Higher Speed Limits Considered in near Dallas Freeways

[Aren Cambre]

In going back and looking through it some more, the original environmental speed limits and the cancellations of them only applied from the loop (I-20/I-635/SH 121/I-820) outwards, so they never would have applied to the northern section of I-45 to begin with. I did do a search to see if I could find any references to that control section in the MOs, and there weren't any, so I'm as stumped as you. The only thing I can think of is that maybe that portion was never legally changed to 60 to begin with, and posting back as 65 was just correcting that earlier error?

I'm nearly certain I-45 north of I-20 was 60 MPH before ESLs.

[wxfree]

In going back and looking through it some more, the original environmental speed limits and the cancellations of them only applied from the loop (I-20/I-635/SH 121/I-820) outwards, so they never would have applied to the northern section of I-45 to begin with. I did do a search to see if I could find any references to that control section in the MOs, and there weren't any, so I'm as stumped as you. The only thing I can think of is that maybe that portion was never legally changed to 60 to begin with, and posting back as 65 was just correcting that earlier error?

I'm nearly certain I-45 north of I-20 was 60 MPH before ESLs.

It was.  Here's a map from 2001 showing the original ESLs.  Everything that isn't marked had a speed limit of 60 or less.  The file is no longer at the location I got it from on the NCTCOG web site, so I put it on my site.
http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/ESL_Map.pdf

On a semi-related note, here are the original speed zone minute orders going back go 1995, at the end of the 55 era.  Obviously, many have changed, but most of the ones set around DFW were still in effect in 2001.  The first one is from November, 1995 for Interstates and some urban freeways.  Mostly this is only for roads within cities.  The speed limits outside cities would go to the default of 70 and, at the time, 65 at night.  The minute order for parts inside cities was needed to change the lower limits that had been set by city ordinance.
http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/interstates.pdf

In January 1996 the speed changes to state and US highways were made.
http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/shus.pdf

More speed limits were set in Tarrant County in February.
http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/tarrant96.pdf

In June was the biggest speed zone minute order ever, setting speeds on FM/RM roads.  Remember that this list includes only parts of roads in cities, changing the limit from those set by past city ordinance, and rural parts with limits other than the default of 70/65.
http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/fm.pdf

Many limits have been lowered because of development, and many have been increased due to road improvements or changes in law (70 was the highest at the time).  But overall, these minute orders show the foundation on which the current era, post-55, speed limits are built and what they looked like pre-ESL.

[wxfree]

Interestingly, the same part of I-45 is left out of the old minute order.  The southernmost 9.064 miles had a speed limit of 65, later lowered to 60, and recently restored to 65, while everything north of there isn't included.  Again, it would appear that the speed limit was set by city ordinance.  It's both frustrating and amusing that looking at all of this information just leads back the same question.

[wxfree]

This isn't related to the end of environmental speed limits, but the Chisholm Trail Parkway will have a speed limit increase.  The road has a ridiculous 50 mph speed limit between I-20 and I-30.  Most of that zone will have an increase to 60.  The end of the road, past University Dr., will keep the 50 mph limit.  The 60 mph zone to the south between will have a speed increase to 65.  The 70 mph zone will not change.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article92667477.html

[MaxConcrete]

This isn't related to the end of environmental speed limits, but the Chisholm Trail Parkway will have a speed limit increase

That's a much-needed speed limit increase. Driving 50 mph felt more like going 30mph. I'm wondering about the rationale for maintaining the 50mph limit east of University. The design is certainly suitable for a 60mph limit. I"m thinking that section will be raised to 60mph sometime in the future, hopefully sooner rather than later.

[wxfree]

This isn't related to the end of environmental speed limits, but the Chisholm Trail Parkway will have a speed limit increase.  The road has a ridiculous 50 mph speed limit between I-20 and I-30.  Most of that zone will have an increase to 60.  The end of the road, past University Dr., will keep the 50 mph limit.  The 60 mph zone to the south between will have a speed increase to 65.  The 70 mph zone will not change.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article92667477.html

These speed limits are official now, with signs posted.

[wxfree]

We have an update this month, with increases on I-45.  Speed limits will be 75 as far north as the Ferris city limit, about at the southern interchange with Business 45, will remain 70 in Ferris, and will increase to 70 in Dallas County as far north as I-20.  North of there the speed limit will remain at 65.

This gives I-45 the fastest approach from the south, which is suitable due to its more rural character.  The other two southern approaches have a speed limit of 70 up to the Dallas County line and then 65 north of there.  I-45 will have a limit 5 mph higher, excluding 1.8 miles in Ferris, as far north as I-20.  I'm updating the maps.  Since links to the maps are given on previous pages, and in different posts on different pages, I'll give both again here.  I've changed the red lines showing 75 mph speed limits to green circles, which are easier to see since the highways are red lines.

This map shows new speed limits that are higher than the environmental speed limits.  Red is 65, yellow is 70, and green is 75.

http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/postesl.jpg

For longer-term perspective, this map shows differences between current limits and those in place in the late 90s, before environmental limits.  There have been some impressive increases on urban freeways.  Spots mean the limit is higher, lines mean they're lower.  Yellow spots are 5 mph higher, red spots are 10 mph higher, and green spots are 15 mph higher.  Green lines mean 5 mph lower, black lines mean 10 mph lower.

http://www.patternsandprinciples.com/otherfiles/rs/eslcomps.jpg

Edit -  Due to the above-noted difficulty with knowing speed limits on I-45 north of I-20, I won't know if the limit is increased to 70 there until someone reports it.  I basically never have a reason to go there myself.  If you see changes, I'd like to know.

[MaxConcrete]

We have an update this month, with increases on I-45.  Speed limits will be 75 as far north as the Ferris city limit, about at the southern interchange with Business 45, will remain 70 in Ferris, and will increase to 70 in Dallas County as far north as I-20.  North of there the speed limit will remain at 65.

Wow, this is great news to finally get logical speed limits on that section of I-45. For years and years going northbound I've always been on the lookout for the water tower with the illustration of the yellow jacket wasp (local mascot) on the county line to know to slow way down for the artificially low speed limit in Dallas County, and frequent radar traps.

After 3+ hours driving from Houston, motorists can now continue cruising all the way to I-20.

[dfwmapper]

When was the change made? I don't mind making the trip to check but it's a waste of gas if the change was just made this month and Dallas District needs a month or two to get it up.

Also, we should really get the limit lowered to like 15 just to keep the FHBs out .

[wxfree]

The change is expected to be ordered at the TTC meeting Thursday.  After that, it'll probably take a couple of months for the signs to be changed.  The Dallas district seems to change the signs pretty quickly.  The Fort Worth district takes longer, when they change the signs at all.  There's one from almost nine years ago, and more from one to four years ago, that they just never got around to.  They changed the signs for the removal of environmental speed limits, but took a couple of months longer than Dallas.

[dfwmapper]

Yeah, remind me around the end of April and I'll make the trip south and see if anything is posted.

Which segments haven't been updated yet in Ft. Worth District? I know you probably mentioned it somewhere but searching is too difficult. Have you tried asking the district PIO? The ones I've contacted have been good about answering detailed questions, though it might take a few weeks if they need to kick it around to a few people for a definitive answer.

[wxfree]

Yeah, remind me around the end of April and I'll make the trip south and see if anything is posted.

Which segments haven't been updated yet in Ft. Worth District? I know you probably mentioned it somewhere but searching is too difficult. Have you tried asking the district PIO? The ones I've contacted have been good about answering detailed questions, though it might take a few weeks if they need to kick it around to a few people for a definitive answer.

I've just happened to notice some.  Here are some of ones I remember that weren't posted as of the last time I went that way.

US 67 southwest of Dublin, 70 to 75
Loop 567 east of FM 51, 50 to 55
FM 167 south of FM 4, 45 to 35 (I saw that this one still wasn't changed today)
FM 200 west of FM 1434, 60 to 65
SH 171 south of FM 916, 50 and 60 to 55
FM 1434, 60 to 55, this was an emergency order and it was still ignored
parts of FMs 4, 51, and 56 were ordered to 75 and were never posted, those were cancelled a few years later

TxDOT is usually pretty fastidious about signing, which I appreciate.  That's why it's so noticeable when things get overlooked.  I haven't asked about it.  I have more of a wait-for-however-many-years-and-see approach.

[compdude787]

If only every urban areas had their speed limits as high as the ones in Dallas

[Rothman]

Wouldn't work in Boston or NYC due to the constrained geometrics of the highways.  Narrow lanes, frequent access points and the like.

[Aren Cambre]

Wouldn't work in Boston or NYC due to the constrained geometrics of the highways.  Narrow lanes, frequent access points and the like.

You've got to admit that NYC and Boston speed limits are arbitrarily low, even if they can't be feasibly raised to Texas standards.

[compdude787]

Wouldn't work in Boston or NYC due to the constrained geometrics of the highways.  Narrow lanes, frequent access points and the like.

True. I've always been amazed that the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway was able to get an interstate shield on it. I guess you can thank Robert Moses for that!

[Rothman]

Wouldn't work in Boston or NYC due to the constrained geometrics of the highways.  Narrow lanes, frequent access points and the like.

You've got to admit that NYC and Boston speed limits are arbitrarily low, even if they can't be feasibly raised to Texas standards.

Not right in the cities themselves.

I'm more annoyed that rural interstates in NY, MA and elsewhere that are stuck at 65 than I am at the typical 55 mph urban limits or even the lower limits through the Big Dig, Cross Bronx and other similar facilities.

[Aren Cambre]

Wouldn't work in Boston or NYC due to the constrained geometrics of the highways.  Narrow lanes, frequent access points and the like.

You've got to admit that NYC and Boston speed limits are arbitrarily low, even if they can't be feasibly raised to Texas standards.

Not right in the cities themselves.

I'm more annoyed that rural interstates in NY, MA and elsewhere that are stuck at 65 than I am at the typical 55 mph urban limits or even the lower limits through the Big Dig, Cross Bronx and other similar facilities.

You're going to look at me with a straight face and tell me that I will fly off this mid-NYC freeway if I go faster than 45 MPH?

[Rothman]

Wouldn't work in Boston or NYC due to the constrained geometrics of the highways.  Narrow lanes, frequent access points and the like.

You've got to admit that NYC and Boston speed limits are arbitrarily low, even if they can't be feasibly raised to Texas standards.

Not right in the cities themselves.

I'm more annoyed that rural interstates in NY, MA and elsewhere that are stuck at 65 than I am at the typical 55 mph urban limits or even the lower limits through the Big Dig, Cross Bronx and other similar facilities.

You're going to look at me with a straight face and tell me that I will fly off this mid-NYC freeway if I go faster than 45 MPH?

The 45 mph is appropriate for the BQE and Gowanus given typical traffic and geometry.

[Aren Cambre]

Wouldn't work in Boston or NYC due to the constrained geometrics of the highways.  Narrow lanes, frequent access points and the like.

You've got to admit that NYC and Boston speed limits are arbitrarily low, even if they can't be feasibly raised to Texas standards.

Not right in the cities themselves.

I'm more annoyed that rural interstates in NY, MA and elsewhere that are stuck at 65 than I am at the typical 55 mph urban limits or even the lower limits through the Big Dig, Cross Bronx and other similar facilities.

You're going to look at me with a straight face and tell me that I will fly off this mid-NYC freeway if I go faster than 45 MPH?

The 45 mph is appropriate for the BQE and Gowanus given typical traffic and geometry.

I'm very, very skeptical. I haven't died on the Dallas North Tollway (sample location with 50 mph advisory speed), with a 65 mph limit, higher operating speeds, and outdated geometrics due to tight ROW?

[compdude787]

Boy, I didn't realize how much like a NYC expressway the Dallas North Tollway was. I'm surprised that that road even has a 65mph speed limit! I'd definitely expect it to be like 50 or 55.

[Aren Cambre]

Boy, I didn't realize how much like a NYC expressway the Dallas North Tollway was. I'm surprised that that road even has a 65mph speed limit! I'd definitely expect it to be like 50 or 55.

It used to be 55, but that was exposed as being an illegally low limit and a ticket trap: https://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1985.asp.

[compdude787]

Boy, people drive fast in Texas! I don't blame them though; it is a toll road, and if the tolls are set at the right price, it should experience less congestion because people won't be driving on it unless they feel that they absolutely have to.

[Aren Cambre]

Boy, people drive fast in Texas! I don't blame them though; it is a toll road, and if the tolls are set at the right price, it should experience less congestion because people won't be driving on it unless they feel that they absolutely have to.

People drive fast everywhere. When you raise speed limits, the biggest change you get is increased compliance, not faster speeds.

[AlexandriaVA]

What's everyone's rush in Texas anyway?