New York

[Rothman]

Nowadays, you have to be careful with college and graduate school and getting the bang-for-the-buck.  As my boss puts it: "What do you get when you graduate college with an engineering degree?  An engineering degree.  What do you get when you get a master's in engineering?  An engineering degree."  By this, he meant for engineers that want to get into the dirty work of doing engineering the cost of graduate school may not be worth the benefits. 

Look at it this way:  Those years that you are paying to go to school are years you could be earning money.  Even in other areas, some of us who got masters in non-engineering fields and yet ended up in transportation are kicking ourselves since -- when the hiring windows are open -- the State of New York has been focusing on providing "traineeships" which only require a bachelor's.  They start at a lower rate, but after a couple of years, you end up where you'd be if you had a master's.  Again, getting a master's equals spending money when you could have been earning it.

Of course, if you want to go into research, you can go cl94's route.  Had to snicker a little at his glowing review of TRB.  NYSDOT used to send down a healthy contingent of individuals to TRB, funding them fully.  Over the past few years, that contingent has become much smaller and NYSDOT is less willing to fund your attendance.  You can still go on your own dime, of course. 

However, regarding practitioners, the perspective on TRB research has been growing more and more critical.  I'm hearing more people I work with say things like, "It's research for other researchers."  It is sounding like transportation research is falling prey to the same pitfalls as other areas of academia:  The research is more about churning it amongst other academic researchers trying to get tenure rather than actually providing informed opinions on policy and engineering practices that influence DOT behavior.  This view has led to the diminished attendance at TRB over the years I've been in the business.

[Rothman]

It's also good to join you local branch of YPT if there's on in the area.

To what benefit?   Reminds me of those that say joining NYSATE is also a "good idea."  Sure, you get to go to a picnic, but really there's not much else to it.

[vdeane]

That matches my experience attending a webinar on transportation research.  Everything was geared towards people doing more research.

Interestingly, one of the people in a traineeship in Region 1 has a master's in planning, and I have a planning job that started at grade 18 but only have a bachelor's.  Just a quirk of how the TA list was designed and when the person with the traineeship got hired.

I believe the Albany branch of YPT does interesting things like tour Albany Airport, but I've only been a member for the past couple months and the only thing so far was a meet and greet; in practice, it appears to function as a planning club at UAlbany as the majority of members are students or alumni there (actually, I think I'm the only person who isn't).

[machias]

CDTC has been using summer interns as of late to inventory all the pedestrian infrastructure in the area.  Not sure what the extent of their traffic count program is.  NYSDOT internships can be all over, but I can tell you that they don't pay anything (the only state agency to have no paid internships, btw).  It's also good to join you local branch of YPT if there's on in the area.

Regarding the Thruway control cities, it appears from the signs that Buffalo, Albany, and NYC are the primary control cities, with Erie, Syracuse, and Montreal functioning as secondary control cities, and Rochester, Utica, and Boston as tertiary.  It's about long distance travel, and because Albany is the capital district (and where the handoff between I-87 and I-90 is).  And while Albany itself isn't big, the Capital District metro area is pretty sizeable, and according to Wikipedia's numbers from the 2010 Census, the second largest in the state after NYC (beating even Buffalo and nearly twice as large as Syracuse).

Regarding I-790, I believe there's a long range plan to get it re-routed onto NY 49.

Converting NY 49 and NY 365 to NY 790 (essentially connecting Thruway Exit 33 to Thruway Exit 31 with "790") is on the HOCTS radar and there's a stronger push for it to happen with the Nano activity, but I don't believe there's funding yet.

Long range plans (a couple of decades) would then involve converting the new NY 790 to I-790. I asked about "Future NY 790" signs, even if they're up for 20 years like some of the Future I-86 signs in the southern part of the state, and apparently they're thinking about it.

[Alps]

Nowadays, you have to be careful with college and graduate school and getting the bang-for-the-buck.  As my boss puts it: "What do you get when you graduate college with an engineering degree?  An engineering degree.  What do you get when you get a master's in engineering?  An engineering degree."  By this, he meant for engineers that want to get into the dirty work of doing engineering the cost of graduate school may not be worth the benefits. 

Look at it this way:  Those years that you are paying to go to school are years you could be earning money.  Even in other areas, some of us who got masters in non-engineering fields and yet ended up in transportation are kicking ourselves since -- when the hiring windows are open -- the State of New York has been focusing on providing "traineeships" which only require a bachelor's.  They start at a lower rate, but after a couple of years, you end up where you'd be if you had a master's.  Again, getting a master's equals spending money when you could have been earning it.

Of course, if you want to go into research, you can go cl94's route.  Had to snicker a little at his glowing review of TRB.  NYSDOT used to send down a healthy contingent of individuals to TRB, funding them fully.  Over the past few years, that contingent has become much smaller and NYSDOT is less willing to fund your attendance.  You can still go on your own dime, of course. 

However, regarding practitioners, the perspective on TRB research has been growing more and more critical.  I'm hearing more people I work with say things like, "It's research for other researchers."  It is sounding like transportation research is falling prey to the same pitfalls as other areas of academia:  The research is more about churning it amongst other academic researchers trying to get tenure rather than actually providing informed opinions on policy and engineering practices that influence DOT behavior.  This view has led to the diminished attendance at TRB over the years I've been in the business.

I got my Master's year paid for. Otherwise it definitely wouldn't have been worth it for what I'm doing now (as a practicing engineer).

[Rothman]

Nowadays, you have to be careful with college and graduate school and getting the bang-for-the-buck.  As my boss puts it: "What do you get when you graduate college with an engineering degree?  An engineering degree.  What do you get when you get a master's in engineering?  An engineering degree."  By this, he meant for engineers that want to get into the dirty work of doing engineering the cost of graduate school may not be worth the benefits. 

Look at it this way:  Those years that you are paying to go to school are years you could be earning money.  Even in other areas, some of us who got masters in non-engineering fields and yet ended up in transportation are kicking ourselves since -- when the hiring windows are open -- the State of New York has been focusing on providing "traineeships" which only require a bachelor's.  They start at a lower rate, but after a couple of years, you end up where you'd be if you had a master's.  Again, getting a master's equals spending money when you could have been earning it.

Of course, if you want to go into research, you can go cl94's route.  Had to snicker a little at his glowing review of TRB.  NYSDOT used to send down a healthy contingent of individuals to TRB, funding them fully.  Over the past few years, that contingent has become much smaller and NYSDOT is less willing to fund your attendance.  You can still go on your own dime, of course. 

However, regarding practitioners, the perspective on TRB research has been growing more and more critical.  I'm hearing more people I work with say things like, "It's research for other researchers."  It is sounding like transportation research is falling prey to the same pitfalls as other areas of academia:  The research is more about churning it amongst other academic researchers trying to get tenure rather than actually providing informed opinions on policy and engineering practices that influence DOT behavior.  This view has led to the diminished attendance at TRB over the years I've been in the business.

I got my Master's year paid for. Otherwise it definitely wouldn't have been worth it for what I'm doing now (as a practicing engineer).

Heh.  My master's years were "paid for" as well.  Free tuition, lots of fees waived and a paid research assistantship.  Wasn't enough to cover living expenses, however.

[Rothman]

As for I-86, exit 131 is still on the STIP mainly because there's a strong local push to get it built.  Exit 122 was just completed, as was the total reconstruction between NY 17K and I-84 (and NOW Schumer wants to widen that section...), and the bridge over the Neversink River.  I wouldn't be surprised if there's another unfunded project between exits 79 and 84, given the fact that I-86 ends at NY 79.

Prospect Mountain is the last project preventing the gap in the Southern Tier from being closed.  That and being a very high profile project is probably the reason why it's still going.  Aside from Hale Eddy and exit 131, the other projects aren't even sexy enough to put on the website, let along throw money at.

Yeah, Exit 122 was one of those very old stragglers from the "statewide significant" days.  I'll check on Exit 131, but I'm betting it's in the same boat as Hale Eddy to Hancock.

And, I am correct.  Exit 131 isn't an active project in NYSDOT's program, just like Hale Eddy to Hancock.  Furthermore, I cannot find it on the STIP (vdeane, under what PIN did you see it?).

Also keep in mind that the STIP is merely an enabling document -- the only reason to have projects on there is so you can use federal funds on them and the action to remove anything from the STIP can lag behind reality for both serious political reasons and something as simple as the STIP dude in the Region simply hasn't gotten around to it yet.  Even if a project is on the STIP, it doesn't mean that NYSDOT will actually carry the project out.  In fact, FHWA is somewhat frustrated with how many amendments to the STIP NYSDOT approves; I've heard that NYSDOT is head and shoulders above any other state in that regard.

In other words, don't believe everything you read.

(P.S. Despite being completed only recently, the upgrade from Exit 116 to Exit 121 (NY 17K to I-84) was also funded years ago as part of the now-defunct statewide significance program as well).

[vdeane]

I admit it has been a little while since I last checked exit 131 (last year?).  Looks like it got nuked too, though the website still lists it as PIN 8006.96 if you dig far enough.  Still, the municipalities push for it.

[noelbotevera]

If NYSDOT is stalling on I-86, then what's the point of trying to replace NY 17? Just delete the designation, or go balls to the wall and just sign it all along NY 17.

[cl94]

If NYSDOT is stalling on I-86, then what's the point of trying to replace NY 17? Just delete the designation, or go balls to the wall and just sign it all along NY 17.

I wouldn't be shocked if NYSDOT plans to truncate NY 17 to I-81 after the Prospect Mountain stuff is done. Regions 5 and 6 barely sign NY 17 as it is.

[Rothman]

If NYSDOT is stalling on I-86, then what's the point of trying to replace NY 17? Just delete the designation, or go balls to the wall and just sign it all along NY 17.

There was once more political will and money to pursue the completion of the conversion when there's just not anymore.  Kind of awkward to take the I-86 shields down now (and unnecessary).

[Rothman]

I admit it has been a little while since I last checked exit 131 (last year?).  Looks like it got nuked too, though the website still lists it as PIN 8006.96 if you dig far enough.  Still, the municipalities push for it.

Yep, that's the PIN I knew; didn't know if they had started up work under a different one or not (and they haven't). 

As I've mentioned before, all those municipalities need to do is look at Binghamton to see an example where interstates were no economic saviors.

[Duke87]

If the pension fund is separate, where the hell is the transportation funding going?

Transportation infrastructure is expensive.  Bottom line.  Period.  As has been the case across most (all?) of the country, the costs of materials has jumped significantly in the past decade.  Even though oil's come back down in recent weeks, steel and concrete are still expensive.  And then there is payroll/personnel costs, which is the single largest expense (by far) for transit agencies.

Steel prices have dropped considerably over the past year although they are still a bit higher than they were 15 years go. And of course the market remains volatile enough that anyone planning projects which will take years to complete cannot rely on the price staying as low as it is right now.

Realistically, though, while downstate suffers from costs having spiraled out of control (we're building the world's most expensive subway line ever!), upstate has not so much.

New York's lack of ability to pay for things cannot be pinned on any one problem in particular. What it is is the end result of a general philosophy that has persisted for decades of creating a government structure which is extremely feudal and inefficient, heavy on patronage, constantly finding new matters to meddle with, and then grabbing money from every which where to pay for it all, making the state an expensive place to live and do business without providing services in return that get people their money's worth.

[Rothman]

If the pension fund is separate, where the hell is the transportation funding going?

Transportation infrastructure is expensive.  Bottom line.  Period.  As has been the case across most (all?) of the country, the costs of materials has jumped significantly in the past decade.  Even though oil's come back down in recent weeks, steel and concrete are still expensive.  And then there is payroll/personnel costs, which is the single largest expense (by far) for transit agencies.

Steel prices have dropped considerably over the past year although they are still a bit higher than they were 15 years go. And of course the market remains volatile enough that anyone planning projects which will take years to complete cannot rely on the price staying as low as it is right now.

Realistically, though, while downstate suffers from costs having spiraled out of control (we're building the world's most expensive subway line ever!), upstate has not so much.

New York's lack of ability to pay for things cannot be pinned on any one problem in particular. What it is is the end result of a general philosophy that has persisted for decades of creating a government structure which is extremely feudal and inefficient, heavy on patronage, constantly finding new matters to meddle with, and then grabbing money from every which where to pay for it all, making the state an expensive place to live and do business without providing services in return that get people their money's worth.

Actually, despite price fluctuations that should work in its favor, NYSDOT is finding that estimates are still out of line with the bids that come in.  No one is yet sure why, is my understanding of the current state of affairs, but bids have been coming in high enough where NYSDOT regions have had to provide justifications for their acceptance or re-letting.

[vdeane]

As I've mentioned before, all those municipalities need to do is look at Binghamton to see an example where interstates were no economic saviors.

I believe they actually want the interchange for the congestion mitigation.

[Rothman]

As I've mentioned before, all those municipalities need to do is look at Binghamton to see an example where interstates were no economic saviors.

I believe they actually want the interchange for the congestion mitigation.

Ah yes, the storied traffic jams in Binghamton.     Although congestion mitigation may have been one of the reasons behind Prospect Mountain, safety and the fact they had to replace the bridges anyway were much more significant.

Besides, the whole idea of I-86 was sold on the idea that it would bring $3.2 billion in economic development to the Southern Tier.  I remember the number well, because the study behind it was widely regarded as a complete joke.

In any matter, my point was that if someone suggests that interstates automatically cause economic development, all they have to do is look at Binghamton to see that just isn't the case.

[AMLNet49]

So I'm trying to wrap my head around what this will look like when they stop funding new projects. As I understand, I-86 will be signed from its start in Penna all the way to Exit 84 in the town of Deposit? And then after the at-grade intersection with Hale Eddy Road through Hancock will remain signed as NY-17 if they don't upgrade it. But then on the other side of that project do they sign the rest of the road to I-87 as I-86 or just leave it as a dangling end which would make people on I-87 not recognize that the NY-17 exit actually leads to an Interstate?

[machias]

I'm wondering if the budgetary concerns and projects falling off the STIP is why the Utica North-South Arterial is going to still have two traffic signals when this project is complete, when the original plan was to eliminate all traffic signals and have a second interchange at Oswego or Noyes Street.

[Buffaboy]

I'm wondering if the budgetary concerns and projects falling off the STIP is why the Utica North-South Arterial is going to still have two traffic signals when this project is complete, when the original plan was to eliminate all traffic signals and have a second interchange at Oswego or Noyes Street.

Why can't the area just snatch some of the $500M of the economic competition money and use it for that?

[Rothman]

I'm wondering if the budgetary concerns and projects falling off the STIP is why the Utica North-South Arterial is going to still have two traffic signals when this project is complete, when the original plan was to eliminate all traffic signals and have a second interchange at Oswego or Noyes Street.

Hm.  I'd have to go back and check, but I'm pretty sure that the North-South Arterial projects didn't experience any major design changes...just some funding issues along the way (i.e., "When can we fit this into the statewide program?").

[Rothman]

I'm wondering if the budgetary concerns and projects falling off the STIP is why the Utica North-South Arterial is going to still have two traffic signals when this project is complete, when the original plan was to eliminate all traffic signals and have a second interchange at Oswego or Noyes Street.

Why can't the area just snatch some of the $500M of the economic competition money and use it for that?

*guffaws*



That "economic competition" crap is just to funnel money to businesses who have friends in high places, not public agencies.

[Mergingtraffic]

Does anyone know if every new project go through the typical NYSDOT letting process? I keep close tabs on project plans and such through the NYSDOT website, but there are new sign projects going on in the Central New York area that I've never seen plans for.  I can't find PIN or contract numbers for some of these projects on the "Projects In Neighborhood" site... one example being the signing rehab project in R3 Oswego County on I-81. The SUNY POLY sign project in Utica is another example. Do some projects just skip the normal channels?

Not every project goes through the typical NYSDOT letting process (e.g., local lets, design-build and VPPs being the typical exceptions), but the signing rehab should have been on there. 

I noticed that too.  I noticed some new BGS signs on the FDR last summer but never saw them on the DOT site.  The same with the I-895 signage on the Bronx River Parkway going SB.  They appeared one day and I was surprised.

[cl94]

I'm wondering if the budgetary concerns and projects falling off the STIP is why the Utica North-South Arterial is going to still have two traffic signals when this project is complete, when the original plan was to eliminate all traffic signals and have a second interchange at Oswego or Noyes Street.

Why can't the area just snatch some of the $500M of the economic competition money and use it for that?

*guffaws*



That "economic competition" crap is just to funnel money to businesses who have friends in high places, not public agencies.

Ding, ding, ding! This state runs on patronage. Haven't you learned that yet?   

[Duke87]

Actually, despite price fluctuations that should work in its favor, NYSDOT is finding that estimates are still out of line with the bids that come in.  No one is yet sure why, is my understanding of the current state of affairs, but bids have been coming in high enough where NYSDOT regions have had to provide justifications for their acceptance or re-letting.

Are these bids T&M or lump sum? If the former, are particular items exceeding estimates or is everything higher across the board? 

[Buffaboy]

I'm wondering if the budgetary concerns and projects falling off the STIP is why the Utica North-South Arterial is going to still have two traffic signals when this project is complete, when the original plan was to eliminate all traffic signals and have a second interchange at Oswego or Noyes Street.

Why can't the area just snatch some of the $500M of the economic competition money and use it for that?

*guffaws*



That "economic competition" crap is just to funnel money to businesses who have friends in high places, not public agencies.

Ding, ding, ding! This state runs on patronage. Haven't you learned that yet?   

If the pension fund is separate, where the hell is the transportation funding going?

Transportation infrastructure is expensive.  Bottom line.  Period.  As has been the case across most (all?) of the country, the costs of materials has jumped significantly in the past decade.  Even though oil's come back down in recent weeks, steel and concrete are still expensive.  And then there is payroll/personnel costs, which is the single largest expense (by far) for transit agencies.

New York's lack of ability to pay for things cannot be pinned on any one problem in particular. What it is is the end result of a general philosophy that has persisted for decades of creating a government structure which is extremely feudal and inefficient, heavy on patronage, constantly finding new matters to meddle with, and then grabbing money from every which where to pay for it all, making the state an expensive place to live and do business without providing services in return that get people their money's worth.

Yes...