New York

[kalvado]

I do not support going back to having RTOR be illegal everywhere in NY.  It would be absolutely painful to sit at some of the traffic lights upstate with no legitimate reason to keep me from turning right.

It is not just that - in many cases RTOR is what was apparently used to calculate capacity at design stage. I can think of a few spots where eliminating RTOR would require adding extra turn lane to preserve the capacity.
But this all boils down to enforcement practices, when laws are enforced for the sake of revenue, not for safety.

[steviep24]

On the topic of red light cameras, Rochester city council voted yesterday to end their red light camera program effective December 31.

[Duke87]

Well (chuckle!) Duke doesn't have to worry, 'cause in NYC RTOR is illegal except where specifically permitted so it's a non-issue.

Yes, well, I was speaking to cameras in Nassau and Suffolk Counties, which is what prompted this particular subdiscussion. Just because I live in NYC doesn't mean I don't drive elsewhere, y'know.

so many drivers abuse RTOR by not stopping and yielding and causing accidents.

How often do crashes actually happen this way, though? I don't see this as being a major problem.

There seems to be a public misconception that RTOR is legal, period, without having to stop and yield as the law requires.

Yes, well, this is what we get for putting stop signs everywhere. Most of the stop signs in this country should be yield signs because it isn't actually necessary to come to a complete stop in order to determine that it's safe to proceed. So naturally, American drivers have been conditioned to interpret "stop" to mean "yield" and they do this when turning right on red as well.

And, to be fair, there are situations where it isn't necessary to come to a complete stop to determine that it's safe to turn right on red. But there is no signage differentiating these situations from the situations where a full stop is necessary, and the law always mandates a full stop even when it isn't necessary in practice.

So, I would go in the opposite direction with this and do two things:
- enact a law stating that no state, county, or city authority may install a stop sign without producing a report for each intersection demonstrating that it is warranted at that particular location. These reports would expire after 10 years and need to redone to justify the stop sign's continued existence. After some established compliance date, any stop sign that doesn't have a current report would be considered unenforceable and any tickets given for running it could be thrown out in court on those grounds. The same authorities, however, can freely install as many yield signs as they want so long as the MUTCD is followed.
- amend the RTOR statute to allow the use of flashing yellow right arrows when cross traffic has a green light. Traffic turning on a flashing yellow right arrow, like with a flashing yellow left arrow, would be required to yield but not to stop. The use of this setup should be encouraged wherever it may be determined feasible.

I would hypothesize that doing this would increase compliance with traffic laws and increase safety. Why? For the same reason that raising speed limits that no one follows does. People are not unreasonable and if compliance rates with a rule are low, that generally means there is something wrong with the rule. Give people rules to follow that are generally reasonable and most people will follow them because there won't be much motive to violate them. Give people unreasonable rules and most will disregard them, creating a culture where it is socially acceptable to do so, and the rules lose their meaning and effectiveness.

[cl94]

How often do crashes actually happen this way, though? I don't see this as being a major problem.

When I was doing traffic counts, at least once a week at an intersection I was counting, often 2-3 times. And mind you, we only did counts Monday-Thursday. It is a huge problem in some places.

[SignBridge]

A lot of interesting ideas here. I for one, would not agree with allowing RTOR without a complete stop. Reason being that the traffic-light's being there to begin with indicates a dangerous intersection. And allowing traffic to proceed past a red-light is a privilege that should only be done with the utmost care and careful checking for cross-traffic. I think that merits a complete stop in most if not all cases.

BTW empirestate, I liked your comparison with the NYC Subways. Being a railroad buff, I am familiar with the history that led to the rule about pointing to the "conductor's board" before opening the doors at each station-stop. But can you imagine trying to enforce such a rule with people driving cars who are far less disciplined than railroad employees who are indoctrinated in rigid adherence to their rulebook?

[Duke87]

When I was doing traffic counts, at least once a week at an intersection I was counting, often 2-3 times. And mind you, we only did counts Monday-Thursday. It is a huge problem in some places.

Interesting. What are the sight lines like at this intersection? Might it be appropriate to prohibit RTOR there?

[cl94]

When I was doing traffic counts, at least once a week at an intersection I was counting, often 2-3 times. And mind you, we only did counts Monday-Thursday. It is a huge problem in some places.

Interesting. What are the sight lines like at this intersection? Might it be appropriate to prohibit RTOR there?

I worded that poorly. I saw an RTOR crash caused by someone turning that didn't yield at least once a week. Never two at the same location. Which meant I saw dozens over the course of a summer. I have witnessed a few at this intersection, generally people making rights from the left side of this image that slam into someone going straight or making a protected left. People in Buffalo are known for making "rolling stops".

[Alps]

A lot of interesting ideas here. I for one, would not agree with allowing RTOR without a complete stop. Reason being that the traffic-light's being there to begin with indicates a dangerous intersection. And allowing traffic to proceed past a red-light is a privilege that should only be done with the utmost care and careful checking for cross-traffic. I think that merits a complete stop in most if not all cases.

BTW empirestate, I liked your comparison with the NYC Subways. Being a railroad buff, I am familiar with the history that led to the rule about pointing to the "conductor's board" before opening the doors at each station-stop. But can you imagine trying to enforce such a rule with people driving cars who are far less disciplined than railroad employees who are indoctrinated in rigid adherence to their rulebook?

A signal usually indicates traffic volumes during peak periods, not anything about intersection safety or traffic volumes off-peak necessarily. It can also indicate an arterial regardless of volume. In most cases, RTOR is perfectly safe and there are sufficient sightlines to do so without stopping. I would argue to use a flashing red arrow instead of flashing yellow, though. But I dislike FYAs.

[SignBridge]

Alps, I guess you've never been to Nassau County, Long Island where the traffic on our main roads is heavy all day long. Another factor I should have mentioned is that when making a RTOR, the cross-traffic has a green-light which gives them absolute right-of-way over vehicles facing a red light. That legal fact alone is enough to mandate a complete stop in most cases, in my opinion.

And cl94, those rolling-stops are not just a Buffalo problem, but probably nationwide. Here on Long Island many drivers see a stop sign or red light (re: RTOR) as just a casual suggestion. LOL

[empirestate]

BTW empirestate, I liked your comparison with the NYC Subways. Being a railroad buff, I am familiar with the history that led to the rule about pointing to the "conductor's board" before opening the doors at each station-stop. But can you imagine trying to enforce such a rule with people driving cars who are far less disciplined than railroad employees who are indoctrinated in rigid adherence to their rulebook?

No, but I can imagine a world in which people driving cars are closer in discipline to railroad employees, or else they don't get to do it.

[Alps]

Alps, I guess you've never been to Nassau County, Long Island where the traffic on our main roads is heavy all day long. Another factor I should have mentioned is that when making a RTOR, the cross-traffic has a green-light which gives them absolute right-of-way over vehicles facing a red light. That legal fact alone is enough to mandate a complete stop in most cases, in my opinion.

And cl94, those rolling-stops are not just a Buffalo problem, but probably nationwide. Here on Long Island many drivers see a stop sign or red light (re: RTOR) as just a casual suggestion. LOL

No, I've never been to Nassau County. In fact, I live in my backyard.

Why do you feel the need to denigrate me to make your point? Anyway, you're wrong, because there are plenty of places in Nassau County where there is plenty of opportunity to turn right on red.

[Duke87]

In most cases, RTOR is perfectly safe and there are sufficient sightlines to do so without stopping. I would argue to use a flashing red arrow instead of flashing yellow, though. But I dislike FYAs.

But a flashing red light explicitly means "stop", equivalent to a stop sign. The reason for using flashing yellow is to permit the movement without a full stop.

Though yes, flashing yellow arrows do have the problem of being unintuitive since their meaning ("yield") is inconsistent with that of a flashing yellow ball ("caution").

[froggie]

But a flashing red light explicitly means "stop", equivalent to a stop sign. The reason for using flashing yellow is to permit the movement without a full stop.

Applicable to left turns against opposing traffic...FAR less applicable to right turns unless turning traffic gets its own lane or turning right onto the side road at a T-intersection.

In either case, it's still far safer for all modes involved to require a stop before the turn.

[kalvado]

But a flashing red light explicitly means "stop", equivalent to a stop sign. The reason for using flashing yellow is to permit the movement without a full stop.

Applicable to left turns against opposing traffic...FAR less applicable to right turns unless turning traffic gets its own lane or turning right onto the side road at a T-intersection.

In either case, it's still far safer for all modes involved to require a stop before the turn.

But 5 second is still an overkill..

[dgolub]

Alps, I guess you've never been to Nassau County, Long Island where the traffic on our main roads is heavy all day long. Another factor I should have mentioned is that when making a RTOR, the cross-traffic has a green-light which gives them absolute right-of-way over vehicles facing a red light. That legal fact alone is enough to mandate a complete stop in most cases, in my opinion.

And cl94, those rolling-stops are not just a Buffalo problem, but probably nationwide. Here on Long Island many drivers see a stop sign or red light (re: RTOR) as just a casual suggestion. LOL

No, I've never been to Nassau County. In fact, I live in my backyard.

Why do you feel the need to denigrate me to make your point? Anyway, you're wrong, because there are plenty of places in Nassau County where there is plenty of opportunity to turn right on red.

Yeah, I grew up in Nassau County, and it's definitely not as congested as NYC.  I never had to go out to Suffolk to turn right on red.

[SignBridge]

My apologies to Alps, if I "sounded" sarcastic or denigrating. That was definitely not my intent. I was only trying to say that even some suburban areas are congested during the middle of the day, not just during rush-hours.

Also I wasn't suggesting that we shouldn't necessarily have RTOR in Nassau, only that I agree that a full-stop is necessary to adequately observe and yield to cross traffic that has the right-of-way.

Happy Holidays to all!  

[froggie]

But 5 second is still an overkill..

5 seconds is a rounding error given the length of most trips.  It's not going to kill you...

[kalvado]

But 5 second is still an overkill..

5 seconds is a rounding error given the length of most trips.  It's not going to kill you...

5 seconds means that, with associated waits for right-of-way traffic, you're looking at no more than 1 car per cycle makes RTOR. At which point it is probably easier to ban it altogether. Single traffic light wait  is a rounding error given the length of most trips.  It's not going to kill you...
However, I am more concerned about delay accumulation. Added right turning traffic during the green cycle may delay thrugh and left traffic - and at some point that added traffic can make a difference between LOS D and LOS F.  Depends on lane configuration and few other things.
But at some level I agree with you - roundabouts, which are essentially mandatory RTOR layout, are a bad idea in most cases.

[MikeCL]

A HAWK pedestrian crossing popped up at NY 324 and Logan Ave. in Tonawanda (between Ted's and Anderson's). I don't remember seeing it two weeks ago. Lots of honking horns as drivers try to figure out what to do during the flashing red phase.

I think they have these in downtown Stamford, CT it's a 3 light setup with two at the top and one under it? The flashing means to proceed if clear correct?


iPhone

[SignBridge]

I do not understand the purpose of a HAWK signal vs. a standard traffic signal, except maybe to save money. I've never seen one except in the Manual and I think they will cause more confusion and possibly more accidents as a result. 

[kalvado]

I do not understand the purpose of a HAWK signal vs. a standard traffic signal, except maybe to save money. I've never seen one except in the Manual and I think they will cause more confusion and possibly more accidents as a result. 

Less light on time - less power consumption, less maintenance. No "stop and wait no matter what" requirement - higher throughput, you may go through if nobody is in crosswalk. Less of a problem in case of shorted button - road still active.

for 2-lane roads, I think button/motion activated flashers on crosswalk signs are equally efficient. I don't remember seeing them on 4-lane 55 MPH roads, though, not sure if they have enough visibility distance.

[hotdogPi]

I don't remember seeing them on 4-lane 55 MPH roads, though, not sure if they have enough visibility distance.

There's one on MA 114 for Merrimack College, which is 4 lanes. (It has a 45 mph speed limit, though.)

[cl94]

I don't remember seeing them on 4-lane 55 MPH roads, though, not sure if they have enough visibility distance.

There's one on MA 114 for Merrimack College, which is 4 lanes. (It has a 45 mph speed limit, though.)

NY 324 in Tonawanda. 6 lanes. That one has just enough pedestrian traffic to mess things up quite a bit.

[Roadgeek Adam]

I don't remember seeing them on 4-lane 55 MPH roads, though, not sure if they have enough visibility distance.

There's one on MA 114 for Merrimack College, which is 4 lanes. (It has a 45 mph speed limit, though.)

NY 324 in Tonawanda. 6 lanes. That one has just enough pedestrian traffic to mess things up quite a bit.

And the funs of watching idiots dealing with it.

[MikeCL]

A HAWK pedestrian crossing popped up at NY 324 and Logan Ave. in Tonawanda (between Ted's and Anderson's). I don't remember seeing it two weeks ago. Lots of honking horns as drivers try to figure out what to do during the flashing red phase.

I think they have these in downtown Stamford, CT it's a 3 light setup with two at the top and one under it? The flashing means to proceed if clear correct?


iPhone

Yep now that I'm home and just googled it Stamford has the same HAWK signal set up.. anyone have what the signals mean? They have it on the pole but I guess it's for the people crossing  I've been wanting to check it out but not enough to park and go walk and check it out


iPhone