Abandoned runways turned into roads

[HighwayStar]

I am well aware of the turbulence excuse, but it makes no sense when you consider they flew in and out of there for decades. It was definitely more of a NIMBY cause.

Just because the airport can function doesn't mean it's running at peak efficiency or peak safety. I bet if you told a plane full of passengers that they were flying into an objectively more dangerous airport when a safer one was nearby, they wouldn't be too happy about it...

That is because the average person does not understand how statistics work. p = 0.00001 is twice p = 0.000005 but no rational person would worry about doing either as they are both safe in the grand scope of things. The old airport was perfectly safe, it just irritated the CAVE people.

[Scott5114]

"I am well aware of the reasons a decision was made, but I'm going to choose to disregard them because I like the reasons I made up in my head better."

[HighwayStar]

"I am well aware of the reasons a decision was made, but I'm going to choose to disregard them because I like the reasons I made up in my head better."

pretext
a pretended reason for doing something that is used to hide the real reason

[kphoger]

DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.

[formulanone]

DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.

I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.

If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).

[JayhawkCO]

DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.

I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.

If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).

Back in the day, there used to be some subsidies to fly out of COS so we did it a couple of times because it was way cheaper. I've never noticed a price difference anymore, just less selection of times. I'm about 25 minutes to DIA and probably with good traffic, 70 minutes to COS, so wouldn't likely work for me. But, for those in Douglas County (Highlands Ranch, Lone Tree, Castle Rock, etc.), I can see it making sense from time to time.

[FrCorySticha]

DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.

I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.

If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).

This is the important part. Stapleton was an old, outdated, functionally restricted airport that needed to be completely overhauled or replaced. The terminal was a sprawling mess (that I had the misfortune to run the entire length of due to a late flight) that had been expanded to its limits. I can't point to any studies, but I'm sure it would have been far more expensive to fix Stapleton than just buy a lot of cheaper land on the edge of the city to start over.

DIA has its issues, including chronic baggage handling problems when it first opened, but was a dramatic improvement over Stapleton. It does a great job handling both the needs of the city and the western US hub of United in a way Stapleton never could.

[Rothman]

DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.

I just flew in and out of there.  It has aged very quickly.  I didn't mind it in years past, but this time the layout and the wandering required to get around irked me more.

[kphoger]

I actually haven't flown through Denver since 2006.  But, back then at least, it seemed to me like what O'Hare wished it could be.

[JayhawkCO]

DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.

I just flew in and out of there.  It has aged very quickly.  I didn't mind it in years past, but this time the layout and the wandering required to get around irked me more.

What wandering? There's a train line connecting the main terminal to terminals A, B, and C. The train runs right down the center of those terminals, so once you get off, you walk in a straight line to your gate (or a slight pigtail at the end of Terminal B where the smaller United flights leave from).

Lots of other airports have signs that lead in multiple directions to get to different concourses/terminals, some of which take a lot longer than others. DIA doesn't have anything close to that since there's only one way to get between any two (other than the walkway from the main terminal to A).

[HighwayStar]

DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.

I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.

If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).

This is the important part. Stapleton was an old, outdated, functionally restricted airport that needed to be completely overhauled or replaced. The terminal was a sprawling mess (that I had the misfortune to run the entire length of due to a late flight) that had been expanded to its limits. I can't point to any studies, but I'm sure it would have been far more expensive to fix Stapleton than just buy a lot of cheaper land on the edge of the city to start over.

DIA has its issues, including chronic baggage handling problems when it first opened, but was a dramatic improvement over Stapleton. It does a great job handling both the needs of the city and the western US hub of United in a way Stapleton never could.

Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it. I suspect they learned their lesson with Love Field so that when it came time for Denver they decided to destroy it beyond all possible use so that everyone would have to use the new one.

[JayhawkCO]

DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.

I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.

If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).

This is the important part. Stapleton was an old, outdated, functionally restricted airport that needed to be completely overhauled or replaced. The terminal was a sprawling mess (that I had the misfortune to run the entire length of due to a late flight) that had been expanded to its limits. I can't point to any studies, but I'm sure it would have been far more expensive to fix Stapleton than just buy a lot of cheaper land on the edge of the city to start over.

DIA has its issues, including chronic baggage handling problems when it first opened, but was a dramatic improvement over Stapleton. It does a great job handling both the needs of the city and the western US hub of United in a way Stapleton never could.

Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it. I suspect they learned their lesson with Love Field so that when it came time for Denver they decided to destroy it beyond all possible use so that everyone would have to use the new one.

Especially once they opened the train line from downtown to DIA, it's way less of a PITA for most people in the metro. Not to mention the toll roads that can help escape traffic if necessary. Stapleton was gross; I clearly remember sticky carpets. The fact that Denver is the 3rd busiest airport in the world at the moment could have never happened if it was still in Central Park.

[kphoger]

Going to Stapleton, it was like, there's a gas station, there's a crack house, there's the airport, there's a porn store, oh wait! turn around! we missed the airport!

[FrCorySticha]

DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.

I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.

If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).

This is the important part. Stapleton was an old, outdated, functionally restricted airport that needed to be completely overhauled or replaced. The terminal was a sprawling mess (that I had the misfortune to run the entire length of due to a late flight) that had been expanded to its limits. I can't point to any studies, but I'm sure it would have been far more expensive to fix Stapleton than just buy a lot of cheaper land on the edge of the city to start over.

DIA has its issues, including chronic baggage handling problems when it first opened, but was a dramatic improvement over Stapleton. It does a great job handling both the needs of the city and the western US hub of United in a way Stapleton never could.

Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it. I suspect they learned their lesson with Love Field so that when it came time for Denver they decided to destroy it beyond all possible use so that everyone would have to use the new one.

Did you ever actually fly into and through Stapleton and DIA, or are you just talking out of your ignorance and looking at maps? I've flown into and through both, and DIA is a massive improvement that was very much needed.

[abefroman329]

Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.

No one put "draconian restrictions" on Midway, and yet you still can't get to every destination in the world from there, because the runways are too short to accommodate planes bigger than a 757.

This fantasy world you've created for yourself where literally everything is a conspiracy is fascinating.

[formulanone]

a² + b² = dzlsabe

[HighwayStar]

DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.

I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.

If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).

This is the important part. Stapleton was an old, outdated, functionally restricted airport that needed to be completely overhauled or replaced. The terminal was a sprawling mess (that I had the misfortune to run the entire length of due to a late flight) that had been expanded to its limits. I can't point to any studies, but I'm sure it would have been far more expensive to fix Stapleton than just buy a lot of cheaper land on the edge of the city to start over.

DIA has its issues, including chronic baggage handling problems when it first opened, but was a dramatic improvement over Stapleton. It does a great job handling both the needs of the city and the western US hub of United in a way Stapleton never could.

Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it. I suspect they learned their lesson with Love Field so that when it came time for Denver they decided to destroy it beyond all possible use so that everyone would have to use the new one.

Did you ever actually fly into and through Stapleton and DIA, or are you just talking out of your ignorance and looking at maps? I've flown into and through both, and DIA is a massive improvement that was very much needed.

I care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.

[HighwayStar]

Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.

No one put "draconian restrictions" on Midway, and yet you still can't get to every destination in the world from there, because the runways are too short to accommodate planes bigger than a 757.

This fantasy world you've created for yourself where literally everything is a conspiracy is fascinating.

Red Herring. Midway is not under discussion here, and the reasons for limitations at that airport are not the same as those that were used to limit Love Field. Love Field did not support flights due to regulations, go read about the Wright Amendment, its not a "conspiracy theory" it happened.

[JayhawkCO]

I care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.

But without expansion, which would not have been possible at Stapleton, you probably would have had to take another connection to get here, putting you much farther away temporally.

[abefroman329]

Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.

No one put "draconian restrictions" on Midway, and yet you still can't get to every destination in the world from there, because the runways are too short to accommodate planes bigger than a 757.

This fantasy world you've created for yourself where literally everything is a conspiracy is fascinating.

Red Herring. Midway is not under discussion here, and the reasons for limitations at that airport are not the same as those that were used to limit Love Field. Love Field did not support flights due to regulations, go read about the Wright Amendment, its not a "conspiracy theory" it happened.

I'm familiar with the Wright Amendment, thanks. 

[HighwayStar]

I care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.

But without expansion, which would not have been possible at Stapleton, you probably would have had to take another connection to get here, putting you much farther away temporally.

Not inherently. You can do both, you can build a new airport AND keep the original one (ie the DFW & Love Field situation). Then the market can decide which flights need to go to each, with those who value the premium of convenience being able to choose that if they wish.

[I-55]

Talladega Superspeedway was built on top of an old air force base

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5662083,-86.0669803,1819m/data=!3m1!1e3

[JayhawkCO]

I care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.

But without expansion, which would not have been possible at Stapleton, you probably would have had to take another connection to get here, putting you much farther away temporally.

Not inherently. You can do both, you can build a new airport AND keep the original one (ie the DFW & Love Field situation). Then the market can decide which flights need to go to each, with those who value the premium of convenience being able to choose that if they wish.

I guarantee refurbishment costs for Stapleton, not to mention lack of ability for larger jets would make that untenable and unprofitable. The property tax they get from the Central Park neighborhood alone would outweigh any financial benefit.

[HighwayStar]

I care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.

But without expansion, which would not have been possible at Stapleton, you probably would have had to take another connection to get here, putting you much farther away temporally.

Not inherently. You can do both, you can build a new airport AND keep the original one (ie the DFW & Love Field situation). Then the market can decide which flights need to go to each, with those who value the premium of convenience being able to choose that if they wish.

I guarantee refurbishment costs for Stapleton, not to mention lack of ability for larger jets would make that untenable and unprofitable. The property tax they get from the Central Park neighborhood alone would outweigh any financial benefit.

I find that dubious, and also keep in mind the temporal effect, Love Field was not heavily used for the first couple decades after DFW came in but eventually became very valuable.
Also the one time value of the property being sold off to other developers is bad accounting and is the type of BS that gets pulled all the time with transportation projects. The perpetual value to the public of improved transportation is worth more than the real estate.

[JayhawkCO]

I care about distance to my final destination, I don't really care how fancy the airport is. Not to mention you can remodel all of that anyway so there is no inherency to whatever airport you flew in or out of remaining the same.

But without expansion, which would not have been possible at Stapleton, you probably would have had to take another connection to get here, putting you much farther away temporally.

Not inherently. You can do both, you can build a new airport AND keep the original one (ie the DFW & Love Field situation). Then the market can decide which flights need to go to each, with those who value the premium of convenience being able to choose that if they wish.

I guarantee refurbishment costs for Stapleton, not to mention lack of ability for larger jets would make that untenable and unprofitable. The property tax they get from the Central Park neighborhood alone would outweigh any financial benefit.

I find that dubious, and also keep in mind the temporal effect, Love Field was not heavily used for the first couple decades after DFW came in but eventually became very valuable.
Also the one time value of the property being sold off to other developers is bad accounting and is the type of BS that gets pulled all the time with transportation projects. The perpetual value to the public of improved transportation is worth more than the real estate.

"20 minutes more convenient for HighwayStar" is different than millions of dollars of tax revenue.

From various articles about Stapleton:





Clearly it was just NIMBYism.