New York

[kalvado]

The left exit for Exit 24 (I-90/I-87) is a major cause for LLB-ing all the way back to I-890.  It's frustrating.

You mean where the Thruway exits I-90 to the right? I always thought the Thruway designed it that way since the major flow was to I-90 with only a secondary flow remaining on the Thruway. But looking at it on Google Earth, it appears they then blew it by adding the "exit"  lane on the left rather than on the right.

As a general rule, option lanes are better than added lanes for that very reason. No matter which side the extra lane opens on, slow traffic tends to collects in that single lane until the new lane opens. Option lanes provide a lot more flexibility for all traffic.

People would still clog the left lane of the Thruway like they do now, though.

The way it is now, all traffic to I-90 has to get in that left lane at some point. I think an option lane would make things at least a little better, since traffic could use both the left and center lanes to get to I-90.

There are 2 lanes going right towards NYC, and 2 lanes going left to Albany.
After 2 lanes going towards Albany joins with another 2-lane ramp from opposite Thruway direction, there was a now-gone toll plaza and after that 2 lanes go left to i-90 Albany, 2 lanes go right to I-87 Northway, and a lane splits off towards us20 exit.
It's a complex interchange with lots of merges and lane changes, slowdown is really expected.
What @Rothman seemingly wants is an express lane for himself to save 15 seconds.

PS edited ramp description for clarity

Nah, just an intersection that's up to modern standards.  Get rid of the left exit and things'll flow better all the way from Schenectady.  All those slow people on the left will now be on the right where they should be.

Left exit has VERY little to do with the issues. What we really need int that area is  to deal with Northway -> Thruway ramp. However that requires some engineering with at least GED diplomas working for NYSDOT...
As for slow people... Where exactly are you heading?
I suspect you are exiting towards Albany, and what you're arguing about is your god-given right to cut through 4 lanes of traffic in the last moment, making other drivers brake to the floor. Am I missing something?

Yep, Exit 1 from I-87 SB is bad, but I wonder if better signage would help (split traffic into Thruway/Free 90 lanes earlier).  Of course, just adding a lane to the ramp to the Thruway would be better.

Left exit causes a lot of issues.  Take the converse, with the right exit on I-90 WB for I-890 to Schenectady.  Works a lot better.  So would getting rid of the left on I-90 EB for I-90.

You're comparing an "exit" handling 87k AADT two-way, 44k one way probably,  per NYSDOT traffic viewer -  with an exit handling 19k. Of course one with 4x less traffic will be a much easier one.
Yes, 44k AADT on 2 lanes, that is pretty much at capacity. There will be volume slow down there, with left, right, or top to bottom exit routing. 

Overall... It's an attitude thing. What  is "slow" in your perspective, 70-75 MPH over 65 MPH speed limit? I never saw a backup there, traffic keeps flowing. Take a deep breath and ease your foot. You are not going to gain a lot by going 80 instead of 60 over those 5 miles. In fact, you may gain at most a minute on the 25-24 stretch, probably 30 seconds at most.  I would understand being worried for a teen who has more testosterone than gray matter, but for a grown up... Plowing the way through traffic isn't going to improve your karma!

[froggie]

Traffic volumes suggest 2 lanes from 17 to the Berkshire Extension. But my experience suggests they should 3 lane each way the whole way.

Can you elaborate a bit? I can see arguments against widening NYSTA would be putting on a table (money, money, and money), but I don't quite see full pro-widening picture.

New York isn't a poor state. Why can't they afford that? What would it cost? 3-5 billion for the entire thing? It's also a tolled facility so could they not issue bonds? Furthermore does the NYSTA only operate that one road or all tolled roads in the state?

Keep in mind that the Thruway Authority also burned a lot of bonds recently in replacing the Tappan Zee Bridge.  That's going to take some time to pay down.

The Thruway Authority operates more than just the Thruway proper.  They're also responsible for the Berkshire Spur (mentioned upthread), I-190, I-287, the New England Thruway (I-95 from Exit 8 to the CT line), and the Garden State Parkway Connector.

[Alps]

to recap huge thread: 50k AADT is not valid on many weekends in different seasons. can be much higher, that is just an AVERAGE. hence the need for 3 lanes.
do not care whether i-90 or i-87 exit themselves on the left or right. technically Thruway is the mainline, but these are the thru numbers, so either way is justifiable.

[machias]

Hey I noticed something when virtually touring I-81. I see the Cartland Next 2 Exits sign now is revised to include both exits for Ithaca as well.

https://goo.gl/maps/ZpDmXbUBtyX189kv8

Then also the Exit 12 guides now include Ithaca as well as Homer and Cortland.

https://goo.gl/maps/Pnid81TVgVA2itrYA

I always thought NYSDOT should include Ithaca along with Cortland on the Next 2 exits signs.  Now I see someone is finally thinking clearly.

NYSDOT has been on a few sign replacement projects in Region 3 over the last 3-4 years.  As one sees from the EXIT 12 guide sign, NYSDOT has added 2 MILE advance signage whereas there was none before on sections of I-81 south of Syracuse and on NY 481 between North Syracuse and Fulton.  NYSDOT has also changed signage at the entrance areas on interchanges such as this: https://goo.gl/maps/PCrGHwSQiyzNTcnM9.  This is what this spot looked like in late 2016: https://goo.gl/maps/XkbRVNMjnP5aJwAt7.  NYSDOT also got rid of the mileage signs at these interchanges such as this: https://goo.gl/maps/QnR53r7BRRSgdEtQ6.  This seems to be more in line with what states such as Ohio, Michigan, and Indiana do at interchanges.

It is good to see that NYSDOT, especially in Region 3, is replacing, upgrading, and updating signage throughout.  Even some state highways have received updated signage.  Many mileage signs and destination signs now employ mixed case lettering instead of all CAPS.

Also, no Series F on the shields on the updated signs. 

Yes, Region 3 has definitely been leading the state on the "2 miles" advance signs for interchanges. Interestingly, some projects called for the addition of a 2 miles and 1/2 mile sign to the standard 1 mile, but other projects did not, adding only a 2 miles sign to the mix.  I wonder if it was to better space service and secondary destination signs.

[J N Winkler]

Do we know enough about the temporal distribution of traffic on the Thruway to determine lane count required to maintain LOS B at the 30th highest hour (a) now, and (b) in a hypothetical design year of 2045 (assuming annualized traffic growth at a consistent rate along the entire corridor)?

[kalvado]

Do we know enough about the temporal distribution of traffic on the Thruway to determine lane count required to maintain LOS B at the 30th highest hour (a) now, and (b) in a hypothetical design year of 2045 (assuming annualized traffic growth at a consistent rate along the entire corridor)?

I don't think there is growth in the plans for upstate NY. My strong impression is that many plans assume further population decline.

[seicer]

Page 66 and on from https://www.thruway.ny.gov/about/financial/bond/traffic-revenue-report.pdf -

Passenger traffic will continue to slowly grow in the near-term forecast, while commercial traffic plateaus and starts to decline.

[Rothman]

Do we know enough about the temporal distribution of traffic on the Thruway to determine lane count required to maintain LOS B at the 30th highest hour (a) now, and (b) in a hypothetical design year of 2045 (assuming annualized traffic growth at a consistent rate along the entire corridor)?

I don't think there is growth in the plans for upstate NY. My strong impression is that many plans assume further population decline.

*snickers*

Somebody doesn't know NYSDOT's Highway Data Service's golden rule when it comes to traffic counts.

[seicer]

Well, the population in much of New York will be declining but that doesn't necessarily mean traffic will drop. For instance, New York is seeing record park visitation all throughout its state-managed units and the Adirondacks so this could be a deciding factor in future projects. But I suspect that new long-distance corridors will be put on the back burner - like the US 219 project, because there isn't the traffic nor growth coming to much of upstate.

[cockroachking]

Well, the population in much of New York will be declining but that doesn't necessarily mean traffic will drop. For instance, New York is seeing record park visitation all throughout its state-managed units and the Adirondacks so this could be a deciding factor in future projects. But I suspect that new long-distance corridors will be put on the back burner - like the US 219 project, because there isn't the traffic nor growth coming to much of upstate.

That sure is not stopping states like West Virginia from building new roads left and right.

[seicer]

Different politics and funding policies.

Corridor H is the last Appalachian Development Highway System (ADHS) corridor to be finished in the state, and there is a huge push into getting the central portion completed between Elkins and Thomas/Davis. Construction is underway on the portion from Elkins to Parsons, and construction should start on the Parsons to Thomas/Davis portion by 2023 or 2024. The east Wardenville segment is contingent on Virginia building its portion but the engineering has been completed.

The Coalfields Expressway (US 121) isn't an ADHS corridor and is being mostly funded via federal and state dollars and the Roads to Prosperity program - which is partly funded through tolls from the West Virginia Turnpike. Tolls now have semi-regular increases, taking politics out of any increases - which is partly the reason why tolls were stuck at $1.25 per mainline booth for a very long time. It was the cheapest toll road to drive on in the nation for decades - and it's still not a bad deal at $4.25 per mainline booth. But it is funding the Coalfields extension from Mullens to Welch.

The King Coal Highway/Tolsia Highway (US 52) is being extended a few miles to Airport Road/WV 123 around Bluefield, but that's about it. Proposed for 2024 or 2025 is the completion of the Williamson bypass from US 119 to the completed segment south of the city. Again, funded with a combination of federal and state dollars and the Roads to Prosperity program.

Others, like the US 522 project in the eastern part of the state, is all reliant on federal and state dollars.

[cl94]

Re: the NYSTA budget, yes, they have no money thanks to a large bridge and had issues even before then. Not only have they not increased tolls to keep up with inflation, there are a crapton of bridge/paving projects on the backlog upstate and a few places that need full-depth reconstruction. A lot of people up here think think that the stuff upstate was put on hold for "Daddy's Bridge" and that is going to create resistance to toll increases to close the gap.

[Rothman]

Different politics and funding policies.

Corridor H is the last Appalachian Development Highway System (ADHS) corridor to be finished in the state, and there is a huge push into getting the central portion completed between Elkins and Thomas/Davis. Construction is underway on the portion from Elkins to Parsons, and construction should start on the Parsons to Thomas/Davis portion by 2023 or 2024. The east Wardenville segment is contingent on Virginia building its portion but the engineering has been completed.

The Coalfields Expressway (US 121) isn't an ADHS corridor and is being mostly funded via federal and state dollars and the Roads to Prosperity program - which is partly funded through tolls from the West Virginia Turnpike. Tolls now have semi-regular increases, taking politics out of any increases - which is partly the reason why tolls were stuck at $1.25 per mainline booth for a very long time. It was the cheapest toll road to drive on in the nation for decades - and it's still not a bad deal at $4.25 per mainline booth. But it is funding the Coalfields extension from Mullens to Welch.

The King Coal Highway/Tolsia Highway (US 52) is being extended a few miles to Airport Road/WV 123 around Bluefield, but that's about it. Proposed for 2024 or 2025 is the completion of the Williamson bypass from US 119 to the completed segment south of the city. Again, funded with a combination of federal and state dollars and the Roads to Prosperity program.

Others, like the US 522 project in the eastern part of the state, is all reliant on federal and state dollars.

Outside of the flexible toll revenue mentioned, I am not sure what you think the difference is with the other projects between WV and NY.

[seicer]

Major differences.

- New York sends a substantial amount of money downstate - and whether that is too much or too little, that's a lot different than West Virginia where the money is more evenly distributed.

- The New York State Thruway also does not send money to projects across the state. The West Virginia Turnpike, when it fell under the broader tourism and parkway authority, funded projects that were not necessarily transportation-related... such as the Tamarack. Now that it has been divested of its tourism responsibilities, the Turnpike directs 100% of its revenue to maintaining the Turnpike and in supporting projects throughout the southern tier of the state.

- West Virginia is still completing its ADHS corridors. New York finished Corridor T (NY 17/I-86) and Corridor U (SR 328) and U-1 (US 15/I-99). So of course it looks like West Virginia is still building like crazy - but it's just that our highways have taken a lot longer to come to fruition because of their high costs and routing changes.

[Rothman]

Major differences.

- New York sends a substantial amount of money downstate - and whether that is too much or too little, that's a lot different than West Virginia where the money is more evenly distributed.

- The New York State Thruway also does not send money to projects across the state. The West Virginia Turnpike, when it fell under the broader tourism and parkway authority, funded projects that were not necessarily transportation-related... such as the Tamarack. Now that it has been divested of its tourism responsibilities, the Turnpike directs 100% of its revenue to maintaining the Turnpike and in supporting projects throughout the southern tier of the state.

- West Virginia is still completing its ADHS corridors. New York finished Corridor T (NY 17/I-86) and Corridor U (SR 328) and U-1 (US 15/I-99). So of course it looks like West Virginia is still building like crazy - but it's just that our highways have taken a lot longer to come to fruition because of their high costs and routing changes.

Like I said, outside the sharing of toll revenue for other transportation projects (which you restate for some reason here), the other two reasons you list don't fully explain why WV has been able to build new roads and NY has not.

Distribution of funding across a state doesn't matter.  Fine, NY sends money downstate.  NY could build new roads down there, too.

Do you know what fund sources WV is using to complete the ADHS?  ADHS specific funding is quite old by now and I wouldn't be surprised if it has been depleted and WV is utilizing core federal fund sources to complete the job (hence the elongated schedule)...which means NY and WV are still similar in available funding.

So, I don't think we're getting closer to the real reasons behind the difference.

[seicer]

ADHS is still being funded (see: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/2284/text?r=38&s=1, which was signed into law) via appropriations and measures such as that. It also helps to have strong senators and representatives that have championed highway construction as a core tenant of their campaigns. Manchin and Byrd have been major proponents of getting their ADHS corridors completed - and both have sat and wielded power in their respective committees. New York, despite its many more senators and representatives, doesn't have as much pull and its priorities have been put elsewhere.

For other projects, there is little funding to pull from and so projects do get dragged out much longer than the corridor routes. US 35 is probably an exception and there were serious talks of making it into a toll road. It took a new governor and the Roads to Prosperity program to finally get the last (long) leg built. But then you have the King Coal/Tolsia Highways, and for the 30 years it's been out there, only a few short segments and the longer Williamson-Gilbert segment have been built. And it looks like the remainder of it, from Williamson north and Gilbert south to Bluefield will be built with two lanes - and the segment north of Williamson may follow portions of the existing road instead of being all new terrain to expedite construction. I don't forsee it being completed in my lifetime.

And then there is WV 10, which was once projected to be all four lanes from Huntington south. Only the segment from Logan to Man has been completed and there is nothing else proposed. Or the completion of the WV 9 freeway around Martinsburg. US 522. I-68's westward extension to Wheeling. WV 2... etc.

Take away the corridors and what's being funded via the Turnpike, and West Virginia isn't building much.

[Rothman]

ADHS is still being funded (see: https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/2284/text?r=38&s=1, which was signed into law) via appropriations and measures such as that. It also helps to have strong senators and representatives that have championed highway construction as a core tenant of their campaigns. Manchin and Byrd have been major proponents of getting their ADHS corridors completed - and both have sat and wielded power in their respective committees. New York, despite its many more senators and representatives, doesn't have as much pull and its priorities have been put elsewhere.

For other projects, there is little funding to pull from and so projects do get dragged out much longer than the corridor routes. US 35 is probably an exception and there were serious talks of making it into a toll road. It took a new governor and the Roads to Prosperity program to finally get the last (long) leg built. But then you have the King Coal/Tolsia Highways, and for the 30 years it's been out there, only a few short segments and the longer Williamson-Gilbert segment have been built. And it looks like the remainder of it, from Williamson north and Gilbert south to Bluefield will be built with two lanes - and the segment north of Williamson may follow portions of the existing road instead of being all new terrain to expedite construction. I don't forsee it being completed in my lifetime.

And then there is WV 10, which was once projected to be all four lanes from Huntington south. Only the segment from Logan to Man has been completed and there is nothing else proposed. Or the completion of the WV 9 freeway around Martinsburg. US 522. I-68's westward extension to Wheeling. WV 2... etc.

Take away the corridors and what's being funded via the Turnpike, and West Virginia isn't building much.

That bill in your link is not law nor funding.  It does shoe Manchin's interest in the ADHS, but as the tracker says right in your link, it hasn't moved past introduction and it has sat there since June of last year.

I don't have time, but you certainly could sift through the FHWA apportionment notices to see the last time ADHS was included.

[seicer]

Signed into law: https://www.portman.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/portman-manchins-finish-adhs-act-signed-law-part-bipartisan-infrastructure#:~:text=Finish%20the%20ADHS%20Act%20is,in%20funding%20through%20this%20legislation.

[Rothman]

Signed into law: https://www.portman.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/portman-manchins-finish-adhs-act-signed-law-part-bipartisan-infrastructure#:~:text=Finish%20the%20ADHS%20Act%20is,in%20funding%20through%20this%20legislation.

*sigh*

The other issue is what was funding more recent work, given that the BIA was just signed some months ago.

Found that FHWA notice yet?

[crispy93]

Here's a weird signal near me, on NY 52. The shopping plaza gets a signal and the empty lot across the street gets one signal head. The empty lot gets a flashing red and does not have a sensor. However, if the shopping plaza trips the green, the empty lot's signal will turn green, yellow, then back to flashing red.

https://goo.gl/maps/hR81TgWLRetCaMPKA

[kalvado]

Here's a weird signal near me, on NY 52. The shopping plaza gets a signal and the empty lot across the street gets one signal head. The empty lot gets a flashing red and does not have a sensor. However, if the shopping plaza trips the green, the empty lot's signal will turn green, yellow, then back to flashing red.

https://goo.gl/maps/hR81TgWLRetCaMPKA

A pretty similar one was here. CHanged to a full light when another store was added. 

https://goo.gl/maps/qSmdoZbxs6iQDiEh9

Looks like when there is a major traffic source (plaza with a large grocery store in this case) on one side, and something that doesn't meet traffic numbers for a traffic light across the street, they try to get the best of both situations with a traffic light (because it is already there), but no (expensive) sensor mixed with a stop sign (flashing red) such smaller location would get otherwise.

[baugh17]

Here's a weird signal near me, on NY 52. The shopping plaza gets a signal and the empty lot across the street gets one signal head. The empty lot gets a flashing red and does not have a sensor. However, if the shopping plaza trips the green, the empty lot's signal will turn green, yellow, then back to flashing red.

https://goo.gl/maps/hR81TgWLRetCaMPKA

A pretty similar one was here. CHanged to a full light when another store was added. 

https://goo.gl/maps/qSmdoZbxs6iQDiEh9

Looks like when there is a major traffic source (plaza with a large grocery store in this case) on one side, and something that doesn't meet traffic numbers for a traffic light across the street, they try to get the best of both situations with a traffic light (because it is already there), but no (expensive) sensor mixed with a stop sign (flashing red) such smaller location would get otherwise.

And then you have instances like this one on NY 31 in Pittsford which has had this setup for as long as I can remember.  Like the NY 52 signal, the red phase is a flashing red.  First thoughts would be that the signal facing away from traffic was to serve as a pedestrian signal.  Until you see where the crosswalk is.

https://earth.google.com/web/@43.0958458,-77.52745598,134.07229614a,0d,90y,156.66543949h,87.3118397t,0r/data=IjAKLEFGMVFpcE50V3lMM29LSTJsNnRmYVp4dkI3dWpYenY0SW8xWjItX1dtQjhoEAU

[empirestate]

On another topic, what's with the awkward interchange with US 9 and US 44/NY 55 in Poughkeepsie? Obviously it's an old interchange with the left exits/merges and short accel lanes, but why choose said design in the first place? It does no favors for US 9 -> Mid Hudson Bridge traffic (US 9 NB competes with exiting SB traffic) and if they were to redesign the interchange it could do with flyovers directly accessing 44/55 WB.

I drove through that interchange daily for about 10 years. I don't think it can be fixed because there's no space on either side. I was surprised when there wasn't someone rear-ended there. Accident rate was 10.97 per million vehicle miles when I asked for accident data

I think the bowtie design was innovative given the space constraints, but the left lane exits and merges are problematic.  I wonder if speed reducing measures on US 9 would help matters.

The cleanest way to fix it is to make it a SPUI, but I'm sure a free-flowing interchange for all directions is preferred.

Update on an old topic: the redesign study has been released, including a preferred alternative:
https://www.poughkeepsie94455.com/library
Also included is a redesign of the 44/55 arterial.

[astralentity]

Ok...  anyone have a clue when Sacandaga Road between Vley Road and the Scotia village line will ever be repaved?  It's literally a cobblestone road now.

[Rothman]

Ok...  anyone have a clue when Sacandaga Road between Vley Road and the Scotia village line will ever be repaved?  It's literally a cobblestone road now.

Put a bobblehead on your dashboard and drive it, taking a video of it shaking.  That always gets NYSDOT's attention.