Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'

[jamess]

That seems like a case of too much money and finding new ways to spend it

[tradephoric]

The second most crash prone intersection in the region of Waterloo was the signalized intersection at Ottawa Street and Homer Watson.  It had 178 crashes over the past 5 years.  Well the city just finished converting the signalized intersection to a triple lane roundabout similar to the roundabout at Block Line Road.  The result has been 34 crashes in 29 days including 4 injury crashes.   A cyclist was struck by a minivan while she was cycling through the roundabout and is interviewed in the report below:

Ottawa/Homer Watson roundabout sees 34 collisions in 29 days
http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-homer-watson-roundabout-sees-34-collisions-in-29-days-1.3671232

The Region of Waterloo released its 2018 Collision Report and crash data is out for the Ottawa/Homer Watson roundabout.  There was 181 total crashes and 18 injury crashes at the triple-lane roundabout in 2018.  The five years before Ottawa/Homer Watson was converted to a roundabout, the traffic signal averaged just 35.6 total crashes and 10.4 injury crashes. 

2018 Collision Report (Region of Waterloo)
https://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/living-here/resources/Roads-and-Traffic/Collision-Reporting/2018-Annual-Collision-Report.pdf

An intersection having 18 crashes per year is significant... much less 18 injury crashes.  But for an intersection to experience 181 total crashes, there is something very wrong here.  This is the roundabout in question: https://www.google.com/maps?ll=43.42677,-80.48231&z=19&t=h

[tradephoric]

A list of problematic roundabouts in Carmel are highlighted in this Indy Star video.  It highlights the fact that the most crash prone intersection in Hamilton County in 2018 was the roundabout at 116th Street and Pennsylvania Street.  It also lists several intersections in Carmel that saw dramatic increases in crashes once they were converted to roundabouts. 

Have roundabouts made Carmel drivers safer? The data suggests 'no'
https://www.indystar.com/videos/news/local/hamilton-county/2019/12/01/have-roundabouts-made-carmel-drivers-safer-data-suggests-no/4300772002/

[tradephoric]

A high number of property-damage crashes continue to plague Lakeville's two-lane roundabout four years after its introduction
https://www.hometownsource.com/sun_thisweek/community/lakeville/at-lakeville-s-two-lane-roundabout-accidents-will-happen/article_ae025306-11f3-11ea-9c87-67acf8ebd5b3.html

-In 2014, the year before County Road 50 and County Road 60 was converted to a roundabout, the intersection experienced 10 crashes (none of them involving injury).

-A 2x2 roundabout was constructed in 2015.

-In 2018 there was 127 crashes including 4 injury crashes at the roundabout.  That equates to a crash rate of 8.65 MEV (or about 20x higher than the 0.44 crash rate they predicted when analyzing the roundabout design alternative back in 2011).


https://www.co.dakota.mn.us/Transportation/TransportationStudies/Documents/CR50-CR60FullReport.pdf

[tradephoric]

Glastonbury roundabouts significantly reducing collisions after two years in operation
https://www.courant.com/community/glastonbury/hc-news-glastonbury-roundabouts-success-20191206-ydkwkd22gfgm7o6bznwfm2awlq-story.html

Two single-lane roundabouts were put in along Hebron Avenue a few years ago and now they are touting the crash reductions.  Averages crashes dropped from 5 to 3.5 and from 10 to 4.  It's great that these single-lane roundabouts are performing well, but now they will probably use these crash results to justify building some complex 3x2 roundabout next to a freeway thinking the same crash reductions will be seen.  But instead of 10 crashes dropping to 4, I'll be here to cite the fact that the complex roundabout went from 10 crashes before the roundabout to 127 after the roundabout (ie. County Road 50 and County Road 60 roundabout in Minnesota).  Let's hope city leaders don't get cocky just because their simple single-lane roundabouts are performing well. 

[cjw2001]

Success is not measured simply in crash rates.   Traffic throughput is an important factor.   In the age before roundabouts in Carmel there was terrible congestion during rush hours, now traffic flows smoothly during all but the most extreme congestion.   A few minor fender benders is a small price to pay for the improved traffic flow, better gas mileage and reduced travel times.

[kalvado]

Success is not measured simply in crash rates.   Traffic throughput is an important factor.   In the age before roundabouts in Carmel there was terrible congestion during rush hours, now traffic flows smoothly during all but the most extreme congestion.   A few minor fender benders is a small price to pay for the improved traffic flow, better gas mileage and reduced travel times.

Yep, especially when roundabouts are build with some extra lanes.
THroughput of roundabout is less than of traffic light

[tradephoric]

Success is not measured simply in crash rates.   Traffic throughput is an important factor.   In the age before roundabouts in Carmel there was terrible congestion during rush hours, now traffic flows smoothly during all but the most extreme congestion.

In the midst of Carmel's roundabout blitz, two major routes in the city were converted from surface streets to grade separated freeways (Meridian St & Keystone Pkwy).  Also, several intersections in Carmel were nothing more than intersecting two-lane roads with no turn lanes before the roundabouts were built.   Roadways were widened and freeways were added in Carmel yet you only want to credit roundabouts for the improved traffic flow in the city.  Here are some before/after roundabout shots in Carmel:

A few minor fender benders is a small price to pay for the improved traffic flow, better gas mileage and reduced travel times.

How do you know there are only a "˜few' minor fender benders at the Carmel roundabouts?  For years the Carmel Police Department would map out the top 20 crash intersections in the city in their annual report but that all changed in the 2014 report when the crash map was omitted.  By 2014 Carmel had complex 2x2 roundabouts and it was becoming increasingly apparent that many of these had crash problems.  Instead of being transparent and continuing to list these high crash roundabouts in their annual report, they decided to omit the high crash location map entirely.  Wouldn't surprise me if that directive came from the Mayor's office as Brainard is a total roundabout ideologue and wouldn't want to highlight data that is critical to roundabouts.

[tradephoric]

According to Delray Beach Fire Rescue, an elderly man trying to go around a roundabout lost control and plowed through a wall at Ebenezer Wesleyan Methodist Church, located at 201 SW 6th Avenue.

Driver loses control, crashes into Delray Beach church, officials say

[tradephoric]

More drama at The Villages roundabouts in Florida.  Patrick Henry O'Brien Jr. was knocked from his motorcycle after hitting the curb inside the Morse Boulevard at Deskin Lane roundabout.  He was transported to Ocala Regional Medical Center and is being treated in the ICU.

Motorcyclist lands in ICU after crash in roundabout in The Villages

[Rothman]

Silly drivers.

[kalvado]

Silly drivers.

Silly drivers, idiotic engineers, stupid legislators, crazy world....

[DaBigE]

Why the US Hates Roundabouts

Silly drivers.

Silly drivers, idiotic engineers poor design, stupid legislators, crazy world....

FIFY

[ET21]

Why the US Hates Roundabouts

Silly drivers.

Silly drivers, idiotic engineers poor design, stupid legislators, crazy world....

FIFY

Pretty much

[kalvado]

Why the US Hates Roundabouts

Silly drivers.

Silly drivers, idiotic engineers poor design, stupid legislators, crazy world....

FIFY

Pretty much

So you consider Chicago area highway network is well designed?

[tradephoric]

They may not be idiotic engineers, maybe they are just insane.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.  When the Region of Waterloo found out that the Homer Watson and Block Line roundabout had experienced 435 crashes over a 5-year period (257 more crashes than the next closest intersection in the region) and that the roundabout was deemed the most dangerous intersection in the region with the highest average excess social cost of $271,780, what did they do?  They doubled down.  They built an even more complex roundabout just a mile up the road at Homer Watson and Ottawa Street.  Who in their right mind thought it was a good idea to build this thing?  It's not like it couldn't have been foreseen...

It's somewhat surprising they are going ahead with building a massive 3x2 roundabout at Ottawa Street & Homer Watson Blvd after all the issues with the Homer Watson Blvd & Block Road roundabout.  Based on your link, Ottawa Street & Homer Watson Blvd is the most crash prone intersection in the entire region.  Time will tell if the crash problem gets better or worse after the roundabout is completed. 

Well time has been told.  According to the Region of Waterloo annual crash reports, the Homer Watson and Ottawa Street intersection experienced 178 crashes in the 5 years before the roundabout was constructed (and it averaged 10.8 injury crashes/year).  In the first full year of operations, the roundabout has seen 181 crashes including 18 injury crashes.  So the roundabout is experiencing more crashes in one year that the previous signalized intersection experienced in 5 years.  Sounds insane to me, and you can't really tout the safety of the roundabout when the average number of injury crashes has nearly doubled.  Again, insanity.  Hope the good people of Waterloo are enjoying their new roundabout, you got yourself a doozy.

[tradephoric]

^Ottawa Street and Homer Watson was the most crash prone intersection in the entire region BEFORE the roundabout was constructed (aside from the Homer Watson & Block Line roundabout mentioned above with 435 total collisions over a 5 year period).  It's amazing that a roundabout being built can make the most crash prone intersection in the region 5X worse.

[ET21]

Why the US Hates Roundabouts

Silly drivers.

Silly drivers, idiotic engineers poor design, stupid legislators, crazy world....

FIFY

Pretty much

So you consider Chicago area highway network is well designed?

Not sure what that has to do with "Crash prone modern roundabouts"

[tradephoric]

Why the US Hates Roundabouts

There is no acknowledgement of the failures of complex multi-lane roundabouts in this video.  The Region of Waterloo (population 500k) replaced the most crash prone signalized intersection with a roundabout and the result is crashes have quintupled... not doubled, not tripled, not quadrupled, but quintupled!  If you believe everything this video is saying then you ignore the failures that are taking place at these complex roundabouts.  Taking the most crash prone signalized intersection in your region and making it 5x more crash prone doesn't sound like a winning strategy.  Region of Waterloo is definitely not winning with this roundabout.   

[kalvado]

Why the US Hates Roundabouts

Silly drivers.

Silly drivers, idiotic engineers poor design, stupid legislators, crazy world....

FIFY

Pretty much

So you consider Chicago area highway network is well designed?

Not sure what that has to do with "Crash prone modern roundabouts"

If you think engineering is good, it should be good across the board, not in a single tiny subset. Or, alternatively, if you're not happy with bigger picture what makes you think that an isolated problem type is being  solved properly?

[ET21]

Why the US Hates Roundabouts

Silly drivers.

Silly drivers, idiotic engineers poor design, stupid legislators, crazy world....

FIFY

Pretty much

So you consider Chicago area highway network is well designed?

Not sure what that has to do with "Crash prone modern roundabouts"

If you think engineering is good, it should be good across the board, not in a single tiny subset. Or, alternatively, if you're not happy with bigger picture what makes you think that an isolated problem type is being  solved properly?

You can skew the argument that way all you want, that's another whole topic on its own. The problem is how is that being communicated to the general public.

You can engineer it to be 100% but the public doesn't know any better on how it works. Signs and painted arrows can only do so much. We're seeing a lot of user error with these so maybe we need to start teaching people how to properly use these intersections.

[DaBigE]

Why the US Hates Roundabouts

Silly drivers.

Silly drivers, idiotic engineers poor design, stupid legislators, crazy world....

FIFY

Pretty much

So you consider Chicago area highway network is well designed?

Not sure what that has to do with "Crash prone modern roundabouts"

If you think engineering is good, it should be good across the board, not in a single tiny subset. Or, alternatively, if you're not happy with bigger picture what makes you think that an isolated problem type is being  solved properly?

Keep living in that dream world. Your "good" is someone else's "crap" and vise versa. If you expect everything to be absolute, you're setting yourself up for a lifetime of disappointment. Do you also have the same perspective on bridges, given the high-profile failures in the last few years?

[kalvado]

You can skew the argument that way all you want, that's another whole topic on its own. The problem is how is that being communicated to the general public.

You can engineer it to be 100% but the public doesn't know any better on how it works. Signs and painted arrows can only do so much. We're seeing a lot of user error with these so maybe we need to start teaching people how to properly use these intersections.

You stopped short of blaming public, which may save your day.
But anyway, a bit of harsh reminders:
Unlike college, real life doesn't give credit for the effort. No partial credit for good intentions. No extra point for beauty until core function is there.
Real life performance is a figure of merit; and if public (who is paying engineer's paycheck via taxes) is not good enough too achieve that - there is no way for engineer to get different public; but public can easily hire a different engineer.
Engineer who doesn't understand these things is an idiot. This is not an insult, this is a medical fact.

[jeffandnicole]

You can engineer it to be 100% but the public doesn't know any better on how it works. Signs and painted arrows can only do so much. We're seeing a lot of user error with these so maybe we need to start teaching people how to properly use these intersections.

Short of mandating additional driver training every 5 or 10 years, there's not much that can be done to educate people beyond what's already out there.  You can't force people to look at websites and pamphlets.

When you have 40,000 people killed on the road each year, and roundabouts make up about a dozen of those deaths, there's a huge room for improvements on all types of roadways and intersections.

[DaBigE]

But anyway, a bit of harsh reminders:
Unlike college, real life doesn't give credit for the effort. No partial credit for good intentions. No extra point for beauty until core function is there.
Real life performance is a figure of merit; and if public (who is paying engineer's paycheck via taxes) is not good enough too achieve that - there is no way for engineer to get different public; but public can easily hire a different engineer.

The flaw in your argument is how you define the "core function". By that metric, there are a lot of signalized intersections and for that matter, freeways that fail to meet your standards. It is impossible to engineer the risk out of everything. Thinking/expecting perfection at every turn is insanity.