New North Dakota state route marker design

[J N Winkler]

This is only a preliminary indication, and I have found no newspaper articles or TV news clips dealing with it, but I have seen it in too many construction plans sets already for it to be a fluke:  North Dakota is changing its state route marker design.  The Indian chief bust with feather headdress and "N D" in upper corners is giving way to a state-outline design, with the number in the state silhouette and "NORTH DAKOTA" above (Series B).  So far the new design is available only as an insertable sheet in various construction plans sets--it has not yet been added to NDDOT's manuals and publications page, which still has links to the old design.

So far I have seen the new shield only as an independent-mount (two-digit) square.  I don't know if a separate three-digit independent-mount version or guide sign designs have been developed yet.

[SD Mapman]

Is it going to be green?
'cause that would make everyone think that the two Dakotas are actually one state.

Also, I think this was floated about before as a redesign (although I have no idea if it ever got anywhere)
http://www.us-highways.com/newnd.htm

As a South Dakotan, this feels like they're ripping us off (if it is in fact true). Maybe the idea was "Hey, let's make our route shield like SD's and then people might come here by mistake!" (because there really isn't much of a reason to vacation in ND...)

[J N Winkler]

Is it going to be green?  'cause that would make everyone think that the two Dakotas are actually one state.

Not in the independent-mount design I have seen--it is only two colors:  state outline and words "NORTH DAKOTA" are white against nonreflective black.  I don't know how they plan to do the independent-mount design, but if they follow the standard advice and eliminate the black background and put the white elements directly against the green sign background, then the result will look a bit like the South Dakota guide-sign marker except for "NORTH DAKOTA" floating above.

Also, I think this was floated about before as a redesign (although I have no idea if it ever got anywhere)

http://www.us-highways.com/newnd.htm

It actually does look a little like R.V. Droz' suggested redesign, except there is no green.

As a South Dakotan, this feels like they're ripping us off (if it is in fact true). Maybe the idea was "Hey, let's make our route shield like SD's and then people might come here by mistake!" (because there really isn't much of a reason to vacation in ND...)

I'm hoping someone has on-the-ground verification.

I kind of liked the Indian headdress design and wouldn't have expected concerns about cultural appropriation to receive much play in North Dakota.

[corco]

I'm hoping someone has on-the-ground verification.

Do you know where to look? Preferably west of US 83.

This seems logical, though, given the recent abandonment of the Fighting Sioux mascot at UND, and given that this would certainly rile up the very vocal minority opposed to that action, it makes sense not to publicize it too much.

[SD Mapman]

Is it going to be green?  'cause that would make everyone think that the two Dakotas are actually one state.

Not in the independent-mount design I have seen--it is only two colors:  state outline and words "NORTH DAKOTA" are white against nonreflective black.  I don't know how they plan to do the independent-mount design, but if they follow the standard advice and eliminate the black background and put the white elements directly against the green sign background, then the result will look a bit like the South Dakota guide-sign marker except for "NORTH DAKOTA" floating above.

Also, I think this was floated about before as a redesign (although I have no idea if it ever got anywhere)

http://www.us-highways.com/newnd.htm

It actually does look a little like R.V. Droz' suggested redesign, except there is no green.

As a South Dakotan, this feels like they're ripping us off (if it is in fact true). Maybe the idea was "Hey, let's make our route shield like SD's and then people might come here by mistake!" (because there really isn't much of a reason to vacation in ND...)

I'm hoping someone has on-the-ground verification.

I kind of liked the Indian headdress design and wouldn't have expected concerns about cultural appropriation to receive much play in North Dakota.

Do you have a link to those construction specs you mentioned?

[jakeroot]

Does this leave Washington alone in the "busts as markers" design category?

[J N Winkler]

I'm hoping someone has on-the-ground verification.

Do you know where to look? Preferably west of US 83.

Some of the recent contracts have involved ND 23, whose western end is at Watford City (US 85 corridor, well west of US 83), and detour plans--not just plans for permanent signing--call for use of the new marker.  However, I can't promise that construction has started.  ND 23 is what I was seeing yesterday; my script works by pulling in contracts as they are first advertised (it doesn't wait until after the letting date, unlike some of the other scripts I run), so if you allow one month for the advertising period to run out, another month for contract award, and two months for issuance of Notice to Proceed, it could be March 2016 before signs start cropping up.

I'll have a look and see what else I find.  I actually first became aware of this development about a month ago, but said nothing because I couldn't be sure then that it wasn't a fluke.

This seems logical, though, given the recent abandonment of the Fighting Sioux mascot at UND, and given that this would certainly rile up the very vocal minority opposed to that action, it makes sense not to publicize it too much.

I see that reasoning, but the strategy of presenting that minority with a fait accompli is not without risk.

Do you have a link to those construction specs you mentioned?

NDDOT has construction plans online and the new route marker design is included as a sheet in the contracts that actually call for use of a state route marker.  Here is an example (Job 8 in the letting of December 16, 2015, page 93 in the PDF):

http://www.dot.nd.gov/business/bidopenings/20151216-0930%5CJob%2008%5CSOIB-SOI-4-023(019)087%20Final%20Plans%202of4.pdf

[corco]

Interesting. I was in Williston a couple weeks ago, which has a bunch of new signs for ND 1804 that popped up when US 85 was rerouted around Williston earlier this year, but those are Indian Head shields.

I'll probably be in or close enough to Watford to detour over there in the next few months, so I'll keep my eyes open.

[J N Winkler]

I looked some more and my first discovery of the new route marker seems to have been last October 20, in a ND 200 (part of MSR 200) contract in the western part of the state.  It also turns out there is a three-digit independent-mount version after all.

Screenshot:

[corco]

How far west? I was on parts of ND 200 in July and didn't see them.

[J N Winkler]

The contract includes county line signs for Dunn and McKenzie Counties which I presume are to be erected at the ND 200 crossing--so, pretty far west.  But this was an October advertisement, so they might not even have decided to change the marker in July.

[corco]

Oh, gotcha. I was thinking October 2014.

[vtk]

I looked some more and my first discovery of the new route marker seems to have been last October 20, in a ND 200 (part of MSR 200) contract in the western part of the state.  It also turns out there is a three-digit independent-mount version after all.

Screenshot:

I note that the wide version of the state outline is not a simple geometric stretch; the left and right edges are only scaled about an extra 10% horizontally, with the top and bottom edges extended to make up most of the additional overall width. Also, the smallest wide shield is 24" by 18", which is a 4:3 ratio, slightly wider than the 5:4 used by the larger sizes and most other 3-digit route marker designs.

[Henry]

So ND has finally jumped on the "state outline on highway markers" bandwagon? Interesting!

However, I like that the signs will remain black and white to distinguish themselves from their green cousins in SD.

[Scott5114]

I looked some more and my first discovery of the new route marker seems to have been last October 20, in a ND 200 (part of MSR 200) contract in the western part of the state.  It also turns out there is a three-digit independent-mount version after all.

Screenshot:

Is the PDF this is from still online? I'll give the Wikipedia shields department a heads-up so we can get some SVGs made.

Nice catch, by the way. If it wasn't for you sitting there reading all the sign plans, we'd have had no idea.

I'm a little disappointed because I like the existing ND design aesthetically, but it makes sense why it is being retired, and it always was kind of awkward in 3-digit applications.

[jakeroot]

it always was kind of awkward in 3-digit applications.

Exactly why I have been proposing a replacement for the George Washington bust here in Washington State. After two digits, the letters start getting cramped. I do wonder if readability suffers as a result, but I don't have the money or time to perform any meaningful tests.

Here's a comparison between ND and WA. At least North Dakota had a 3-digit width:

 

[J N Winkler]

Is the PDF this is from still online? I'll give the Wikipedia shields department a heads-up so we can get some SVGs made.

It is page 75 in this PDF file (part of Job 31 in the letting of November 13, 2015):

http://www.dot.nd.gov/business/bidopenings/20151113-0930/Job%2031/SOIB-5-200(024)075%20Final%20Plans%203of7%20ED.pdf

This file may not always remain online at that URL, but NDDOT archives letting plans online, so one way or another it should remain available indefinitely.

Nice catch, by the way. If it wasn't for you sitting there reading all the sign plans, we'd have had no idea.

I am happy to be of help.  I don't know, though, if they plan to follow your own state's example and swap out the existing markers within a relatively short period of time.  At this point I have seen the new marker only in contract plans for jobs in the western part of the state.  I haven't actually travelled to North Dakota in fifteen years (last visit was in 2000 to see Theodore Roosevelt National Park).

I'll keep an eye out for the guide-sign markers.

[SD Mapman]

So ND has finally jumped on the "state outline on highway markers" bandwagon? Interesting!

However, I like that the signs will remain black and white to distinguish themselves from their green cousins in SD.

SD might be moving to black and white, too. I saw black-and-white shields at the SD 324 exit in 2014, but that could have just been stupid East River contractor error.

I'm a little disappointed because I like the existing ND design aesthetically, but it makes sense why it is being retired, and it always was kind of awkward in 3-digit applications.

It was really awkward for 4 digits.

[Henry]

So ND has finally jumped on the "state outline on highway markers" bandwagon? Interesting!

However, I like that the signs will remain black and white to distinguish themselves from their green cousins in SD.

SD might be moving to black and white, too. I saw black-and-white shields at the SD 324 exit in 2014, but that could have just been stupid East River contractor error.

If that is true, wouldn't it be confusing to the average driver? ND and SD look almost the same, so it would be better off keeping the green and white signs up so that the differences will be more obvious.

[corco]

Well the ND shield says "NORTH DAKOTA" on it, so that should be a pretty good giveaway if people are confused about which Dakota they are in.

Perhaps more importantly, I don't know that a single out-of-region tourist (roadgeeks excluded) has ever driven from one Dakota directly to the other on anything but US-85 or I-29, so honestly I'm not sure that there's that much room for confusion. The Dakota borderlands are pretty sparsely populated and travelled to - the "average driver" wouldn't likely ever even be in a position to be confused by it.

[J N Winkler]

Well the ND shield says "NORTH DAKOTA" on it, so that should be a pretty good giveaway if people are confused about which Dakota they are in.

Another giveaway is that the SD shield has curved north and south borders while the new ND shield does not (I suspect the distinction is between Robinson and Mercator projections).

--fixed quote

[wriddle082]

Does this leave Washington alone in the "busts as markers" design category?

New Hampshire still has the "Old Man in the Mountain" shields, which I suppose is a bust.  And since the Old Man is no more, there's a "slight" chance they could change it, though the memory will likely keep it alive.

[SD Mapman]

Well the ND shield says "NORTH DAKOTA" on it, so that should be a pretty good giveaway if people are confused about which Dakota they are in.

Another giveaway is that the SD shield has curved north and south borders while the new ND shield does not (I suspect the distinction is between Robinson and Mercator projections).

--fixed quote

Some SD shields are made lazily and have straight borders. Again, contractor errors.

[vdeane]

It seems to me that the new shields will look essentially identical on guide signs.  The "green" SD shields are really just green borders, so the fact that the border is green does nothing to differentiate the shield on a guide sign, and I can't imagine that the "North Dakota" text will make it onto a guide sign either.  Looks too much like a banner in that circumstance.

[J N Winkler]

It seems to me that the new shields will look essentially identical on guide signs.  The "green" SD shields are really just green borders, so the fact that the border is green does nothing to differentiate the shield on a guide sign, and I can't imagine that the "North Dakota" text will make it onto a guide sign either.  Looks too much like a banner in that circumstance.

We will just have to see how things develop.  My suspicion is that if NDDOT decides to eliminate "NORTH DAKOTA" for the guide-sign marker, as is a reasonable choice for keeping digit height above a minimum value that allows easy reading, they will have to follow SDDOT's example and use a three-digit-width shield for both two- and three-digit routes since neither state outline is really recognizable when it is manipulated to fill a square box completely.

Per Corco's observations, I would expect recognition to be a problem only in situations involving borderlands travel near the I-29 corridor (the only freeway that crosses the border between the two states) where the driver is able to move between a SD freeway sign with the SD guide-sign shield and a ND freeway sign with the ND guide-sign shield without being aware of crossing a state line or being exposed to the independent-mount shields in both states, which are readily differentiable from each other.

Such a thing can happen (I made a silent crossing of the Kansas/Nebraska state line on a county road when visiting the Arikaree Breaks several weeks ago, and confirmed I was in Nebraska largely on the basis of cues like bolded digits and white outlines on route markers once I hit US 34), but working out an itinerary whereby it is possible is not a trivial task.