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[Revive 755]

I don't see a Chickasha to Slaughterville turnpike ever happening. It would be a waste of money to build roughly 30 miles of new terrain turnpike just 8 miles South of the existing H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur. It would actually be considerably less expensive to extend the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur the last 6 miles to I-35. And the road going by Riverwind Casino would get a whole lot more use.

Depends how much Oklahoma City grows/sprawls.  If Oklahoma City starts growing like Dallas another east-west facility might be useful.

[Scott5114]

Eh...McClain County's my stomping grounds. People around Washington (which is more or less due west of the proposed southern terminus of the Kickapoo) simply do not use SH-9 for a trip to Chickasha; the preferred routing is SH-24 to SH-39. I'm not really sure where you'd take a turnpike west from the current southern terminus, though. Once you get past Washington, you start getting into some pretty thinly-settled territory; there's really only Dibble to the southwest. There's a whole lot of nothing between there and Chickasha.

McClain County and the Goldsby/Washington area is growing, slowly but surely, but most of the growth is concentrated along the SH-9 and I-35 corridors right now. There are some new homes going in closer to Washington, but for the most part they're one-offs from someone splitting an acreage off of a quarter-section or something like that, no big subdivisions like north Goldsby is starting to get. The area between Dibble and Chickasha might sprawl up in...oh, say, fifty years, maybe. The only thing that would move that up is if Oklahoma City becomes the national capital and also the global headquarters of a merger between Amazon, Walmart, and Boeing, someone strikes gold in Dibble, and Kevin Stitt is succeeded by the ghost of Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

My wife lived in between Dibble and Chickasha when we first met in 2011. At the time the cell signal was so weak you had to go stand next to a window to get any reception. One time we had to call the Grady County sheriff because someone's horse got loose and ended up on her roof somehow.

[Bobby5280]

Depends how much Oklahoma City grows/sprawls.  If Oklahoma City starts growing like Dallas another east-west facility might be useful.

Yeah, but first things first. That idiotic Breezewood in front of Riverwind Casino needs to be fixed. If the OKC metro is going to sprawl Southward OK-9 needs to be FIXED f***king correctly. It's a crime that thing was allowed be built in such a stupidly incomplete manner. That corridor is going be affected well before a Chickasha-Purcell turnpike would become necessary.

Eh...McClain County's my stomping grounds. People around Washington (which is more or less due west of the proposed southern terminus of the Kickapoo) simply do not use SH-9 for a trip to Chickasha; the preferred routing is SH-24 to SH-39. I'm not really sure where you'd take a turnpike west from the current southern terminus, though. Once you get past Washington, you start getting into some pretty thinly-settled territory; there's really only Dibble to the southwest. There's a whole lot of nothing between there and Chickasha.

The main Eastbound route out of Chickasha is US-62 and then the split with OK-39 going over to Purcell. I'm guessing the traffic counts on those routes are not high at all, given all the highways in that general area are 2 lane routes. US-62 going North out of Blanchard is the only 4-lane route in that area besides I-44 and I-35.

Turnpikes are meant to move higher volumes of traffic from a greater variety of destinations. People driving up from Lawton or Wichita Falls to points in OKC or beyond OKC are not going to take a Chickasha to Slaughterville turnpike. They'll keep driving closer into OKC. With me being in Lawton, the East-to-West Connector from Tri-Cities thru the gap between Moore and Norman would be really valuable for road trips up to Tulsa. But I'm not going to go far out of my way to drive Chickasha to Slaughterville to get to the Kickapoo Turnpike. That's literally a bridge too far for me. I can always stay on I-44 for the most direct route and save some money on tolls. So why would I drive way far out of my way to blow even more money on tolls and fuel?

On the other hand, lots of people from Lawton drive to Norman for various reasons. So there is legit value in properly completing the H.E. Bailey Turnpike Spur all the way to I-35.

[sprjus4]

People driving up from Lawton or Wichita Falls to points in OKC or beyond OKC are not going to take a Chickasha to Slaughterville turnpike. They'll keep driving closer into OKC...But I'm not going to go far out of my way to drive Chickasha to Slaughterville to get to the Kickapoo Turnpike. That's literally a bridge too far for me. I can always stay on I-44 for the most direct route and save some money on tolls. So why would I drive way far out of my way to blow even more money on tolls and fuel?

It seems to measure out around 75-80 miles for the Turnpike route vs. around 68-70 miles for the existing I-44.

Considering the speed limit on the Turnpike route would be 80 mph throughout, only around 10 miles longer over a distance of 80 miles, and would avoid the Oklahoma City metro entirely... there's certainly merit for such a route, for long distance traffic with no intention with interacting with an urban area at all... especially during peak hours.

[rte66man]

I talked with the OTA. They said the plan is to get the urban projects done first within 10 years and the east to west connector will be high priority.

Also heard from a couple different people there US-412 will be I-42.

Did you ask them about the Kickapoo to Purcell and JKT to I-44? From what I'm gathering in the post those 2 would probably be ranked just as high as the east-west connector especially considering they're tying that into the southern Kickapoo extension

Yes. They said the first projects will likely be the urban ones and they will focus on the JKT/Hefner Parkway and widenings. The East-West connector and Kickapoo southern extension are high priority. They said that of all the proposed projects the only one that is subject to significant changes is the JKT to tri-city connector.

Interestingly enough the gentleman that I spoke with said there is an outline of dozens of project corridors where future tollways could be built under plans from when the first turnpikes were built. I’d like to see those.

Given the layout of the proposed layout of the JKT I wouln't be surprised to see that get rerouted, not sure how much though.

When I saw how they tied in the Kickapoo to I-35 it sounds like they're building a full bridge over I-35 which indicates that they plan to eventually tied the Kickapoo to the Bailey/44 either near Chickasha or near Lawton

Speaking of future tollways are they referring to what they planned on doing the first time (e.g. extending the Muskogee to Poteau from I-40), if it's not that then the only thing I can think of would be the extension of the Cimmaron west of I-35 (running along 412/future Interstate) to Northwest Oklahoma which could be part of the overall plans to tie in the new Interstate from I-35, west and eventually northwest towards Limon and I-70 (and eventually to Denver).

Not that I'm expecting them to say anything about future tollway plans but I'd be curious to know what their plans are beyond the projects already announced.

The Cimmaron Cherokee will probably be extended east the last few miles to the Arkansas state line to match whatever kind of bypass Arkansas builds around Siloam Springs, whenever Arkansas is ready to build that segment of the new Interstate.

FTFY

[Bobby5280]

It seems to measure out around 75-80 miles for the Turnpike route vs. around 68-70 miles for the existing I-44.

Usually when I drive to Tulsa I just stay on I-44 the whole way. Using the combination of East-to-West Connector and the Kickapoo Turnpike would add about 3 miles to the trip. A Chickasha to Purcell route to the entire length of the Kickapoo Turnpike would add about 12 miles versus staying on I-44. The route might possibly be 80mph the whole way. But there's all the added tolls as well. Oklahoma's tolls are a bargain compared to toll roads in other states. Still the route would add a few dollars more in tolls over the 28 mile break of "free" I-44 going thru the OKC metro.

[sprjus4]

It seems to measure out around 75-80 miles for the Turnpike route vs. around 68-70 miles for the existing I-44.

Usually when I drive to Tulsa I just stay on I-44 the whole way. Using the combination of East-to-West Connector and the Kickapoo Turnpike would add about 3 miles to the trip. A Chickasha to Purcell route to the entire length of the Kickapoo Turnpike would add about 12 miles versus staying on I-44. The route might possibly be 80mph the whole way. But there's all the added tolls as well. Oklahoma's tolls are a bargain compared to toll roads in other states. Still the route would add a few dollars more in tolls over the 28 mile break of "free" I-44 going thru the OKC metro.

It just depends on preference to travel through the metro area or not, and traffic congestion. If there’s backups or accidents, etc. I’m easily taking the toll road.

But to say no one will use it is a stretch. I’d disagree.

[okroads]

The more I look at the proposed map, the more concern I have about an increase in traffic along an already antiquated and narrow I-44 from SW OKC to the Tri-City area, between the JKT/152 connector & East-West Turnpike. I don't think ODOT has any plans to widen that section of I-44 anytime soon.

[Scott5114]

The more I look at the proposed map, the more concern I have about an increase in traffic along an already antiquated and narrow I-44 from SW OKC to the Tri-City area, between the JKT/152 connector & East-West Turnpike. I don't think ODOT has any plans to widen that section of I-44 anytime soon.

Yeah, both of these turnpikes are going to result in a lot of new traffic being dumped on that road. Upgrades are surely going to be needed.

[Bobby5280]

On the bright side, a 3x3 upgrade of I-44 from the I-240 split down to the North end of the H.E. Bailey Turnpike would be relatively easy. There is plenty of space within the existing ROW to add a third lane in each direction. On top of that the existing I-44 bridge over the Canadian River is already wide enough for a 3x3 road; it's just striped for 2x2. Also it seems likely the new interchanges on I-44 for the East-to-West Connector and the JKT Connector would include some main line upgrades for I-44 in the immediate area of those interchanges.

[Scott5114]

The problem is that ODOT will probably fart around and take 20 years to upgrade the portion of road in between. Getting on that section of highway is already sort of dicey with how much traffic is on it already and how little merge space there is.

[swake]

I talked with the OTA. They said the plan is to get the urban projects done first within 10 years and the east to west connector will be high priority.

Also heard from a couple different people there US-412 will be I-42.

Did you ask them about the Kickapoo to Purcell and JKT to I-44? From what I'm gathering in the post those 2 would probably be ranked just as high as the east-west connector especially considering they're tying that into the southern Kickapoo extension

Yes. They said the first projects will likely be the urban ones and they will focus on the JKT/Hefner Parkway and widenings. The East-West connector and Kickapoo southern extension are high priority. They said that of all the proposed projects the only one that is subject to significant changes is the JKT to tri-city connector.

Interestingly enough the gentleman that I spoke with said there is an outline of dozens of project corridors where future tollways could be built under plans from when the first turnpikes were built. I’d like to see those.

Given the layout of the proposed layout of the JKT I wouln't be surprised to see that get rerouted, not sure how much though.

When I saw how they tied in the Kickapoo to I-35 it sounds like they're building a full bridge over I-35 which indicates that they plan to eventually tied the Kickapoo to the Bailey/44 either near Chickasha or near Lawton

Speaking of future tollways are they referring to what they planned on doing the first time (e.g. extending the Muskogee to Poteau from I-40), if it's not that then the only thing I can think of would be the extension of the Cimmaron west of I-35 (running along 412/future Interstate) to Northwest Oklahoma which could be part of the overall plans to tie in the new Interstate from I-35, west and eventually northwest towards Limon and I-70 (and eventually to Denver).

Not that I'm expecting them to say anything about future tollway plans but I'd be curious to know what their plans are beyond the projects already announced.

The Cimmaron Cherokee will probably be extended east the last few miles to the Arkansas state line to match whatever kind of bypass Arkansas builds around Siloam Springs, whenever Arkansas is ready to build that segment of the new Interstate.

FTFY

Ah yes, my bad.

[Bobby5280]

The problem is that ODOT will probably fart around and take 20 years to upgrade the portion of road in between. Getting on that section of highway is already sort of dicey with how much traffic is on it already and how little merge space there is.

Yeah, I'm not a fan at all of the I-44 split with I-240 on OKC's SW side. A motorist going from I-44 to I-240 or vice versa doesn't have a problem due to the way the thru lanes are designed. Drivers using I-44 SW of OKC have it worse off.

Motorists coming up Northbound on I-44 into the interchange with I-240 face a bit of a blind spot going over the I-240 main lanes. The blind spot was much worse before the interchange was modified around 20 years ago. Still, if you're not paying attention you can crest over that hill and suddenly be facing a traffic jam at a dead stop and rear-end cars ahead of you. That WB I-240 to WB I-44 cloverleaf is one really tight loop. ODOT really needs to replace that with a flyover ramp.

The Southbound lanes of I-44 at the I-240 split are pretty screwy. There are two lanes there now which exit to I-44 instead of one lane previously. But the right outboard lane quickly drops off as an exit lane for SW 74th Street. That creates a bunch of weaving conflicts with motorists who stayed to the right but now suddenly have to go left one lane to stay on I-44. Really that split with I-44 and I-240 needs to be 3 lanes wide for both roads. Either that or ODOT needs to work in a braided ramp scheme for SW 74th Street.

It's possible ODOT and OTA both will fart around for years on these projects. I would love to see a 5 level stack at I-35 and the interchange with the East-to-West Connector. But I would not be at all surprised if OTA downgraded that into a stupid cloverleaf. In fact, I kind of expect it. Or if the interchange is a mix of flyovers and cloverleafs like the I-35/I-240 or I-44/I-235 interchanges they'll fart around taking over a decade to build the damned thing. They keep reminding us all the time we don't live in Texas, and not in a good way either.

[rte66man]

The more I look at the proposed map, the more concern I have about an increase in traffic along an already antiquated and narrow I-44 from SW OKC to the Tri-City area, between the JKT/152 connector & East-West Turnpike. I don't think ODOT has any plans to widen that section of I-44 anytime soon.

Already on the radar.
https://www.odot.org/cwp-8-year-plan/cwp_ffy2022-ffy2029/8_year_cwp_district3N_map.pdf

Bad news is no actual construction is scheduled for another 5 years.

[okroads]

The more I look at the proposed map, the more concern I have about an increase in traffic along an already antiquated and narrow I-44 from SW OKC to the Tri-City area, between the JKT/152 connector & East-West Turnpike. I don't think ODOT has any plans to widen that section of I-44 anytime soon.

Already on the radar.
https://www.odot.org/cwp-8-year-plan/cwp_ffy2022-ffy2029/8_year_cwp_district3N_map.pdf

Bad news is no actual construction is scheduled for another 5 years.

That's better than what I thought. Thanks, rte66man. Could be interesting to see which gets completed first, the turnpike(s) in question or this widening project.

[Bobby5280]

The dollar amounts of those I-44 projects for FFY 2023-27 don't really look like enough to pay for a 3x3 widening from near I-240 down to the Canadian River Bridge. The total looks like about $20 million. That's barely enough to pay for one SPUI project on an Interstate. Meanwhile they have $47 million in projects planned for OK-9 East of Norman and $38.6 million in projects planned for a stretch of US-77 South of Norman. One I-40 project East of OKC would cost $86 million.

[Scott5114]

The dollar amounts listed are for utility relocation and right-of-way acquisition, both scheduled for 2027. Presumably any actual construction would be scheduled for 2028 or later.

[Bobby5280]

Hopefully the East-to-West Connector will at least be in early stages of construction by 2028. If the OTA doesn't get on the ball very soon with the surface street frontage roads just to secure the ROW they are going to be so screwed if they wait 5 years or more to get started.

City councils and county commissions all march to the beat of their own drums, often completely oblivious or ignorant to the plans of other agencies like ODOT and OTA. They'll ink deals with commercial developers and not think twice about it. They're only concerned about the here and now for what a piece of land can hold, not 5-15 years in the future.

West Indian Hills Road has some juicy pieces of property alongside it that are currently vacant. I can easily imagine a bunch of restaurants popping up in the vacant land South of Hey Day Entertainment and the Andy Alligator Fun Park. That would greatly complicate any efforts of building a 5-level stack interchange with I-35 there. The Andy Alligator place closed to due the pandemic. But that property is in a highly valuable location.

[Cerlin]

Just got off the phone with Colin O’ Leary with the OTA and he answered a few questions for me about the East-West connector and I figured I’d share the most interesting ones here.

At the moment, there is no plan for any of these roads to become freeways in the future (expected given it’s the turnpike authority) but he couldn’t rule out a potential future Interstate designation on the E/W if additional funding was needed. It seemed like it was super unlikely but it’s still not impossible I suppose. In addition, he said they hadn’t made a decision on the 5-level stack at 35 and the E/W but as a part of trying to dampen their environmental footprint, they’re wanting to shift to extending “up and not out” when building new freeway interchanges like this, so they’re going to push for that to be a flyover interchange. I couldn’t get any concrete times for when any project would be completed but it sounded like environmental studies and ROW projects will be starting in the upcoming months.

[Plutonic Panda]

IIRC, freeways don’t refer to whether or not one pays a direct user fee to drive on the road rather it’s referring to the fact the facility has full controlled access. No lights or at grade crossings. So this would be a freeway.

[Cerlin]

IIRC, freeways don’t refer to whether or not one pays a direct user fee to drive on the road rather it’s referring to the fact the facility has full controlled access. No lights or at grade crossings. So this would be a freeway.

I should have clarified my wording probably. He said that all of the proposed projects will be and should be turnpikes with fees and limited access, and there’s no future plans to make any of the roads without tolls, so there’s likely not a plan to slap a 3di on the road unless there’s some significant budget constraints and they need to rely on federal funding.

[Plutonic Panda]

IIRC, freeways don’t refer to whether or not one pays a direct user fee to drive on the road rather it’s referring to the fact the facility has full controlled access. No lights or at grade crossings. So this would be a freeway.

I should have clarified my wording probably. He said that all of the proposed projects will be and should be turnpikes with fees and limited access, and there’s no future plans to make any of the roads without tolls, so there’s likely not a plan to slap a 3di on the road unless there’s some significant budget constraints and they need to rely on federal funding.

Yeah I thought that Biden wanted to allow for new interstate designations on tollways but perhaps that hasn’t happened.

Interesting about the stack proposal. It seems necessary if they want service roads to go through the interchange much like how Texas builds theirs. Honestly, and I hope it’s done at once, but I wouldn’t mind seeing a Volleyball interchange here over a scaled down version with half flyovers half cloverleafs. At least some point in the future new connections can be made.

[Cerlin]

Yeah I’m interested to see if more states including Oklahoma follow in the steps of Texas’s highway interchanges. For one thing, I find them much easier to drive since the merge points are a lot smoother unlike the typical cloverleafs. I also just really appreciate the grandeur of them—every time I’m driving in DFW, I love to drive 35E from SH121 to 635 just to see the stacks. It’d be super cool to have that in Oklahoma and if it means less space is occupied to handle the traffic, I’m all for it.

[rte66man]

And so it begins.......
https://kfor.com/news/local/we-arent-going-quietly-proposed-turnpike-plans-leave-one-family-wondering-what-price-theyll-be-expected-to-pay-for-progress/

“We aren’t going quietly,” Proposed turnpike plans leave one family wondering what price they’ll be expected to pay for progress

OKLAHOMA CITY (KFOR) — Concern is growing for Oklahomans who are worried that their properties, businesses, and homes could be torn down to make way for new turnpike expansion projects around the state.

Currently at issue is the proposed expansion of the Kickapoo Turnpike.

“I’ve been on [our] property since 1957. My dad was born on this property in 1932. His grandfather owned it prior to that,” said longtime Nobel resident, Donna McCrory.

Donna McCrory’s family has owned, lived on, and farmed more than 140 acres since 1919, but with all the work they’ve put in, they’re now concerned that it will be torn down and cleared away for this particular expansion, a project they’ve been told could help cut the drive from Tulsa to Dallas by 50 minutes.

“And so for fifty minutes they’re going to wipe out the flora and fauna. And the people and the community, the tiny towns,” she said. “I’ve seen my family put blood, sweat and tears, literally, to maintain and keep the property and make it our home.”

ODOT says it’s too early yet to determine exactly what properties may be needed.

“We haven’t gotten to that point,” said Jessica Brown, Director of Strategic Communications for the Oklahoma Department of Transportation, referring to the new ACCESS Oklahoma highway infrastructure plan that could take 15 years total, to complete. “It will be at least at a minimum, weeks, two months before we get to that process.”

“We’re trying to buy the property we need and only the property we need to make those alignments to expand the interstate and turnpikes,” she added. “Once we have a refinement of those alignments, then we’ll notify property owners via mail that their property is included in our expansion efforts and our transportation expansion.”

Brown also noted that pinpointing an exact timeline could be difficult due to the scope and wide range of the projects.

But the family fears that progress will come at their expense.

“It’s a functioning farm,” said McCrory of the family’s land, which they currently leasing to another farmer in the area. “And if all of these people are displaced then I think it’s going to hurt our schools, it’s going to hurt, you know, our small businesses and the, the people that make up this community. And I know just every day I hear of another family that’s that lived here forever.”

“People like myself that are supposed to be in their golden years living on their property that they’ve been on thirty, forty years. And now they’re being told, well, you’re going to be uprooted,” she added.

When the project does reach that phase of land acquisition, the family would expect to receive at minimum, market value for more than one hundred and forty acres. But it’s not factor they’re ready to consider.

“It’s civil for now with them,” added Donna’s niece, Megan. “But I made it very clear we aren’t going quietly.”

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeah and these stupid news outlets eating up loving the controversy so they can write stories. Democracy!