but 90% of the people talking about them in the context of the turnpikes probably have no idea what they even are. All they care about is they can treat them like an endangered species to tie up the project in court until OTA abandons it. These NIMBYs know "because I don't like it"  isn't exactly a persuasive argument against planning and building stuff, so they have to find something to get "experts"  on board with to look more convincing. Who cares how much of that cause is legitimate or if it's really an important issue to them. The end justifies the means.

Completely agree.

Latest press release remarking that OTA did NOT get permission from the US Bureau of Reclamation to cross 2 sections of its property near Lake Thunderbird:

Quote
Wednesday, Jan. 18, 2023, the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation formally responded to the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority's application to cross two sections of its property for turnpike expansion under the ACCESS Oklahoma plan. Citing Congressionally authorized purposes for the land, the agency denied OTA's application along the route of the South Extension turnpike as it does not meet the land's intended purposes. USBR owns the land on which The Norman Project (Lake Thunderbird, the Norman Dam and the associated water conveyance system) is located.

OTA's proposed alignment took into consideration the least impactful route, relating to homes, businesses and the environment. It was also the most beneficial for future traffic growth. OTA appreciates the feedback from the agency as well as its willingness to work with the OTA to identify other prospective crossings.  "This is the planning process working as it should. New alignments often get changed early on,"  says OTA Deputy Director and Chief Engineer Joe Echelle. "Now we'll start gathering information to make adjustments. We've got time since the South Extension is in the final phase of the 15-year, long-range plan."

The decision will require OTA modify the direction of the proposed alignment of the South Extension turnpike to avoid USBR fee title land. The agency did indicate willingness to work with OTA on an alignment across pipeline and flowage easements. OTA will continue to coordinate and plan the East-West Connector to ensure the easement crossings are planned, designed and constructed without interfering with the easement interests or the Norman Project's infrastructure or operation.

Construction of the Kickapoo Turnpike south extension is in the final phase of the 15 year plan? That's weird. I figured it might be one of the first projects built since it's in mostly rural area. I hope they at least work at securing ROW once a final alignment is chosen.

I wonder if the OTA will build out any of these turnpike projects in phases, such as an initial Super-2 configuration with the second pair of lanes added later.

Little bit of good news that Tim Gatz doesn't seem deterred by recent news.

QuoteOKLAHOMA CITY — The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority must push ahead with a proposed turnpike extension through Norman despite pending litigation, public opposition and an audit, Oklahoma Secretary of Transportation Tim Gatz said Wednesday.

All the pushback doesn't diminish the need to complete the metro's outer loop to move traffic safely and efficiently as the population continues to grow, Gatz said during a lunchtime forum hosted by the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber.

The U.S. Census Bureau reported the "phenomenal growth"  of 109,000 people in the Oklahoma City metro area from 2020 to 2023, he said.

"We're going to continue to see that growth,"  he said. "You've got to have reliever routes to manage that traffic."

Gatz is executive director of both the OTA and the Oklahoma Department of Transportation. He opened his remarks by saying the OTA is doing "everything we can to alleviate any concerns the attorney general has"  and to work with State Auditor and Inspector Cindy Byrd.

Last week, Oklahoma Attorney General Gentner Drummond requested an investigative audit of the OTA, citing concerns about its financial conduct that came from legislators, community leaders, residents and state employees. Drummond said the complaints include improper transfers between the OTA and ODOT; improper contracting and purchasing practices; and inadequate internal financial controls.

Asked after the forum about the negative response to the plan for a southern extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike — running from Interstate 40 in Oklahoma City to Interstate 35 near Purcell — Gatz said it was not unlike the pushback to the realignment of the I-40 Crosstown and the construction of the Kickapoo Turnpike.

"Making those kinds of improvements is never easy and it's something that we have to take very serious,"  he said. "I don't minimize those concerns."

Improvements to help alleviate traffic on I-35 and Interstate 44 in south Oklahoma City are part of Access Oklahoma, a $5 billion, 15-year, long-range plan to addresses highway infrastructure needs across the Oklahoma turnpike network.

"Typically, we do things in five-year increments,"  Gatz said. "With Access Oklahoma we developed a long-range vision of needs and strategies"  that will help transportation officials answer questions from the public about when to expect improvements where they live.

ODOT never has been able to meet all the highway needs of the state, Gatz said. "The Turnpike Authority can be a difference-maker."

It is funded by user fees — 40% come from out-of-state drivers — which helps ODOT extend the tax dollars and resources it receives, he said.

Not only do the turnpikes divert traffic off busy interstate and state highways, they also have spurred economic develop along their routes, Gatz said.

Chamber President and CEO Christy Gillenwater said infrastructure that is well thought out and intentional is important to business — in getting workers to work, moving product in and out, and attracting and retaining companies and talent.

The need for improved infrastructure to move traffic safely and efficiently extends statewide, Gatz said.

ODOT is widening a little more than 1 mile of 1-35 approaching the Red River in advance of a six-lane bridge project that is a partnership with the Texas Department of Transportation and the Chickasaw Nation, he said.

Texas is widening I-35 to a minimum of six lanes and that traffic will be coming north into Oklahoma. "What do we do with it? That falls to ODOT,"  Gatz said. "They're going to have to figure out how to continue to widen I-35."

- https://journalrecord.com/2023/03/22/gatz-turnpike-plan-must-press-forward-despite-opposition/

All the calls for investigative audits of OTA is a bunch of political theater and grand-standing. It's like these people are trying to get booked onto a cable "news" show and then doing some fund-raising via the publicity.

I hope Tim Gatz isn't kidding about the need to push ahead with the East-West Connector Turnpike between Moore and Norman. That's the one where ROW needs to be bought and secured most urgently. All of that area will fill in solid with development otherwise.

In order to build out that turnpike it will require at least one half of that Southern Extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike to also be built, that way it at least connects with I-40 and the existing Kickapoo Turnpike. The other part of the Kickapoo Extension down to Purcell could be phased in later. It could even be built as a Super-2 initially.

Nothing really new but another protest from the anti turnpike crowd at the Capitol:

https://kfor.com/news/local/opponents-of-the-turnpike-expansion-rally-at-oklahoma-state-capitol/

Not the best of news:

Press release:

***************

Oklahoma Turnpike Authority stops work on ACCESS Oklahoma projects
4/11/2023

Earlier today, the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority notified its board and its consultants that all work on the comprehensive, long-range plan, known as Access Oklahoma, will cease as of Friday, April 14. This stoppage includes the work on the Turner Turnpike as well as the widening and interchange additions for safety and community access on other highly used turnpikes across the state — projects that are high priorities to the board, OTA and the state as a whole.

While OTA remains in a strong financial position in large part due to exceptional accounting practices and financial controls in place, it can no longer continue funding work without a clear timetable for access to the bond market.

"I have mentioned several times, including during the recent board meeting, that our continued ACCESS Oklahoma project work would be impacted or even stopped due to our inability to enter the bond market,"  Secretary of Transportation and OTA Executive Director Tim Gatz told the board in the memo.

Several factors impacted this decision. In recent months, legal matters pending before the Supreme Court, including the "validation"  case, and an impending state investigative audit, have prevented access to the bond market.

The OTA will continue normal operations and maintenance to existing toll roads as well as moving forward with the conversion to cashless tolling. OTA will also continue to service existing debt. All of these activities are funded through toll receipts that are consistently meeting or exceeding financial projections while the ACCESS Oklahoma projects are funded through bond proceeds.

"Despite the tremendous transportation needs across the state, I feel it is prudent to take this difficult step,"  Gatz said. "This is an unfortunate decision that the OTA does not take lightly due to the critical nature of the ACCESS Oklahoma plan and the effect it will have on all our consultants and their employees as well as many Oklahoma communities and businesses that rely on these necessary transportation improvements. While these delays slow progress for the state, it doesn't eliminate the need for these critical transportation enhancements that will improve safety and the quality of life for all Oklahomans."

OTA remains committed to its statutory mission to relieve traffic congestion throughout the state through the construction of legislatively authorized turnpike projects which increase safety for the traveling public in a conservative and fiscally responsible manner.

"Once these roadblocks are resolved and a path to the bond market is cleared, I am confident we will resume ACCESS Oklahoma and begin moving forward on behalf of the people of Oklahoma,"  Gatz said.

OTA wins in Oklahoma Supreme Court against the Norman group fighting the Access Oklahoma Plan. Presumable the projects will be back on very soon.


https://www.fox23.com/news/local/oklahoma-supreme-court-rules-against-group-opposing-ota-construction-of-new-turnpikes/article_16fbbc6c-f986-11ed-af01-830531ee0707.html

Awesome!!  :clap:

Spoke a little too soon. It looks like the major ruling on whether this program actually proceeds or not hasn't happened yet: https://www.news9.com/story/646ce1a31a04dd072c7722cb/oklahoma-supreme-court-rules-against-group-opposing-ota-plan

Another victory for the OTA! :)

https://kfor.com/news/local/ok-supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-ota-in-open-meetings-act-challenge/

How many more legal challenges are standing in the way of the OTA getting ACCESS Oklahoma projects back on track? Will the OTA have the green light to start issuing bonds for these projects (particularly the East-West Connector going between Norman and Moore)?

Quote from: Bobby5280 on May 31, 2023, 11:10:53 PM
How many more legal challenges are standing in the way of the OTA getting ACCESS Oklahoma projects back on track? Will the OTA have the green light to start issuing bonds for these projects (particularly the East-West Connector going between Norman and Moore)?

The only one that matters now is the ruling on the bonds themselves. Given the OTA victory with the other suits, it looks promising for the turnpikes to resume.

Article about need for new roads:

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/opinion/2023/06/14/guest-turnpikes-are-a-nuisance-but-oklahoma-needs-new-roads/70308380007/

QuoteThe Oklahoma Turnpike Authority told the Oklahoma Supreme Court on Thursday that engineers believe they can agree on a new toll road route through Bureau of Land Reclamation easement around Lake Thunderbird after the agency rejected original plans for a Kickapoo south extension turnpike.

The authority also told the court in a new filing they don't believe they need renewed authorization from the state's Council of Bond Oversight before getting justices' validation to sell bonds for the $5 billion ACCESS Oklahoma expansion.

Both answers were required by the Oklahoma Supreme Court when it reversed a district court ruling that the turnpike authority willfully violated the Open Meetings Act when it unveiled plans for ACCESS Oklahoma on Feb. 22, 2022, without providing details of the expansion in advance.

The court asked the authority to explain by Thursday why they didn't request an extension from the Council on Bond Oversight for conditional approval to issue $500 million in revenue bonds for ACCESS Oklahoma. That approval expired in February.

The court also asked the turnpike authority to explain the Bureau of Reclamation's January denial of easements around Lake Thunderbird for construction of a new toll road and whether realignment of that route should be addressed before the validation proceeding is completed.

Joe Echelle, deputy director of the turnpike authority, said talks with the Bureau of Reclamation to agree on a new easement will begin after the bond sales are validated by the court. He said the authority also believes it can wait until after validation of bonds from the court before seeking new permission from the Council on Bond Oversight.

"We greatly appreciate the opportunity from the Court to provide additional information as part of this important proceeding,"  Echelle said. "While work on the comprehensive ACCESS Oklahoma long-range plan remains paused until the court issues its decision, the authority remains committed to improving the state's transportation system by addressing congestion issues through new reliever routes and updating turnpike infrastructure for the state's long-term needs."  

Norman residents worry about future status of their homes

Hundreds of Norman-area residents are concerned they will lose their homes and businesses to make way for new toll roads they say aren't needed. Attorney Richard Labarthe, who is representing residents trying to stop construction of the new toll roads, said the turnpike authority is falsely downplaying the importance of getting bond approval from the Council of Bond Oversight. 

"Essentially they're saying "˜Aw shucks, we didn't even need to go to COBO (Council of Bond Oversight) so don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain.' But they did, and they conditioned their approval, and now they're pretending that didn't happen."  

Labarthe said residents no longer accept anything said by turnpike officials as being 100% accurate. He also questioned whether the turnpike authority can negotiate a new route with the Bureau of Reclamation.

"The notion that they can make a hard right maneuver for many miles to get around the Bureau of Reclamation also seems incredibly speculative,"  Labarthe said. "They didn't do their homework up front, and now they're tap dancing to put a good face on it."  

- https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2023/06/15/oklahoma-turnpike-authority-access-new-route-bond-approval/70327819007/

Where are the anti-turnpike people in Norman coming up with this "hundreds of homes will be removed" shit? The East-West Connector Turnpike is proposed to run along Indian Hills Road. There isn't much built next to that road, based on 5/4/2023 imagery in Google Earth. There wouldn't be "hundreds" of structures removed. At most, it looks like a few dozen. And more of those existing structures are commercial properties rather than homes. There is a collection of ugly metal buildings a new interchange at I-44 would remove. Hammer Construction is the only other property between I-44 and I-35 and that's not exactly postcard material. East of I-35 there are some homes that would have to be bought and cleared. But it's not "hundreds" of homes. The anti-turnpike crowd is literally using misinformation when presenting their arguments. They would have people imagine a turnpike bulldozing through a more developed Norman corridor like Robinson or Main. Indian Hills Road is not that. 

And when they were building the Creek Turnpike one of the protestors said that people in New York would use it to ship AIDS-contaminated materials through town. This bunch has never been much in the business of presenting intelligent, factual arguments.

From Journal Record:

QuoteThe Oklahoma Turnpike Authority intends to adjust its route for a toll road located west of Lake Thunderbird if the state Supreme Court allows it to sell bonds for the project.

As prompted by the court, the authority last week filed a response to the pending bond validation proceeding for its $5 billion Access Oklahoma plan. The court asked the agency to explain why it allowed the approval of $500 million in bonds for the plan to expire and whether realignment of a southern extension toll road should be addressed before the validation proceeding completes.

If the state Supreme Court decides to validate the bonds, the OTA will resubmit an application to the Council of Bond Oversight and work with the Bureau of Reclamation to change the alignment of the planned south extension, which runs north and south just west of Lake Thunderbird, according to an OTA release.

Opponents of the OTA's extension proposal raised various concerns.

Michael Nash, who will take over as the councilor for Ward 5 in east Norman next month, said a south extension toll road in the Lake Thunderbird watershed is not legislatively authorized, referencing a law implemented in 1987 that allowed for certain turnpike expansion routes.

"The OTA believes the Supreme Court should approve whatever they put forward,"  Nash said. "It's the most brazen act of disregard for the public and for any process that we've established in our state government. It's just outright disrespectful to the people that live here."

State Rep. Danny Sterling, R-Tecumseh, said he's unsure how the OTA can adjust the route for the southern extension toll road.

There's just not that much room to go further west,"  Sterling said. "You're getting into the heart of east Norman residential areas."

Sterling said he believes a need for additional infrastructure exists in east Norman, but residents in the area of the new route deserve more transparency in the process than what was given to those in the path of the originally proposed plan.

State Sen. Mary Boren, D-Norman, said following the February 2022 rollout of the OTA's plan, Norman residents knew they were going to have to take care of their legal rights.

"They knew they weren't going to be able to trust the OTA to respect and honor their property rights,"  Boren said.

The court required the OTA's response following its ruling that reversed a district court decision that the authority violated the Open Meetings Act when it unveiled turnpike expansion plans at the tail-end of a February 2022 board meeting without sufficiently disclosing its details in a meeting agenda.

The Bureau of Reclamation in January denied the OTA's initial request for usage of federal land and easements across east Norman title land to connect its proposed south extension to an east-west connector road.

Following the denial, the OTA believes a route is possible in another area across its easements.

Reclamation told the OTA in January that it doesn't object to the authority routing the turnpike across Norman Project Pipeline and flowage easements if the crossings are designed in a way that doesn't interfere with "Reclamation's easement interests or impact operation, maintenance and replacement"  of Norman pipeline infrastructure.

Current plan to be slightly adjusted: (https://journalrecord.com/files/2023/06/je-turnpike-875x548.png)

- https://journalrecord.com/2023/06/21/oklahoma-turnpike-authority-adjusting-route-of-controversial-extension/?utm_term=OTA%20adjusting%20route%20of%20controversial%20extension&utm_campaign=Holt%3A%20New%20OKC%20arena%20plan%20coming%20this%20summer&utm_content=Editorial&utm_source=Act-On+Software&utm_medium=OKC&email=plutonicpanda@gmail.com

Will the two future toll roads have state highway designations? I imagine the OK 335 and OK 340 designations would be used if they become part of the state highway system. Whatever is decided, I think the existing Kickapoo Turnpike's exit numbers should be changed to correspond to the Turnpike's southern extension to Interstate 35. That is, unless the existing Kickapoo Turnpike becomes part of the proposed monstrous Interstate 240 beltway around the Oklahoma City area, in which the exit numbers would be changed from 130-149 to 21-40.

Probably. Of note is that the existing turnpike numbers mostly don't use the number of an Interstate they connect to, but rather a US or state highway they intersect or run sort of parallel to. If the numbering pattern used for the other routes holds, the east-west turnpike would be 337. The north-south one (including the Kickapoo) might be 362, 309, or 302.

It is unlikely OTA would use Interstate designations on these new turnpikes. However I think it would make more sense and probably boost the number of vehicles using those turnpikes if they did carry Interstate designations.

I don't mind I-240 being routed over the Kilpatrick Turnpike and its curvy extension to Airport Road. But I think it's a goofy idea to extend it East over to the Kickapoo Turnpike. I think the Kickapoo Turnpike and the East-West Connector should be labeled with an I-x44 route number. It would signal traffic taking I-44 thru OKC that the two turnpikes would be a worthy higher speed bypass. I'm not sure what to do with the Kickapoo Turnpike's Southern extension down to I-35. It could be given a I-x35 number.

I don't support using x44 numbers in Oklahoma City since they are the only numbers Lawton and Tulsa would be able to use (although Tulsa will soon have the option of x42s or x50s or whatever number US-412 gets).

The only x44 numbers available are 644 and 844, since 244 and 444 are in use (I don't think an odd first digit Interstate designation would be practical in this situation). Since many of the state's toll roads have adopted 3xx state highway designations, I would expect the Kickapoo Turnpike extension and the new east-west toll road to do the same.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 03:20:19 AM
I don't support using x44 numbers in Oklahoma City since they are the only numbers Lawton and Tulsa would be able to use (although Tulsa will soon have the option of x42s or x50s or whatever number US-412 gets).

Lawton?????

Do you really think Rogers Lane would be upgraded to the point it could become an Interstate highway?

Rogers Lane should be upgraded to Interstate standards. The current road is sub-standard, even as a US Highway (no shoulders, other safety issues). But Lawton gets the shit end of the stick in terms of highway funding and attention from law-makers. So, such an upgrade is not likely to ever happen, unless Lawton miraculously goes through a big surge of population growth. It will probably take a multi-fatality head-on collision to wake up the old farts in OKC about Rogers Lane. And even then they'll likely do nothing about it.

If funding and politics weren't an issue Lawton would probably have two freeway spurs off I-44 by now. Rogers Lane is one do-able upgrade. The other would be a spur starting from South of the Lawton Regional Airport and running roughly diagonal up to the Western outskirts where the enormous Goodyear tire factory and several other industrial sites are located. Goodyear has been complaining loudly about the condition of 82nd Street going South of Lee Blvd. Lots of trucks take that route South down to OK-36 and over to I-44 to avoid Lawton traffic. But 82nd Street is just beat to shit. Supposedly studies are on-going for a new truck route to the South of Lawton over to I-44. Such a thing could be built as a Super 2 with at-grade intersections, then grade separated exits and then 4-lane divided -kind of like what has been happening with the Duncan Bypass.

There are also plans to extend Goodyear Blvd farther North past Old Cache Road and up to a proposed freeway exit on US-62. I think funding for that project is approved and should be built within the next couple or so years. That would give trucks from the industrial park somewhat faster access to I-44 via Rogers Lane. There's fewer stop lights along the way. But Rogers Lane in its current state is not equipped to take on an additional big surge of heavy truck traffic. The signaled intersections at 67th Street and 38th Street have sight line issues. I can easily imagine semi trucks t-boning vehicles entering Rogers Lane at 67th Street or semis rear ending groups of cars as they come over the hills toward the 38th Street intersection blindly down in a valley.

Quote from: rte66man on June 22, 2023, 02:04:07 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 03:20:19 AM
I don't support using x44 numbers in Oklahoma City since they are the only numbers Lawton and Tulsa would be able to use (although Tulsa will soon have the option of x42s or x50s or whatever number US-412 gets).

Lawton?????

Do you really think Rogers Lane would be upgraded to the point it could become an Interstate highway?

Maybe. Who the hell knows what's going to happen in the next 100 years. Nevada doesn't even appear in the Yellow Book at all and now it has three 3dis.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 03:20:19 AM
I don't support using x44 numbers in Oklahoma City since they are the only numbers Lawton and Tulsa would be able to use (although Tulsa will soon have the option of x42s or x50s or whatever number US-412 gets).

Doubt 50 gets used if it is upgraded; they save the numbers divisible by 10 for what are considered major cross country interstates.  I don't see it becoming 50 unless there's a master plan to run this completely coast to coast.

Also, I-42 is planned for use in NC I believe, so I-46 it might have to be.

Yes, but there's the issue of "where else would you put 50 that is both a plausible place to put an Interstate and also won't conflict with US-50". About the only place that satisfies that is...Tulsa.

Also, I can't remember who it was, but I read someone say they talked to an official at one of the public meetings and they said 42 was the number they were considering asking for. Who knows if that person knew what they were talking about, though.

Isn't there a driveway in North Carolina called I-42? This highway needs a unique number. I'm still rooting for I-50.

Quote from: bugo on June 29, 2023, 03:24:07 AM
Isn't there a driveway in North Carolina called I-42? This highway needs a unique number. I'm still rooting for I-50.

It's proposed, but not an interstate yet.

https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/2022/2022-03-16-i-42-coming-us-70-corridor.aspx

Quote from: BigOkie on June 29, 2023, 06:20:43 AM

Quote from: bugo on June 29, 2023, 03:24:07 AM
Isn't there a driveway in North Carolina called I-42? This highway needs a unique number. I'm still rooting for I-50.

It's proposed, but not an interstate yet.

https://www.ncdot.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/2022/2022-03-16-i-42-coming-us-70-corridor.aspx

It was approved by the AASHTO and FHWA seven years ago, two segments have been fully authorized to be sign-posted (Clayton and Goldsboro), and the highway serves a major traffic corridor, certainly one that carries double the traffic that US-412 does... not a "driveway" . Several segments are already built to interstate standards, with additional ones currently under construction.

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 29, 2023, 01:51:06 AM
Also, I can't remember who it was, but I read someone say they talked to an official at one of the public meetings and they said 42 was the number they were considering asking for. Who knows if that person knew what they were talking about, though.

As North Carolina has shown as, what they ask for vs. what they are given may be two separate things.

Seems like they should just go get approval for whatever number they want from FHWA first and then apply to AASHTO lol.

Traditionally, Interstates with a 0 or a 5 have been assigned to long-distance corridors, the exceptions being Interstate 30 and Interstate 45. As this thread is about ACCESS Oklahoma, let's return talk about the proposed Interstate 35-to-Interstate 49 to the Proposed US 412 Upgrade thread.

Quote from: Scott5114Yes, but there's the issue of "where else would you put 50 that is both a plausible place to put an Interstate and also won't conflict with US-50". About the only place that satisfies that is...Tulsa.

I could counter that with the complaints I've heard over the years about I-30 and I-45 having major Interstate designations, despite relatively short lengths. Never mind the fact both connect to the sprawling and highly populated DFW and Houston metros.

This proposed Interstate from Springdale, thru Tulsa and to a dead-end at I-35 is not a major route and does not connect to major destinations. At least I-30 and I-45 connect to other major routes going the same general direction. The proposed AR/OK Interstate does not.

Quote from: The GhostbusterTraditionally, Interstates with a 0 or a 5 have been assigned to long-distance corridors, the exceptions being Interstate 30 and Interstate 45. As this thread is about ACCESS Oklahoma, let's return talk about the proposed Interstate 35-to-Interstate 49 to the Proposed US 412 Upgrade thread.

This US-412 Interstate doesn't technically fit into the ACCESS Oklahoma plan. Although the North section of the Gilcrease Turnpike could end up being a leg on this new Interstate if the new urbanist types succeed in getting parts of the IDL removed in downtown Tulsa.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 29, 2023, 07:29:26 PM

Quote from: Scott5114Yes, but there's the issue of "where else would you put 50 that is both a plausible place to put an Interstate and also won't conflict with US-50". About the only place that satisfies that is...Tulsa.

I could counter that with the complaints I've heard over the years about I-30 and I-45 having major Interstate designations, despite relatively short lengths. Never mind the fact both connect to the sprawling and highly populated DFW and Houston metros.

This proposed Interstate from Springdale, thru Tulsa and to a dead-end at I-35 is not a major route and does not connect to major destinations. At least I-30 and I-45 connect to other major routes going the same general direction. The proposed AR/OK Interstate does not.

Quote from: The GhostbusterTraditionally, Interstates with a 0 or a 5 have been assigned to long-distance corridors, the exceptions being Interstate 30 and Interstate 45. As this thread is about ACCESS Oklahoma, let's return talk about the proposed Interstate 35-to-Interstate 49 to the Proposed US 412 Upgrade thread.

This US-412 Interstate doesn't technically fit into the ACCESS Oklahoma plan. Although the North section of the Gilcrease Turnpike could end up being a leg on this new Interstate if the new urbanist types succeed in getting parts of the IDL removed in downtown Tulsa.

Everyone keeps talking about getting rid of the IDL (at least the north leg of it) in Tulsa.  I just don't think it will happen.  There would be way too much pushback.

OTA won in the Oklahoma Supreme Court today, 6-3. The projects are all back on.

Quote from: swake on August 01, 2023, 01:07:25 PM
OTA won in the Oklahoma Supreme Court today, 6-3. The projects are all back on.

Excellent news. The Oklahoma government does something right for a change.

Very good news. I can't wait to see dirt turning especially for the South OKCMetro Projects.

Non paywalled article: https://kfor.com/news/local/state-supreme-court-approves-oklahoma-turnpike-authority-bonds-for-new-toll-roads/

Here's some stupidity from the anti-turnpike crowd for you...

https://www.normantranscript.com/news/resistance-accuses-turnpike-authority-of-spying-records-indicate-agency-monitoring-social-media-posts/article_175ec1f6-37c3-11ee-8de5-1bcd32eb3db4.html

Quote from: The Norman Transcript
Resistance accuses Turnpike Authority of 'spying.' Records indicate agency monitoring social media posts
by Mindy Ragan Wood, the Norman Transcript

An opposition group, Pike Off OTA, has accused the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority of spying on its members and published the agency's reports of dissidents' comments on social media.

The group formed in March 2022 in resistance against OTA's ACCESS plan to construct two new toll roads in Norman. Pike Off members released internal agency reports on members' social media activity Thursday. Its members claim personal information is being stored by the agency, which is "personally compromising"  information.

Hired by OTA during the ACCESS promotion, Jones PR, through attorney Chris Scaperlanda of the McAfee & Taft law firm, called the accusations "false and defamatory statements"  because the information it collected was publicly accessible.

OTA spokeswoman Lisa Salin told The Transcript the agency monitors publicly available information to ensure misinformation and inaccuracies are addressed.

"Unfortunately, a small group of citizens has gone to unseen-before lengths to spread misinformation intentionally designed to mislead and derail true civil discourse," Salim said. "This harms everyone involved."

Keeping track of what is said on public Facebook posts is "spying" now...I can't even...

Why does OTA even feel the need to do that though?  Is that really their place?
I thought there is supposed to be great peril in government agencies making lists of 'malcontents'. I feel like in a different context, the monitoring of a Facebook group by a government agency would be alarming to the same people who brush it aside in this instance.

I would think that "the government knowing the opinions of their constituents" would generally be a good thing.

Unlike something like the FBI or NSA, it's not like the Turnpike Authority has any means at all to visit any sort of negative consequences on the people opposed to the turnpike. They can't, say, eminent domain protestors' homes if they aren't in the turnpike corridor. (And if they had a choice, the path of least resistance would be to avoid taking the home of someone who was so spun up they were participating in online groups about the topic.)

And, of course, if all that being said the protestors don't want OTA to know that they are against the Authority's plans (which seems counterproductive to me) or what they are doing, they could always...not post publicly on Facebook about it? Tulsans Against Turnpikes managed to form coherent, if unsuccessful, opposition to the Creek Turnpike in 1989, long before Facebook existed. And of course there were dozens of successful freeway revolts in other states in the 70s and 80s.

Here's a map from ODOT showing the new setup. I-240, I-344 and OK 152 will end at the same interchange, which is silly.

(https://i.imgur.com/3qQkZGt.jpg)

Should be I-644, reserving I-844 for Lawton if it ever gets a loop.

Quote from: TXtoNJ on September 11, 2023, 12:55:36 PM
Should be I-644, reserving I-844 for Lawton if it ever gets a loop.

It should be an x35 or an x40, For the immediate future, Tulsa only has one through Interstate, and it's silly and foolish and short sighted to waste x44s in OKC when we will eventually need them in Tulsa. I-42 may not be completely finished for 20 more years or so, and who knows when it will be signed.

Quote from: bugo on September 11, 2023, 12:30:47 PM
Here's a map from ODOT showing the new setup. I-240, I=344 and OK 152 will end at the same interchange, which is silly.

(https://i.imgur.com/3qQkZGt.jpg)

If the state is doing that to the Kilpatrick then they should apply for the Creek Turnpike to be I-644 and when the Gilcrease is done it can be I-242

Also, remove I-444 and route I-42 along the current I-444 route on the IDL downtown.

What happened to the Interstate 240 designation being extended into a 91-mile beltway around the Oklahoma City area? Did that proposal fizzle out? Besides, if the John Kilpatrick Turnpike were to become Interstate 344, the designation should continue to Interstate 44 (Exit 116B). Having 240 become 344 at OK 152 makes no sense whatsoever. Also, I find it more likely that the Kickapoo Turnpike would be designated OK 335, not Interstate 335.

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 11, 2023, 02:22:09 PM
What happened to the Interstate 240 designation being extended into a 91-mile beltway around the Oklahoma City area? Did that proposal fizzle out? Besides, if the John Kilpatrick Turnpike were to become Interstate 344, the designation should continue to Interstate 44 (Exit 116B). Having 240 become 344 at OK 152 makes no sense whatsoever. Also, I find it more likely that the Kickapoo Turnpike would be designated OK 335, not Interstate 335.

They got approval for it, and then never signed it. I guess they realized what a silly idea it was.

They aren't the only ones. I thought the 240 proposal was silly too. I would have been fine with OK 152 and the John Kilpatrick Turnpike getting the 240 designation (or maybe the Interstate 440 designation), but I thought making the Kickapoo Turnpike part of 240 would have been a bridge too far. Given the Kickapoo Turnpike's proposed southern extension, giving that toll road a different number seemed more logical to me.

Quote from: bugo on September 11, 2023, 12:30:47 PM
Here's a map from ODOT showing the new setup. I-240, I=344 and OK 152 will end at the same interchange, which is silly.

I have doubts that AASHTO and FHWA will approve the I-344 designation.  The I-335 designation also seems unlikely to get fully approved until there's a connection to I-35.

Quote from: Revive 755 on September 11, 2023, 09:18:50 PM
I have doubts that AASHTO and FHWA will approve the I-344 designation.  The I-335 designation also seems unlikely to get fully approved until there's a connection to I-35.

Why do you think that? I am hoping that they reject the I-42 designation in favor of I-46, 48 or 50 because it duplicates an existing (sorta) Interstate. And the whole Kilpatrick Turnpike should be a part of I-240.

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 11, 2023, 02:22:09 PM
If the John Kilpatrick Turnpike were to become Interstate 344, the designation should continue to Interstate 44 (Exit 116B). Having 240 become 344 at OK 152 makes no sense whatsoever.

+++1

Extending 240 to the Kilpatrick is confusing. I understand they did this to distinguish between toll and free roads, but "YOU SO STUPID" ODOT.

Quote from: rte66man on September 12, 2023, 08:16:47 AM

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 11, 2023, 02:22:09 PM
If the John Kilpatrick Turnpike were to become Interstate 344, the designation should continue to Interstate 44 (Exit 116B). Having 240 become 344 at OK 152 makes no sense whatsoever.

+++1

Extending 240 to the Kilpatrick is confusing. I understand they did this to distinguish between toll and free roads, but "YOU SO STUPID" ODOT.

Also agreed  :thumbsup:

Furthermore, extending IH 240 west over SH 152 should require addressing the weaving traffic pattern between the current west end of IH 240 and the east end of SH 152. You have 0.7 miles to make the move along IH 44 eastbound and 1.1 miles on westbound.

Quote from: TXtoNJShould be I-644, reserving I-844 for Lawton if it ever gets a loop.

First, the state government would have to stop treating Lawton as a complete after-thought. Until then nothing is going to happen.

I could certainly make a case for Lawton needing a "loop" of sorts, but the route would be more triangle shaped than loopy.

Rogers Lane (aka US-62) needs to be upgraded to Interstate standards, partly for safety reasons since the current 4-lane "divided" street is substandard in several categories. That would create an East-West spur off I-44 -perhaps either a "I-144" or "I-944." It could extend to Cache or even as far as Snyder and the US-183 interchange with US-62. A freeway upgrade would be fairly easy to build. Two interchanges are already existing at Sheridan Road and Fort Sill Blvd. A new limited access interchange is badly needed at 38th Street since that intersection is down in a valley hidden from on-coming Rogers Lane traffic in both directions. Traffic back-ups at the intersection lead to frequent rear-end collisions. The intersections at 67th Street and 82nd Street have serious safety deficiencies.

Lawton badly needs a Southern bypass from I-44 to its huge industrial park on the West side of town (and a connection to the US-62 freeway West of Lawton). That could be a "I-644" or something.

A new cobalt refining facility will be built on Lawton's West side. That goes along with other factories that have been built out there. Goodyear's Lawton plant is the largest manufacturing facility in Oklahoma; expansions over the past 20 years have put it near 3 million square feet of space. The industrial park out there produces a lot of truck traffic. The trucks have to use local streets to get to I-44. Most avoid Lawton by taking 82nd Street to OK-36 and then going East to I-44. The 82nd Street road going South of Lee Blvd is absolutely beat to shit. Goodyear plant bosses and truck drivers have been raising hell about it with the county. What they need is a new diagonal route from I-44 just South of Lawton going Northwest to that industrial park -even if it just starts out as an upgrade-able Super-2 road.

Another sales pitch for that South bypass: it would help some big wigs escort VIPs from Lawton's airport to nicer parts of town out West without them having to see the older, more crappy areas along Lee Blvd closer to I-44. Yesterday at a civic club meeting I listened to the CEO of one of our hospitals describe how hard it is recruiting new doctors and specialists. The CEO said they struggle picking which route to take from the airport to the hospital campus because the most logical choices (such as SW Lee Blvd) are so freaking ugly. The visual blight is liable to scare away these prospects.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 12, 2023, 01:52:51 PM

Quote from: TXtoNJShould be I-644, reserving I-844 for Lawton if it ever gets a loop.

First, the state government would have to stop treating Lawton as a complete after-thought. Until then nothing is going to happen.

I could certainly make a case for Lawton needing a "loop" of sorts, but the route would be more triangle shaped than loopy.

Rogers Lane (aka US-62) needs to be upgraded to Interstate standards, partly for safety reasons since the current 4-lane "divided" street is substandard in several categories. That would create an East-West spur off I-44 -perhaps either a "I-144" or "I-944." It could extend to Cache or even as far as Snyder and the US-183 interchange with US-62. A freeway upgrade would be fairly easy to build. Two interchanges are already existing at Sheridan Road and Fort Sill Blvd. A new limited access interchange is badly needed at 38th Street since that intersection is down in a valley hidden from on-coming Rogers Lane traffic in both directions. Traffic back-ups at the intersection lead to frequent rear-end collisions. The intersections at 67th Street and 82nd Street have serious safety deficiencies.

Lawton badly needs a Southern bypass from I-44 to its huge industrial park on the West side of town (and a connection to the US-62 freeway West of Lawton). That could be a "I-644" or something.

A new cobalt refining facility will be built on Lawton's West side. That goes along with other factories that have been built out there. Goodyear's Lawton plant is the largest manufacturing facility in Oklahoma; expansions over the past 20 years have put it near 3 million square feet of space. The industrial park out there produces a lot of truck traffic. The trucks have to use local streets to get to I-44. Most avoid Lawton by taking 82nd Street to OK-36 and then going East to I-44. The 82nd Street road going South of Lee Blvd is absolutely beat to shit. Goodyear plant bosses and truck drivers have been raising hell about it with the county. What they need is a new diagonal route from I-44 just South of Lawton going Northwest to that industrial park -even if it just starts out as an upgrade-able Super-2 road.

Another sales pitch for that South bypass: it would help some big wigs escort VIPs from Lawton's airport to nicer parts of town out West without them having to see the older, more crappy areas along Lee Blvd closer to I-44. Yesterday at a civic club meeting I listened to the CEO of one of our hospitals describe how hard it is recruiting new doctors and specialists. The CEO said they struggle picking which route to take from the airport to the hospital campus because the most logical choices (such as SW Lee Blvd) are so freaking ugly. The visual blight is liable to scare away these prospects.

I would propose to renumber (as it is not signed) I-444 downtown as I-442 and free up I-444 for Lawton or the Creek Turnpike was well.

Quote from: bugo on September 11, 2023, 09:59:00 PM

Quote from: Revive 755 on September 11, 2023, 09:18:50 PM
I have doubts that AASHTO and FHWA will approve the I-344 designation.  The I-335 designation also seems unlikely to get fully approved until there's a connection to I-35.

Why do you think that?

I don't see that number change at OK 152 going over well.  Plus the 344 route is much more of a bypass/loop route than a spur - especially the way it is starting back towards I-44 before changing to I-240.

As for the proposed I-335:  There seems to be a general precedent against having 3di's not connected to either their parent or a 3di of with the same last two digits (I-278 being an exception due to all of the connections being cancelled).

Course if AASHTO is in a similar mood that they were when they allowed US 412 and US 400 to be created . . .

I-369 in Texas currently connects with I-30 but not I-69. But yes, they're rare.

Quote from: bugoI-369 in Texas currently connects with I-30 but not I-69. But yes, they're rare.

Considering the success the OTA has had in court, an "I-335" not connecting to I-35 looks like it would be a temporary situation. ACCESS Oklahoma is supposed to be a 15 year plan, but I would expect the East-West Connector between Norman and Moore to get built much sooner than later. The South extension down to I-35 near Purcell might be able to proceed quickly as well.

Quote from: swakeI would propose to renumber (as it is not signed) I-444 downtown as I-442 and free up I-444 for Lawton or the Creek Turnpike was well.

Yeah, I don't think the IDL in downtown Tulsa is worthy of keeping the I-444 designation especially since they never bothered to sign the route.

I don't like "I-444" for anything in Lawton since the 4xx number seems more major in status out of 3-digit routes. In the fantasy world of Lawton getting Rogers Lane upgraded to Interstate quality and getting a Southern bypass the two routes would probably carry odd numbers, even if the South bypass route ended at the US-62 route. If we followed the same example as NY state with I-90 the route numbers would go higher farther and farther West. That would give Lawton something like "I-944" and "I-744."

I think the Creek Turnpike in Tulsa would be perfect to claim ownership of I-444. The Kilpatrick Turnpike in OKC would have been a good place for a "I-444" label as well, but the more I think about it the more I like "I-440" for the North half of the Kilpatrick Turnpike. Let I-240 consume the recent Kilpatrick extension South of I-40 and Airport Road.

https://www.newson6.com/story/64ff9c2ca5a32507237ca02c/bond-oversight-council-gives-ota-green-light-for-turnpike-expansion-plan

Quote
BOND OVERSIGHT COUNCIL GIVES OTA GREEN LIGHT FOR TURNPIKE EXPANSION PLAN

The bond money will fund access Oklahoma, a 15-year project that would include widening the Turner, Will Rogers and John Kilpatrick turnpikes as well as adding and enhancing access points on existing turnpikes.

The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority received approval to enter the bond market for its turnpike expansion plan. The decision came Monday at the State Capitol during a meeting with the council on bond oversight.

The approval allows the OTA to begin the process of selling $500 million dollars in bonds.

The bond money will fund access Oklahoma, a 15-year project that would include widening the Turner, Will Rogers and John Kilpatrick turnpikes as well as adding and enhancing access points on existing turnpikes. The bonds are the debt of the OTA and will be serviced through toll revenues.

The project was stalled earlier this year due to legal matters with the State Supreme Court, including a "validation" case and impeding state investigative audit. Those opposed to the State Supreme Court ruling and Monday's approval by the council were in attendance to voice their concerns.

"I find it crazy that the council for bond oversight would overlook such egregious financial problems and just common sense,"  said Amy Serato, President of Pike Off OTA. "Statute requirements say they have to have traffic and revenue studies done, they have to have environmental studies done before they get the bonds."

Tim Gatz, Oklahoma Secretary of Transportation, said there are several conditions the oversight council set in place including a petition for rehearing with the Supreme Court.

"They certainly identified that as a condition of the Turnpike Authority moving into the bond market and we will be absolutely 100% mindful of that and we will satisfy that requirement before we do and that is one of the variables that has to be resolved before we can move forward,"  Gatz said.

Gatz said he hopes to have those conditions resolved at the earliest, in October.

Quote from: bugo on September 11, 2023, 12:30:47 PM
Here's a map from ODOT showing the new setup. I-240, I=344 and OK 152 will end at the same interchange, which is silly.

(https://i.imgur.com/3qQkZGt.jpg)

Well this is just ridiculous.  First of all, they have 240 randomly turning into 344 where OK 152 bails south.  I really hope that's just lazy cartography because someone has the Kilpatrick as a single shapefile object.  Obviously that should happen where the Kilpatrick hits I-40.
Second, I don't like odd first digit 3di's for belt/bypass facilities.  Yeah I know there is precedent out there, but when you're making a loop that connects interstates, evens are preferred, thank you.
And then, 335 for the Kickapoo?  Um, no.  Either it's never going to connect to I-35 despite OTA's ambition or if it does, then an even first digit is more appropriate for the reason I stated above.

Instead of making the John Kilpatrick Turnpike Interstate 344 and Airport Road Interstate 240, maybe both could be given the Interstate 440 designation. After all, the 440 designation hasn't been used since it was renumbered to becoming part of 240 (and later Interstate 44) in 1975.

Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 13, 2023, 11:28:27 AM

Quote from: bugo on September 11, 2023, 12:30:47 PM
Here's a map from ODOT showing the new setup. I-240, I=344 and OK 152 will end at the same interchange, which is silly.

(https://i.imgur.com/3qQkZGt.jpg)

Well this is just ridiculous.  First of all, they have 240 randomly turning into 344 where OK 152 bails south.  I really hope that's just lazy cartography because someone has the Kilpatrick as a single shapefile object.  Obviously that should happen where the Kilpatrick hits I-40.

It makes more sense if you look at the actual interchanges. The through movement at the changeover point favors SH-152/future I-240.

(https://i.imgur.com/jvHiXEW.png)
(green line is Kilpatrick Turnpike/future I-344, blue line is SH-152/future I-240)

Meanwhile the I-40/Kilpatrick Turnpike interchange is a standard cloverleaf (yes, we're still building them because we hate ourselves), so it would be awfully artificial to have a designation change in the middle of it.
(https://i.imgur.com/t9c7PPN.png)

Quote
And then, 335 for the Kickapoo?  Um, no.  Either it's never going to connect to I-35 despite OTA's ambition or if it does, then an even first digit is more appropriate for the reason I stated above.

FIRST DIGIT 3 MEANS TOLL IN OKLAHOMA

please let us keep the only sort-of-rule our numbering system has (I'm willing to pretend SH-325 doesn't exist for the fantasy of having an honest-to-God numbering rule)

Quote from: Scott5114Meanwhile the I-40/Kilpatrick Turnpike interchange is a standard cloverleaf (yes, we're still building them because we hate ourselves), so it would be awfully artificial to have a designation change in the middle of it.

There are other cloverleaf or stack interchanges where the thru lanes are numbered as one Interstate and turn into a different numbered Interstate on the other side of the interchange. There's I-280 and I-680 on either side of US-101 in San Jose.

It's more artificial to have two different Interstate routes end at a partial Y interchange with a state highway. It would be especially ridiculous to have I-240 extended a couple or so miles only to have it end at a traffic signal at SW 59th Street near Mustang. Why even extend I-240 at all? Just leave the highway numbered as SH-152. It's not like that freeway stump can ever be extended through the middle of Mustang and then back up to I-40 between Yukon and El Reno. I-240 should stay ended at I-44. The only way it should be extended West is if the I-240 designation meets I-40 in Yukon. Otherwise leave it alone.

Also, I would not be surprised if the AASHTO rejected the Interstate designation along the Kilpatrick Turnpike South of the I-40 interchange. They'll likely tell the OTA to sign that segment as a OK-3xx route instead (the OK-344 route is already taken by the Gilcrease Expressway).

The notion "3xx" means toll road doesn't really work either since much of I-44 in Oklahoma is a toll road. The Interstate highway system is a national-based system. Its numbering rules should not be superseded by a state tollway concept.

Meh. I don't really care about the first digit even/odd "rule" in the Interstate system because it's so open to interpretation it's not any more useful for telling you anything than the first digit in the US route system. If this I-335 gets extended to Purcell it will be no different than I-335 in Kansas (southern terminus at I-35, ends at another Interstate that isn't I-35).

At least starting with a 3 tells you something about the route if you're in Oklahoma (except the Panhandle).

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 13, 2023, 01:01:42 PM
FIRST DIGIT 3 MEANS TOLL IN OKLAHOMA

please let us keep the only sort-of-rule our numbering system has (I'm willing to pretend SH-325 doesn't exist for the fantasy of having an honest-to-God numbering rule)

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 13, 2023, 02:13:25 PM
At least starting with a 3 tells you something about the route if you're in Oklahoma (except the Panhandle).

As if anyone needed another reason to hate on Boise City...

Anyway, the obvious solution is to the exception would be to toll OK-325.

Looks like we're know more in October hopefully about a new timeline and when things will really start moving forward:

https://www.newson6.com/story/64ff9c2ca5a32507237ca02c/bond-oversight-council-gives-ota-green-light-for-turnpike-expansion-plan

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2023, 02:23:45 PM
Anyway, the obvious solution is to the exception would be to toll OK-325.

They might even recoup the cost of the Pikepass readers before they need to be replaced!

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 13, 2023, 06:31:10 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2023, 02:23:45 PM
Anyway, the obvious solution is to the exception would be to toll OK-325.

They might even recoup the cost of the Pikepass readers before they need to be replaced!

Heh.

The new tags start rolling out in November. I work for a company that reads the RFID tags in trucks to check them in and out of our plants. We have a quote for new readers ($4,000) and another quote for retrofitting older readers for the new standard ($1,000). Ours are not as powerful as the ones OTA uses so their costs are likely to be higher.

Makes me wonder whether KTA is using new readers for their cashless tolling project.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 13, 2023, 01:01:42 PM
It makes more sense if you look at the actual interchanges. The through movement at the changeover point favors SH-152/future I-240.

Bah, plenty of interstates exit off themselves.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 13, 2023, 01:01:42 PM
Meanwhile the I-40/Kilpatrick Turnpike interchange is a standard cloverleaf (yes, we're still building them because we hate ourselves), so it would be awfully artificial to have a designation change in the middle of it.

St. Louis and Twin Cities beltlines say hello.

The 3xx thing; surely y'all can make an exception if you're making them interstates.  You've got more 3di worthy turnpikes in the state than you do parent routes at this point, so something should give.  Pick second turnpike first digit number to use, maybe.

Does Oklahoma's DOT have any plans to demolish the abandoned pavement that served as the JKT's southern terminus at SW 15th St. between 2001 and 2020? Or will it remain in place like the abandoned Interstate 44 pavement that was bypassed by construction of the Creek Turnpike in Tulsa?

With the way they're wanting to attract movie and TV productions the over-grown roadways of those abandoned toll road segments could function as shooting locations in apocalyptic shows.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 04, 2023, 01:22:58 AM
With the way they're wanting to attract movie and TV productions the over-grown roadways of those abandoned toll road segments could function as shooting locations in apocalyptic shows.

Plus all those bombed-out little towns you're always talking about in the depopulating areas of the state. ;)

Those dying towns would work great as shooting locations for post-apocalypse genre shows as well as horror movies. One problem is the crews and actors would have to do some driving well outside OKC or Tulsa to reach the best locations. They wouldn't have access to major city amenities out there in the boonies.

I could easily imagine a movie director or TV series show-runner ordering some 2nd unit crew people to visit the authentic "bombed out" towns to shoot a lot of footage. Then they would re-create the town digitally and use digital back-lot techniques to place the actors there via green screens. It would be cheaper to just go to the real towns and shoot the scenes there. But that would require some big city people to "rough it" for awhile in a small town.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 04, 2023, 02:14:09 PM
I could easily imagine a movie director or TV series show-runner ordering some 2nd unit crew people to visit the authentic "bombed out" towns to shoot a lot of footage. Then they would re-create the town digitally and use digital back-lot techniques to place the actors there via green screens. It would be cheaper to just go to the real towns and shoot the scenes there. But that would require some big city people to "rough it" for awhile in a small town.

That happens because camera operators are union labor but CGI editors are not.

They should outdo Texas and post a 100MPH speed limit on the Kickapoo as an OKC bypass. Especially once it's extended south and north. It'd be like the 130 on steroids.

Quote from: Scott5114That happens because camera operators are union labor but CGI editors are not.

A great deal of movie and TV production moved to New Mexico and Georgia to get around some (but not all) unions. Then there are shows which are produced in Canada or Mexico. And then there's others shot in far off places like Australia and New Zealand. A lot of that is done to get away from the Teamsters. It's funny seeing cities like Vancouver, BC or Toronto pretend to be New York City.

In the 1990's and going into the 2000's it was American-based outfits like ILM and Digital Domain that dominated CGI work. Only a few shows, such as The Simpsons TV series were farming out production work to the Far East. WETA Digital (now known as Wētā FX) proved big CG productions, such as The Lord of the Rings Trilogy could be done far outside the US.

Steady improvements to computer hardware took away the need to use high end UNIX-based computer systems -like those Silicon Graphics workstations that handled so much pioneering work in the early 1990's. Today most render farms are built using ordinary off the shelf PCs running either Windows or some flavor of Linux.

Far less custom-engineered software is being developed for movies. So much can be done with existing apps like Maya and Houdini. Naturally, movie and TV productions have been farming out more and more CG work to firms based in places like India where sequences can be produced dirt cheap. The trends are easy to see in the end credits of movies.

Quote from: Plutonic PandaThey should outdo Texas and post a 100MPH speed limit on the Kickapoo as an OKC bypass. Especially once it's extended south and north. It'd be like the 130 on steroids.

I'd probably feel okay about that only if motorists could put down their damned phones.

Quote from: bugo on September 11, 2023, 12:30:47 PM
Here's a map from ODOT showing the new setup. I-240, I-344 and OK 152 will end at the same interchange, which is silly.
(Map removed, we've seen it.)

THIS is why we have the AASHTO Special Committee on US Route Numbering, and the FHWA.  Hopefully both the association, and the agency will stop this insane Oklahoma request.  I mean, they shot down NC's sensible I-36 and forced I-42 on them, etc.  (I had no problem with I-87, as that made sense regionally more than I-89 which never could have continued from Concord NH to Norfolk.).
.
I-240 should maintain the route all the way at least to I-40 west of OKC.  If they want to "quote" the Twin Cities, they can have I-440 up there from I-44 to I-40, as that kind of makes sense 44 to 40, 440.  (But invoking I-865 rather than 665, perhaps 640 or 840 would be more clearly different).
.
I get their thought of I-335 needs to be an odd number at the end as the stupids think N-S routes end in odds... they dont, right 380,476,etc.?  They should number it I-340 or I-344.
.
I didn't think their full I-240 loop though was such a bad idea.  It was like Cincinnati's I-275, or the metro's I-287.

Quote from: sturmde on October 05, 2023, 05:04:13 PM
I didn't think their full I-240 loop though was such a bad idea.  It was like Cincinnati's I-275, or the metro's I-287.

The proposed I-240 extension does not function as a loop. That's why it's a bad idea.

Quote from: sturmdeI-240 should maintain the route all the way at least to I-40 west of OKC.  If they want to "quote" the Twin Cities, they can have I-440 up there from I-44 to I-40, as that kind of makes sense 44 to 40, 440.

Yeah, the 44 to/from 40 thing is a good reason to call that portion of the Kilpatrick Turnpike "I-440." I like that a hell of a lot more than "I-344."

Quote from: bugoThe proposed I-240 extension does not function as a loop. That's why it's a bad idea.

That I-240 proposal is a bad idea for that reason and a bad idea for other reasons. The I-240 and I-344 designations would end at a PARTIAL interchange. That just absolutely sucks. On top of that, it's a partial interchange to a surface street, not a freeway. Additionally, the route is a signed State highway, not a US or Interstate Highway, which makes it not such a great terminus for two Interstate highways. I thought there was a requirement for Interstates to start and end at points in the national highway system.

IMHO, the only acceptable solution for an I-240 extension is having it signed all the way to I-40. It shouldn't make any difference if a portion of the highway is tolled. I-44 hops back and forth between being free and tolled 10 times between the Red River and Missouri border.

The only way that the I-240/SH 152 makes any sense is if the powers that be are planning for the Kilpatrick Turnpike to eventually extend south from the current end - there was talk of another extension running south (running east of Mustang) to connect with an upgraded SH 4 to complete an continuous expressway/turnpike from the Kilpatrick Tpk to the H.E. Bailey Spur near Bridge Creek.

ODOT and OTA goofed up the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension.

When they started working on the project back in the 1990's it seemed pretty obvious the goal was to extend the Kilpatrick Turnpike straight down thru Mustang along/near South Sara Road and connect into the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension AND push it to I-35 just South of Norman. They failed on that.

All we got was bits and pieces of what should have been a South quadrant of an OKC Outer Loop. ODOT built a new divided highway bridge over the Canadian River just North of Bridge Creek. OK-4 has an upgrade-able Super 2 configuration from I-44 up to Rock Creek Road in Bridge Creek. ODOT or OTA is supposed to add a new freeway exit to OK-4 at Fox Lane. But that's only possible because they acquired the ROW more than 20 years ago.

OK-4 within Bridge Creek is being permanently turned into a Breezewood. It would take some pretty significant eminent domain action to buy and clear dozens of properties along Mustang Road to create room to build a freeway or toll road flanked by frontage roads. Looking at Google Earth imagery of 6/2023, it's clear a lot of new housing subdivisions are being built in the Bridge Creek area. If ODOT or OTA have any kinds of plans they better act on them soon. Otherwise Mustang Road will be locked as an undivided 5-lane street within Bridge Creek.

Even if a turnpike extension could be pushed up through Bridge Creek and over the Canadian River the task of connecting it to the Kilpatrick Turnpike would be an even more difficult task. There is a lot of new house building activity going on in the Mustang and Yukon areas. That activity is covering up any possible routes for an H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension to connect into the Kilpatrick. If anything, ODOT or OTA might be stuck having to build an elevated freeway over the top of South Sara Road. The more likely thing is they'll do nothing. That area of the OKC metro will just be covered up in stop light hell.

On the bright side, it's still geometrically possible to extend the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension farther East to I-35.

New bonds have been issued to move these projects forward. It shouldn't be too long now before we start to movement on some of these projects: https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-regional/government-politics/first-bonds-sold-for-5-billion-15-year-turnpike-project/article_d18b410a-7d99-11ee-9546-5358b3f9b38b.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

Quote from: US75A on October 07, 2023, 10:55:11 PM
The only way that the I-240/SH 152 makes any sense is if the powers that be are planning for the Kilpatrick Turnpike to eventually extend south from the current end - there was talk of another extension running south (running east of Mustang) to connect with an upgraded SH 4 to complete an continuous expressway/turnpike from the Kilpatrick Tpk to the H.E. Bailey Spur near Bridge Creek.

I looked at the "Access Oklahoma" website tonight and noticed the schematic for the "South Extension" - which departs SH 152 east of Council and runs along the west side of the Will Rogers Airport and connects to I-44 south of 144th - maybe they're actually planning on designating this "I-344" when it is constructed.   It would then make sense for I-240 to end at I-344....if extending the I-240 designation over SH 152 makes any sense to begin with. 

Yeah, I mentioned the Tri-City Connector earlier. Indeed it would be more logical for an I-240 extension to end at the Tri-City Connector interchange with Airport Road. The only bad thing is such an extension of I-240 would be pretty short. It would just be two exits for Meridian Ave and MacArthur Blvd and then it ends at the next interchange. Of course, the split between Airport Road and the Kilpatrick Turnpike extension is just one exit farther.

I think if they can't sign I-240 all the way over to I-40 then why bother extending the designation at all? It's just going to confuse motorists. 

Could it be possible that Interstate 240 was proposed for OK 152, and Interstate 344 was proposed for the John Kilpatrick Turnpike because one has to exit the present-day Airport Road Freeway to access the JKT? That may be Oklahoma's reasoning for giving the freeway and the tollway two different Interstate designations. I still think both roads should have only one designation, but I also think it is a valid hypothesis.

The more valid hypothesis is that whoever came up with that idea was smoking too much legal reef. Or, more likely, huffing too much Lysol.

First project from the program to get underway soon. Reconstruction and widening of I-44 near Bristow.

https://kfor.com/news/local/oklahoma-turnpike-authority-approves-reconstruction-of-i-44-turner-tpk/

That'll take care of about 6 miles of the work. Another 60 miles to go after that.

The website has been updated and shows the focus of the Turner Turnpike expansion and the east to west connector from I-35 to I-44.

QuoteThe first ACCESS Oklahoma long-range plan construction project will begin in February 2024 to widen the I-44/Turner Turnpike to six lanes between Heyburn and Bristow in Creek County. Additionally, preliminary engineering activities are resuming this month for initial priority projects in the 15-year long-range plan.

ACCESS Oklahoma will update Oklahoma's turnpike system with new interchange access points to communities, widen existing turnpikes, update bridges and pavement and add three new routes in the Oklahoma City metro area to complete the Outer Loop and provide an I-35 reliever route.

This long-range plan has always been about motorist safety. OTA's mission is to help facilitate traffic throughout the state by seamlessly connecting with the state highway system, thereby providing a choice for a safe, convenient, and efficient user-funded transportation network. OTA's goal is to provide safe infrastructure while maintaining the lowest toll rate for our customers.

The Turner turnpike project will also add an interchange at Route 66 NE of Bristow. Also lays out a plan for the upcoming phases but with no timeline:

QuoteFirst priority projects resumed preconstruction design activities:
- T-26001: Widening- I-35 Extending East to Hiwassee Road Including Post Road Interchange = Benham
- T-26002: Widening- East of Hiwassee Road Extending East to Kickapoo Turnpike = Cowan
- T-26004: Widening- 5.0 Miles East of Kickapoo Turnpike Extending East to Wellston Including SH-102 Interchange = Olsson
- T-26606: Widening- West of Chandler Extending East Including Chandler Interchange = CPY
- T-26011: Widening- East of Depew Interchange Extending East Including Bristow Interchange = CPY

East to west connector

QuoteFirst priority projects resumed preconstruction design activities:
- EWC- 28001: New Alignment - I-44 / East-West Connector Interchange = MacArthur
- EWC- 28002: New Alignment - Bridge over the South Canadian River = MacArthur
- EWC- 28003: New Alignment- Western Avenue Interchange Extending East to I-35 = TEIM
- EWC- 28004: New Alignment- I-35 Interchange = TEIM
- EWC- 28005: New Alignment- I-35 Interchange Extending East 4.5 Miles = MKEC

NOTE: Remaining EWC projects east of EWC-28005 are not in first priority and remain inactive

Kilpatrick Turnpike widening:

QuoteFirst priority projects resumed preconstruction design activities.
- JKT- 30003: Widening- 1/2 section South of County Line Road NorthEast Includes County Line Road Interchange = CEC
- JKT- 30005: Widening- Eastern Avenue Extending East to I-35 Interchange = TAG

- https://www.accessoklahoma.com/

First project gets green light: https://www.accessoklahoma.com/_files/ugd/7181a5_65838f48f32b416f8cb04293043e6b5c.pdf

The new I-44 interchange with OK-66 Northeast of Bristow will (hopefully) remedy the weird at-grade gated access point currently there. I've seen one or both gates left open at least a couple times driving past that point. I wonder if any "civilians" driving through the open gates to get on or off the turnpike (presumably to avoid a toll) would get hit with a violation anyway.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 09, 2024, 04:35:37 PM
The new I-44 interchange with OK-66 Northeast of Bristow will (hopefully) remedy the weird at-grade gated access point currently there. I've seen one or both gates left open at least a couple times driving past that point. I wonder if any "civilians" driving through the open gates to get on or off the turnpike (presumably to avoid a toll) would get hit with a violation anyway.

Westbound
AUG 2019 GSV:  wide open (https://maps.app.goo.gl/VqR7eeMJ3i1rGPTv9)
FEB 2023 GSV:  half open (https://maps.app.goo.gl/YZFnJQhAn8NJ3bkK8) (current view, link may change in the future)

Eastbound
FEB 2016 GSV:  wide open (https://maps.app.goo.gl/VPepfD7dYfxHCv3k8)
SEP 2019 GSV:  wide open (https://maps.app.goo.gl/ADqMbyks3YTrNEcW6)
AUG 2022 GSV:  half open (https://maps.app.goo.gl/nmGERL7TRMkB6ZEV8)
APR 2023 GSV:  wide open (https://maps.app.goo.gl/UsxKN9ZGS4LZDuCA7) (current view, link may change in the future)

Haha! Isn't that a trip!? The idea the open gates have been caught on camera so often by Google Car passes prove the open gates must be a very common situation.

Edit: here's another view from N3770 Road. "Well come right on in! The door's open!"
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.9119832,-96.2969367,3a,75y,300.3h,84.81t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sW5Z5BAmQAAGYH5d5uoj78g!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DW5Z5BAmQAAGYH5d5uoj78g%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D62.188824%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e4?authuser=0&entry=ttu

Anyone viewing the StreetView links, be sure to click on the "+/-" controls to zoom into the Google Car-cam photos to get a better view of those open gates.

Another really funny thing: there are NO SIGNS telling anyone they can't enter or exit the highway at that point. No "Authorized Vehicles Only" signs are posted. There aren't any "Strictly Enforced" signs like those posted in the Jersey barrier gaps along the main lanes of the turnpikes. Really, if someone wanted to be a smart-ass in court, he could mount a credible defense for getting off the turnpike in that location: "Well, your Honor, the gate was wide open and there weren't any signs saying I couldn't leave the turnpike there. If anything, I need a refund for the part of the turnpike I didn't use!"

I may or may not have used these one time. Not to bypass a toll.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 09, 2024, 04:35:37 PM
The new I-44 interchange with OK-66 Northeast of Bristow will (hopefully) remedy the weird at-grade gated access point currently there.

That is a standard feature on turnpike roadways with exits far distances apart. It allows emergency vehicles access to the turnpike if needed.

Although, they're usually closed...

I know those at-grade turns Northeast of Bristow are supposed to be used only by emergency service vehicles (as well as road maintenance vehicles). But those turns are not signed at all that way.

Also, those at-grade turns are pretty unique. They're paved completely from the Interstate to the connecting roads nearby. Elsewhere on I-44 there are improvised dirt and gravel roads making direct contact with the I-44 main lanes. Usually gates are closed at those points too.

As the ACCESS Oklahoma effort adds a bunch of new exits to I-44 next to none of those dirt/gravel at-grade turns will be necessary.

Check out the US-301 toll bypass (full control of access 65 mph freeway) in Delaware. Sort of same setup, has paved access points, and the gate was actually open on one of the Street Views. Still interesting nonetheless, why the gates are staying open.

I just noticed they updated the map too, and included active projects and those in design.

https://www.accessoklahoma.com/

A couple days ago I had noticed the Tri-City Connector was listed as being in the design phase. Hopefully this means the OTA is considering the Tri-City Connector a greater near-term priority.

I haven't seen much news lately about the Tri-City Connector. As far as I can tell the various lawsuits attempting to stop or delay the project have been dismissed. If the OTA isn't already doing so, they need to be at work acquiring ROW along Indian Hills Road. The sparsely developed areas between Norman and Moore are certain to get filled in with new housing subdivisions and businesses.

If the OTA can get the new frontage roads for Indian Hills Road established it could be a launching pad for a lot of new commercial growth. The Kilpatrick Turnpike has a lot of commercial stuff built next it between Broadway Extension and Hefner Parkway. The land near the I-44 interchange might be a good location for something big.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ5V3W51FSE

Groundbreaking on the first ACCESS Oklahoma project! Turner Turnpike (I-44) Widening east of Bristow