New York

[Buffaboy]

It reminds me of the select few people who want to turn the 190 (not necessarily 198) into a parkway throughout downtown Buffalo.

[Dougtone]

A glimpse into the possible future of I-787...

http://alloveralbany.com/archive/2015/06/25/four-takeaways-from-the-kickoff-for-the-study-abou

It won't go away unless there's a replacement, whether it be a tunnel, major widening/upgrades to existing facilities, and/or a new route on a new alignment. We're talking about a road with an AADT nearing 100,000 and much of that volume is concentrated into a couple of peak times. The MPO knows that. I'm convinced the main purpose of the study is to show the public what would happen if it came down.

I think that it was pointed out by someone the last time I brought up this topic was that the I-787 study should have taken place some 10-15 years ago. Based on how I-787 is used (along with I-81 in Syracuse and I-190 in Buffalo), I don't see any reason why the highways should be kiboshed for something more aesthetically pleasing or urban friendly, as these highways have a useful utility.

SCH-I545

[Rothman]

Heh.  I wonder when someone will actually ask what "fiscally constrained" actually means.  Means all sorts of things in all sorts of contexts (i.e., state first instance funding, STIP, NYSDOT regional planning targets, etc., etc.).  Then again, I suppose it does just come down to: "We ain't got no money!"

Anyway, anyone in the Capital District knows that all sorts of money has just been and is currently being invested in I-787 (those construction zones...).  This isn't past investment that Sam Zhou is talking about -- this is current and ongoing investment.

Some municipal officials suggested the tunnel idea (I don't think it was Albany Mayor Jennings at the time...might have been someone from up the river somewhere).  I can't believe that it's seriously being considered given that every conversation I've ever been in -- either at work or outside of work -- where the tunnel's brought up has resulted in nothing but hearty chuckles.

[xcellntbuy]

When I was little, the section of Albany along the Hudson River where Interstate 787 stands today was a huge area of rundown, gritty  buildings, both industrial and residential on Belgian block streets.

Along came urban renewal ideas in the 1960's.  One of these ideas was to clear away all the old buildings, build a grand plaza of State buildings, a new Dunn Memorial Bridge and an Interstate highway along the derelict riverfront.  Governor Nelson Rockefeller wanted to project the grandeur of New York as the economic and political powerhouse of the nation and Albany as its capital.  Money seemed like no object.  New York had plenty of money and people.

Now, New York is "the Cadillac of welfare," in the words of former Governor Mario Cuomo, and the best and brightest flee the welfare capital of America.  New York is a shadow of its former self.

Interstate 787 was a solution in the late 1960's and 1970's.  It is now reviled by certain groups.

[Pete from Boston]

When I was little, the section of Albany along the Hudson River where Interstate 787 stands today was a huge area of rundown, gritty  buildings, both industrial and residential on Belgian block streets.

Along came urban renewal ideas in the 1960's.  One of these ideas was to clear away all the old buildings, build a grand plaza of State buildings, a new Dunn Memorial Bridge and an Interstate highway along the derelict riverfront.  Governor Nelson Rockefeller wanted to project the grandeur of New York as the economic and political powerhouse of the nation and Albany as its capital.  Money seemed like no object.  New York had plenty of money and people.

Now, New York is "the Cadillac of welfare," in the words of former Governor Mario Cuomo, and the best and brightest flee the welfare capital of America.  New York is a shadow of its former self.

Interstate 787 was a solution in the late 1960's and 1970's.  It is now reviled by certain groups.

I have read a bit on Rockefeller and his projects in Albany.  It comes as no surprise that he was enamored with himself Brasilia, the modernist, sweeping-scale Brazilian capital built from the ground up.  To me his legacies there are more monuments than places.  Empire State Plaza feels like a place only Darth Vader could feel at home.

[vdeane]

I was at one of the presentations at the public workshop yesterday.  It seemed the main purpose of the presentations was to introduce the study and outline the limitations (funding, the nearby rail line, etc.).  I was at the 6:30 presentation, but I heard today that at the 4:30 presentation there were a lot of people clamoring for the boulevard and the long timeline for the project (the MPO is only talking about smaller solutions in the short term, so I-787 isn't going anywhere any time soon).  There were boards outline the current land uses, vacant properties, zoning, etc. on the corridor, as well as large tables with maps where people could place where they lived/worked or write down their thoughts/ideas.  A friend of mine spent time asking about the break in the Mohawk Hudson bike trail in Watervliet and Green Island as well as access to Corning Preserve (and the Amtrak station on the other side of the river).

[cl94]

The thing is that, no matter what happens to I-787, the tracks will still be in place, with the elevated routing blocking clear access to the water. For most of it, we're talking less than 100 feet that would be gained by taking out the expressway. And then there's this: traffic still has to get to downtown Albany. Could they do a "hybrid" option to remove the maze of ramps providing access to the surface streets and using a boulevard as a glorified C-D road?

[Buffaboy]

Why aren't there more of these types of stacked solutions like what's in St. Louis (I-64):



The eastbound and westbound lanes converge into this double-decker viaduct.

[Duke87]

Why aren't there more of these types of stacked solutions like what's in St. Louis (I-64):

The eastbound and westbound lanes converge into this double-decker viaduct.

Doing this reduces the horizontal footprint of the highway but increases the vertical footprint of it. Saves a smidge of land area but in terms of being an aesthetic barrier it's arguably worse. It's also more expensive to construct than a single decker viaduct.

If you have to build a whole new road because the old one is at the end of its life, a surface boulevard is the cheapest alternative. It is, after all, the difference between building a freeway and not building a freeway.


Of course you also will always have some very vocal groups who will clamor for these things, and make a point of showing up at public meetings to push as hard as they can for them. So I'm not surprised that happened. But I do find the specific suggestion about "boulevard this 0.2 mile section" hilarious because it clearly shows someone just wanted to say something about making a boulevard and didn't think it all the way through. Having what is otherwise a through freeway drop to grade and pass through maybe a few lights before continuing on as a freeway? You're basically recreating CT 9 in Middletown, except trying to also make it a road pedestrians want to cross. That'd be a disaster waiting to happen. If any of 787 is to be boulevarded, it'd have to be a longer stretch, so that traffic actually is forced to slow down.

[Dougtone]

I am going to try to make the workshop in Watervliet on Tuesday 6/30 for the I-787 study. For a road like I-787 through Albany, I don't see where converting the freeway to a boulevard makes sense, considering the volume of traffic, the fact that a railroad also runs within the median for a portion of I-787 through downtown Albany and its common usefulness as a primary corridor between Albany and Troy. There's also the matter of the Port of Albany to consider as well. Given those factors, I think that I-787 will remain as a freeway.

[iBallasticwolf2]

If any of 787 is to be boulevarded, it'd have to be a longer stretch, so that traffic actually is forced to slow down.

Like 787 being a boulevard south of I-90. But that is actually a very important route.

[Rothman]

I am going to try to make the workshop in Watervliet on Tuesday 6/30 for the I-787 study. For a road like I-787 through Albany, I don't see where converting the freeway to a boulevard makes sense, considering the volume of traffic, the fact that a railroad also runs within the median for a portion of I-787 through downtown Albany and its common usefulness as a primary corridor between Albany and Troy. There's also the matter of the Port of Albany to consider as well. Given those factors, I think that I-787 will remain as a freeway.

I really don't see how it could be torn down at this point.  At least for the I-81 viaduct, people are pointing to I-481.

[Dougtone]

I am going to try to make the workshop in Watervliet on Tuesday 6/30 for the I-787 study. For a road like I-787 through Albany, I don't see where converting the freeway to a boulevard makes sense, considering the volume of traffic, the fact that a railroad also runs within the median for a portion of I-787 through downtown Albany and its common usefulness as a primary corridor between Albany and Troy. There's also the matter of the Port of Albany to consider as well. Given those factors, I think that I-787 will remain as a freeway.

I really don't see how it could be torn down at this point.  At least for the I-81 viaduct, people are pointing to I-481.

Agreed. I don't think that there's an adequate alternative if I-787 was torn down, as it is a critical piece of the local highway network. The Northway, Thruway and I-90 would then become overburdened at times, in my opinion. Plus, there's the question of funding.

[route17fan]

I am going to try to make the workshop in Watervliet on Tuesday 6/30 for the I-787 study. For a road like I-787 through Albany, I don't see where converting the freeway to a boulevard makes sense, considering the volume of traffic, the fact that a railroad also runs within the median for a portion of I-787 through downtown Albany and its common usefulness as a primary corridor between Albany and Troy. There's also the matter of the Port of Albany to consider as well. Given those factors, I think that I-787 will remain as a freeway.

I really don't see how it could be torn down at this point.  At least for the I-81 viaduct, people are pointing to I-481.

Agreed. I don't think that there's an adequate alternative if I-787 was torn down, as it is a critical piece of the local highway network. The Northway, Thruway and I-90 would then become overburdened at times, in my opinion. Plus, there's the question of funding.

After having been a resident of the Albany area for 7 years, I too agree with the above sentiments. Making it a boulevard is (to me) not a wise decision.

[froggie]

What COULD eventually be torn down is the massive tangle of ramps at and near the Dunn Bridge.

[cl94]

What COULD eventually be torn down is the massive tangle of ramps at and near the Dunn Bridge.

Yes. Hell, I'd say replace the Dunn Memorial Bridge and redo the ramps. That would do more than tearing out I-787.

[Buffaboy]

What COULD eventually be torn down is the massive tangle of ramps at and near the Dunn Bridge.

Yes. Hell, I'd say replace the Dunn Memorial Bridge and redo the ramps. That would do more than tearing out I-787.

This, plus I think many of these stubs like the "highway" that runs under the Empire State Plaza need to be reconfigured for the current usage, it just looks odd on a map and is really just a glorified entrance to a parking garage.

In a perfect world, the highway would've been good for aesthetics, but the concept just doesn't hold water today.

[noelbotevera]

I-787 may have to try out one of I-278's construction techniques if it wanted a redo. For example, I-278 between exit 23-29. It gives off killer views of Manhattan, yet looks very interesting.

When I-787 was constructed, I feel like it could be a mix of parkway/viaduct. That's something new there.

[The Ghostbuster]

The only change I'd make to Interstate 787 is eliminate the need to exit the mainline to access the Thruway. The mainline lanes should go to the Thruway, not to US 9W/McCarty Avenue.

[Rothman]

What COULD eventually be torn down is the massive tangle of ramps at and near the Dunn Bridge.

Yes. Hell, I'd say replace the Dunn Memorial Bridge and redo the ramps. That would do more than tearing out I-787.

This, plus I think many of these stubs like the "highway" that runs under the Empire State Plaza need to be reconfigured for the current usage, it just looks odd on a map and is really just a glorified entrance to a parking garage.

I use it to get to State Street all the time.

[Duke87]

Mall Arterial is a really cool road to drive down. I've never seen anything quite like it anywhere else. That said, with it a given that it will never be anything more than a stub to not much of anywhere, it is certainly a ripe candidate for some reconfiguring. Indeed, traffic may well be better served if it were to be removed and the end of the bridge tied directly into Madison Ave, since then that movement could just go straight rather than having to make two turns in rapid succession.

The question is, what's the traffic split between Empire Plaza and the Pearl St exit? If the latter dominates then it's definitely better off reconfigured.

[vdeane]

It would appear to be 14k for Pearl St and 21k for Empire State Plaza using Traffic Data Viewer, but those counts are forecasted from 13-15 year old data.

[Buffaboy]

Does Albany have more vehicular traffic than Buffalo (by AADT)?

[Rothman]

Does Albany have more vehicular traffic than Buffalo (by AADT)?

Don't know about more, but on a fun visit to Region 5 I had some time ago, they showed how in Buffalo they don't have the rush hour "bumps" on a daily traffic volume graph.  It peaks around lunch time.

[Buffaboy]

Does Albany have more vehicular traffic than Buffalo (by AADT)?

Don't know about more, but on a fun visit to Region 5 I had some time ago, they showed how in Buffalo they don't have the rush hour "bumps" on a daily traffic volume graph.  It peaks around lunch time.

That's interesting and seems to corroborate what I noticed a few weekdays ago when I was out during lunch time and ran into a ton of traffic on an arterial street.