ACCESS Oklahoma

[Plutonic Panda]

This may be controversial but that's more or less the way it should be done. If the public is outraged enough then take the anger with you to the elections. This country has become too obsessed with having public hearing after public hearing and this locally preferred alternative crap it adds too much time to getting much needed infrastructure projects built.

They did hold a public meeting and presumably will hold a couple more.

[Scott5114]

Bell is my representative. Guess I'm going to have to call her up and tell her to knock it the fuck off.

[Great Lakes Roads]

https://www.normantranscript.com/news/mayor-takes-on-turnpike-authority-pledges-to-fight-reprehensible-rollout-of-new-toll-roads/article_66a906d6-9f53-11ec-95bf-7f5f0163db45.html

And now the mayor of Norman fights against the expansion of the new turnpikes near Norman.

[Plutonic Panda]

Already saw this. The mayor is an idiot. I can't wait until this thing is built.

[Scott5114]

Interesting that this turnpike might be the hill that Mayor Breea Clark wants to die on. She is up for re-election in less than a month–she just got a plurality in the first round and there's a run-off the first week of April, where she's running against a very conservative pro-police candidate Larry Heikkila (who was a principal of the Unite Norman movement, on the off-chance that anyone here has knowledge of Norman municipal politics).

Clark seems to think that the voters in rural east and north Norman will be opposed enough to this that by coming out against it she might be able to split those voters off from Heikkila, who would be the natural choice for conservative rural voters. Clark is generally a pretty shrewd politician and has managed to survive a recall attempt despite being one of the most left-wing politicians in deep-red Oklahoma. That being said, I don't think the runoff in April will necessarily be a referendum on the turnpike. Heikkila is pretty far right for Norman voters' tastes, and Unite Norman doesn't have the best track record of actually managing to accomplish much electorally as a result.

[Cerlin]

This may be controversial but that's more or less the way it should be done. If the public is outraged enough then take the anger with you to the elections. This country has become too obsessed with having public hearing after public hearing and this locally preferred alternative crap it adds too much time to getting much needed infrastructure projects built.

They did hold a public meeting and presumably will hold a couple more.

Yeah but infrastructure is something that is supposed to help the community as much as it does help those passing through the community. If the community has no say in where things go, then what point is there of having any democracy at all? Allowing a highway authority to have complete control using eminent domain is exactly what cut up cities like Cincinnati and Dallas and severed lower income neighborhoods away from sustainability. I don't think many people are opposing the idea of a turnpike, not even Brea Clark who has been on record saying in 20 years this could very well be an extremely successful and important infrastructure project, but they're opposing the idea that the community's input is invalid and that they should have no say. A turnpike will get built but I'd rather it take an extra year to make sure we don't bulldoze through neighborhoods or damage a farming ecosystem with input from the community on areas they'd prefer not to get demolished, instead of letting the OTA have free reign and eventually lead us down a path like the IHS did in urban areas in the 60s and 70s.

[Bobby5280]

Clark seems to think that the voters in rural east and north Norman will be opposed enough to this that by coming out against it she might be able to split those voters off from Heikkila, who would be the natural choice for conservative rural voters. Clark is generally a pretty shrewd politician and has managed to survive a recall attempt despite being one of the most left-wing politicians in deep-red Oklahoma. That being said, I don't think the runoff in April will necessarily be a referendum on the turnpike.

The East to West Connector could be enormously beneficial to Norman if it is built as designed in the Access Oklahoma map. The Connector in combination with the extended Kickapoo Turnpike would give Norman residents a high speed link to Tulsa without having to go through downtown OKC along the way. The new turnpike bridge over the Canadian River would provide a fast, direct path to Newcastle, not to mention faster access to Will Rogers Airport and Mustang. A five level directional stack interchange (if built) could become a local landmark.

The Access Oklahoma plan would fill some important gaps in super highway service needed in the OKC metro area. It doesn't do everything (I still strongly believe the Kilpatrick Turnpike and H.E. Bailey Turnpikes need to be linked directly somehow through Mustang).

My own politics are pretty moderate (I have conservative leaning stances on some issues, more liberal stances on others). I understand the importance of walk-ability in a city or town. But I think Mayor Clark is just trying to block a new highway only out of political grand-standing. The ploy doesn't seem to be based on anything practical.

The OKC metro is very spread-out and very car-centric. These regional toll roads will improve connectivity and may ease the traffic burden some in the middle of OKC. The new turnpikes may encourage a lot of new residential and business growth in the Southern and Eastern reaches of OKC. That will improve the tax base, which in turn will help provide funding for things like bike paths, sidewalks, parks, etc in Norman, Moore and Newcastle.

A turnpike will get built but I'd rather it take an extra year to make sure we don't bulldoze through neighborhoods or damage a farming ecosystem with input from the community on areas they'd prefer not to get demolished, instead of letting the OTA have free reign and eventually lead us down a path like the IHS did in urban areas in the 60s and 70s.

If the OTA and others fart around for years having more public hearings, fighting lawsuits, etc the sparsely developed areas where the turnpikes would be built will be covered up with new development by then. The roads won't get built at all by that point. It will be just like the very stupid crap that happened over in Mustang at the SW end of the Kilpatrick Turnpike.

[Scott5114]

The areas the Kickapoo extension are going to pass through are far enough out that they have time to kill. The Kickapoo will cross SH-9 about five miles east of the current outskirts of Norman development. Norman is growing, but that part of the city is developing slowly enough that I don't think we'll see a whole lot of development in that corridor in the next 20 years.

The clock on the Indian Hills turnpike is ticking faster. Moore is probably less likely to be opposed to it than Norman is; it might be a good idea to split that proposal in two and construct the part west of I-35 (which would pass through Moore and OKC) now and leave the part east of I-35  until the locals get their heads out of their asses and realize they aren't going to be able to indefinitely live a "rural lifestyle" smack dab between two of the largest cities in the state.

[Plutonic Panda]

I say just build the whole damn thing at once. These NIMBYs aren't going to wise up. Hell south Pasadena opposed a freeway tunnel they wouldn't even see. They won't wise up.

[Bobby5280]

"Indian Hills Turnpike?" Is that the official name of the East to West Connector. It at least sounds better than "East to West Connector."

Yes, there is more time available to secure ROW and build out the Kickapoo extension down to Purcell. The situation with the East to West Connector is far more urgent. I really think they need to start building out the frontage roads for it, just to secure the ROW, as soon as possible. It doesn't cost all that much money to remodel a surface street corridor to fit a new super highway later.

Still, it would be really good if the OTA could at least get parts of the I-44 to I-35 link from Newcastle built early on. With that built some of the Norman NIMBYs might warm up to the idea of having better highway connections going both East and West from town.

[Scott5114]

That name isn't official; I was just referring to it as such because the section-line road it follows is Indian Hills Road.

OTA has historically decided the official names of its turnpikes relatively late in the process. What is now the Kickapoo was officially referred to as the "Eastern Oklahoma County Loop" until just before opening. The signing plans included panels referring to it as "*Placeholder* Turnpike".

I have no idea what they'll come up with as the official name for this one. Unlike most of the other turnpikes in the system, there aren't any tribes associated with the area (Cleveland County was part of the Unassigned Lands), and the two nearest tribes either already have a turnpike (Chickasaw) or would be confusing (Absentee Shawnee). I hope they don't do something stupid like name it the Barry Switzer Turnpike. Maybe they'll just give it a number and leave it at that.

[Bobby5280]

The Toby Keith Turnpike. That would be pretty good. 

[FrCorySticha]

The Toby Keith Turnpike. That would be pretty good. 

Would the shields be a red Solo cup?

[kphoger]

As far as I know, Boaty McBoatface is still unused within the OTA system.

Call it the Boaty McBoatface Route for all I care.

I feel like this calls for a OTA standard turnpike marker to be created with this name. (I would do it but text on a curve is a pain in the ass.)

Just forget the curve, then.

[SoonerCowboy]

Interesting that this turnpike might be the hill that Mayor Breea Clark wants to die on. She is up for re-election in less than a month–she just got a plurality in the first round and there's a run-off the first week of April, where she's running against a very conservative pro-police candidate Larry Heikkila (who was a principal of the Unite Norman movement, on the off-chance that anyone here has knowledge of Norman municipal politics).

Clark seems to think that the voters in rural east and north Norman will be opposed enough to this that by coming out against it she might be able to split those voters off from Heikkila, who would be the natural choice for conservative rural voters. Clark is generally a pretty shrewd politician and has managed to survive a recall attempt despite being one of the most left-wing politicians in deep-red Oklahoma. That being said, I don't think the runoff in April will necessarily be a referendum on the turnpike. Heikkila is pretty far right for Norman voters' tastes, and Unite Norman doesn't have the best track record of actually managing to accomplish much electorally as a result.

I do not understand what most of these (Norman) peeps problem is? it's going through the most rural areas of Norman, and it's going to be so beneficial to everyone. Clark needs to just fuck off. LOL. I'm with Panda, get that dam'n thing built.

[Scott5114]

The opposition to the Indian Hills turnpike is NIMBYism.

There are some valid reasons to be concerned about the route of the Kickapoo extension, as it passes rather close to Lake Thunderbird (which is Norman's primary source of drinking water).

[skluth]

The mayor may not be in favor of the turnpikes but this has me hopeful.

"There are a lot of unknowns right now and rest assured that we are working as a council on your behalf to get as much information out there as possible,"  Tortorello said. "We're meeting with state representatives, ODOT [Oklahoma Department of Transportation], OTA to get as much information as possible. I am in awe of the work that the community is doing, sharing data. This is the way Norman is. This is the way we do things. I'm just proud of what we're seeing so far."

Tortorello announced he would hold Facebook live on his council ward page Thursday night to provide updates and would do so every week or every other week.

Ward 8 Matt Peacock said he hopes residents in his ward know he supports them. The toll road will run along Indian Hills Road in Peacock's ward.

"It's not just Ward 5 that's affected,"  Peacock said. "I've heard a lot of the concerns from my constituents, and I just want to say that I hear you, we hear you, and we are looking at every available opportunity and option to see what we can do to impact this thing. Just know that we're trying to work for you."

That sounds like some on the board would rather influence the planning than kill it. Norman has some genuine reasons to bargain. I didn't notice anything along the East-West but the proposed Kickapoo extension goes through some wetlands and a couple neighborhoods. A few modifications may be all that's needed to get the needed support from Norman.

The ACCESS Oklahoma plan looks well planned for future needs. We are going to need new models to fund our roads as more vehicles go electric so turnpikes are one of the best ways to go. I'd hate to go to this model where drivers are charged every time they use their vehicles. (Note: link is to Time magazine web site which allows a limited number of articles per month)

[Bobby5280]

The way road funding is going, with games being played on how gasoline taxes are used (such as funding teacher pay in Oklahoma), I would not be the least bit surprised to see toll tag readers and cameras get installed all over ordinary 2-lane highways and surface streets.

[Plutonic Panda]

Now we stop the turnpikes due to rare rose rocks: https://kfor.com/news/local/oklahomans-worried-turnpike-expansion-will-destroy-rare-rose-rocks/

I can't wait to see what excuse they come up with next.

[Bobby5280]

At my AMBUCS civic club meeting Monday our guest speaker was Gene Love, who is currently the chairman of the OTA board of directors. I asked him about some of the publicized blow-back happening around the Norman area. He said the vast majority of people he has talked to about the plan are overwhelmingly in favor of building the new turnpikes. They're just not getting their voices heard. Widening the rest of the Turner Turnpike to 6 lanes and building the new East-to-West Connector will be very beneficial.

Love warned the routes for some of the new turnpikes on the Access Oklahoma map are preliminary. The alignments may be adjusted as the OTA does all of its studies. I did tell him that it was imperative that OTA do something to acquire and reserve ROW for the East to West Connector as soon as possible, even if it means building an upgrade-ready Super 2 route or a divided street with a huge median. If they don't move fast enough developers will build over every possible route path. It could turn into another missed opportunity like S Sara Road and OK-4 over in Mustang. Gene Love is from Lawton. I asked him about any planned improvements for the H.E. Bailey Turnpike. More things are going to happen on I-44 North of Lawton, particularly between Chickasha and Newcastle. Not too awful much will happen to the Walters toll plaza South of Lawton. In the short term they're planning on removing the toll booths and making it to where motorists can drive through the plaza at normal 75mph speeds. I told him the OK-5 bridge over the toll booths is in horrible condition. It just needs to be replaced. The whole damned interchange needs to be replaced really. OTA just doesn't have the funding scheduled for it in the current capital plan.

[Plutonic Panda]

Thanks for the update although I hope the whole E-W corridor is built at once. That interchange at I-35 is what excited me the most. Hopefully as traffic and the population grows they will get more revenue or perhaps the state could vote to increase the amounts of bonds they are allowed to take out at once and then add some more projects like the Walters Plaza project.

[Bobby5280]

I have a sneaking suspicion the OTA may add the 5-level directional stack interchange with I-35 and the East-to-West Connector in a number of phases. It would not surprise me at all if the East-to-West Connector initially opened with a volleyball interchange at I-35. Traffic on the frontage roads might be pretty friggin' heavy if they do that. Over time the OTA would add fly-over ramps, probably just one pair at a time over a several years or even over a decade.

[Plutonic Panda]

A Facebook group and page have been setup and the Norman city council officially opposed the turnpikes.

I tried posting in a very civil manner in the Facebook group voicing my support for the tollways and my post was removed claiming I'm "hindering"  their goal to stop this.

https://kfor.com/news/local/norman-city-council-unanimously-supports-resolution-opposing-turnpike-extension-plan/

[plain]

Wow. If that's their reason for removing your post then that tells me they would refuse to listen to anything constructive about any issue.

[Plutonic Panda]

Wow. If that's their reason for removing your post then that tells me they would refuse to listen to anything constructive about any issue.

I guess they banned me from their group because I can't even go to their group now. But if you're not banned you can go there and look at the group rules they claimed I violated by "hindering"  their goal of "abolishing"  the OTA or stopping this project whichever it was.