New York

[webny99]

Looks like the SB Thruway at I-787 was a major choke point today. As I've complained in the past, it's too bad they didn't continue the six lanes down to NY 17.

FTFY

Granted, it needs it. But given that won't happen in the near-term, the Berkshire Spur seems like a lot more logical spot for a lane drop than I-787.

[kalvado]

Looks like the SB Thruway at I-787 was a major choke point today. As I've complained in the past, it's too bad they didn't continue the six lanes down to NY 17.

FTFY

Granted, it needs it. But given that won't happen in the near-term, the Berkshire Spur seems like a lot more logical spot for a lane drop than I-787.

I would disagree.
There is a lot  commuter traffic on 787.  Albany (area, not city) grows west and north, a bit to the east - but very little commuter traffic goes south. So 200 days a year that lane drop at 787 is perfectly meaningful. Large traffic to NYC on summer weekends - 25 days a year, maybe - falls into <10% category. What you saw is a twice a year rush, with long weekend traffic towards NYC going out of scale.
Berkshire connector sees much less traffic - official numbers are 14-15k, and I would bet mostly truck (official numbers show only 10% trucks, but those are not too consistent). When I happen to drive there, I barely see any traffic in connector.  I assume only a small fraction of weekend traffic goes there. Adirondacks or finger lakes are not the hot spot for Boston or Hartford,  and Albany beach traffic likely uses free I-90...

[froggie]

^ His point was there's enough of a typical traffic drop at the Berkshire Spur to where it would make the next logical termini for a Thruway widening.  Sure, it may only see 14-15K, but the vast majority of that 14-15K is coming from the north.

[cl94]

Eh, I see LOS D or worse more often than not during daylight hours between Harriman and Albany. Weekends, it's often LOS E over that stretch with recurrent morning/evening congestion south of Kingston. One little fender bender shouldn't cause a 20 mile backup, yet that's what happens on the Thruway south of Albany. The congestion this weekend wasn't "holiday weekend only", it is MOST weekends. Some states would widen for weekend tourist traffic (see: Colorado and I-70 west of Denver). An extra lane south of Albany would definitely not hurt and ~50K is where most agencies would widen. Heck, the Ohio Turnpike has generally 6-laned anything with an AADT over 30K! Surely a toll facility should provide better traffic flow than a free facility. NY is lacking here.

I'd be willing to bet that a widening south of Kingston would have the side benefit of taking some traffic off of US 9W. That's where a lot of people (myself included) bail to if flow is remotely unstable. If I'm gonna be stop and go, may as well not pay a toll for doing so.

[kalvado]

^ His point was there's enough of a typical traffic drop at the Berkshire Spur to where it would make the next logical termini for a Thruway widening.  Sure, it may only see 14-15K, but the vast majority of that 14-15K is coming from the north.

Not sure about that, especially for holiday traffic. As I mentioned, that stretch really feels desolate pretty much every time I drive there - people don't really use that, even when Masspikje traffic is good. For me the prime reason to use Berkshire connector is to bypass commute or road work on free I-90. None of those are an issue on Labor day. In particular, backup on 787 interchange should trigger free I-90 routing on most navigators.

Problem of Berkshire bypass is that it adds extra toll AND (in most cases)  extra mileage for Albany (except some south Albany and Delmar) and points to the west or north. Nice idea it bypass the city, but often no real reason for that

[kalvado]

Eh, I see LOS D or worse more often than not during daylight hours between Harriman and Albany. Weekends, it's often LOS E over that stretch with recurrent morning/evening congestion south of Kingston. One little fender bender shouldn't cause a 20 mile backup, yet that's what happens on the Thruway south of Albany. The congestion this weekend wasn't "holiday weekend only", it is MOST weekends. Some states would widen for weekend tourist traffic (see: Colorado and I-70 west of Denver). An extra lane south of Albany would definitely not hurt and ~50K is where most agencies would widen. Heck, the Ohio Turnpike has generally 4-laned anything with an AADT over 30K! Surely a toll facility should provide better traffic flow than a free facility. NY is lacking here.

I'd be willing to bet that a widening south of Kingston would have the side benefit of taking some traffic off of US 9W. That's where a lot of people (myself included) bail to if flow is remotely unstable. If I'm gonna be stop and go, may as well not pay a toll for doing so.

That is @Alps' point - either 6-lane all the way, or an extra exit of 6-lane highway is just a feel-good. While we all know what would work best, I doubt  Thruway is going to have resources for that as everything went towards Daddy's Bridge.

[vdeane]

Eh, I see LOS D or worse more often than not during daylight hours between Harriman and Albany. Weekends, it's often LOS E over that stretch with recurrent morning/evening congestion south of Kingston. One little fender bender shouldn't cause a 20 mile backup, yet that's what happens on the Thruway south of Albany. The congestion this weekend wasn't "holiday weekend only", it is MOST weekends. Some states would widen for weekend tourist traffic (see: Colorado and I-70 west of Denver). An extra lane south of Albany would definitely not hurt and ~50K is where most agencies would widen. Heck, the Ohio Turnpike has generally 4-laned anything with an AADT over 30K! Surely a toll facility should provide better traffic flow than a free facility. NY is lacking here.

I'd be willing to bet that a widening south of Kingston would have the side benefit of taking some traffic off of US 9W. That's where a lot of people (myself included) bail to if flow is remotely unstable. If I'm gonna be stop and go, may as well not pay a toll for doing so.

This year, it seemed to be that way the whole system.  I haven't had a drive from Rochester to Albany where there wasn't some section of stop and go (or worse, completely stopped) even though such used to be rare on the portion I travel.

[webny99]

There is a lot  commuter traffic on 787.  Albany (area, not city) grows west and north, a bit to the east - but very little commuter traffic goes south. So 200 days a year that lane drop at 787 is perfectly meaningful.

Looking at it on a map, I would assume I-787 contributes to the southbound Thruway. Since there's limited sprawl to the south, maybe it's closer to break-even. That's still not an ideal spot for a lane drop when traffic getting on roughly equals traffic getting off.

^ His point was there's enough of a typical traffic drop at the Berkshire Spur to where it would make the next logical termini for a Thruway widening.  Sure, it may only see 14-15K, but the vast majority of that 14-15K is coming from the north.

Yep, exactly. I-787 isn't a major net contributor one way or the other, but there's a significant southbound net loss, and northbound net gain, at the Berkshire Spur.

[webny99]

The congestion this weekend wasn't "holiday weekend only", it is MOST weekends. Some states would widen for weekend tourist traffic (see: Colorado and I-70 west of Denver).

I don't think it's just weekends. Sure, Friday and Sunday afternoons are worst, but it's really needed throughout the entire summer season. Some of the worst Thruway traffic I've seen has been on Saturdays, and truck traffic is heaviest on weekdays.

Heck, the Ohio Turnpike has generally 4-laned anything with an AADT over 30K! Surely a toll facility should provide better traffic flow than a free facility. NY is lacking here.

Very much agree with that. The Thruway bridges are all built for six lanes anyways, so why not pave and stripe the lane for a better traveler experience? Seems like a no-brainer to me. Yet there's a systemic failure to acknowledge that congestion can and does occur north of the Catskills. New York probably has the least rural six lane highways of any state; yet it is truly baffling when you see that we have more existing bridges with capacity for such than any other state!

[Rothman]

I've been commuting weekly to Syracuse from Albany for a while now (coming back to Albany on weekends).  The traffic on the Thruway has been more than tolerable.  The only slower part has been between Syracuse and NY 13 on the way back on Fridays and it isn't that much of a slowdown.

Now that left-hand merge from I-690 EB to I-481 NB on the other hand is just a little dicey.

[webny99]

This year, it seemed to be that way the whole system.  I haven't had a drive from Rochester to Albany where there wasn't some section of stop and go (or worse, completely stopped) even though such used to be rare on the portion I travel.

It seems like Rochester to Syracuse is becoming worse than Rochester to Buffalo these days.
There was simply no end of slowdowns and delays between Exit 44 and Exit 39 this past weekend. It's to the point where the single-lane on-ramp from I-490 is the only restraint preventing backups at the Exit 44 lane drop. Similarly, I can only imagine westbound traffic getting worse during & after the State Fair once they remove the infamous traffic signal and I-690 traffic can flow unrestrained onto the Thruway.

[webny99]

I've been commuting weekly to Syracuse from Albany for a while now (coming back to Albany on weekends).  The traffic on the Thruway has been more than tolerable.  The only slower part has been between Syracuse and NY 13 on the way back on Fridays and it isn't that much of a slowdown.

Yeah, I personally would say that Syracuse to I-88 is one of the lower priorities, and of that, I-481 to NY 365 is really the only segment that needs widening.

Now that left-hand merge from I-690 EB to I-481 NB on the other hand is just a little dicey.

Congestion, lack of merge lane, or both?

[Rothman]

Not really congestion, more like people travelling at inconsistent speeds on I-481.  Makes things a little interesting.

[MNHighwayMan]

New York probably has the least rural six lane highways of any state

I bet the Dakotas have less.

[hotdogPi]

New York probably has the least rural six lane highways of any state

I bet the Dakotas have less.

I was thinking Rhode Island.

[signalman]

New York probably has the least rural six lane highways of any state

I bet the Dakotas have less.

I immediately thought of Wyoming.  I can't think of anything that's 6 lanes there.

[MNHighwayMan]

New York probably has the least rural six lane highways of any state

I bet the Dakotas have less.

I immediately thought of Wyoming.  I can't think of anything that's 6 lanes there.

I was hesitant to suggest mountain states due to the possibility of truck or acceleration lanes on grades. I figured the safest bet was the least populated, relatively flat states.

[froggie]

New York probably has the least rural six lane highways of any state

I bet the Dakotas have less.

Vermont says hi...we don't even have URBAN 6-lane highways...

[webny99]

New York probably has the least rural six lane highways of any state

I bet the Dakotas have less.

Vermont says hi...we don't even have URBAN 6-lane highways...

OK, of any state with both true rural areas AND several significant population centers (250k +).

Also, unlike the Dakotas, Wyoming, Vermont, Rhode Island, etc., the Thruway literally has more bridges than you can count sitting there with space for an extra lane. Some states are actually designating funding for widening projects, while NYSTA wouldn't even have to do that, hardly. A Thruway widening would probably be the cheapest interstate widening in US history.

[kalvado]

New York probably has the least rural six lane highways of any state

I bet the Dakotas have less.

Vermont says hi...we don't even have URBAN 6-lane highways...

OK, of any state with both true rural areas AND several significant population centers (250k +).

Also, unlike the Dakotas, Wyoming, Vermont, Rhode Island, etc., the Thruway literally has more bridges than you can count sitting there with space for an extra lane. Some states are actually designating funding for widening projects, while NYSTA wouldn't even have to do that, hardly. A Thruway widening would probably be the cheapest interstate widening in US history.

Thruway has Daddy's bridge as a monster money sink. AET transition will not be free as well. 

Besides, road is getting old. When they widened Albany section, there was a full rebuilt with old pavement ripped down all the way to dirt. I suspect real widening would have to follow the same pattern as well.
Not to mention that unlike Mohawk valley section, Hudson valley part goes through some rocky areas where significant blasting may be required....

[froggie]

New York probably has the least rural six lane highways of any state

I bet the Dakotas have less.

Vermont says hi...we don't even have URBAN 6-lane highways...

OK, of any state with both true rural areas AND several significant population centers (250k +).

You're moving the goalposts...😌

Also, unlike the Dakotas, Wyoming, Vermont, Rhode Island, etc., the Thruway literally has more bridges than you can count sitting there with space for an extra lane. Some states are actually designating funding for widening projects, while NYSTA wouldn't even have to do that, hardly. A Thruway widening would probably be the cheapest interstate widening in US history.

I agree with Kalvado.  A Thruway widening basically anywhere east of about Utica would require a fair bit of blasting, and especially south of Albany.

[Rothman]

New York probably has the least rural six lane highways of any state

I bet the Dakotas have less.

Vermont says hi...we don't even have URBAN 6-lane highways...

OK, of any state with both true rural areas AND several significant population centers (250k +).

You're moving the goalposts...

Also, unlike the Dakotas, Wyoming, Vermont, Rhode Island, etc., the Thruway literally has more bridges than you can count sitting there with space for an extra lane. Some states are actually designating funding for widening projects, while NYSTA wouldn't even have to do that, hardly. A Thruway widening would probably be the cheapest interstate widening in US history.

I agree with Kalvado.  A Thruway widening basically anywhere east of about Utica would require a fair bit of blasting, and especially south of Albany.

Also keep in mind the grades around Little Falls.  Check out how the ramps were built for that interchange, now for a community for which no one knows why it exists.

[webny99]

New York probably has the least rural six lane highways of any state

I bet the Dakotas have less.

Vermont says hi...we don't even have URBAN 6-lane highways...

OK, of any state with both true rural areas AND several significant population centers (250k +).

You're moving the goalposts...😌

True, only to exclude the states that don't have the population to be relevant to the six-laning discussion in the first place.

A Thruway widening basically anywhere east of about Utica would require a fair bit of blasting, and especially south of Albany.

I think we've established that it's not needed east of Utica anyways. I'm not as familiar with the stretch south of Albany, but I can't identify any big issues offhand; it's relatively flat, with room for two more lanes in the median. And of course, there are zero barriers to widening between Buffalo and Syracuse.

[vdeane]

This is a good example for the Albany-Harriman section.  Narrower median, more rock cuts, steeper grades, etc.  It's only really flat north of exit 21B.

[webny99]

This is a good example for the Albany-Harriman section.  Narrower median, more rock cuts, steeper grades, etc.  It's only really flat north of exit 21B.

Maybe I'm naive, but it looks to me like striping for a third lane is literally all that's needed at that particular point. It's definitely a narrower median and more rock cuts than I'm used to seeing, but isn't there's still enough room in the median without having to go outwards? Especially if the guide rail was replaced with a Jersey barrier; the bridge over NY 94 is another prime example of a re-striping being all that's needed.