New York

[vdeane]

Once in a blue moon the traffic reports even mention accidents on random side streets in faraway towns, so it's not impossible.  Plus, if one were to say "backups on the Northway from Route 7 to the twins", to which exit (6 or 7) would they be referring?  Could be either.

It's a very short distance between those exits, so it really doesn't matter.

Precisely. The concurrency is shorter than Latham Farms (the adjacent strip mall) is long. WB NY 7 even stays on a C/D road. If Exit 7 is backed up, Exit 6 is almost always congested as well.

I've found it's usually closer to exit 7 that backups form, at least outside of tourist season.  Of course, since I get off at exit 6, I take advantage of that fact and zoom by the stopped cars on the times when the queue extends further back.  Once it gets too far back, however, oftentimes some yahoos try to use the exit only lane as a passing lane and slow everyone down when they merge back.

Going back to the discussion of I-87 and the Albany area.. Has NYSDOT ever had plans of widening the Northway between the Thruway and the Twin Bridges from 6 lanes to 8 lanes? Last time I was in the area it seemed pretty congested.

As bridges south of Exit 13 are replaced, they are being widened to accommodate 8 lanes. At this point in time, it's not being widened, nor is any plan to do so in the near future. Most of this is because the bottleneck is between Exits 7 and 8. Except on the segment south of NY 5, traffic counts on I-87 are highest between Exits 5 and 8. To eliminate the bottleneck, you'd have to replace the Twin Bridges or build another span for one direction of traffic and have the other carriageway split.

In reality, it needs 8 lanes south of Exit 9. Doing this would reduce traffic on US 9 to a reasonable level and might even divert traffic from NY 32. Yet, due to not having several million dollars to replace the bridges, nothing is being widened.

Given the condition of those bridges, I'd favor replacements.

[cl94]

Given the condition of those bridges, I'd favor replacements.

Even it is replaced, the MPO appears to be quite opposed to adding lanes anywhere, operating under the "automated vehicles will solve everything" viewpoint. Yeah, about that...

[Rothman]

Given the condition of those bridges, I'd favor replacements.

Even it is replaced, the MPO appears to be quite opposed to adding lanes anywhere, operating under the "automated vehicles will solve everything" viewpoint. Yeah, about that...

Heh.  I remember working with one of the honchos of CDTC.  He really did seem to be determined to bring the world of The Jetsons into reality.  He had all sorts of quixotic ideas, but you're right:  Adding lanes isn't on their radar and, in reality, not on NYSDOT's, either.  In fact, I heard one office director at NYSDOT gripe about the Thruway work between Exits 23 and 24: "That's not our policy!" He growled.

[vdeane]

Given the condition of those bridges, I'd favor replacements.

Even it is replaced, the MPO appears to be quite opposed to adding lanes anywhere, operating under the "automated vehicles will solve everything" viewpoint. Yeah, about that...

Heh.  I remember working with one of the honchos of CDTC.  He really did seem to be determined to bring the world of The Jetsons into reality.  He had all sorts of quixotic ideas, but you're right:  Adding lanes isn't on their radar and, in reality, not on NYSDOT's, either.  In fact, I heard one office director at NYSDOT gripe about the Thruway work between Exits 23 and 24: "That's not our policy!" He growled.

Would that be the same guy who wants to reduce the speed limit on Wolf Rd to 25 and implement a road diet?  But yeah, CDTC is very much in bike/ped advocacy mode right now.

I think it's current Region 1 policy that any widening of the Northway would be HOV/HOT/etc. lanes and not general purpose lanes.  Ramp meters were also considered and rejected.

Not surprised about the gripe over the Thruway work.  After looking at the traffic counts there, I was surprised myself.  Even near rush hour, the road looks empty.

[NJRoadfan]

Yet another Kosciuszko Bridge in need of replacement.

[cl94]

Given the condition of those bridges, I'd favor replacements.

Even it is replaced, the MPO appears to be quite opposed to adding lanes anywhere, operating under the "automated vehicles will solve everything" viewpoint. Yeah, about that...

Heh.  I remember working with one of the honchos of CDTC.  He really did seem to be determined to bring the world of The Jetsons into reality.  He had all sorts of quixotic ideas, but you're right:  Adding lanes isn't on their radar and, in reality, not on NYSDOT's, either.  In fact, I heard one office director at NYSDOT gripe about the Thruway work between Exits 23 and 24: "That's not our policy!" He growled.

Would that be the same guy who wants to reduce the speed limit on Wolf Rd to 25 and implement a road diet?  But yeah, CDTC is very much in bike/ped advocacy mode right now.

I think it's current Region 1 policy that any widening of the Northway would be HOV/HOT/etc. lanes and not general purpose lanes.  Ramp meters were also considered and rejected.

You've got to be kidding me. By any chance, is that dimwit from Albany? Everyone I know who grew up or lived there for a long time wants everything widened. At the current rate of population growth, it'll all be LOS F in 10-15 years if nothing is widened.

Region 5 might be a bunch of bozos, but GBNRTC wants almost everything in Buffalo widened with GP lanes to get the region to LOS C-D or better in addition to pushing transit and bike usage. Let's just say the people above me were not happy when Cuomo ordered the road diet on NY 198.

[Mergingtraffic]

Queens, NY people:

Anybody know if the old button copy on Rockwaway Point Blvd by the Cross Bay Bridge and the Marine Parkway Bridge?

[vdeane]

You've got to be kidding me. By any chance, is that dimwit from Albany? Everyone I know who grew up or lived there for a long time wants everything widened. At the current rate of population growth, it'll all be LOS F in 10-15 years if nothing is widened.

Not sure where he's from.  This isn't something that's being seriously looked at right now; it was mentioned in a design for bike/ped training given by the FHWA.  Increasing bike/ped accessibility is currently a big priority of the MPO and the municipalities in the area.

[Alps]

Queens, NY people:

Anybody know if the old button copy on Rockwaway Point Blvd by the Cross Bay Bridge and the Marine Parkway Bridge?

Some. Not for long. Actually, I think only at CBB now.

[D-Dey65]

Widening the Cross Bronx wouldn't do anything unless there's another bridge between the Bronx and the island or I-95 gets widened up to New Haven. If they could dualize the Throgs Neck and improve the Clearview, that's one thing, but there are multiple bottlenecks.

Believe it or not, I'm not sure I'd advocate widening the Cross Bronx, but I like the idea of dualizing the Throgs Neck Bridge. You could reduce congestion coming on and off the Cross Island Parkway, and get rid of weaving between the Cross Bronx and Throgs Neck Expressways.

[iBallasticwolf2]

Widening the Cross Bronx wouldn't do anything unless there's another bridge between the Bronx and the island or I-95 gets widened up to New Haven. If they could dualize the Throgs Neck and improve the Clearview, that's one thing, but there are multiple bottlenecks.

Believe it or not, I'm not sure I'd advocate widening the Cross Bronx, but I like the idea of dualizing the Throgs Neck Bridge. You could reduce congestion coming on and off the Cross Island Parkway, and get rid of weaving between the Cross Bronx and Throgs Neck Expressways.

Would AET tolling on the NYC bridges help traffic?

[cl94]

Widening the Cross Bronx wouldn't do anything unless there's another bridge between the Bronx and the island or I-95 gets widened up to New Haven. If they could dualize the Throgs Neck and improve the Clearview, that's one thing, but there are multiple bottlenecks.

Believe it or not, I'm not sure I'd advocate widening the Cross Bronx, but I like the idea of dualizing the Throgs Neck Bridge. You could reduce congestion coming on and off the Cross Island Parkway, and get rid of weaving between the Cross Bronx and Throgs Neck Expressways.

Would AET tolling on the NYC bridges help traffic?

They're working on AET as we speak, but tollbooth capacity isn't the issue. It's the lack of lanes on the crossings themselves. Every major crossing is a bottleneck because you have a bunch of expressways/parkways converging and the lanes aren't balanced. Backups originate at the merge point or after the tolls when a bunch of lanes get dropped. At GW, for example, you have I-95, Palisades Parkway, US 1/9, and NJ 4 feeding into 7 lanes of traffic. Backups there originate after the tolls.

Heck, backups often extend through the tolls. I've gone through E-ZPass lanes without having to slow down because traffic was backed up so much.

[The Ghostbuster]

And from pictures I've seen of New York City's expressways and parkways, it is impossible to widen outwards. What about elevating new lanes over the existing lanes or going underground?

[cl94]

And from pictures I've seen of New York City's expressways and parkways, it is impossible to widen outwards. What about elevating new lanes over the existing lanes or going underground?

Head over to Google and turn on the terrain layer. Contrary to popular belief, New York is anything but flat. The Cross Bronx alternates between deep cuts/tunnels and viaducts over valleys and rivers with relatively little change in elevation. Can't build above because of the depressed/tunnel sections and can't build under for the opposite reason, unless you went all-out and built a deep set of express lanes extending from New Jersey to the New England Thruway that tunnels under everything.

While the other boroughs aren't as extreme, these parkways and expressways were pushed through already-old neighborhoods. It's not all-elevated or all-depressed anywhere.

[Alps]

And from pictures I've seen of New York City's expressways and parkways, it is impossible to widen outwards. What about elevating new lanes over the existing lanes or going underground?

Underground, you face the issue of centuries of buried utilities that in essence, no one really knows what's under there until they start digging. Many of these utilities could be active and unmapped or incorrectly mapped, and you might find all sorts of other stuff along the way. Not to mention crossing streets with known utilities and subway lines, and having to relocate everything you go near. Cost- and effort-prohibitive.
Above ground, you face billions of dollars in seismically stable structure, and you have to dig column foundations, which puts you right back in the same spot as the underground solution. Not nearly as disruptive, but the issues crop up, and then add the visual divider you've just erected between communities. Cost- and politically prohibitive.
Widening in place is the only tenable solution. It's limited to undercutting or overtopping the frontage roads and could probably buy you two lanes in each direction if you pack it in. You're unlikely to run into nearly as much stuff going sideways as you are going down, and while you would need to build a lot of expensive wall, at least you're not changing the neighborhood dynamic of the road with your new structure.

[Buffaboy]

Housekeeping note (I guess), I will be away from AARoads for awhile until I get a handle on classwork. Civil engineering takes a lot of brain cells.

On a side note, I completed my first surveying lab today. Yay!

Widening the Cross Bronx wouldn't do anything unless there's another bridge between the Bronx and the island or I-95 gets widened up to New Haven. If they could dualize the Throgs Neck and improve the Clearview, that's one thing, but there are multiple bottlenecks.

Believe it or not, I'm not sure I'd advocate widening the Cross Bronx, but I like the idea of dualizing the Throgs Neck Bridge. You could reduce congestion coming on and off the Cross Island Parkway, and get rid of weaving between the Cross Bronx and Throgs Neck Expressways.

Would AET tolling on the NYC bridges help traffic?

They're working on AET as we speak, but tollbooth capacity isn't the issue. It's the lack of lanes on the crossings themselves. Every major crossing is a bottleneck because you have a bunch of expressways/parkways converging and the lanes aren't balanced. Backups originate at the merge point or after the tolls when a bunch of lanes get dropped. At GW, for example, you have I-95, Palisades Parkway, US 1/9, and NJ 4 feeding into 7 lanes of traffic. Backups there originate after the tolls.

Heck, backups often extend through the tolls. I've gone through E-ZPass lanes without having to slow down because traffic was backed up so much.

When will they expand upstate? 2020?

Given the condition of those bridges, I'd favor replacements.

Even it is replaced, the MPO appears to be quite opposed to adding lanes anywhere, operating under the "automated vehicles will solve everything" viewpoint. Yeah, about that...

Heh.  I remember working with one of the honchos of CDTC.  He really did seem to be determined to bring the world of The Jetsons into reality.  He had all sorts of quixotic ideas, but you're right:  Adding lanes isn't on their radar and, in reality, not on NYSDOT's, either.  In fact, I heard one office director at NYSDOT gripe about the Thruway work between Exits 23 and 24: "That's not our policy!" He growled.

Would that be the same guy who wants to reduce the speed limit on Wolf Rd to 25 and implement a road diet?  But yeah, CDTC is very much in bike/ped advocacy mode right now.

I think it's current Region 1 policy that any widening of the Northway would be HOV/HOT/etc. lanes and not general purpose lanes.  Ramp meters were also considered and rejected.

You've got to be kidding me. By any chance, is that dimwit from Albany? Everyone I know who grew up or lived there for a long time wants everything widened. At the current rate of population growth, it'll all be LOS F in 10-15 years if nothing is widened.

Region 5 might be a bunch of bozos, but GBNRTC wants almost everything in Buffalo widened with GP lanes to get the region to LOS C-D or better in addition to pushing transit and bike usage. Let's just say the people above me were not happy when Cuomo ordered the road diet on NY 198.

With the way things are going and the lack of resources needed to repair shoddy roads in the Northtowns, that'll be the day. Wake me up when the Thruway is continuous 4 lanes from barrier to barrier in Buffalo (not counting exit/merge lanes).

I do think that Buffalo is ahead of the game in bike transportation. 3 hours east in Utica it's like every street is an expressway, which isn't terrible, but not convenient for bikes when they are unneeded expressways. Especially Genesee St. and Oriskany Blvd.

[SignBridge]

Cl94 is correct in his description of the physical nature of the Cross Bronx Expwy. It was probably the most difficult and challenging 5 miles of highway ever built thru any city anywhere. You can read about what it took to accomplish it in Robert Moses' biography The Power Broker, by Robert Caro. To do any kind of expansion would be even more cost prohibitive and complex than The Big Dig was in Boston which was a small job compared to what the Cross Bronx Expwy. would take. It is virtually impossible to do. And even if it were possible, the politicians who control the funding would never have the will to do it.

In my opinion, the best most feasible option is still the bridge or tunnel crossing Long Island Sound connecting I-287 at Rye to the vicinity of Oyster Bay on Long Island. But the politicians probably won't have the will to overcome the opposition of the affluent communities in those areas. So again nothing will get done. 

[Buffaboy]

Cl94 is correct in his description of the physical nature of the Cross Bronx Expwy. It was probably the most difficult and challenging 5 miles of highway ever built thru any city anywhere. You can read about what it took to accomplish it in Robert Moses' biography The Power Broker, by Robert Caro. To do any kind of expansion would be even more cost prohibitive and complex than The Big Dig was in Boston which was a small job compared to what the Cross Bronx Expwy. would take. It is virtually impossible to do. And even if it were possible, the politicians who control the funding would never have the will to do it.

In my opinion, the best most feasible option is still the bridge or tunnel crossing Long Island Sound connecting I-287 at Rye to the vicinity of Oyster Bay on Long Island. But the politicians probably won't have the will to overcome the opposition of the affluent communities in those areas. So again nothing will get done.

I read about it awhile back on Wikipedia. I didn't even know that NYC had canyons and gorges, that must've been a crazy project.

They probably could've built the Lower Manhattan Expressway with the kind of effort that required.

[SignBridge]

Only the borough of the Bronx and upper Manhattan has that really severe terrain. The other boroughs have some hills etc. but nothing like the Bronx.

[The Nature Boy]

I always wonder how beautiful what is now New York City must have been when it was in its natural state.

[amroad17]

I was browsing Google Earth and I looked in the Albany area. Why is Corporate Woods Boulevard  connected to I-90 in such a large trumpet with what appears to be a concrete, interstate grade roadway? There's a similar connection on I-787.

Google "I-687". That's why.

I saw a power transmission line travels between the two trumpets, I was definitely wrong assuming that's where the routing of I-687 was supposed to go.

http://www.interstate-guide.com/i-687_ny.html

I really miss the classic 1960's and 1970's Rand McNally cartography.

[vdeane]

Speaking of Albany, the new Northway tenth mile markers near exit 4 are in.  I guess the posts look taller without the signs, because aside from the full mile, they're standard rather than enhanced.  The "3" on the enhanced one looks like it's anorexic, though.

Hopefully they can get some more mileposts in soon.  Changing styles 3-4 times in a 15 minute commute is disconcerting.

[Mergingtraffic]

I wish they would create a full connection with the Cross Island and Clearview. OR a connection to the Hutch from the Bruckner WB. Right now it's Whitestone for points north and Throgs Neck for points east

I'll explain: coming from, let's say JFK going to CT, I'd take the Whitestone to the Hutch (to bypass the traffic on I-95 @ Pelham and Hutch) to I-95 via Exit 6.  I hop to I-95 b/c the Hutch north of here bunches up by the Cross County and up by the Mobil Station.

But if the Whitestone is a mess, the Throgs Neck is good I'll take that...but sometimes it's not a better route b/c of the said backup on I-95 by Pelham Pkwy.

Switching between both bridges isn't easy. Going from Whitestone to Throgs one has to take Cross County EB to Clearview and go south turn around at an exit and come back to the Throgs.

If I'm coming from LI and the Whitestone is a mess, I'd like to take the Throgs but can't b/c there is no easy way to get the Hutch w/o hitting a back up on I-95. If there was an easy way to the Hutch from the Throgs via Bruckner I'd be in heaven.

[SignBridge]

Those "half" interchanges are typical of 1950's-60's highway construction in NYC. Sometimes to change from one highway to another you have to get off onto the street and work your way over to the other highway. Ya' gotta be sharp to drive in New York City.

Some other examples of this are the interchange of the L.I.E. (I-495) and the Van Wyck Expwy. Ext. (I-678) in Flushing and the interchange of the Van Wyck Expwy. and the Grand Central/J. Robinson Pkwys. in Kew Gardens, both in Queens.

[shadyjay]

Took a little trip from VT out to Massena, NY over the weekend.  Didn't get many road pics... but did get a couple:


Button copy and (mostly) all-text signage at NY 374's eastern terminus at NY 22.  Seeing as how there's (relatively) new signage in the area, not sure how this one got skipped.  (apologies for the crappy shot... some weird camera setting on my phone activated and darkened up the shot, but you get the gist of it).


Northway at Exit 38N.  No mention of NY 22 North on this sign. 


Northway at Exit 39.  A quick 1-mile jaunt on the Northway, spliced in with (mostly) back roads.  Some new signage in this area.  The 1 mile advance signs for Exits 38 & 39 look too compressed.  I didn't get a shot of them, though.