New York

[empirestate]

Actually, most of the examples that I can think of are at side streets. Most signalized intersections don't have shoulders wide enough for passing at high speeds, and those that do are usually used by traffic turning right, not going straight. Your Newburgh example is a bit unique in that regard because it also doesn't have a left turn lane.

Yes, same here, and I wonder if the location of this sign is something of a red herring? (I couldn't immediately find any recent fatal events reported at this intersection.) It's more likely to be mid-block, or if it is at a signal, it involves someone back in the line wanting to make a right on red.

The part I'm most curious about regarding the sign is the inclusion of "please obey the signal" at the end. I can't think of a scenario where using the shoulder would also mean ignoring the signal.

I'm not sure, unless it's something to do with right on red, as above.

Yes, and I'm not disagreeing with that. My point is that neither NYSDOT nor law enforcement cares or has any incentive to care about people driving on the shoulder.

Well, I think the whole takeaway here is that, according to whoever put up this sign, there is indeed (or should be) such an incentive, even if we haven't figured out exactly what. My assumption would be a conflict between a vehicle and a pedestrian using the shoulder. It is easy to imagine how an accident might unfold from those circumstances, but again, you often see this scenario away from intersections, and where there aren't also sidewalks, and so again, the location here remains curious.

Not sure why law enforcement doesn't.  Ticket revenue is ticket revenue.

Certainly, it has to be the single most frequent violation I see on a daily basis, if you exclude commonplace excesses of the speed limit. The only other thing I see with comparable frequency is not burning headlights in the rain, but that's not a daily occurrence. So it would be easy to collect a lot of revenue, if that were the aim.

It's been almost five years since I last drove in New York and I have never studied the Vehicle and Traffic Law before doing so, but Empirestate's example--a signalized intersection on NY 32 in an urban area--doesn't strike me as a safe location to use the shoulder as a bypass because of the potential for one vehicle waiting to turn left to hide another also waiting to do the same thing.

Yes, this is the other scenario that's likely to arise, when two opposing vehicles both want to turn left. With a single travel lane in each direction, they can expect to both proceed without conflict, because there will not be any traffic passing them. I've been close to being hit once or twice for this very reason.

A more minor conflict might arise between someone using the shoulder to skip the line when turning right on red, and another vehicle farther ahead making the turn from the travel lane. You will even occasionally find bollards in the shoulder meant to prevent this.

[Sam]

Is it illegal?

The NY State Driver's Manual says specifically "You can pass on the right when a vehicle ahead makes a left turn"

It does say you can't "drive"  on the shoulder in its discussion of passing on the right in general, but then gives a left-turning vehicle as an example of when passing on the right is permitted.

That's not to say you should pass three cars stopped waiting for one car to turn left, but maybe that's why you don't see enforcement.

https://dmv.ny.gov/brochure/mv21.pdf

[webny99]

Not sure why law enforcement doesn't.  Ticket revenue is ticket revenue.

Certainly, it has to be the single most frequent violation I see on a daily basis, if you exclude commonplace excesses of the speed limit. The only other thing I see with comparable frequency is not burning headlights in the rain, but that's not a daily occurrence. So it would be easy to collect a lot of revenue, if that were the aim.

Perhaps the biggest question - bigger even than whether it should be enforced - is how, exactly, it would be enforced. Using the shoulder for "driving" is so vague that it leaves a lot of room for argument. I can't see ticketing people for clipping the white line going over well; it would really need to reach the level of clearly dangerous/unsafe to be worth pursuing IMO, and that definitely still happens, but a lot less frequently.

Is it illegal?

The NY State Driver's Manual says specifically "You can pass on the right when a vehicle ahead makes a left turn"

It does say you can't "drive"  on the shoulder in its discussion of passing on the right in general, but then gives a left-turning vehicle as an example of when passing on the right is permitted.

That's not to say you should pass three cars stopped waiting for one car to turn left, but maybe that's why you don't see enforcement.

I must confess that I have probably used the shoulder if there is a line to turn left and the first and last cars in line are clearly turning left. If someone in the middle of that mess is going straight, well, oops, but that's kind of their problem 

[kalvado]

Well, I think the whole takeaway here is that, according to whoever put up this sign, there is indeed (or should be) such an incentive, even if we haven't figured out exactly what. My assumption would be a conflict between a vehicle and a pedestrian using the shoulder. It is easy to imagine how an accident might unfold from those circumstances, but again, you often see this scenario away from intersections, and where there aren't also sidewalks, and so again, the location here remains curious.

There are certainly some arguments about "traffic calming", "enhanced safety" etc. Little, if anything about safety, just the letter of the law.
There is a non-insignificant amount of people who don't care about the "spirit of the law" - pencil entire legal community into that list, for example. Sometimes it gets really scary . I certainly heard a lot from airline pilots who, in essence, would rather crash by the rule than save the day against the SOP. 

[empirestate]

Is it illegal?

The NY State Driver's Manual says specifically "You can pass on the right when a vehicle ahead makes a left turn"

It does say you can't "drive"  on the shoulder in its discussion of passing on the right in general, but then gives a left-turning vehicle as an example of when passing on the right is permitted.

That all seems to agree. You can pass on the right sometimes, and while doing so you can't drive on the shoulder. (It would be the same for passing on the left.) The VAT codifies this in section 1123(b).

The VAT does give NYSDOT the right to permit–and post–passing on the shoulder in specific locations, including for turns at signalized intersections. (I have never seen this done.) Otherwise, it's prohibited overall on controlled-access highways by section 1131. The NYS MUTCD supplement provides for signage to remind drivers of these two sections, plus section 1120 (which basically refers to 1131).

Perhaps the biggest question - bigger even than whether it should be enforced - is how, exactly, it would be enforced. Using the shoulder for "driving" is so vague that it leaves a lot of room for argument. I can't see ticketing people for clipping the white line going over well; it would really need to reach the level of clearly dangerous/unsafe to be worth pursuing IMO, and that definitely still happens, but a lot less frequently.

In my observation, what can make it dangerous is less about use of the shoulder per se, and more about the lack of a "plan B". It will not always be necessary to overtake a turning vehicle at all, since you can always fall back a little, keep a proper distance, and just let the car make its turn before you even get there. But quite a lot of drivers will just maintain speed, steer directly towards the shoulder, and keep going. I've even had people veer onto my neighbor's lawn when I'm turning into my own driveway, and it's very common to see someone go through the gravel slope at a T-intersection, rather than wait for a left-turning vehicle to clear a single oncoming car or two.

I must confess that I have probably used the shoulder if there is a line to turn left and the first and last cars in line are clearly turning left. If someone in the middle of that mess is going straight, well, oops, but that's kind of their problem 

Well, yes, I mean this is downstate NY, so you will always have a few of "those" drivers.

But I guess my point is that, with respect to this particular rule, it goes beyond just the occasional jerk just trying to get around everyone else, and is understood to be the accepted, appropriate maneuver by the general driving public–in other words, something that everyone does, not just the jerks.

For example, I've seen drivers mount the sidewalk on very rare occasions to do the same thing, which is equally prohibited and in the same general spirit of the shoulder law. But the vast majority of drivers would never think of doing this.

[kalvado]

Is it illegal?

The NY State Driver's Manual says specifically "You can pass on the right when a vehicle ahead makes a left turn"

It does say you can't "drive"  on the shoulder in its discussion of passing on the right in general, but then gives a left-turning vehicle as an example of when passing on the right is permitted.

That all seems to agree. You can pass on the right sometimes, and while doing so you can't drive on the shoulder. (It would be the same for passing on the left.) The VAT codifies this in section 1123(b).

The VAT does give NYSDOT the right to permit–and post–passing on the shoulder in specific locations, including for turns at signalized intersections. (I have never seen this done.) Otherwise, it's prohibited overall on controlled-access highways by section 1131. The NYS MUTCD supplement provides for signage to remind drivers of these two sections, plus section 1120 (which basically refers to 1131).

Perhaps the biggest question - bigger even than whether it should be enforced - is how, exactly, it would be enforced. Using the shoulder for "driving" is so vague that it leaves a lot of room for argument. I can't see ticketing people for clipping the white line going over well; it would really need to reach the level of clearly dangerous/unsafe to be worth pursuing IMO, and that definitely still happens, but a lot less frequently.

In my observation, what can make it dangerous is less about use of the shoulder per se, and more about the lack of a "plan B". It will not always be necessary to overtake a turning vehicle at all, since you can always fall back a little, keep a proper distance, and just let the car make its turn before you even get there. But quite a lot of drivers will just maintain speed, steer directly towards the shoulder, and keep going. I've even had people veer onto my neighbor's lawn when I'm turning into my own driveway, and it's very common to see someone go through the gravel slope at a T-intersection, rather than wait for a left-turning vehicle to clear a single oncoming car or two.

I must confess that I have probably used the shoulder if there is a line to turn left and the first and last cars in line are clearly turning left. If someone in the middle of that mess is going straight, well, oops, but that's kind of their problem 

Well, yes, I mean this is downstate NY, so you will always have a few of "those" drivers.

But I guess my point is that, with respect to this particular rule, it goes beyond just the occasional jerk just trying to get around everyone else, and is understood to be the accepted, appropriate maneuver by the general driving public–in other words, something that everyone does, not just the jerks.

For example, I've seen drivers mount the sidewalk on very rare occasions to do the same thing, which is equally prohibited and in the same general spirit of the shoulder law. But the vast majority of drivers would never think of doing this.

I guess a lot of these things are location-specific. Not sure what is the fraction of commuter/local resident traffic in that particular location, my two "favorite" spots are mostly local traffic well aware of road conditions. in both cases, failure to use shoulder as a turn lane may easily lead to backups extending to nearest intersection (which happen to be a highway interchange). So it may be collectively understood that following the law is against common good. 
I agree it gets much more shaky when things involve grass,  sidewalk is even worse. However, using shoulder in the area with sidewalk should reduce pedestrian concerns.
Locally,  NYSDOT seem to be unwilling to use land grab for a turning lane - their preferred solution is a roundabout. Which, apparently, requires much more land...

[J N Winkler]

Locally,  NYSDOT seem to be unwilling to use land grab for a turning lane - their preferred solution is a roundabout. Which, apparently, requires much more land...

I think this has more to do with the realities of the land acquisition process and is not necessarily specific to NYSDOT.  Back in the MTR days, a regular shared the story of Caltrans expecting agreement to the purchase of a 90-foot-wide strip of ROW just to add a turn lane at an intersection.  The underlying philosophy--bank enough land for full build-out--was summarized as "We will not ask you twice."

[empirestate]

I guess a lot of these things are location-specific. Not sure what is the fraction of commuter/local resident traffic in that particular location, my two "favorite" spots are mostly local traffic well aware of road conditions. in both cases, failure to use shoulder as a turn lane may easily lead to backups extending to nearest intersection (which happen to be a highway interchange). So it may be collectively understood that following the law is against common good.

Well, again, I think it's much less about the "what" than the "how". As I mentioned before, I don't think there'd be widespread opposition to carefully creeping around some turning vehicles in heavy traffic, when the clear alternative is a long delay for many people. I've certainly done this, although at least in some cases I do it because I know that if I don't, someone behind me will, leading to a possible conflict when the car in front of me clears while the person on the shoulder is trying to merge into me from the right.

But that's quite different than doing it every time, whether necessary or not, and without attempting first to adjust to conditions in the prescribed way. I'd be willing to wager that whatever prompted the handmade sign, it was something in the second category rather than the first.

And it's probably that many, if not most, of the instances of this are due to simply lack of awareness of this rule; otherwise, you'd expect to see a comparable frequency of people driving on the sidewalk or median. The fact that the rule is not universal among states would also lend credence to this.

[kalvado]

I guess a lot of these things are location-specific. Not sure what is the fraction of commuter/local resident traffic in that particular location, my two "favorite" spots are mostly local traffic well aware of road conditions. in both cases, failure to use shoulder as a turn lane may easily lead to backups extending to nearest intersection (which happen to be a highway interchange). So it may be collectively understood that following the law is against common good.

Well, again, I think it's much less about the "what" than the "how". As I mentioned before, I don't think there'd be widespread opposition to carefully creeping around some turning vehicles in heavy traffic, when the clear alternative is a long delay for many people. I've certainly done this, although at least in some cases I do it because I know that if I don't, someone behind me will, leading to a possible conflict when the car in front of me clears while the person on the shoulder is trying to merge into me from the right.

But that's quite different than doing it every time, whether necessary or not, and without attempting first to adjust to conditions in the prescribed way. I'd be willing to wager that whatever prompted the handmade sign, it was something in the second category rather than the first.

And it's probably that many, if not most, of the instances of this are due to simply lack of awareness of this rule; otherwise, you'd expect to see a comparable frequency of people driving on the sidewalk or median. The fact that the rule is not universal among states would also lend credence to this.

Or it could be a driver who believes in the letter of the law, who ended up in a situation " I don't do it because it is illegal, but someone behind me still did AND ENDED UP AHEAD OF ME!!!111"
I don't have too much faith in people who have enough time and energy to create and put these handmade signs...

[kalvado]

And it's probably that many, if not most, of the instances of this are due to simply lack of awareness of this rule; otherwise, you'd expect to see a comparable frequency of people driving on the sidewalk or median. The fact that the rule is not universal among states would also lend credence to this.

The fact that rule is not universal among the states tells me there is no unconditional upfront hazard associated with the situation.
Pedestrians walking the shoulder could be an apparent issue, but there is a decent sidewalk in that particular location, so scratch that. Bicyclists may be affected, that's for sure - but, interestingly,  more so by those who slow down and try to do things carefully, not by those passing at full speed.
Both side streets look residential, so little through traffic on side street, but likely enough left turns to make it an issue. Traffic wise - they blocked off Noel st. at the end to avoid bypass traffic, so there must be enough of a volume.
Overall, this looks like a location where one must pass left-turning car on a shoulder to avoid issues, not the other way around .

[empirestate]

Or it could be a driver who believes in the letter of the law, who ended up in a situation " I don't do it because it is illegal, but someone behind me still did AND ENDED UP AHEAD OF ME!!!111"

I...guess?? But I think the conversation will make better sense if we limit our examples to what we can observe.

I don't have too much faith in people who have enough time and energy to create and put these handmade signs...

Can you say more about why? That's kind of what brought this on–what does this person know that led them to observe this? If you have experience with the person, what might that be?

The fact that rule is not universal among the states tells me there is no unconditional upfront hazard associated with the situation.

On the other hand, observing the hazard directly can tell you that it does. The truth, of course, is broader than both–neither statement alone is dispositive.

Pedestrians walking the shoulder could be an apparent issue, but there is a decent sidewalk in that particular location, so scratch that.

Right, you'll recall that we're trying to guess the connection to this location, if any. So we're looking at other places where this occurs, where the shoulder is the appropriate place for pedestrians, and which also happen to be where I've observed shoulder use to be more likely.

Overall, this looks like a location where one must pass left-turning car on a shoulder to avoid issues, not the other way around .

The other way around being what, passing in the intersection? Or just not passing at all?

[kalvado]

Or it could be a driver who believes in the letter of the law, who ended up in a situation " I don't do it because it is illegal, but someone behind me still did AND ENDED UP AHEAD OF ME!!!111"

I...guess?? But I think the conversation will make better sense if we limit our examples to what we can observe.

I don't have too much faith in people who have enough time and energy to create and put these handmade signs...

Can you say more about why? That's kind of what brought this on–what does this person know that led them to observe this? If you have experience with the person, what might that be?

The fact that rule is not universal among the states tells me there is no unconditional upfront hazard associated with the situation.

On the other hand, observing the hazard directly can tell you that it does. The truth, of course, is broader than both–neither statement alone is dispositive.

Pedestrians walking the shoulder could be an apparent issue, but there is a decent sidewalk in that particular location, so scratch that.

Right, you'll recall that we're trying to guess the connection to this location, if any. So we're looking at other places where this occurs, where the shoulder is the appropriate place for pedestrians, and which also happen to be where I've observed shoulder use to be more likely.

Overall, this looks like a location where one must pass left-turning car on a shoulder to avoid issues, not the other way around .

The other way around being what, passing in the intersection? Or just not passing at all?

Without knowing your specific location first hand, I am thinking about a different spot, which to me is a prime example of "must use shoulder" condition. I can post google maps link, but my impression is there were some changes compared to last google image. I'll try to make some pictures when I drove there tomorrow morning.
Unlike spot you show, that is a T, not a full X intersection; so there is no "pass in the intersection" option, only "wait" or "shoulder".  "Intersection" option in X one also depends on what turning driver does. I clearly remember that  20 years ago NY driver manual said  "must move into intersection", and that is no longer the case. There was some discussion here - "move past stop line" is not universally accepted thing as well, so driver of turning car may choose to stay at the stop line, eliminating "in the intersection" option as well. So, legally, a single turning car may block the road for multiple traffic light cycles if oncoming traffic is heavy - until drivers behind turning car choose to break the law. Which is... counterproductive way of thinking. 

As for the sign you discuss... You assume someone had a reason to put that up due to unusual - or uncommon - hazard associated with that particular location. A hazard which a responsible adult driver would recognize as an unusual one for the condition. On the contrary - I assume that there is someone which too much time to spare who doesn't like the fact that people are "breaking the rules". Same cohort likes complaining that "people are driving like crazy, going 65 in 55 MPH zone". A very observable behavior on many forums.  Since there is no way to actually find out, my guess is as good as yours.

I don't see any specific hazard associated with discussed behavior beyond hitting something/someone on a shoulder. Bicyclist is an apparent one.
Other than that, conflicts with turning oncoming traffic and issues with RTOR are possible ones. But those are not unusual and should be routinely accounted for by anay responsible driver while passing through any intersection.
As a side note, oncoming traffic in your location has a dedicated right turn lane - so I would assume volume of traffic turning to Gidney ave. warrants that, and - speculating - there is significant left turn traffic into Gidney in the direction we discuss to cause delays. Very possibly that makes this int6ersection a "must drive around" location. 

[empirestate]

Without knowing your specific location first hand, I am thinking about a different spot, which to me is a prime example of "must use shoulder" condition. I can post google maps link, but my impression is there were some changes compared to last google image. I'll try to make some pictures when I drove there tomorrow morning.
Unlike spot you show, that is a T, not a full X intersection; so there is no "pass in the intersection" option, only "wait" or "shoulder".

Yeah, we've come back to that a few times now. We all seem to think the 4-way intersection where the sign was posted is not the typical candidate for shoulder passing. Maybe the sign refers to a spot up ahead, which is more like what you're thinking of–and indeed, where I saw it happen seconds after my failed attempt to take a picture of the sign. Or maybe it's just a general reminder, with no particular location in mind.

"Intersection" option in X one also depends on what turning driver does. I clearly remember that  20 years ago NY driver manual said  "must move into intersection", and that is no longer the case. There was some discussion here - "move past stop line" is not universally accepted thing as well, so driver of turning car may choose to stay at the stop line, eliminating "in the intersection" option as well. So, legally, a single turning car may block the road for multiple traffic light cycles if oncoming traffic is heavy - until drivers behind turning car choose to break the law. Which is... counterproductive way of thinking.

I mean, a single car shouldn't, as there should be an all-red interval when it can complete its turn. But that's another topic.

But yes, that's another point we've come around to several times. The examples that I find striking aren't those where one might face a delay of several light cycles, or even one. It's when there's no significant time cost to staying in the travel lane, because the turning vehicle isn't likely to cause a delay–i.e., when you don't even bother slowing down a bit to let the car turn, you just steer right for the shoulder and pass it, even after it's already pulling out of the travel lane.

As for the sign you discuss... You assume someone had a reason to put that up due to unusual - or uncommon - hazard associated with that particular location. A hazard which a responsible adult driver would recognize as an unusual one for the condition. On the contrary - I assume that there is someone which too much time to spare who doesn't like the fact that people are "breaking the rules". Same cohort likes complaining that "people are driving like crazy, going 65 in 55 MPH zone". A very observable behavior on many forums.  Since there is no way to actually find out, my guess is as good as yours.

Well, except that it's about a very specific violation, and also mentions fatality, which suggests there may be a specific event in mind. (There also may not be, of course.) And it's not as if there are hundreds of these signs scattered about, so it's not like someone's just out for some general complaining. So it does give some weight to my supposition that it was precipitated by something specific.

I don't see any specific hazard associated with discussed behavior beyond hitting something/someone on a shoulder.

Which, I should imagine, is enough. But there are others, which have been mentioned, and which you even go on to list.

As a side note, oncoming traffic in your location has a dedicated right turn lane - so I would assume volume of traffic turning to Gidney ave. warrants that, and - speculating - there is significant left turn traffic into Gidney in the direction we discuss to cause delays. Very possibly that makes this int6ersection a "must drive around" location.

It backs up at peak periods, for sure. Normally you can get around fine just within the intersection, but if someone did hang back at the stop line, you might find yourself on the shoulder for a bit. But the geometry here doesn't really allow for a full-speed swerve around, so this intersection is probably going to fall into what we all seem to agree is an acceptable "sneak-around" scenario.

[astralentity]

Might have been said earlier on here, but what exactly is going on at the Northway exit 17?  I see they've made it just one exit for both directions on US 9 for now.  Is there bridge repair going on or something?

EDIT:  I found it.  Bridge replacement and making the ramps terminate to a T with signals.  I'm actually shocked that there was no mention of roundabouts for this.

https://www.townofmoreau.org/documents/PIN%20104342_U.S.%20Route%209%20over%20Interstate%2087%20at%20Exit%2017_Public%20Information%20Brochure.pdf

[webny99]

Might have been said earlier on here, but what exactly is going on at the Northway exit 17?  I see they've made it just one exit for both directions on US 9 for now.  Is there bridge repair going on or something?

EDIT:  I found it.  Bridge replacement and making the ramps terminate to a T with signals.  I'm actually shocked that there was no mention of roundabouts for this.

https://www.townofmoreau.org/documents/PIN%20104342_U.S.%20Route%209%20over%20Interstate%2087%20at%20Exit%2017_Public%20Information%20Brochure.pdf

Wouldn't it be much too busy for roundabouts? I'm curious what the problem was with the cloverleaf configuration.

[astralentity]

Might have been said earlier on here, but what exactly is going on at the Northway exit 17?  I see they've made it just one exit for both directions on US 9 for now.  Is there bridge repair going on or something?

EDIT:  I found it.  Bridge replacement and making the ramps terminate to a T with signals.  I'm actually shocked that there was no mention of roundabouts for this.

https://www.townofmoreau.org/documents/PIN%20104342_U.S.%20Route%209%20over%20Interstate%2087%20at%20Exit%2017_Public%20Information%20Brochure.pdf

Wouldn't it be much too busy for roundabouts? I'm curious what the problem was with the cloverleaf configuration.

I didn't think there was an issue either, but I guess it was "too much weaving" for someone. 

[webny99]

And I have another "what exactly is going on"... with NY 251? There's a short (approx. 1/2 mile) segment closed in Mendon, NY that doesn't have any apparent bridges or anything that might be undergoing reconstruction. It took me by surprise during my attempted clinch of NY 251 on Saturday, so I just followed the rather long posted detour, which is NY 15A south to Sibley Rd to NY 65 north, picking up a new section of NY 15A in the process.

But based on the posted mileages ("CLOSED 2-3/4 MILES AHEAD" from NY 15A and "CLOSED 3/4 MILE AHEAD" ahead from NY 65) I was pretty sure it must be a short closure that I could probably get around with a much shorter detour. My curiosity got the better of me today, so I tried again, following NY 251 eastbound as far as I could (and going past 2 more "road closed ahead - local traffic only" signs) before I finally got to the actual closure, which started at Plains Rd (exactly what I was hoping for!). There did appear to be significant construction equipment and signs of activity, but it was almost 6PM so, unsurprisingly, no active work was going on. I then took Plains Rd to Junction Rd back to NY 251 and found I was past the other end of the closure, so I continued on to NY 65 as planned to "complete" my clinch of NY 251. (I am going to call it clinched given that I (a) followed the posted detour and (b) went as far as possible on both ends. Plus it's such a short closure that I have been on over 90% of the 3.07 mile "NY15A <-> StoLonRd" segment in Travel Mapping, and I've logged much more egregious segments for the purposes of tracking what routes I've been on.)

I can obviously see why NYSDOT can't use the detour I used as their posted detour - there's an 8 ton weight limit on Plains Rd and there would be significant traffic concerns on both roads - but still, it seems like a very long detour for such a short closure, and just a strange closure in general. I can usually find something from either a Google search or NYSDOT's site, but I'm coming up empty there too. Any insight from vdeane, rothman or others would certainly be of interest/appreciated!

[Rothman]

Might have been said earlier on here, but what exactly is going on at the Northway exit 17?  I see they've made it just one exit for both directions on US 9 for now.  Is there bridge repair going on or something?

EDIT:  I found it.  Bridge replacement and making the ramps terminate to a T with signals.  I'm actually shocked that there was no mention of roundabouts for this.

https://www.townofmoreau.org/documents/PIN%20104342_U.S.%20Route%209%20over%20Interstate%2087%20at%20Exit%2017_Public%20Information%20Brochure.pdf

Wouldn't it be much too busy for roundabouts? I'm curious what the problem was with the cloverleaf configuration.

I didn't think there was an issue either, but I guess it was "too much weaving" for someone.

A roundabout would have been considered for this location.  Someone can contact Region 1 and find out why it was not pursued in the end, but it was definitely considered as part of NYSDOT policy.

[astralentity]

Might have been said earlier on here, but what exactly is going on at the Northway exit 17?  I see they've made it just one exit for both directions on US 9 for now.  Is there bridge repair going on or something?

EDIT:  I found it.  Bridge replacement and making the ramps terminate to a T with signals.  I'm actually shocked that there was no mention of roundabouts for this.

https://www.townofmoreau.org/documents/PIN%20104342_U.S.%20Route%209%20over%20Interstate%2087%20at%20Exit%2017_Public%20Information%20Brochure.pdf

Wouldn't it be much too busy for roundabouts? I'm curious what the problem was with the cloverleaf configuration.

I didn't think there was an issue either, but I guess it was "too much weaving" for someone.

A roundabout would have been considered for this location.  Someone can contact Region 1 and find out why it was not pursued in the end, but it was definitely considered as part of NYSDOT policy.

Do you think roundabouts would have been a preferred option?  Its not surprising given how much a lot of people out there just don't like them and many more don't even know how to properly negotiate one.

[Rothman]

Might have been said earlier on here, but what exactly is going on at the Northway exit 17?  I see they've made it just one exit for both directions on US 9 for now.  Is there bridge repair going on or something?

EDIT:  I found it.  Bridge replacement and making the ramps terminate to a T with signals.  I'm actually shocked that there was no mention of roundabouts for this.

https://www.townofmoreau.org/documents/PIN%20104342_U.S.%20Route%209%20over%20Interstate%2087%20at%20Exit%2017_Public%20Information%20Brochure.pdf

Wouldn't it be much too busy for roundabouts? I'm curious what the problem was with the cloverleaf configuration.

I didn't think there was an issue either, but I guess it was "too much weaving" for someone.

A roundabout would have been considered for this location.  Someone can contact Region 1 and find out why it was not pursued in the end, but it was definitely considered as part of NYSDOT policy.

Do you think roundabouts would have been a preferred option?  Its not surprising given how much a lot of people out there just don't like them and many more don't even know how to properly negotiate one.

Well, no.  The preferred alternative is the design they're carrying forward.

[astralentity]

Might have been said earlier on here, but what exactly is going on at the Northway exit 17?  I see they've made it just one exit for both directions on US 9 for now.  Is there bridge repair going on or something?

EDIT:  I found it.  Bridge replacement and making the ramps terminate to a T with signals.  I'm actually shocked that there was no mention of roundabouts for this.

https://www.townofmoreau.org/documents/PIN%20104342_U.S.%20Route%209%20over%20Interstate%2087%20at%20Exit%2017_Public%20Information%20Brochure.pdf

Wouldn't it be much too busy for roundabouts? I'm curious what the problem was with the cloverleaf configuration.

I didn't think there was an issue either, but I guess it was "too much weaving" for someone.

A roundabout would have been considered for this location.  Someone can contact Region 1 and find out why it was not pursued in the end, but it was definitely considered as part of NYSDOT policy.

Do you think roundabouts would have been a preferred option?  Its not surprising given how much a lot of people out there just don't like them and many more don't even know how to properly negotiate one.

Well, no.  The preferred alternative is the design they're carrying forward.

I think @webny99 had the right question....  what was the problem with the existing configuration?  (aside from the obvious weaving problem, which wasn't a horrible issue before lanes were taken out)

[Rothman]

Might have been said earlier on here, but what exactly is going on at the Northway exit 17?  I see they've made it just one exit for both directions on US 9 for now.  Is there bridge repair going on or something?

EDIT:  I found it.  Bridge replacement and making the ramps terminate to a T with signals.  I'm actually shocked that there was no mention of roundabouts for this.

https://www.townofmoreau.org/documents/PIN%20104342_U.S.%20Route%209%20over%20Interstate%2087%20at%20Exit%2017_Public%20Information%20Brochure.pdf

Wouldn't it be much too busy for roundabouts? I'm curious what the problem was with the cloverleaf configuration.

I didn't think there was an issue either, but I guess it was "too much weaving" for someone.

A roundabout would have been considered for this location.  Someone can contact Region 1 and find out why it was not pursued in the end, but it was definitely considered as part of NYSDOT policy.

Do you think roundabouts would have been a preferred option?  Its not surprising given how much a lot of people out there just don't like them and many more don't even know how to properly negotiate one.

Well, no.  The preferred alternative is the design they're carrying forward.

I think @webny99 had the right question....  what was the problem with the existing configuration?  (aside from the obvious weaving problem, which wasn't a horrible issue before lanes were taken out)

You'd have to ask them.

[Alps]

And I have another "what exactly is going on"... with NY 251? There's a short (approx. 1/2 mile) segment closed in Mendon, NY that doesn't have any apparent bridges or anything that might be undergoing reconstruction. It took me by surprise during my attempted clinch of NY 251 on Saturday, so I just followed the rather long posted detour, which is NY 15A south to Sibley Rd to NY 65 north, picking up a new section of NY 15A in the process.

But based on the posted mileages ("CLOSED 2-3/4 MILES AHEAD" from NY 15A and "CLOSED 3/4 MILE AHEAD" ahead from NY 65) I was pretty sure it must be a short closure that I could probably get around with a much shorter detour. My curiosity got the better of me today, so I tried again, following NY 251 eastbound as far as I could (and going past 2 more "road closed ahead - local traffic only" signs) before I finally got to the actual closure, which started at Plains Rd (exactly what I was hoping for!). There did appear to be significant construction equipment and signs of activity, but it was almost 6PM so, unsurprisingly, no active work was going on. I then took Plains Rd to Junction Rd back to NY 251 and found I was past the other end of the closure, so I continued on to NY 65 as planned to "complete" my clinch of NY 251. (I am going to call it clinched given that I (a) followed the posted detour and (b) went as far as possible on both ends. Plus it's such a short closure that I have been on over 90% of the 3.07 mile "NY15A <-> StoLonRd" segment in Travel Mapping, and I've logged much more egregious segments for the purposes of tracking what routes I've been on.)

I can obviously see why NYSDOT can't use the detour I used as their posted detour - there's an 8 ton weight limit on Plains Rd and there would be significant traffic concerns on both roads - but still, it seems like a very long detour for such a short closure, and just a strange closure in general. I can usually find something from either a Google search or NYSDOT's site, but I'm coming up empty there too. Any insight from vdeane, rothman or others would certainly be of interest/appreciated!

Nothing apparent there, but my policy on this is I only count it as clinched if I can see the same closure point from both sides (so either see the other side, or from both sides I can see the midpoint). You should have headed back west on 251 from Junction Rd. and U-turned. P.S. i think it's in Rush, not Mendon.

[webny99]

Nothing apparent there, but my policy on this is I only count it as clinched if I can see the same closure point from both sides (so either see the other side, or from both sides I can see the midpoint). You should have headed back west on 251 from Junction Rd. and U-turned. P.S. i think it's in Rush, not Mendon.

Sorry, I wasn't clear that it was closed from Junction Rd on the other side, so I couldn't have gone any further on that side either (you can't quite see both sides at once, but it's close enough for me).

It may be a Rush ZIP but the closure is in the town of Mendon, it starts about 3/4 mile southeast of the town line.

[vdeane]

Might have been said earlier on here, but what exactly is going on at the Northway exit 17?  I see they've made it just one exit for both directions on US 9 for now.  Is there bridge repair going on or something?

EDIT:  I found it.  Bridge replacement and making the ramps terminate to a T with signals.  I'm actually shocked that there was no mention of roundabouts for this.

https://www.townofmoreau.org/documents/PIN%20104342_U.S.%20Route%209%20over%20Interstate%2087%20at%20Exit%2017_Public%20Information%20Brochure.pdf

There were concerns regarding the transition from a high-speed interchange to a corridor with traffic lights and increasing development.  The project improves safety and reconfigures the interchange to be more in line with how US 9 functions today.  The new bridge will also have wider shoulders, meaning that it should be possible to ride a bike to/from Moreau Lake State Park.