New York

[empirestate]

Spotted something interesting today: someone has put up a hand-written sign here reminding drivers that travel is prohibited on the shoulder. (It goes on to say that it can sometimes be fatal, and to please obey the traffic signal, so it presumably refers to a specific accident.)

Indeed, illegal use of the shoulder is rampant throughout this part of the state–and I don't mean carefully creeping around someone waiting to turn left in heavy traffic when you're obviously going to be there a while. I mean aiming straight for the shoulder by default, without even breaking speed, as soon as someone turns on their blinker on even a completely clear road. (It's also not unusual, though less common, to see drivers cross a sold yellow line to pass someone turning right. In general, drivers tend not to have a Plan B for if someone ahead of them makes a turn...)

The most striking thing about this sign, to me, was that there's a second person in the world who's even aware of this rule! :-)

[Alps]

Spotted something interesting today: someone has put up a hand-written sign here reminding drivers that travel is prohibited on the shoulder. (It goes on to say that it can sometimes be fatal, and to please obey the traffic signal, so it presumably refers to a specific accident.)

Indeed, illegal use of the shoulder is rampant throughout this part of the state–and I don't mean carefully creeping around someone waiting to turn left in heavy traffic when you're obviously going to be there a while. I mean aiming straight for the shoulder by default, without even breaking speed, as soon as someone turns on their blinker on even a completely clear road. (It's also not unusual, though less common, to see drivers cross a sold yellow line to pass someone turning right. In general, drivers tend not to have a Plan B for if someone ahead of them makes a turn...)

The most striking thing about this sign, to me, was that there's a second person in the world who's even aware of this rule! :-)

I do that all the time, but it's legal to do so in my state

[empirestate]

I do that all the time, but it's legal to do so in my state

Yes, I assume not all states have this law, although I'm not sure how common it is overall. Have you found it leads to certain traffic conflicts, or are those eliminated because the behavior is legal and therefore expected?

[MATraveler128]

It's illegal in Massachusetts to pass on the shoulder. Though it is legal to pass in the shoulder on I-93 at certain times.

[hotdogPi]

It's illegal in Massachusetts to pass on the shoulder. Though it is legal to pass in the shoulder on I-93 at certain times.

The GSV link given was for a surface road, not a freeway.

That said, I'm not finding the sign in that link...

[D-Dey65]

I took a quick look as well, and found nothing. Most of the residential streets in the area have weight limits posted, but I am not sure if there are specific laws in any nearby municipality either.

Oh. I just thought there might've been some weak bridge along that road or something like that there.

[D-Dey65]

How many of you are familiar with the old restaurants on Saw Mill River Parkway? I took pictures of the old Leighton's/Woodlands Lake/La Cantina Restaurant in V.E. Macy Park back in November 2021, and I'm now trying to expand the Wikipedia article on Woodlands Lake which is in that park. But I just found out about Dugan's restaurant, and I can't find out where it was.

So, still no answers on this question yet?

[empirestate]

The GSV link given was for a surface road, not a freeway.

That said, I'm not finding the sign in that link...

No, it only just appeared. I tried to snap a photo of it today, but it didn't come out.

Close as I can recall, it reads:
"Driving on the shoulder is a VIOLATION and can be fatal. Please obey the signal."

It's stuck in the narrow grass strip between the sidewalk and the curb. Funny enough, not ten seconds after I took the photo, a car ahead of me veered onto the shoulder to get around a car making an unimpeded left turn in front of it. It really is an almost universally ignored statute.

[webny99]

The GSV link given was for a surface road, not a freeway.

That said, I'm not finding the sign in that link...

No, it only just appeared. I tried to snap a photo of it today, but it didn't come out.

Close as I can recall, it reads:
"Driving on the shoulder is a VIOLATION and can be fatal. Please obey the signal."

It's stuck in the narrow grass strip between the sidewalk and the curb. Funny enough, not ten seconds after I took the photo, a car ahead of me veered onto the shoulder to get around a car making an unimpeded left turn in front of it. It really is an almost universally ignored statute.

Interesting. I agree it must have been in response to a specific incident, because not driving on the shoulder is so universally ignored. What is the sign made of/supported by?

As for passing on the shoulder, take NY 286 for just one example:
1) Tree Brook Dr - note the potholes that have developed from the shoulder being used so heavily (and rightly so - traffic can back up badly if people don't)
2) Five Mile Line Rd - note again the heavily used shoulder, previously used by almost all through traffic (although this one has gotten much better with the new turn lane)
3) Baird Rd - shoulder has been intentionally widened to allow for passing on the shoulder
4) Millford Crossing - again, intentional widening to allow for passing

Given all that, it appears to me that NYSDOT is not only not actively discouraging use of the shoulder, but instead actively encouraging it (and investing zero resources to provide a better solution also counts as encouraging the use of the shoulder, as traffic benefits from using the shoulder to avoid delays)

[cockroachking]

I took a quick look as well, and found nothing. Most of the residential streets in the area have weight limits posted, but I am not sure if there are specific laws in any nearby municipality either.

Oh. I just thought there might've been some weak bridge along that road or something like that there.

Yeah, there are no bridges on Wilbur Blvd. I am sure that it is simply people not wanting trucks on their residential roads.

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

I saw somewhere in NYSDOT's Highway Design Manual that left turn bypasses weren't allowed (where the roadway is widened to allow passing but a turn lane isn't striped). I know of one in NY at Route 55 and Vail Rd in Poughkeepsie.

It functions fine and saves a lot of space versus a left turn lane with the proper width and tapers. I don't understand why they're against it. I'm sure the cost-benefit analysis works out with the reduction of rear-end crashes and better flow, even if the geometry isn't 100% optimal. Maybe it's some obscure legal interpretation of the VTL? Either way these shoulder widenings look like a sneaky loophole for this rule.

[Rothman]

The GSV link given was for a surface road, not a freeway.

That said, I'm not finding the sign in that link...

No, it only just appeared. I tried to snap a photo of it today, but it didn't come out.

Close as I can recall, it reads:
"Driving on the shoulder is a VIOLATION and can be fatal. Please obey the signal."

It's stuck in the narrow grass strip between the sidewalk and the curb. Funny enough, not ten seconds after I took the photo, a car ahead of me veered onto the shoulder to get around a car making an unimpeded left turn in front of it. It really is an almost universally ignored statute.

Interesting. I agree it must have been in response to a specific incident, because not driving on the shoulder is so universally ignored. What is the sign made of/supported by?

As for passing on the shoulder, take NY 286 for just one example:
1) Tree Brook Dr - note the potholes that have developed from the shoulder being used so heavily (and rightly so - traffic can back up badly if people don't)
2) Five Mile Line Rd - note again the heavily used shoulder, previously used by almost all through traffic (although this one has gotten much better with the new turn lane)
3) Baird Rd - shoulder has been intentionally widened to allow for passing on the shoulder
4) Millford Crossing - again, intentional widening to allow for passing

Given all that, it appears to me that NYSDOT is not only not actively discouraging use of the shoulder, but instead actively encouraging it (and investing zero resources to provide a better solution also counts as encouraging the use of the shoulder, as traffic benefits from using the shoulder to avoid delays)

That's the job of law enforcement, not NYSDOT.

[empirestate]

Interesting. I agree it must have been in response to a specific incident, because not driving on the shoulder is so universally ignored. What is the sign made of/supported by?

Stiff paper and wire. Or maybe that corrugated plastic sheeting. You know, just like those "AJ buys houses" signs.

Given all that, it appears to me that NYSDOT is not only not actively discouraging use of the shoulder, but instead actively encouraging it (and investing zero resources to provide a better solution also counts as encouraging the use of the shoulder, as traffic benefits from using the shoulder to avoid delays)

It was common to see the sheriff's deputies drive on the shoulder to skip the line at the red light on NY 441 near their substation on Linden Ave.

Around here, I've noticed no especial encouragement. Either the shoulders are already wide enough to accommodate travel, or the motorists are perfectly willing to run into the ditch to save–well, no time, actually. Indeed, the really glaring examples (and probably the most common) are those where there's no need at all. I don't think anybody minds, as I said, creeping around somebody turning left when there's a huge lineup. It's the bypassing at top speed, not even bothering to adjust for a turning vehicle ahead of you, that likely prompted this sign, because if you're not adjusting for the turning vehicle, you're also probably not adjusting for the pedestrians or crossing traffic (such as an opposing left turn) that might be in the shoulder you're heading for.

[seicer]

The state could go a little bit further and officially sanction them like Indiana does: https://goo.gl/maps/KhTf7w75QGdr41ox9

[webny99]

Given all that, it appears to me that NYSDOT is not only not actively discouraging use of the shoulder, but instead actively encouraging it (and investing zero resources to provide a better solution also counts as encouraging the use of the shoulder, as traffic benefits from using the shoulder to avoid delays)

That's the job of law enforcement, not NYSDOT.

Why would law enforcement enforce something that NYSDOT doesn't care about? The short answer is they don't.

The state could go a little bit further and officially sanction them like Indiana does: https://goo.gl/maps/KhTf7w75QGdr41ox9

I don't mind rumble strips, but they should be outside the white line like they are on freeways. It's obtuse to have them right on top of the line.

[webny99]

Around here, I've noticed no especial encouragement. Either the shoulders are already wide enough to accommodate travel, or the motorists are perfectly willing to run into the ditch to save–well, no time, actually. Indeed, the really glaring examples (and probably the most common) are those where there's no need at all. I don't think anybody minds, as I said, creeping around somebody turning left when there's a huge lineup. It's the bypassing at top speed, not even bothering to adjust for a turning vehicle ahead of you, that likely prompted this sign, because if you're not adjusting for the turning vehicle, you're also probably not adjusting for the pedestrians or crossing traffic (such as an opposing left turn) that might be in the shoulder you're heading for.

Actually, most of the examples that I can think of are at side streets. Most signalized intersections don't have shoulders wide enough for passing at high speeds, and those that do are usually used by traffic turning right, not going straight. Your Newburgh example is a bit unique in that regard because it also doesn't have a left turn lane.

The part I'm most curious about regarding the sign is the inclusion of "please obey the signal" at the end. I can't think of a scenario where using the shoulder would also mean ignoring the signal.

[Rothman]

Given all that, it appears to me that NYSDOT is not only not actively discouraging use of the shoulder, but instead actively encouraging it (and investing zero resources to provide a better solution also counts as encouraging the use of the shoulder, as traffic benefits from using the shoulder to avoid delays)

That's the job of law enforcement, not NYSDOT.

Why would law enforcement enforce something that NYSDOT doesn't care about? The short answer is they don't.

Because it's the law.

[webny99]

Given all that, it appears to me that NYSDOT is not only not actively discouraging use of the shoulder, but instead actively encouraging it (and investing zero resources to provide a better solution also counts as encouraging the use of the shoulder, as traffic benefits from using the shoulder to avoid delays)

That's the job of law enforcement, not NYSDOT.

Why would law enforcement enforce something that NYSDOT doesn't care about? The short answer is they don't.

Because it's the law.

I can see this is going nowhere. We all know it's not enforced, even though it technically could be.

[Rothman]

Given all that, it appears to me that NYSDOT is not only not actively discouraging use of the shoulder, but instead actively encouraging it (and investing zero resources to provide a better solution also counts as encouraging the use of the shoulder, as traffic benefits from using the shoulder to avoid delays)

That's the job of law enforcement, not NYSDOT.

Why would law enforcement enforce something that NYSDOT doesn't care about? The short answer is they don't.

Because it's the law.

I can see this is going nowhere. We all know it's not enforced, even though it technically could be.

A lack of enforcement of traffic regulations is not any DOT's problem.

DOTs control the purse strings and there is some oversight/enforcement along those lines, but once a project is built, it is squarely the job of law enforcement to enforce the law.

[webny99]

Given all that, it appears to me that NYSDOT is not only not actively discouraging use of the shoulder, but instead actively encouraging it (and investing zero resources to provide a better solution also counts as encouraging the use of the shoulder, as traffic benefits from using the shoulder to avoid delays)

That's the job of law enforcement, not NYSDOT.

Why would law enforcement enforce something that NYSDOT doesn't care about? The short answer is they don't.

Because it's the law.

I can see this is going nowhere. We all know it's not enforced, even though it technically could be.

A lack of enforcement of traffic regulations is not any DOT's problem.

DOTs control the purse strings and there is some oversight/enforcement along those lines, but once a project is built, it is squarely the job of law enforcement to enforce the law.

Yes, and I'm not disagreeing with that. My point is that neither NYSDOT nor law enforcement cares or has any incentive to care about people driving on the shoulder.

[Rothman]

Given all that, it appears to me that NYSDOT is not only not actively discouraging use of the shoulder, but instead actively encouraging it (and investing zero resources to provide a better solution also counts as encouraging the use of the shoulder, as traffic benefits from using the shoulder to avoid delays)

That's the job of law enforcement, not NYSDOT.

Why would law enforcement enforce something that NYSDOT doesn't care about? The short answer is they don't.

Because it's the law.

I can see this is going nowhere. We all know it's not enforced, even though it technically could be.

A lack of enforcement of traffic regulations is not any DOT's problem.

DOTs control the purse strings and there is some oversight/enforcement along those lines, but once a project is built, it is squarely the job of law enforcement to enforce the law.

Yes, and I'm not disagreeing with that. My point is that neither NYSDOT nor law enforcement cares or has any incentive to care about people driving on the shoulder.

Not sure why law enforcement doesn't.  Ticket revenue is ticket revenue.

[J N Winkler]

In Minnesota, bypass lanes are built out to the side and are explicitly signed as such (example on TH 23 just west of Milaca), though the signing may have more to do with heavy snow cover for much of the year.

It's been almost five years since I last drove in New York and I have never studied the Vehicle and Traffic Law before doing so, but Empirestate's example--a signalized intersection on NY 32 in an urban area--doesn't strike me as a safe location to use the shoulder as a bypass because of the potential for one vehicle waiting to turn left to hide another also waiting to do the same thing.

It seems to me that bypass lanes are to turn lanes what turnouts are to passing lanes--a parsimonious intermediate stage of provision between nothing and the full solution that some, but not all, state DOTs use.  In Kansas, for example, a rural intersection that is viewed as having turning volumes too high for safety (but does not otherwise justify a signal or roundabout) will typically be redeveloped with widening for hundreds of feet to provide not just turn lanes, but also full continuity of the paved shoulder and long lengths of painted island (if left turns are involved) to enhance sightlines (example on US 24 just east of Riley).  It strikes me as reasonable for NYSDOT to explicitly disallow bypass lanes and thereby force full build-out for the intersections that need them, though I realize this leads to practical difficulties (opposing the perfect to the good) when the interurban network of two-lane state highways is chronically underfunded.

[yakra]

Indeed, illegal use of the shoulder is rampant throughout this part of the state–and I don't mean carefully creeping around someone waiting to turn left in heavy traffic when you're obviously going to be there a while. I mean aiming straight for the shoulder by default, without even breaking speed, as soon as someone turns on their blinker on even a completely clear road.

Combine that with a salmoning cyclist.

[Rothman]

The cyclist salmons?

[yakra]

I mean, he'd flounder at the very least.