Vermont

[froggie]

When I emailed the VTrans signing head a year or so ago, they were intending at the time to petition FHWA to delay a conversion to milepost-based exit numbering.  Can't imagine a whole lot has changed since then.

[Rothman]

Heh.  Last time I inquired at NYSDOT, they sent me that really old "study" they did where they said they tried it out on I-890 and I-895 and it didn't work.  I might still have that old document somewhere.

[cl94]

Heh.  Last time I inquired at NYSDOT, they sent me that really old "study" they did where they said they tried it out on I-890 and I-895 and it didn't work.  I might still have that old document somewhere.

New York is kinda switching over. At least I-99 and I-781 aren't sequential. I-99/US 15 was renumbered from sequential. It's gonna happen at some point. Massachusetts is supposedly changing over and Connecticut is in the process of doing so. It won't be long at all until all bordering states/provinces have mile/km numbering. Face it- things would actually be easier if I-87 got new numbers just because there would no longer be 3 each of exits 1, 2, and 4-14.

[vdeane]

Heh.  Last time I inquired at NYSDOT, they sent me that really old "study" they did where they said they tried it out on I-890 and I-895 and it didn't work.  I might still have that old document somewhere.

That's what happens when you study distance-based numbering on the roads that show the least benefit.  I fully suspect that had I-88 been completed a decade earlier and received its exit numbers during the study that NY would have switched.

[Rothman]

Heh.  Last time I inquired at NYSDOT, they sent me that really old "study" they did where they said they tried it out on I-890 and I-895 and it didn't work.  I might still have that old document somewhere.

New York is kinda switching over. At least I-99 and I-781 aren't sequential. I-99/US 15 was renumbered from sequential. It's gonna happen at some point. Massachusetts is supposedly changing over and Connecticut is in the process of doing so. It won't be long at all until all bordering states/provinces have mile/km numbering. Face it- things would actually be easier if I-87 got new numbers just because there would no longer be 3 each of exits 1, 2, and 4-14.

You would be very surprised by the insurmountable amount of resistance at NYSDOT to mileage-based numbering.  Every time it is brought up, including even being suggested for inclusion in NYSDOT's capital program update instructions, the old criticisms are trotted out:

--Business would have to update their advertising
--What's the point of this in NYC?
--Costs too much when we're struggling to maintain the infrastructure that we have -- we have more important things to do with the little money that we have.
--A relatively new one being heard:  GPS market penetration is sufficient to make the exit numbering switch unnecessary.



I remember one discussion where one person actually protested: "But what do you do about people who just go by the old exit numbers?"  Someone else explained using "OLD EXIT XX" signs.  This actually started a discussion that ended with the senior manager in the meeting suggesting using "NEW EXIT XX" signs.  I KID YOU NOT.

[amroad17]

I can see the point about changing to milepost-based exits in NYC.  Should leave exit numbers the way they are instead of having an Exit 14A-B-C-D-E-F-G for example.

[AMLNet49]

I can see the point about changing to milepost-based exits in NYC.  Should leave exit numbers the way they are instead of having an Exit 14A-B-C-D-E-F-G for example.

Exactly, the only road with mile-based numbers in the city (I-95) is a bit of alphabet soup going 1ABC, 2AB, 3, 4AB, 5AB, 6ABC, 7ABC, 8ABC. Other roads in the city would likely be worse.

[Rothman]

I can see the point about changing to milepost-based exits in NYC.  Should leave exit numbers the way they are instead of having an Exit 14A-B-C-D-E-F-G for example.

Exactly, the only road with mile-based numbers in the city (I-95) is a bit of alphabet soup going 1ABC, 2AB, 3, 4AB, 5AB, 6ABC, 7ABC, 8ABC. Other roads in the city would likely be worse.

I just don't see it as that big of a problem.  At least 40 states use mileage-based exit numbers.  Bring 'em here, too.  I'm tired of keeping track of how far I have to go between exits.

[cl94]

Thing is that most highways in New York City would be fine. No worse than what we have in Kansas City, Chicago, Columbus, etc. In some cases, pairs of partial exits that should share a number get one for each partial exit. Not as much alphabet soup as you'd think, especially if they take a little liberty in assigning numbers.

[amroad17]

I would not see a problem with milepost-based exit numbers in New York State or any New England states.  I am not really a huge fan of seeing EXIT 2Y (Kansas City) or EXIT 51I (Chicago).  There would probably be some places along the BQE or Gowanas that would have Exit XXG or EXIT XXH signed. 

As far as Vermont, I believe I-89 and I-91 should have milepost-based exits.  Many of them are fairly far apart and the DOT would save a bit of money not erecting NEXT EXIT XX MILES signs.

[Rothman]

One thing though:  Although I see a problem when you may have multiple ramps in a mile on an urban freeway, I do prefer exit numbers that use N, S, E, W rather than A, B, C. 

[Alps]

I would not see a problem with milepost-based exit numbers in New York State or any New England states.  I am not really a huge fan of seeing EXIT 2Y (Kansas City) or EXIT 51I (Chicago).  There would probably be some places along the BQE or Gowanas that would have Exit XXG or EXIT XXH signed. 

As far as Vermont, I believe I-89 and I-91 should have milepost-based exits.  Many of them are fairly far apart and the DOT would save a bit of money not erecting NEXT EXIT XX MILES signs.

NYC doesn't really have any roads with numbered exits that close together. On the Henry Hudson or FDR you might get 1/2 mile spacing - I would be surprised to see more than a D suffix at any point. Even I-95 only made it up to 1D with mile-based numbering.

[cl94]

I would not see a problem with milepost-based exit numbers in New York State or any New England states.  I am not really a huge fan of seeing EXIT 2Y (Kansas City) or EXIT 51I (Chicago).  There would probably be some places along the BQE or Gowanas that would have Exit XXG or EXIT XXH signed. 

As far as Vermont, I believe I-89 and I-91 should have milepost-based exits.  Many of them are fairly far apart and the DOT would save a bit of money not erecting NEXT EXIT XX MILES signs.

NYC doesn't really have any roads with numbered exits that close together. On the Henry Hudson or FDR you might get 1/2 mile spacing - I would be surprised to see more than a D suffix at any point. Even I-95 only made it up to 1D with mile-based numbering.

I ran through everything and you wouldn't even have many C exits. On many of the roads, fiddle around with the numbering a tiny bit and you'd have no suffix for some exits. One thing NYC did was build most of its expressways along existing roads, so frontage roads are used extensively to cut down on the amount of exits/entrances. I-278 would have 1 D (on Staten Island, of all places). Grand Central Parkway could eliminate the need for a D by rounding down or combining the I-295 exit into a single designation/suffix. Hell, the LIE already has A-E suffixxes at Exit 22, so many suffixes certainly wouldn't be a new thing for NYSDOT.

[shadyjay]

Back to VT...

I traveled VT 279 from VT 9 to US 7 for the first time today.  Here are some shots of the bypass, and of US 7 north to Rutland...

https://picasaweb.google.com/108118189767835080687/VT279US7

Next weekend I plan on traveling I-91 South again from Rockingham to the state line so I should have new sign pics in that area by next Monday or Tuesday.

[froggie]

http://www.wcax.com/story/29537538/williston-skunk-receives-extra-stripe-from-road-crew

If I was a road crewman, I wouldn't want to pick up a skunk (dead or otherwise) either...

[froggie]

As part of a repaving project, a number of old US route signs in St. Johnsbury are in the process of being replaced.  Some of the shields being replaced used Series E font for the numerals.

I'm not sure of the status of the state-name I-91 trailblazers along ALT US 5 yet...my guess is that they'll also be replaced.

On a related note, and since I forgot to mention it here earlier (I did on the Northeast Roads group on Facebook), after 20 years of existence, ALT VT 122 is now finally signed in Lyndonville.  It was created in 1995 when VT 122 was rerouted to its current ending at US 5/VT 114, but never signed until now.

[shadyjay]

I-91 sign replacement project, Mass state line to Rockingham UPDATE:

Most new signs are up... exceptions are a couple signs on either side of the West River Bridge replacement in Brattleboro.  In each direction, a sign for the various exits in Brattleboro before Exit 3-SB and before Exit 1-NB that reads Canal St Exit 1/ Downtown Exit 2/ Putney Road/Exit 3.  Other changes include a single VT 9 shield for Exit 2 (no direction, but supplemental signage NB says VT 9 East use Exit 3), and Exit 1 now reads "US 5 to VT 142 / Brattleboro / Guilford".  New "Welcome To Vermont" sign is unusually small. 

Pics will be posted either Sunday night or Monday.

[KEVIN_224]

Is the VT welcome sign the standard one? Like the smaller green and white one on VT Route 9 West in Brattleboro, coming in from Chesterfield, NH? (Crossing the Connecticut River bridge)

[shadyjay]

Yes it is.   I'll get a pic of it tomorrow on my way home. 

[shadyjay]

So all the new sign shots are in my album located here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/108118189767835080687/I91SignReplacementInVT

Here's a shot of the new state line sign... WAYYYYY smaller than the one it replaced:




And a shot of the "Brattleboro Exits" sign:



And for those curious, the Exit 2 overheads on VT 9 which have both I-91 shields and text for US 5 and VT 9 are still up.

[vdeane]

I guess we can say goodbye to the idea of Vermont having real welcome signs.  The I-91 sign was the only one that wasn't incredibly small:

[KEVIN_224]

Tooling around Brattleboro, VT today, I snapped these few pictures:

Seen halfway between I-91 Exit 1 and the south end of downtown.


It's pure comedy as to how short VT Route 119 really is! Barely 1/3 of a mile... if that!


New Hampshire had all of their signs lined up in a neat little row. This was on the Hinsdale, NH side of the Connecticut River.


Vermont's little reference marker, which made me think of New York right away.


I think the rotary/shields sign is 5 years old or so.


So close that you can see the sheeting they used. 


No, it's not I-91 North in Guilford...it's VT Route 9 West in Brattleboro, just after the Connecticut River Bridge.


The northern side of the Seabees Memorial Bridge, which carries VT/NH Route 9 over the Connecticut River.

[KEVIN_224]

More Brattleboro? OK! Why not?

I noticed this survey marker embedded into the sidewalk along extremely short VT Route 119. The marker couldn't have been more than 10 feet from the New Hampshire state line.


I still like these state route markers better than the kind they had in the past.


Yes, a Vermont Avenue in Vermont. Anyways, I notice the "State Highway Begins" sign here. I assume it's quietly marking the boundary of the VILLAGE of Brattleboro? This shot is on US Route 5 looking north.


I've never seen this font on a Connecticut road sign. Yes, I'm aware there's a Springfield, VT along I-91, hence the use of "MA" on the top sign.


I-91 would never look this quiet 2 hours to the south in Hartford! This is where US Route 5 passes over I-91 in the far north end of Brattleboro. The distance sign stated 59 miles to White River Junction. The bridge is at roughly Mile 12.3 of I-91 itself.


My only problem with this type of town line sign is how it's parallel to the road. That might be a bad thing during a blizzard or a driving rain storm. I also see how the reference marker resets, too.

[shadyjay]

The "state highway ends/begins" signs refer to the point where the road maintenance switches between state and town control.  I've been behind a state plow truck and they will pick their blades up immediately upon reaching the "state highway ends" sign.  Most numbered routes within Brattleboro, Burlington, Rutland, St Albans, St Johnsbury, etc, are town control (except the interstates of course).  Of course, there are some exceptions.

And then there are a handful of routes in the state that are numbered but yet are maintained by the towns.  That's why new "old" shields are used (the basic white circle/oval), such as Route 132 (I-89 Exit 2), Route 140 west of Wallingford, and Route 121 from Bellows Falls, westward. 

[froggie]

I noticed this survey marker embedded into the sidewalk along extremely short VT Route 119. The marker couldn't have been more than 10 feet from the New Hampshire state line.

How far were you from the low-water mark on the Vermont side of the river?  That by definition is where the state line is.

My only problem with this type of town line sign is how it's parallel to the road. That might be a bad thing during a blizzard or a driving rain storm. I also see how the reference marker resets, too.

Yes, reference marker mileage resets at town lines.  As for the town line signs, drivers are not the intended audience, believe it or not.

The "state highway ends/begins" signs refer to the point where the road maintenance switches between state and town control.  I've been behind a state plow truck and they will pick their blades up immediately upon reaching the "state highway ends" sign.  Most numbered routes within Brattleboro, Burlington, Rutland, St Albans, St Johnsbury, etc, are town control (except the interstates of course).  Of course, there are some exceptions.

The reality is somewhat murkier.  What shadyjay describes are, for the most part, officially designated as Class 1 Town Highways.  They are considered the extensions of state highways through cities and villages, and VTrans actually retains some responsibility along them, mostly related to major projects, and road repair, and in most cases signage.  The towns are responsible for day-to-day maintenance (hence the snowplow observation).