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US 31/I-465 around Indianapolis

Started by hbelkins, October 02, 2016, 07:34:54 PM

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silverback1065

Quote from: mrsman on May 18, 2018, 10:17:04 AM
IMO, it's a shame that control cities are not used at all on I465 (with the exception of the portion multiplexed with I-74).  If they are directing all this thru traffic onto it, they should better direct them where to go.  The control cities used should follow the method of other midwestern beltways and use the controls of the 2dis that it intersects with (and not local suburbs).  Chicago, Dayton, Louisville, and St Louis will all be good controls.  Chicago should be on as many signs as possible to direct traffic from the south side of I-65 clockwise, and from the east side of I-70 counter clockwise.

i-270 in colombus, ohio is like this, i think its a good idea


silverback1065

INDOT just did a traffic study and found that only 10% of traffic is through traffic (crossing 465 twice)

mrsman

Quote from: silverback1065 on May 18, 2018, 12:07:02 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 18, 2018, 10:17:04 AM
IMO, it's a shame that control cities are not used at all on I465 (with the exception of the portion multiplexed with I-74).  If they are directing all this thru traffic onto it, they should better direct them where to go.  The control cities used should follow the method of other midwestern beltways and use the controls of the 2dis that it intersects with (and not local suburbs).  Chicago, Dayton, Louisville, and St Louis will all be good controls.  Chicago should be on as many signs as possible to direct traffic from the south side of I-65 clockwise, and from the east side of I-70 counter clockwise.

i-270 in colombus, ohio is like this, i think its a good idea

St. Louis and Atlanta (not in midwest) do this as well.  I associate the practice as being midwestern and helps people get around the cities.  Whereas, you would never see this in the coastal areas.  In the coastal areas, be familiar with the small suburbs where the big 2dis intersect the beltway, because that is your control city.

In St. Louis, it seems like every interchange of I-270 and I-255 (excepting of course I-55 northern) mentions taking one direction of the Beltway to reach Chicago.  Indianapolis should also have this.

The question that tdindy88 raised was wether its appropriate to list every control city.  I'd say no.  The signs should be limited to two control cities each.  [Most interchanges of the I-285 in Atlanta mention two controls.]  The decision has to be based on whichever is a likely destination based on where you are coming from. 

So, I would do the following:

I-65 (Southside):  Fort Wayne/Cincinnati for I-465 east and Peoria/Chicago for I-465 west
I-65 at I-865 (NW Side): Dayton/Cincinnati for I-865 east to I-465
I-65 at I-465 (NW Side): St. Louis/Louisville for I-465 south

I-70 (Westside): Louisville/Cincinnati for I-465 south and Chicago/Fort Wayne for I-465 north
I-70 (Eastside): Louisville/St. Louis for I-465 south and Fort Wayne/Chicago for I-465 north

I-74 (Westside): Chicago/Fort Wayne for I-465 north and Louisville/Cincinnati for I-465 south
I-74 (Eastside): Fort Wayne/Chicago for I-465 north and Louisville/Peoria for I-465 south

I-69 (northside): Chicago/St. Louis for I-465 west and Cincinnati/Louisville for I-465 south

Not a perfect system, but at least it is somewhat helpful to long distance drivers.

Captain Jack

Considering INDOT hasn't even bothered with a northbound control city on I-69 for the entire length from Evansville, southbound on I-69 past I-64, or even a single mileage sign, I wouldn't hold your breath for this.

Curious, once 69 gets to Indy, how would you change them to include Evansville? That seems to get pretty tricky.

silverback1065

Quote from: Captain Jack on May 19, 2018, 11:20:59 AM
Considering INDOT hasn't even bothered with a northbound control city on I-69 for the entire length from Evansville, southbound on I-69 past I-64, or even a single mileage sign, I wouldn't hold your breath for this.

Curious, once 69 gets to Indy, how would you change them to include Evansville? That seems to get pretty tricky.

once 69 makes it to indy you will see control cities

Captain Jack

Quote from: silverback1065 on May 20, 2018, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: Captain Jack on May 19, 2018, 11:20:59 AM
Considering INDOT hasn't even bothered with a northbound control city on I-69 for the entire length from Evansville, southbound on I-69 past I-64, or even a single mileage sign, I wouldn't hold your breath for this.

Curious, once 69 gets to Indy, how would you change them to include Evansville? That seems to get pretty tricky.

once 69 makes it to indy you will see control cities

I don't see why they are waiting at this point. Regardless of whether it is called 69 or SR 37, it is the route to Indianapolis. St. Louis is used as a control city on I-24, and it doesn't get within 100 miles of there, just points you in the general direction.  Frankly, I don't see why they don't put Bloomington on there for now. They can always replace it, or God forbid, have two control cities.  Same for the mileage. There is no reason not to have southbound mileage signs, or for that matter even northbound. It's not like the distance to Indianapolis is going to change with the 37-69 conversion.

SSR_317

Quote from: Captain Jack on May 21, 2018, 12:14:33 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on May 20, 2018, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: Captain Jack on May 19, 2018, 11:20:59 AM
Considering INDOT hasn't even bothered with a northbound control city on I-69 for the entire length from Evansville, southbound on I-69 past I-64, or even a single mileage sign, I wouldn't hold your breath for this.

Curious, once 69 gets to Indy, how would you change them to include Evansville? That seems to get pretty tricky.

once 69 makes it to indy you will see control cities

I don't see why they are waiting at this point. Regardless of whether it is called 69 or SR 37, it is the route to Indianapolis. St. Louis is used as a control city on I-24, and it doesn't get within 100 miles of there, just points you in the general direction.  Frankly, I don't see why they don't put Bloomington on there for now. They can always replace it, or God forbid, have two control cities.  Same for the mileage. There is no reason not to have southbound mileage signs, or for that matter even northbound. It's not like the distance to Indianapolis is going to change with the 37-69 conversion.
I think it is because there has to be an existing Interstate connection to a control city at the end of such a route (or along the way, as with Dayton & I-70). Rather than put Bloomington on as one temporarily, they are cutting costs and waiting to do that until Section 6 is completed (which might not be until 2025, given the present schedule). As you noted, I-24 doesn't get you all the way to St. Louis, but does get you to another Interstate (I-57) which in turn gets you to another (I-64) that does. Same situation with I-65 & Chicago (and many other examples).

Guess INDOT has dismissed doing what MI did near Lansing when the real I-69 (now SIU #1) had a gap between Charlotte & the city and designated what was then US 27 as "Temporary I-69". If they were gonna do that, they would've done it once Section 4 opened a few years ago. Don't know if AASHTO allows that anymore anyway.

There will potentially be a similar dilemma out west, as I-11 is not presently proposed to get anywhere near the city limits of Phoenix. However it will (someday, somewhere) connect to I-10 which does enter Arizona's capitol city, so Phoenix will thus qualify as a control city for I-11. And it will likely soon be signed as one (at least by NDOT) regardless of the completion status of the route in AZ (which might take a decade or two), though how ADOT will handle it is another matter entirely.

hbelkins

I'm pretty sure that the control city on I-64 heading east out of Louisville was Lexington long before 1971, when the gap between Frankfort and Lexington was completed.

Ditto for I-81 northbound at Wytheville for Roanoke despite the gap at Fort Chiswell.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

LM117

I-795 South in North Carolina uses Wilmington as one of the control cities at the US-70 Bypass (Future I-42) interchange just north of Goldsboro even though I-795 ends at US-70 near downtown.

Granted, the FAST Act that Congress passed in 2015 made US-117 between Goldsboro and I-40 a HPC and future extension of I-795, but Wilmington was already being used long before the FAST Act was thought of.
“I don’t know whether to wind my ass or scratch my watch!” - Jim Cornette

mrsman

There is no good reason that Evansville or Memphis could not be signed as the control today.  There are many non freeway routes signed as  long distance cities if that's the best route.  There are also signed as such for incomplete interstates as well.  Take i384 in Hartford with a control for Providence for example.

Nexus 5X


KEVIN_224

I-384 runs from East Hartford to Bolton, CT. Several miles east is a expressway section of US Route 6 near Willimantic, CT. The least Connecticut could do is join those two sections together.

As for Indiana, is there a real reason why US routes don't seem to be signed on their interstates? I once stayed at a hotel off of I-74/I-465. I believe it was Rockville Road/US Route 36, on the west side of the city.

silverback1065

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on May 28, 2018, 08:44:22 PM
I-384 runs from East Hartford to Bolton, CT. Several miles east is a expressway section of US Route 6 near Willimantic, CT. The least Connecticut could do is join those two sections together.

As for Indiana, is there a real reason why US routes don't seem to be signed on their interstates? I once stayed at a hotel off of I-74/I-465. I believe it was Rockville Road/US Route 36, on the west side of the city.

they are on all multiplexed routes, with the only exception being if they are on 465, only multiplexed interstates are cosigned.  it's because there's an assload of state and us routes that use 465 to bypass the inner city. 

silverback1065

Quote from: mrsman on May 28, 2018, 12:53:45 AM
There is no good reason that Evansville or Memphis could not be signed as the control today.  There are many non freeway routes signed as  long distance cities if that's the best route.  There are also signed as such for incomplete interstates as well.  Take i384 in Hartford with a control for Providence for example.

Nexus 5X

i think you're right, but it's indot policy to not give it control cities until it makes it up to 465

Captain Jack

Quote from: silverback1065 on May 29, 2018, 07:36:40 AM
Quote from: mrsman on May 28, 2018, 12:53:45 AM
There is no good reason that Evansville or Memphis could not be signed as the control today.  There are many non freeway routes signed as  long distance cities if that's the best route.  There are also signed as such for incomplete interstates as well.  Take i384 in Hartford with a control for Providence for example.

Nexus 5X

i think you're right, but it's indot policy to not give it control cities until it makes it up to 465

Evansville is signed as the control city southbound from Bloomington. It's northbound that is blank on the completed section from Evansville to Bloomington. No reason Bloomington and or Indianapolis can't be signed.

I guess blank is better than the non-sense Kentucky is doing. They are using Elizabethtown as the control city for northbound 69 starting with the split at I-24. I understand that this used to be the Western KY Parkway, but these are new I-69 signs, and 69 doesn't go anywhere near Elizabethtown, and never will. If they can't bring themselves to use Evansville on there because of the bridge, at least use Henderson.

hbelkins

Quote from: Captain Jack on May 29, 2018, 10:01:24 AM

I guess blank is better than the non-sense Kentucky is doing. They are using Elizabethtown as the control city for northbound 69 starting with the split at I-24. I understand that this used to be the Western KY Parkway, but these are new I-69 signs, and 69 doesn't go anywhere near Elizabethtown, and never will. If they can't bring themselves to use Evansville on there because of the bridge, at least use Henderson.

Probably because -- and this is just a guess on my part -- the majority of long-distance traffic that exits I-24 at that location is going to E-town, not Henderson/Evansville/Indianapolis. My guess is that when the new bridge is completed, it will be time for new signage to be installed. I'd recommend a dual destination of E-town and either Henderson or Evansville.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Life in Paradise

I still get worked up about the fact that southbound I-69 has Fulton all over the place as a control city and mileage.  Just like I-69 north of Evansville.  The road is heading to Indianapolis, whether or not the freeway is done.  It's four lane all the way.  Going south it's heading to Memphis, four lane all the way whether it's I-69 or US-51.  Most people traveling through have no idea what Fulton, KY or South Fulton, TN is or where it is, but they have a better idea where Memphis is.

Captain Jack

#66
Quote from: hbelkins on May 29, 2018, 10:58:55 AM
Quote from: Captain Jack on May 29, 2018, 10:01:24 AM

I guess blank is better than the non-sense Kentucky is doing. They are using Elizabethtown as the control city for northbound 69 starting with the split at I-24. I understand that this used to be the Western KY Parkway, but these are new I-69 signs, and 69 doesn't go anywhere near Elizabethtown, and never will. If they can't bring themselves to use Evansville on there because of the bridge, at least use Henderson.

Probably because -- and this is just a guess on my part -- the majority of long-distance traffic that exits I-24 at that location is going to E-town, not Henderson/Evansville/Indianapolis. My guess is that when the new bridge is completed, it will be time for new signage to be installed. I'd recommend a dual destination of E-town and either Henderson or Evansville.

I am not sure on the traffic count. There are a lot of people from Evansville-Henderson-Owensboro that go to the lake area. The WK gets pretty sparse between Greenville and E-town.

Even if that is the case, it still doesn't make sense, or is consistent. As Life in Paradise pointed out, the control city coming out of Henderson on I-69 is Fulton. This is the old Pennyrile segment, and I am certain most traffic is still going south at the 69-WK-Pennyrile junction than following I-69. If E-town is used, then certainly Hopkinsville should be used for the southbound segment from Henderson. Not only is more traffic headed south, Hopkinsville is actually closer to 69 than E-town. There isn't any signs or mileage for Hopkinsville until you reach the split. In short, if KY is using Fulton instead of Hopkinsville, then they should use Henderson instead of E-town. I agree with Life though that Fulton is a pathetic control city, and Memphis-Evansville should be the ones used.

hbelkins

Quote from: Life in Paradise on May 29, 2018, 11:16:37 AM
I still get worked up about the fact that southbound I-69 has Fulton all over the place as a control city and mileage.  Just like I-69 north of Evansville.  The road is heading to Indianapolis, whether or not the freeway is done.  It's four lane all the way.  Going south it's heading to Memphis, four lane all the way whether it's I-69 or US-51.  Most people traveling through have no idea what Fulton, KY or South Fulton, TN is or where it is, but they have a better idea where Memphis is.

Not only that, but I'll bet that most traffic entering the former Pennyrile Parkway in the Madisonville area is probably headed for either Hopkinsville or Paducah.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Life in Paradise

Quote from: hbelkins on May 29, 2018, 01:20:11 PM
Quote from: Life in Paradise on May 29, 2018, 11:16:37 AM
I still get worked up about the fact that southbound I-69 has Fulton all over the place as a control city and mileage.  Just like I-69 north of Evansville.  The road is heading to Indianapolis, whether or not the freeway is done.  It's four lane all the way.  Going south it's heading to Memphis, four lane all the way whether it's I-69 or US-51.  Most people traveling through have no idea what Fulton, KY or South Fulton, TN is or where it is, but they have a better idea where Memphis is.

Not only that, but I'll bet that most traffic entering the former Pennyrile Parkway in the Madisonville area is probably headed for either Hopkinsville or Paducah.
Good point.  When the official I-169 signs go up on what is now the South Pennyrile, they should list at least Hopkinsville as a control city.  They could do Clarksville or Nashville as well.  I-69 West should also have Paducah on it from that intersection.

roadman65

Speaking of Fulton, I had to research it (meaning look it up on a map) as when I did a virtual GSV tour I saw it there and it looked strange as Pacucah should really be used and if you say Fulton is used all the way from Henderson than Hopkinsville is a better selection especially that the south end of the former Parkway is now I-169.

Fort Criswell used on I-77 by NCDOT is another one.  Sure its where I-77 meets I-81, but Charleston, WV is a better and more feasible city to be used.

Then there is the Los Angeles used by both Arizona and Nevada both for I-40 and I-15 because of defunct Route 66 and US 91 originally went there before the interstates which now have their traffic. Arizona DOT sent me  a letter years ago when I questioned them about signs in Flagstaff citing LA and not Kingman, and it was read back to me that its copying old US 66 that did go to Los Angeles. 

So if these two states can use cities not on the signed interstates, why can't a state like Kentucky do so too?  They do already for I-69 North from I-24 using E- Town which there it should be two cities as both Henderson (or Evansville) and E-Town being its actually two through routes now (even though the WP name is retired where I-69 is concurrent).
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe



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