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Massachusetts

Started by hotdogPi, October 12, 2013, 04:50:12 PM

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Pete from Boston

Roadgeekery in the mainstream: WGBH discusses the "bookleaf"  shape of Massachusetts town-line signs.

https://www.wgbh.org/news/lifestyle/2019/08/13/why-are-town-line-signs-in-massachusetts-shaped-like-a-book


bob7374

Quote from: 1 on August 14, 2019, 03:24:01 PM
Quote from: 5foot14 on August 14, 2019, 01:01:32 PM
What about keeping I-93 as is but, make MA 24 into a spur route of I-93, such as I-193? Then nothing else but MA 24 has to change...

SM-G900P

MA 193 already exists. I recommend I-593.
IMO Given that it would run between 2 interstates and cross a third, an even number would work better, I-293? That would be useful if there was thought of signing the more interstate ready portion north of I-495 first. Of course, we all know that if I-93 is to be rerouted, it should be down MA 3 to US 6 at the Sagamore Bridge.  :D

PHLBOS

Quote from: bob7374 on August 14, 2019, 10:41:34 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 14, 2019, 03:24:01 PM
Quote from: 5foot14 on August 14, 2019, 01:01:32 PM
What about keeping I-93 as is but, make MA 24 into a spur route of I-93, such as I-193? Then nothing else but MA 24 has to change...

SM-G900P

MA 193 already exists. I recommend I-593.
IMO Given that it would run between 2 interstates and cross a third, an even number would work better, I-293? That would be useful if there was thought of signing the more interstate ready portion north of I-495 first.
I've had the thought of redesignating MA 24 as I-293 (from I-195 northward) since the 1980s.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

mb2001

Quote from: PHLBOS on August 19, 2019, 09:12:18 AM
Quote from: bob7374 on August 14, 2019, 10:41:34 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 14, 2019, 03:24:01 PM
Quote from: 5foot14 on August 14, 2019, 01:01:32 PM
What about keeping I-93 as is but, make MA 24 into a spur route of I-93, such as I-193? Then nothing else but MA 24 has to change...

SM-G900P

MA 193 already exists. I recommend I-593.
IMO Given that it would run between 2 interstates and cross a third, an even number would work better, I-293? That would be useful if there was thought of signing the more interstate ready portion north of I-495 first.
I've had the thought of redesignating MA 24 as I-293 (from I-195 northward) since the 1980s.

The only problem is that I-293 already exists up in NH. They're in separate states so it's legal, but I'd recommend choosing a different number.

PHLBOS

#1229
Quote from: mb2001 on August 20, 2019, 10:33:44 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 19, 2019, 09:12:18 AM
Quote from: bob7374 on August 14, 2019, 10:41:34 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 14, 2019, 03:24:01 PM
Quote from: 5foot14 on August 14, 2019, 01:01:32 PM
What about keeping I-93 as is but, make MA 24 into a spur route of I-93, such as I-193? Then nothing else but MA 24 has to change...

MA 193 already exists. I recommend I-593.
IMO Given that it would run between 2 interstates and cross a third, an even number would work better, I-293? That would be useful if there was thought of signing the more interstate ready portion north of I-495 first.
I've had the thought of redesignating MA 24 as I-293 (from I-195 northward) since the 1980s.

The only problem is that I-293 already exists up in NH. They're in separate states so it's legal, but I'd recommend choosing a different number.
MA 24 is far enough away from NH's I-293 so that (if it were to ever happen) redesignating it as such will not cause any confusion between those two routes.  The two I-291s in MA & CT are in much closer proximity and there's no confusion/mix-up issues regarding those two routes that I'm aware of.  If we were discussion doing such with MA 213 OTOH; your concern for confusion would be more warranted.

Truth be told, I don't believe there is a hard, fast rule regarding the minimum distance that two separate 3dis bearing the same route number in adjacent states can be from each other.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

bob7374

Quote from: PHLBOS on August 21, 2019, 08:25:57 AM
Quote from: mb2001 on August 20, 2019, 10:33:44 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 19, 2019, 09:12:18 AM
Quote from: bob7374 on August 14, 2019, 10:41:34 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 14, 2019, 03:24:01 PM
Quote from: 5foot14 on August 14, 2019, 01:01:32 PM
What about keeping I-93 as is but, make MA 24 into a spur route of I-93, such as I-193? Then nothing else but MA 24 has to change...

MA 193 already exists. I recommend I-593.
IMO Given that it would run between 2 interstates and cross a third, an even number would work better, I-293? That would be useful if there was thought of signing the more interstate ready portion north of I-495 first.
I've had the thought of redesignating MA 24 as I-293 (from I-195 northward) since the 1980s.

The only problem is that I-293 already exists up in NH. They're in separate states so it's legal, but I'd recommend choosing a different number.
MA 24 is far enough away from NH's I-293 so that (if it were to ever happen) redesignating it as such will not cause any confusion between those two routes.  The two I-291s in MA & CT are in much closer proximity and there's no confusion/mix-up issues regarding those two routes that I'm aware of.  If we were discussion doing such with MA 213 OTOH; your concern for confusion would be more warranted.

Truth be told, I don't believe there is a hard, fast rule regarding the minimum distance that two separate 3dis bearing the same route number in adjacent states can be from each other.
This article from earlier this year talks about safety problems on Route 24 brings up current planned projects and the past proposals to upgrade the road to interstate standards. A member of the organization that pushed for an interstate designation about 10 years ago says that now it would be long-term and expensive project, if MassDOT decides to proceed.
https://www.heraldnews.com/news/20190304/road-from-hell-route-24-is-dangerous-deadly-highway

empirestate

Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 14, 2019, 05:56:28 PM
Roadgeekery in the mainstream: WGBH discusses the "bookleaf"  shape of Massachusetts town-line signs.

https://www.wgbh.org/news/lifestyle/2019/08/13/why-are-town-line-signs-in-massachusetts-shaped-like-a-book

Gotta love how the very question posed by the headline, that is to say the whole central premise of the article, is off-handedly thrown away as unknown once you actually read it. :-D

PHLBOS

#1232
Quote from: empirestate on August 30, 2019, 01:37:32 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 14, 2019, 05:56:28 PM
Roadgeekery in the mainstream: WGBH discusses the "bookleaf"  shape of Massachusetts town-line signs.

https://www.wgbh.org/news/lifestyle/2019/08/13/why-are-town-line-signs-in-massachusetts-shaped-like-a-book

Gotta love how the very question posed by the headline, that is to say the whole central premise of the article, is off-handedly thrown away as unknown once you actually read it. :-D
It's worth noting, and such is not mentioned in the above-article, that prior to the mid-1970s(?); the bookleaf design motif ran along the bottom of the sign as well. 
Example.
I don't believe that one has to have a Facebook account to view.

From the movie Alice's Restaurant: See 1:13:30 for old-style bookleaf sign.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP05C_agI3k
GPS does NOT equal GOD

jp the roadgeek

Quote from: PHLBOS on August 30, 2019, 02:09:47 PM
Quote from: empirestate on August 30, 2019, 01:37:32 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 14, 2019, 05:56:28 PM
Roadgeekery in the mainstream: WGBH discusses the "bookleaf"  shape of Massachusetts town-line signs.

https://www.wgbh.org/news/lifestyle/2019/08/13/why-are-town-line-signs-in-massachusetts-shaped-like-a-book

Gotta love how the very question posed by the headline, that is to say the whole central premise of the article, is off-handedly thrown away as unknown once you actually read it. :-D
It's worth noting, and such is not mentioned in the above-article, that prior to the mid-1970s(?); the bookleaf design motif ran along the bottom of the sign as well. 
Example.
I don't believe that one has to have a Facebook account to view.

From the movie Alice's Restaurant: See 1:13:30 for old-style bookleaf sign.

I've always wondered where that NY border crossing at 1:13:54 is located.  There's really no spot that I'm familiar with where a highway runs so close parallel to the CT/NY border like that.  At least the MA/CT crossing looks like US 7 between Sheffield and North Canaan.
Interstates I've clinched: 97, 290 (MA), 291 (CT), 291 (MA), 293, 295 (DE-NJ-PA), 295 (RI-MA), 384, 391, 395 (CT-MA), 395 (MD), 495 (DE), 610 (LA), 684, 691, 695 (MD), 695 (NY), 795 (MD)

KEVIN_224

The only one I'm aware of NY Route 120A by Greenwich. The bridge for it spans the state line over the Hutchinson River Parkway/Merritt Parkway (CT Route 15). Also note the change in median style by the bridge.


bob7374

MassDOT has advertised for bids for the US 1 Chelsea to Danvers Sign Replacement Project, winning bidder to be announced on November 19. The project page with a link to the Notice to Contractors is at:
https://www.commbuys.com/bso/external/bidDetail.sdo?docId=BD-20-1030-0H100-0H002-43289&external=true&parentUrl=bid

Alps

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 30, 2019, 03:33:21 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 30, 2019, 02:09:47 PM
Quote from: empirestate on August 30, 2019, 01:37:32 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 14, 2019, 05:56:28 PM
Roadgeekery in the mainstream: WGBH discusses the "bookleaf"  shape of Massachusetts town-line signs.

https://www.wgbh.org/news/lifestyle/2019/08/13/why-are-town-line-signs-in-massachusetts-shaped-like-a-book

Gotta love how the very question posed by the headline, that is to say the whole central premise of the article, is off-handedly thrown away as unknown once you actually read it. :-D
It's worth noting, and such is not mentioned in the above-article, that prior to the mid-1970s(?); the bookleaf design motif ran along the bottom of the sign as well. 
Example.
I don't believe that one has to have a Facebook account to view.

From the movie Alice's Restaurant: See 1:13:30 for old-style bookleaf sign.

I've always wondered where that NY border crossing at 1:13:54 is located.  There's really no spot that I'm familiar with where a highway runs so close parallel to the CT/NY border like that.  At least the MA/CT crossing looks like US 7 between Sheffield and North Canaan.
That seems like a movie setup. The sign just smacks of unofficialness.

kefkafloyd

I'm also pretty sure that the bookleaf sign on route 7 in the 1960s coming to/from from Connecticut was on the US 7 North side of the road (same as it is today), and not the southbound side as seen in the movie. Michael Summa has a pic of the entering Mass side of this very sign that's up on Steve's site, and it's on the opposite side of their van.

I'm also fairly certain even the old bookleafs would say "Welcome to Town Name, ST" and not just "CONNECITCUT."

roadman

#1238
Quote from: kefkafloyd on September 01, 2019, 05:20:15 PM
I'm also pretty sure that the bookleaf sign on route 7 in the 1960s coming to/from from Connecticut was on the US 7 North side of the road (same as it is today), and not the southbound side as seen in the movie. Michael Summa has a pic of the entering Mass side of this very sign that's up on Steve's site, and it's on the opposite side of their van.

I'm also fairly certain even the old bookleafs would say "Welcome to Town Name, ST" and not just "CONNECITCUT."

At state borders, Massachusetts-installed bookleaf signs typically read 'ENTERING (town and state) - without a state shield or an EST (or INC) date - for the adjacent state.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

KEVIN_224

The state seal is usually missing when entering the bordering state. This was MA Route 111, coming in from Pepperell, MA in August of 2018.


SidS1045

Quote from: roadman on September 04, 2019, 09:39:09 AMAt state borders, Massachusetts-installed bookleaf signs typically read 'ENTERING (town and state) - without a state shield or an EST (or INC) date - for the adjacent state.

With at least one exception:  Where I-95 enters Rhode Island, the side of the bookleaf sign which says "ENTERING PAWTUCKET R.I." also has the RI state shield.

A bit hard to see, but here it is on GSV:  https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8944795,-71.3758556,3a,75y,210.2h,99.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siMaLHgeG6pwUpJmVPA7rXg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
"A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves." - Edward R. Murrow

KEVIN_224

Managed to get a better shot for you! :)


PHLBOS

Quote from: SidS1045 on September 04, 2019, 03:03:46 PM
Quote from: roadman on September 04, 2019, 09:39:09 AMAt state borders, Massachusetts-installed bookleaf signs typically read 'ENTERING (town and state) - without a state shield or an EST (or INC) date - for the adjacent state.

With at least one exception:  Where I-95 enters Rhode Island, the side of the bookleaf sign which says "ENTERING PAWTUCKET R.I." also has the RI state shield.

A bit hard to see, but here it is on GSV:  https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8944795,-71.3758556,3a,75y,210.2h,99.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siMaLHgeG6pwUpJmVPA7rXg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on September 04, 2019, 03:12:24 PM
Managed to get a better shot for you! :)


It would appear that the rusted sign post is as old as this overhead gantry and sign panels.  Such dates back to 1977.  While the bookleaf sign is newer; one has to wonder if such was a match-in-kind replacement.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

jp the roadgeek

Looks like there's a few at the MA/NY border.  The ones for MA/NY 23 and MA/NY 71 are pretty blurry, but I found this one on US 20. 

Found this one with the CT symbol at the border on CT/MA 8.  The newer ones, such as the one just south of Six Flags on CT/MA 159, omit the CT state shield.
Interstates I've clinched: 97, 290 (MA), 291 (CT), 291 (MA), 293, 295 (DE-NJ-PA), 295 (RI-MA), 384, 391, 395 (CT-MA), 395 (MD), 495 (DE), 610 (LA), 684, 691, 695 (MD), 695 (NY), 795 (MD)

PHLBOS

#1244
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on September 04, 2019, 04:35:08 PM
Looks like there's a few at the MA/NY border.  The ones for MA/NY 23 and MA/NY 71 are pretty blurry, but I found this one on US 20. 

Found this one with the CT symbol at the border on CT/MA 8.
It's interesting that those signs feature the Massachusetts shield on the side listing another state's town.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

AMLNet49

Quote from: bob7374 on August 31, 2019, 10:43:06 AM
MassDOT has advertised for bids for the US 1 Chelsea to Danvers Sign Replacement Project, winning bidder to be announced on November 19. The project page with a link to the Notice to Contractors is at:
https://www.commbuys.com/bso/external/bidDetail.sdo?docId=BD-20-1030-0H100-0H002-43289&external=true&parentUrl=bid

Would love to see exit numbers on this part of US 1. And on Route 1A between I-93 and MA 145

Pete from Boston

Quote from: AMLNet49 on September 14, 2019, 11:54:01 PM
Quote from: bob7374 on August 31, 2019, 10:43:06 AM
MassDOT has advertised for bids for the US 1 Chelsea to Danvers Sign Replacement Project, winning bidder to be announced on November 19. The project page with a link to the Notice to Contractors is at:
https://www.commbuys.com/bso/external/bidDetail.sdo?docId=BD-20-1030-0H100-0H002-43289&external=true&parentUrl=bid

Would love to see exit numbers on this part of US 1. And on Route 1A between I-93 and MA 145

Both have a fair number of side streets. I'm assuming you don't number those.

jp the roadgeek

If exits were to be numbered on 1 and 1A, I would only number 1 exits up to Lynn St and 1A up to MA 145.  Would look something like this for mileage based exits:

US 1
Exit 47 (SB ONLY): Rutherford St Charlestown//TO I-93 NORTH
Exit 49 (NB ONLY): Beacon St
Exit 50: 4th St (NB) Carter Ave Chelsea/East Boston (SB)
Exit 51A (NB ONLY): Webster Ave Chelsea/Everett
Exit 51B (NB): MA 16 EAST TO MA 1A Revere Beach/Lynn
Exit 51 (SB): MA 16 WEST Everett/Somerville
Exit 52 (NB ONLY): Sargent St West Revere
Exit 53: MA 60 Malden/Revere
Exit 54 A/B: Lynn St Saugus/Malden

MA 1A
Exit 49: Havre St (NB) Porter St (SB)/ East Boston
Exit 50A: Logan Airport (NB); I-90 (Mass Pike) WEST TO I-93 SOUTH Ted Williams Tunnel/South Boston (NOTE: Logan would be signed as an I-90 exit)

Exit 50B: MA 145 NORTH Bennington St (NB); Saratoga St/Chelsea St (SB)
Interstates I've clinched: 97, 290 (MA), 291 (CT), 291 (MA), 293, 295 (DE-NJ-PA), 295 (RI-MA), 384, 391, 395 (CT-MA), 395 (MD), 495 (DE), 610 (LA), 684, 691, 695 (MD), 695 (NY), 795 (MD)

Pete from Boston

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on September 15, 2019, 12:34:02 PM
If exits were to be numbered on 1 and 1A, I would only number 1 exits up to Lynn St and 1A up to MA 145.  Would look something like this for mileage based exits:

US 1
Exit 47 (SB ONLY): Rutherford St Charlestown//TO I-93 NORTH
Exit 49 (NB ONLY): Beacon St
Exit 50: 4th St (NB) Carter Ave Chelsea/East Boston (SB)
Exit 51A (NB ONLY): Webster Ave Chelsea/Everett
Exit 51B (NB): MA 16 EAST TO MA 1A Revere Beach/Lynn
Exit 51 (SB): MA 16 WEST Everett/Somerville
Exit 52 (NB ONLY): Sargent St West Revere
Exit 53: MA 60 Malden/Revere
Exit 54 A/B: Lynn St Saugus/Malden

MA 1A
Exit 49: Havre St (NB) Porter St (SB)/ East Boston
Exit 50A: Logan Airport (NB); I-90 (Mass Pike) WEST TO I-93 SOUTH Ted Williams Tunnel/South Boston (NOTE: Logan would be signed as an I-90 exit)

Exit 50B: MA 145 NORTH Bennington St (NB); Saratoga St/Chelsea St (SB)

Oh, right, Bennington St., not Winthrop St. (also 145).

I'm not sure if it more helps or confuses to just number three exits.

hotdogPi

I would just number them starting at 1 (but still mile-based). It's extremely unlikely that the freeway will be extended to the southwest, and I-93 makes a good starting point.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.



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