New York

[vdeane]

What would be the feasibility of doing ORT at the existing Williamsville barrier, similar to what was done for Woodbury?  Granted, I-290 might complicate things.  I don't remember ORT even being considered for Lackawanna or the Grand Island bridges.  Ripley and Canan are less of an issue due to lower traffic.

[cl94]

Nowhere to put it on Grand Island. Toll booths are too close to the bridge for the merge to be safe.

As far as current Williamsville, again no space. You'd need to give up at least 4 current toll lanes for just one ORT lane in each direction. Being as they typically use 3 lanes at the moment for E-ZPass except during overnight hours (1 EB, 2 WB), it would be a net loss that would eliminate the gains from the additional cash lane they just added. Plus, one of the current E-ZPass lanes has no booth, so it's restricted to E-ZPass only. Can't widen anything because the plaza is already up against the noise walls.

Woodbury only worked because they generally had at least 6 E-ZPass lanes at any given time, which happens to be how much space they needed for 4 ORT lanes. In terms of space assigned for each mode, there's probably more assigned to cash on average now than there were before ORT even with losing 6 toll lanes for ORT.

[Alps]

All this talk of the Buffalo area has raised a question - It's fairly common knowledge that the best route from, say, New Jersey to Buffalo involves taking I-390 and cutting a diagonal toward the Thruway. Was a freeway ever proposed for this corridor? Is there justification to provide some sort of diagonal improved road here?

[cl94]

All this talk of the Buffalo area has raised a question - It's fairly common knowledge that the best route from, say, New Jersey to Buffalo involves taking I-390 and cutting a diagonal toward the Thruway. Was a freeway ever proposed for this corridor? Is there justification to provide some sort of diagonal improved road here?

Yes. There have been proposals. Genesee County is very opposed to any improvements, while Wyoming County wants one to increase traffic (and thus business) through the area. Is there justification? Certainly. Heavy truck traffic (40-60%) that is only increasing. It's a good 15-20+ minutes faster than using existing expressways. I use this corridor quite often if I'm traveling between Albany and my parents in Buffalo and don't feel like paying a toll and there's always a constant stream of cars in both directions. Do we need a full freeway per se? Probably not. But a super-2 along the US 20A corridor with an alternating passing lane would do wonders.

A study was done several years ago and I have no idea if anything ever came from it. As of now, the only improvements to the corridor have been a minor realignment near Wyoming CR 16 and installation of flashing warning signs along US 20 west of NY 63.
https://www.dot.ny.gov/regional-offices/region4/projects/route63-corridor-study

[Michael]

I just saw this on my Facebook News Feed:

WHEC - Cashless tolls are back on the table in Upstate

[Duke87]

If the issue is low E-Zpass adoption in Western NY, would it perhaps make sense to break the current main ticket system in two?

Find the easternmost exit along the I-90 section of the Thruway where E-Zpass usage drops below some threshold that's deemed viable for cashless tolling. Build a new toll plaza where customers can take a ticket/pay cash between that and the next exit to the east. Implement cashless east/south of there. Though, the need to build a new toll plaza will hurt the economics of this idea.



But yeah, if E-Zpass usage rates in WNY are really as low as 50%, I agree that the cash lanes need to remain in place until that goes up significantly. NYSTA is going to need to work on enticing more people to sign up for E-Zpass before it really makes sense over there.

[kalvado]

Very simple: E-ZPass usage rates. Usage rates in Western New York are well under 50%. Downstate, they're around 90% Because of that, there's no benefit to any changeover. They'd be mailing bills to the majority of users. Plus, any changes to the main ticket system must happen at once.

Until people in Western New York start getting E-ZPass, there's no reason to introduce cashless tolling.

BTW, how old that "below 50%" data is?
I am looking at 2016 data, and exit 50 has 63% ezpass usage, 61% for exit 55 - well, still lower compared to 69.6% for exit 24...

[cl94]

Very simple: E-ZPass usage rates. Usage rates in Western New York are well under 50%. Downstate, they're around 90% Because of that, there's no benefit to any changeover. They'd be mailing bills to the majority of users. Plus, any changes to the main ticket system must happen at once.

Until people in Western New York start getting E-ZPass, there's no reason to introduce cashless tolling.

BTW, how old that "below 50%" data is?
I am looking at 2016 data, and exit 50 has 63% ezpass usage, 61% for exit 55 - well, still lower compared to 69.6% for exit 24...

2015. And that doesn't include the Grand Island bridges. Once those go, you'll be hearing it from the groups trying to attract tourists because of how the rental car companies slap a fee on top of the camera charge.

[kalvado]

Very simple: E-ZPass usage rates. Usage rates in Western New York are well under 50%. Downstate, they're around 90% Because of that, there's no benefit to any changeover. They'd be mailing bills to the majority of users. Plus, any changes to the main ticket system must happen at once.

Until people in Western New York start getting E-ZPass, there's no reason to introduce cashless tolling.

BTW, how old that "below 50%" data is?
I am looking at 2016 data, and exit 50 has 63% ezpass usage, 61% for exit 55 - well, still lower compared to 69.6% for exit 24...

2015. And that doesn't include the Grand Island bridges. Once those go, you'll be hearing it from the groups trying to attract tourists because of how the rental car companies slap a fee on top of the camera charge.

Well, mainline Thruway can do anything - and that wouldn't affect logistics of Grand Island....
As for camera surcharges - that is definitely one big reason why I think AET in its present form is a disaster. 

[D-Dey65]

Okay, re: the Wantagh Parkway again. It was built in 1938 and Long island was rural back then, so just maybe there was so little traffic that a grade crossing would have been considered realistic. Next time I drive that road, I will check if the potential crossing is still visible but I don't know how it could be. The Parkway was repaved with asphalt over the original concrete in about 1977. And it badly needs repaving again now, as that 40 year-old asphalt is falling apart.

There's a bike trail next to it. Any chance you could use that?

[Alps]

Very simple: E-ZPass usage rates. Usage rates in Western New York are well under 50%. Downstate, they're around 90% Because of that, there's no benefit to any changeover. They'd be mailing bills to the majority of users. Plus, any changes to the main ticket system must happen at once.

Until people in Western New York start getting E-ZPass, there's no reason to introduce cashless tolling.

BTW, how old that "below 50%" data is?
I am looking at 2016 data, and exit 50 has 63% ezpass usage, 61% for exit 55 - well, still lower compared to 69.6% for exit 24...

2015. And that doesn't include the Grand Island bridges. Once those go, you'll be hearing it from the groups trying to attract tourists because of how the rental car companies slap a fee on top of the camera charge.

Well, mainline Thruway can do anything - and that wouldn't affect logistics of Grand Island....
As for camera surcharges - that is definitely one big reason why I think AET in its present form is a disaster. 

The rental car model is a disaster. They should charge a flat fee of $5 for the entire rental period if you use their tag, and that's it. It's extortion right now.

[kalvado]

The rental car model is a disaster. They should charge a flat fee of $5 for the entire rental period if you use their tag, and that's it. It's extortion right now.

it is not about rental, I am afraid. I would say this is about "they don't vote here" approach - out-of-state plates can also mean problems. Overcharging and fining those out of area is so easy. Both toll agencies and rental companies are at fault. Local governments also love to bite that cake...
Illinois model of being able to pre-pay online at a reasonable rate is a step forward - but only a small step I would say. Some uniform regulations could help - but mandate for toll tags interoperability was successfully ignored, so I don't hold my breath.

[froggie]

When it comes to the rental car companies, I agree with Alps.  It's extortion on the rental companies part, pure and simple.

One alternative for the customer, as the system currently exists, is to use their own EZPass (if they have one) in a rental vehicle.  I recently did this and had no problems.

One complication regarding "out of state plates" and rental cars is that you can still have a local who's stuck with out of state plates.  In my EZPass example above, I had a rental vehicle for almost a month with Pennsylvania plates, despite the fact that I both picked up and dropped off the rental vehicle in northern Vermont.  I can't imagine this is an isolated situation.

[kalvado]

When it comes to the rental car companies, I agree with Alps.  It's extortion on the rental companies part, pure and simple.

One alternative for the customer, as the system currently exists, is to use their own EZPass (if they have one) in a rental vehicle.  I recently did this and had no problems.

One complication regarding "out of state plates" and rental cars is that you can still have a local who's stuck with out of state plates.  In my EZPass example above, I had a rental vehicle for almost a month with Pennsylvania plates, despite the fact that I both picked up and dropped off the rental vehicle in northern Vermont.  I can't imagine this is an isolated situation.

"Use your EZpass" is a good argument - IF nationwide tags would also be available for pickup in Mexico and Canada.
As it stands right now, I kept getting Florida tolls on my card for 3 or 4 months after the trip. God forbids I had to change that card for any reason. NY EZpass is  useless in FL..
And I suspect nothing would change until some federal thumbscrews are applied to local officials. Money from non-voters are a true free lunch!

[vdeane]

I wouldn't be surprised if the rental terms were originally set with the idea that it was a premium service and charged accordingly, back when cash was still king with toll plazas and transponders were mainly a convenience for commuters and frequent users.  These days, transponders are king in many areas, but of course the rental terms are the same because the rental car companies don't want to give up a cash cow.

[PHLBOS]

When it comes to the rental car companies, I agree with Alps.  It's extortion on the rental companies part, pure and simple.

One alternative for the customer, as the system currently exists, is to use their own EZPass (if they have one) in a rental vehicle.  I recently did this and had no problems.

The key stipulation in your above-statement is (if they have one).  At present, only 16 states have E-ZPass and that number does not include states that have their own independent electronic tolling system (Florida's SunPass for example, which does not recognize E-ZPass accounts (my brother found that out the hard way a few years ago)).

A real-world scenario would be if a visitor from a non-E-ZPass state (& has no need to have an E-ZPass account) flies into a city and rents a car at or near the airport.  If they have to use an all-AET facility in their travels (& a toll-free alternative route is not easily available/accessible); they're still basically at the mercy of the rental car company in terms of (exorbitant) charges & fees.

[Duke87]

A real-world scenario would be if a visitor from a non-E-ZPass state (& has no need to have an E-ZPass account) flies into a city and rents a car at or near the airport.  If they have to use an all-AET facility in their travels (& a toll-free alternative route is not easily available/accessible); they're still basically at the mercy of the rental car company in terms of (exorbitant) charges & fees.

This doesn't necessarily help you if your trip is on short notice, but if you have the foresight you can always sign up for a local tag from the place you're going in advance of the trip.

Of course, the percentage of non-roadgeeks who think of this is probably small.

[kalvado]

A real-world scenario would be if a visitor from a non-E-ZPass state (& has no need to have an E-ZPass account) flies into a city and rents a car at or near the airport.  If they have to use an all-AET facility in their travels (& a toll-free alternative route is not easily available/accessible); they're still basically at the mercy of the rental car company in terms of (exorbitant) charges & fees.

This doesn't necessarily help you if your trip is on short notice, but if you have the foresight you can always sign up for a local tag from the place you're going in advance of the trip.

Of course, the percentage of non-roadgeeks who think of this is probably small.

SO I need to get Sunpass tag for $15 or $25, and again end up paying 3x tolls? Yes, I may reuse tag next time.. if I choose to return. But you know, Aruba doesn't have any toll roads, and in general much less of a hassle.

[PHLBOS]

One complication regarding "out of state plates" and rental cars is that you can still have a local who's stuck with out of state plates.  In my EZPass example above, I had a rental vehicle for almost a month with Pennsylvania plates, despite the fact that I both picked up and dropped off the rental vehicle in northern Vermont.  I can't imagine this is an isolated situation.

It isn't.  I've rented vehicles in Massachusetts that had Virginia or Georgia plates; and one time, while in Pittsburgh, the rental vehicle I used had California plates on it.

That said, I don't see how having an out-of-state plate on a rental would make a difference regarding which E-ZPass toll rate is applied.  The transponders the rental car agencies offer would likely be from the state where one picks up/drops off the car; not what state license plate the vehicle has. 

The only issue I would see regarding rentals & transponders would be if one was doing a one-way rental (i.e. dropping a vehicle off at a different location than where it was picked up).  Last year, I did such while renting a vehicle in central Massachusetts and dropping it off where I live in PA.  For the tolls, I just paid cash since I didn't want to go through the hassle of adding/deleting a rental vehicle on my E-ZPass account.

[vdeane]

I don't think rentals even USE regular transponders like E-ZPass.  The one time I had a rental, it had a proprietary "PlatePass" system, so its acceptance may be different.

[cl94]

I don't think rentals even USE regular transponders like E-ZPass.  The one time I had a rental, it had a proprietary "PlatePass" system, so its acceptance may be different.

The PlatePass box has an E-ZPass transponder if rented in the E-ZPass region. Don't open the box and the transponder won't be read.

In areas with AET, PlatePass activates automatically and the renter is charged the ridiculous service fees plus the cash toll rate. That right there is reason enough not to have AET in Buffalo given the region's heavily reliance on tourism.

[PHLBOS]

I don't think rentals even USE regular transponders like E-ZPass.  The one time I had a rental, it had a proprietary "PlatePass" system, so its acceptance may be different.

Such depends on the rental car agency & location.  One rental I had a few years ago (the facility was at an airport) actually had a transponder in the glove box; but using it (attaching it to the windshield) was subject to a fee so I left it in the glove box and paid cash for any tolls.

In areas with AET, PlatePass activates automatically and the renter is charged the ridiculous service fees plus the cash toll rate. That right there is reason enough not to have AET in Buffalo given the region's heavily reliance on tourism with no cash alternative at all.

FTFY. 

[kalvado]

In areas with AET, PlatePass activates automatically and the renter is charged the ridiculous service fees plus the cash toll rate. That right there is reason enough not to have AET in Buffalo given the region's heavily reliance on tourism with no cash alternative at all.

FTFY. 

I can see easy non-cash alternatives for visitors who want to pay without long-term commitments - like pay via Internet a-la Illinois, pay at kiosk - at gas station near exit (they would LOVE people stopping by and entering the store), rest area, PC at hotel lobby and so on.
Failure to pay can still go old style via rental company with surcharge.
FOr me it is more about local officials willing to make visitor's life easy - as opposed to collecting a bit of admin fees.

[PHLBOS]

I can see easy non-cash alternatives for visitors who want to pay without long-term commitments - like pay via Internet a-la Illinois, pay at kiosk - at gas station near exit (they would LOVE people stopping by and entering the store), rest area, PC at hotel lobby and so on.

I don't think what you described has been implemented on a grand scale as of yet.  AET is still fairly new in most regions.

[kalvado]

I can see easy non-cash alternatives for visitors who want to pay without long-term commitments - like pay via Internet a-la Illinois, pay at kiosk - at gas station near exit (they would LOVE people stopping by and entering the store), rest area, PC at hotel lobby and so on.

I don't think what you described has been implemented on a grand scale as of yet.  AET is still fairly new in most regions.

We're routinely discussing California-Hawaii interstates over here. Compared to that, relatively straightforward payment system should be seen as cheap and simple project barely worth any discussion!
On a serious note - I don't see a reason such add-ons to AET system cannot be implemented, assuming powers that be are interested in that. Moreover, I can see it as a precursor to nationwide toll interoperability, as we have tag compatibility issues - but license plates are more compatible.