News on the Rickety bridge connecting Illinois Rte. 14 and Indiana SR 66. Other than SR 68, I am not sure what roads should really be turned over to Posey County. Certainly not SR 66, and SR 69 connects a porton the Ohio River to I-64. SR 69 is also part of the NHS.
I am not sure why potential funding sources from Illinois aren't listed. Any ideas?
INDOT doesn't want New Harmony bridge (http://www.courierpress.com/news/2011/oct/27/no-headline---ev_bridge/) (Evansville Courier Press)
INDOT presents New Harmony Bridge proposals (http://www.carmitimes.com/features/x1626910164/INDOT-presents-New-Harmony-Bridge-proposals) (Carmi, IL Times)
Nothing is on the Illinois end, whereas the Indiana side, the bridge drops into downtown New Harmony. The bridge is more important to New Harmony and Indiana than it is to Illinois, with I 64 nearby to the north. Besides, Illinois would face the same realities - less than 1000 vehicles a day, limited funds in budgets already, and the added expense of maintaining an aging facility. The most feasible solution is to close the bridge, and tear it down.
I thought Indiana currently is well under their mileage cap, do they need to turn anything over?
I used to drive through Crossville on Route 1 pretty much every day for months before realizing that road even went to Indiana. :-/
I wouldn't want IDiOT touch a bridge like New Harmony with a 50 foot pole right now with the rate they're tearing down truss bridges in the past decade.
The White County Bridge Commission has decided to close the New Harmony Bridge.
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2012/may/20/no-headline---ev_bridge/
Deteriorating Indiana toll bridge to close (http://www.indystar.com/article/20120521/NEWS/205210382/Deteriorating-Indiana-toll-bridge-close?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CIndyStar.com) (Indy Star)
Despite the title, the bridge connects Illinois and Indiana.
I had taken a series of pictures for an eventual AARoads set on SR 66 from Tell City west to New Harmony and I had thought about crossing the bridge, I didn't do it but now I wish I had taken the opportunity. I have been across it once though, so I have at least experienced it and when I get that set completed I will also have a few pictures with that bridge. So, will SR 66 just end at that final intersection by the parking lot to the New Harmony visitors center (Arthur Street) or does it get truncated to SR 69 a mile to the east? And what about the Illinois side with SR 14, could it get truncated to SR 1?
I also have some pictures of the bridge and drove over it. My guess is that SR 66 will end where it does for now - it always ended just before the bridge. Neither SR 66 nor route 14 was on the bridge.
Quote from: adt1982 on May 21, 2012, 11:39:24 AM
The White County Bridge Commission has decided to close the New Harmony Bridge.
http://www.courierpress.com/news/2012/may/20/no-headline---ev_bridge/
Decided to close? It's been closed for years.
Oh, wait, I guess it was just a temporary closure when I was there on 4/20/08.
http://www.millenniumhwy.net/2008_STL_Day_3/index.html
Yes, it was closed for 7 months a few years ago.
I better get to Evansville before they go imploding it...
New Harmony has a lot of historic sites, I spent a day there back in 2009 and took a few photos of the bridge and toll booth. InDOT has gone to all-electronic tolling for the IN 62 bridge near Mt. Vernon since the last time I was in that area. (My mom has a friend that reside near Mt. Vernon, IN due to employment-related reasons.)
INDOT offering $10 million toward new New Harmony bridge (http://www.courierpress.com/news/2012/jul/05/indot-offering-10-million-toward-new-new-harmony-b/)
I guess I still don't understand why IDOT (or some Illinois agency) shouldn't pay the same amount.
Is there any point to fixing this bridge 1,000 cars a day seems like its a waste of time and money
I believe the goal is to get IDOT to kick in a like amount, but I don't believe for a moment that IDOT has the ability or desire to do anything with it.
Just for kicks, I wonder if perhaps a floating bridge might work at New Harmony. It's something that just came to me and it's probably a dumb idea, but maybe it would be less expensive. Aside from pleasure boating, there's no need to deal with river navigation ... I dunno.
How do the costs of running a ferry compare to those of building a bridge?
a floating bridge would be cool!
Quote from: NE2 on August 08, 2012, 08:24:31 PM
How do the costs of running a ferry compare to those of building a bridge?
Someone asked about that a while back, and I'm not entirely sure the river is deep enough at that point to support one. I can tell you it's certainly not sufficient right now (what with the drought and all).
Quote
Illinois won't pony up any state or local tax dollars to help build a new bridge across the Wabash River near New Harmony, the state's top transportation official told Indiana.
Illinois won't offer money for New Harmony bridge (http://www.courierpress.com/news/2012/aug/14/illinois-wont-offer-money-new-harmony-bruidge/) (Evansville Courier & Press)
I can't remember where I read this but Illinois considers the new harmony bridge was replaced by the I64 crossing back in the 70's with the decommissioning of us460.
The Posey County commissioners voted today to accept the Harmony Way bridge from the White County Bridge Commission. The Courier & Press article on the transfer indicates that whatever money the Bridge Commission has left (about $15k) will go to Posey County, so I guess you could say they're paying to get rid of it.
http://www.courierpress.com/news/local-news/southwest-indiana/posey-county-to-assume-ownership-of-closed-new-harmony-bridge_07503377
Quote from: jnewkirk77 on August 19, 2014, 06:59:44 PM
The Posey County commissioners voted today to accept the Harmony Way bridge from the White County Bridge Commission. The Courier & Press article on the transfer indicates that whatever money the Bridge Commission has left (about $15k) will go to Posey County, so I guess you could say they're paying to get rid of it.
http://www.courierpress.com/news/local-news/southwest-indiana/posey-county-to-assume-ownership-of-closed-new-harmony-bridge_07503377
That bridge looks completely unsalvageable, I trust the state inspectors, they should tear that bridge down and build a new one. Repairing it will be way too costly.
And that may well be the end result. The thing that all of the local stakeholders agreed on was that to have any chance at either fixing and reopening or tearing down and building anew, it had to be turned over to a local or state government. Indiana would've kicked in $10 mil, but Illinois wouldn't (and in all probability couldn't) match that. New Harmony town government couldn't do much, and that basically left the county.
Now, it could be that it all comes to nothing in the end, but there is a distinct impression out there now that there is a light at the end of this tunnel, and it might not even be from an oncoming train. I hope they can pull something off here. It'd be nice to have that corridor back open again.
This caused me to go back and look at my photos from 2008. A couple of things I noticed:
1.) They've added a better barricade since then.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millenniumhwy.net%2F2008_STL_Day_3%2FImages%2F30.jpg&hash=dc1fba3776aa9f2045e97389259b41fb081548be)
2.) Why was the "Toll Bridge Pay Ahead" sign added since the bridge has been closed?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millenniumhwy.net%2F2008_STL_Day_3%2FImages%2F36.jpg&hash=6639b2d20e43cb11dc6187c91b48fe48584d7aaf)
Compare these to the photo accompanying the story:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmediaassets.courierpress.com%2Fphoto%2F2014%2F08%2F19%2FEVbridge2_7455462_ver1.0_640_480.jpg&hash=66ab2094d6e9ecef538c41904784fdedb13287f4)
You'd think past tolls collected would go to fixing and maintaining the bridge.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 20, 2014, 11:30:24 AM
This caused me to go back and look at my photos from 2008. A couple of things I noticed:
1.) They've added a better barricade since then.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millenniumhwy.net%2F2008_STL_Day_3%2FImages%2F30.jpg&hash=dc1fba3776aa9f2045e97389259b41fb081548be)
2.) Why was the "Toll Bridge Pay Ahead" sign added since the bridge has been closed?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millenniumhwy.net%2F2008_STL_Day_3%2FImages%2F36.jpg&hash=6639b2d20e43cb11dc6187c91b48fe48584d7aaf)
Compare these to the photo accompanying the story:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmediaassets.courierpress.com%2Fphoto%2F2014%2F08%2F19%2FEVbridge2_7455462_ver1.0_640_480.jpg&hash=66ab2094d6e9ecef538c41904784fdedb13287f4)
It reopened later in '08 after they added another pier made of steel on the Illinois side to supplement a concrete one that was cracked. It stayed open about four years before the last - and current - closure.
To US 41: Money from toll collections was used for payroll, a small stipend for the three commissioners, and the rest was used for upkeep. Problem is, toll revenue decreased to the point that the commission couldn't afford even band-aid fixes. It should be noted that they also had to pay property tax in Illinois and utility bills, too. They still get $100/month from the natural gas pipeline that runs underneath it and $150/month for the parallel fiber optic line, but that doesn't go very far.
Apparently they reopened it in 2008 shortly after I was there.
I think it opened in April '08; it was closed for about 9 months.
I would call it the Fifth Harmony bridge.
Quote from: dvferyance on June 10, 2016, 10:36:37 PM
I would call it the Fifth Harmony bridge.
Except it will never get finished since the contractor decided to work from home.
iPhone
this bridge will never be replaced right?
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 30, 2016, 08:38:59 PM
this bridge will never be replaced right?
I think you're right. The bridge is hardly needed, since I-64 crosses just a few miles upstream.
Are their any issues with farm equipment needing to cross the river there? Farm implements can't use I-64.
I'm not sure farm equipment ever have much reason to cross State lines. I could be wrong though.
Quote from: alecscradle on July 01, 2016, 04:12:07 PM
I'm not sure farm equipment ever have much reason to cross State lines. I could be wrong though.
When work was being done on the Shawneetown Bridge (KY 56/IL 13) a few years ago and a rather narrow lane restriction was in place, a ferry was put in place to shuttle oversized farm equipment across the Ohio River.
Quote from: alecscradle on July 01, 2016, 04:12:07 PM
I'm not sure farm equipment ever have much reason to cross State lines. I could be wrong though.
Ribeyre Island, on the west bank of the Wabash at New Harmony, is in Indiana, but can only be accessed from Illinois. With equipment, that's a pretty long round trip. And they've got to make it more often than a lot of us probably realize.
was this bridge ever owned by either DOT?
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 02, 2016, 05:10:57 PM
was this bridge ever owned by either DOT?
No. It was originally owned by the White County Bridge Commission. Then it was sold to Posey County.
maybe they could make it a ped bridge then.
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 03, 2016, 04:59:05 PM
maybe they could make it a ped bridge then.
What pedestrian traffic would it serve, exactly?
Quote from: adt1982 on July 04, 2016, 10:38:34 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 03, 2016, 04:59:05 PM
maybe they could make it a ped bridge then.
What pedestrian traffic would it serve, exactly?
More for recreational biking than walking
Since the bridge isn't open anymore I wonder if INDOT will try to decommission SR 66 into New Harmony?
Quote from: US 41 on July 05, 2016, 09:43:00 AM
Since the bridge isn't open anymore I wonder if INDOT will try to decommission SR 66 into New Harmony?
I would say no, because SR 66 always stopped short of the bridge.
Most likely Highway 66 will not be decommissioned since New Harmony is a state historic site. Where there is a state park or historic site involved, they usually do not decommission. Examples-IN 441 in Vincennes (George Rogers Clark), IN-269 (Harmony State Park) and IN-364 (Pike State Park).
The one time I was there, the "END IND 66" sign was right at the approach to the bridge.
When I was there last fall, the sign was still the one pictured in the GSV: https://goo.gl/maps/EyYMJAx99u72 (https://goo.gl/maps/EyYMJAx99u72)
Of course, now there is a "Road Closed" sign and barrier blocking the approach, just beyond the END 66 sign.
Go to Street View on the other side of the river, and you see signs for END IL 14, BEGIN IN 66.
Quote from: hbelkins on July 07, 2016, 03:22:51 PM
Go to Street View on the other side of the river, and you see signs for END IL 14, BEGIN IN 66.
Illinois' wishful thinking?
Since the bridge is/was owned by White County, it seems like both routes ending at their respective approaches would make the most sense. Though the IN state maps seem to all show 66 going up to the middle of the river.
I went over the bridge a couple of times in the last ten years, and always wondered how they were able to justify keeping the toll collectors in the booths with such low traffic volumes. I guess they weren't.
I don't know that this will absolutely kill New Harmony. They get a lot of traffic (it's an interesting place), and most of it likely comes from either Evansville or I-64, and both are easier to reach on the Indiana side of the river anyway.
Quote from: coatimundi on July 08, 2016, 11:19:21 AM
I don't know that this will absolutely kill New Harmony. They get a lot of traffic (it's an interesting place), and most of it likely comes from either Evansville or I-64, and both are easier to reach on the Indiana side of the river anyway.
My feelings exactly. We visited it on a day trip during a stay with our daughter in Evansville. It's a fascinating little town with its history and quirky little shops. We regret that we didn't get their earlier in the day to fully experience the history.
Side note. The last time I was across that bridge, there was still a dilapidated barn a few miles into Illinois with a faded "Meramec Caverns on US 66" ad painted on the side. Wonder if it is still standing?
Never understood how a private bridge continued along a federal highway. That bridge carried US 460 for many years.
Quote from: Captain Jack on July 13, 2016, 12:53:20 AMfederal highway ... US 460
:pan: :pan: :pan: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I remember driving across this bridge as a child when our family went to New Harmony (way before I-64 existed). I do remember my mom commenting on what a dilapidated bridge it was and us kids thought it was weird there was a toll bridge in the middle of nowhere.
My thoughts are that if this bridge was built in 1930, deemed structurally unsound by both INDOT and IDOT in 1955 (!!) and survived to take traffic with only marginal maintenance until 2008, it has done its job fairly well. It only took over 100 years before the PD&E Bridge up river at Grayville collapsed during a flood.
My guess is that scour will cause one of the cement pylons to settle and one of the spans will either topple or lean over. And that will be the end of it. I am surprised that hasn't occurred already with such low maintenance.
Sadly, vandals burned down the toll booth and building last month.
http://www.14news.com/story/32742856/fire-destroys-building-damages-toll-booth-on-illinois-side-of-harmony-way-bridge
Quote from: edwaleni on September 17, 2016, 05:37:56 PM
I remember driving across this bridge as a child when our family went to New Harmony (way before I-64 existed). I do remember my mom commenting on what a dilapidated bridge it was and us kids thought it was weird there was a toll bridge in the middle of nowhere.
My thoughts are that if this bridge was built in 1930, deemed structurally unsound by both INDOT and IDOT in 1955 (!!) and survived to take traffic with only marginal maintenance until 2008, it has done its job fairly well. It only took over 100 years before the PD&E Bridge up river at Grayville collapsed during a flood.
My guess is that scour will cause one of the cement pylons to settle and one of the spans will either topple or lean over. And that will be the end of it. I am surprised that hasn't occurred already with such low maintenance.
not to be an ass, but it's CONCRETE, cement is an ingredient.
Quote from: silverback1065 on September 18, 2016, 10:33:34 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on September 17, 2016, 05:37:56 PM
I remember driving across this bridge as a child when our family went to New Harmony (way before I-64 existed). I do remember my mom commenting on what a dilapidated bridge it was and us kids thought it was weird there was a toll bridge in the middle of nowhere.
My thoughts are that if this bridge was built in 1930, deemed structurally unsound by both INDOT and IDOT in 1955 (!!) and survived to take traffic with only marginal maintenance until 2008, it has done its job fairly well. It only took over 100 years before the PD&E Bridge up river at Grayville collapsed during a flood.
My guess is that scour will cause one of the cement pylons to settle and one of the spans will either topple or lean over. And that will be the end of it. I am surprised that hasn't occurred already with such low maintenance.
not to be an ass, but it's CONCRETE, cement is an ingredient.
I would expect no less from someone posting in a blog on highways. :pan:
IMO, the toll booth would likely be torn down anyway if the old bridge is ever rebuilt, along with demolishing the bridge's approaches and constructing new ones in their place.
That's what IDOT did when they rebuilt the McKinley bridge across the Mississippi River from St Louis. Except for the bridge's 3 main truss spans, the approaches and deck were torn down and replaced.
Though considering the trend of completely replacing old bridges in IL, I wouldn't be surprised if the entire New Harmony span is torn down and replaced with a brand new mostly concrete bridge. That's if a new bridge is built at all considering that both IL and IN would have to cooperate with the planning and funding for a new bridge.
Quote from: Lyon Wonder on September 28, 2016, 07:08:49 PM
IMO, the toll booth would likely be torn down anyway if the old bridge is ever rebuilt, along with demolishing the bridge's approaches and constructing new ones in their place.
That's what IDOT did when they rebuilt the McKinley bridge across the Mississippi River from St Louis. Except for the bridge's 3 main truss spans, the approaches and deck were torn down and replaced.
Though considering the trend of completely replacing old bridges in IL, I wouldn't be surprised if the entire New Harmony span is torn down and replaced with a brand new mostly concrete
bridge. That's if a new bridge is built at all considering that both IL and IN would have to cooperate with the planning and funding for a new bridge.
Back in the 1990's the Sullivan-Hutsonville Bridge was taken down and replaced with a concrete bridge. It too was a former toll bridge, but the toll booth had been removed years prior to it coming down.
https://bridgehunter.com/il/crawford/hutsonville/
https://www.harmonywaybridgeproject.com
https://revitalizationnews.com/article/45144/
Looks like there's a plan to turn it into a pedestrian bridge, possibly with 1 lane of vehicle traffic.
Also they got a law passed in Indiana creating a bridge authority, so the next step is to get ownership of the bridge transferred to that from the White County Bridge Commission and to figure out what Illinois' role is (if any) in the project.
If Indiana wants a bridge that badly, I would say build one to Ribeyre Island, which is still in Indiana, and connect it up to IL14 across the old channel which is more ditch today.
That bridge was built when there were still navigation requirements involved, but the Corps of Engineers turned those all over to the TVA for the Wabash south of Terre Haute before WW2.
The TVA has since retired all navigation on the lower Wabash, so any new bridge wouldnt be any bigger than a single span of I-64.
The documentary about the bridge was informative. The bridge does have an interesting history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3344&v=mmfob9uZzQ4
Quote from: 2trailertrucker on September 29, 2016, 06:00:01 AM
Quote from: Lyon Wonder on September 28, 2016, 07:08:49 PM
IMO, the toll booth would likely be torn down anyway if the old bridge is ever rebuilt, along with demolishing the bridge's approaches and constructing new ones in their place.
That's what IDOT did when they rebuilt the McKinley bridge across the Mississippi River from St Louis. Except for the bridge's 3 main truss spans, the approaches and deck were torn down and replaced.
Though considering the trend of completely replacing old bridges in IL, I wouldn't be surprised if the entire New Harmony span is torn down and replaced with a brand new mostly concrete
bridge. That's if a new bridge is built at all considering that both IL and IN would have to cooperate with the planning and funding for a new bridge.
Back in the 1990's the Sullivan-Hutsonville Bridge was taken down and replaced with a concrete bridge. It too was a former toll bridge, but the toll booth had been removed years prior to it coming down.
https://bridgehunter.com/il/crawford/hutsonville/
I remember crossing this bridge in 1968.
You could feel it shaking as you drove across.
The designer, Albert Steinman was reknown for coming up with low cost bridge designs in the 1930's due to the scarcity of contracts. But the bridge did hold up.
For those wondering why a suspension bridge on the Wabash? As noted before, the Wabash was a waterway for steamers at one time. Though I havent found any evidence a steamer ever came up after 1900.
The TVA closed the lower Wabash to commercial use just after WW2. The Corp of Engineers removed the dam at Mt Carmel which had made it navigible up to Terre Haute.
The former railroad bridge at Grayville which is visible from I-64, is actually a swing bridge. But I would guess it hasn't swung open in over 100 years. The channel moved west and caused the approach to collapse.
This is one reason so many older bridges over the Wabash had high elevations and their post WW2 replacements didnt.
Good news for the New Harmony Bridge.
Authority to the bridge has finally passed to 2 state based entities:
"New Harmony and Wabash River Bridge Authority" (Indiana) and the "Illinois New Harmony Bridge Authority" (Illinois).
Authority transfer had been held up due to various issues around the fact the bridge was tolled, but had a federally chartered entity running it.
Now that the federal charter has been formally dropped and 2 state entities have control, they met yesterday to align their interests and acquire new grants to initiate repairs.
The bridge has been closed for over 10 years. Officials say refurbishing the bridge would cost around twenty million dollars.
https://www.tristatehomepage.com/news/local-news/road-to-recovery-authorities-looking-to-pave-path-for-new-harmony-bridge/ (https://www.tristatehomepage.com/news/local-news/road-to-recovery-authorities-looking-to-pave-path-for-new-harmony-bridge/)
While interesting to look at, it is no longer very functional other than for cars. Weight limits keep anything Class C or larger off of it.
The bridge could be simply replaced for less than $100 million, probably less than $80 million for the reasons below.
This current bridge was built when the Wabash was still under federal controls for bridge heights to maintain navigation capabilities. Rights that were turned over to the TVA and eventually dropped.
The dam was removed & locks decommissioned at Grand Rapids (Mt Carmel, Illinois) which then stopped all commerical traffic.
So the bridge clearance requirements are flood based only which will make it way more cheaper to replace.
I would hate to see the New Harmony people get into a similar fate as the Sullivan-Hutsonville bridge over the Wabash farther north.
INDOT got to the point that they were inspecting it twice a week before finally forcing it to be demolished. Even today INDOT gets pretty testy when people bring it up even though it been gone for 30 years.
There's really no need to open that bridge back up. I-64 is close enough to provide a suitable detour.
Quote from: hbelkins on June 12, 2021, 11:01:41 PM
There's really no need to open that bridge back up. I-64 is close enough to provide a suitable detour.
I would rather have it as an alternative in case I-64 ends up closed due to an incident - it looks like a shorter detour route than the detour up through Mt. Carmel.
Quote from: Revive 755 on June 12, 2021, 11:13:16 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 12, 2021, 11:01:41 PM
There's really no need to open that bridge back up. I-64 is close enough to provide a suitable detour.
I would rather have it as an alternative in case I-64 ends up closed due to an incident - it looks like a shorter detour route than the detour up through Mt. Carmel.
Sounds like they'd have to build a completely new bridge for it to be a suitable I-64 detour -- i.e., carry truck traffic.
FWIW: The I-64 bridges over the Wabash are slated for a complete replacement. It is suffering from the same issues the railroad bridge next to it did. Sinking piers.
In 2013, INDOT and IDOT put it on their bridge watch list and is currently awaiting funding.
Here is the report from the last inspection done for the New Harmony bridge. (2014)
Good/Fair/Poor Condition: Poor
Status: Bridge closed to all traffic [K]
Average daily traffic: 1,065 [as of 2003]
Truck traffic: 2% of total traffic
Deck condition: Fair [5 out of 9]
Superstructure condition: Serious [3 out of 9]
Substructure condition: Critical [2 out of 9]
Underclearances appraisal: Superior to present desirable criteria [9]
Water adequacy appraisal: Basically intolerable requiring high priority of replacement [2]
Roadway alignment appraisal: Basically intolerable requiring high priority of replacement [2]
Channel protection: Bank protection is being eroded. River control devices and/or embankment have major damage. Trees and rush restrict the channel. [5]
Scour condition: Bridge is scour critical; field review indicates that extensive scour has occurred at bridge foundations. [2]
Sufficiency rating: 2.0
I would imagine most of that $25 million would go to shore up the piers in the river, fix the embankments for erosion and replace joints that have rusted out.
Again, I think the bridge should just be replaced and they should do it prior to the I-64 bridge replacement.
The requirements that drove the current design and layout just don't exist anymore.
This bridge was posted to the National Register of Historic Places back in 2007; it would take an act of God to get this bridge removed and replaced. In fact, I've had dealings with the Section 106 historical mitigation process and don't think that even God could get this bridge removed and replaced. It is really in very poor physical and structural condition. It's going to take a lot of money (far more than it's worth IMO) to even return this bridge to a minimal service level for passenger vehicles and light truck traffic.
No reasonable person should assume that this bridge could ever, ever serve as a replacement for the I-64 bridges. Just trying to divert all that traffic through the town of New Harmony alone would be unsustainable for any extended period of time.
edwaleni was correct in the earlier post regarding the transfer of ownership. However, this ownership is only to these two private authorities. To my knowledge, neither INDOT nor IDOT have stepped forward to take the overall lead over responsibility for future inspections or maintenance. In fact, INDOT specifically shut down State Route 66 at the bridge and has no intention at present to extend it over this bridge. Furthermore on the Illinois side, IDOT completely shut down and barricaded the nearest three bridges on State Road 14 approaching this bridge, effectively shutting down that segment of that state route.
IMO, it's going to be a long, long time before this bridge is ever re-opened. At best, I think this might get opened to pedestrian and bicycle use.
Quote from: EngineerTM on June 18, 2021, 01:18:27 PM
This bridge was posted to the National Register of Historic Places back in 2007; it would take an act of God to get this bridge removed and replaced. In fact, I've had dealings with the Section 106 historical mitigation process and don't think that even God could get this bridge removed and replaced. It is really in very poor physical and structural condition. It's going to take a lot of money (far more than it's worth IMO) to even return this bridge to a minimal service level for passenger vehicles and light truck traffic.
No reasonable person should assume that this bridge could ever, ever serve as a replacement for the I-64 bridges. Just trying to divert all that traffic through the town of New Harmony alone would be unsustainable for any extended period of time.
edwaleni was correct in the earlier post regarding the transfer of ownership. However, this ownership is only to these two private authorities. To my knowledge, neither INDOT nor IDOT have stepped forward to take the overall lead over responsibility for future inspections or maintenance. In fact, INDOT specifically shut down State Route 66 at the bridge and has no intention at present to extend it over this bridge. Furthermore on the Illinois side, IDOT completely shut down and barricaded the nearest three bridges on State Road 14 approaching this bridge, effectively shutting down that segment of that state route.
IMO, it's going to be a long, long time before this bridge is ever re-opened. At best, I think this might get opened to pedestrian and bicycle use.
If structural deterioration of the New Harmony Bridge gets to the point where it is immediate danger of collapse, someone will demolish it regardless of its historical status, as it will become an emergency situation and the rules for historical preservation go out the window at that point.
Quote from: abqtraveler on June 18, 2021, 04:39:27 PM
If structural deterioration of the New Harmony Bridge gets to the point where it is immediate danger of collapse, someone will demolish it regardless of its historical status, as it will become an emergency situation and the rules for historical preservation go out the window at that point.
True, I have removed two bridges eligible for the National Register in my career, one of them was even on Old Route 66 and had elevated significance. After advertising it for a responsible party to assume ownership and relocate it, if there are no takers, a photographer from Omaha will come out and take dozens of pictures for the National Archive, and then the contractor will remove it and sell it for scrap. The one complication here is that neither INDOT nor IDOT, who are experts in the process of removing historically significant bridges, has ownership. Also, there is no imminent danger to river navigation because (IIRC) barges don't go this far up the Wabash.
Quote from: Rick Powell on June 18, 2021, 04:53:18 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on June 18, 2021, 04:39:27 PM
If structural deterioration of the New Harmony Bridge gets to the point where it is immediate danger of collapse, someone will demolish it regardless of its historical status, as it will become an emergency situation and the rules for historical preservation go out the window at that point.
True, I have removed two bridges eligible for the National Register in my career, one of them was even on Old Route 66 and had elevated significance. After advertising it for a responsible party to assume ownership and relocate it, if there are no takers, a photographer from Omaha will come out and take dozens of pictures for the National Archive, and then the contractor will remove it and sell it for scrap. The one complication here is that neither INDOT nor IDOT, who are experts in the process of removing historically significant bridges, has ownership. Also, there is no imminent danger to river navigation because (IIRC) barges don't go this far up the Wabash.
We've done the historic bridge giveaway attempt several times over the years, with no success. Until possibly this year. We may have found a taker for this bridge.
https://lnks.gd/2/NRqH-r
https://lnks.gd/2/P7PZ3W
https://lnks.gd/2/PqMRP9
no one would ever use this as an alternative to 64
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 19, 2021, 01:03:52 AM
no one would ever use this as an alternative to 64
They would if 64 was closed or there were lengthy delays.
SR 64 and 62 are better.
Thanks to some links sent to me I did some historical research on this bridge.
There have been several bills in the Indiana Legislature to fund the remediation of this bridge or to buy it outright since the 1960's.
Many of those bills never got out of committee, but the few that did and actually got onto the floor were always blocked by a political contingent led by Indianapolis.
When SW Indiana legislators would get a infrastructure bill on the floor, anything that included the New Harmony Bridge was immediately blocked.
Because of this and all of the delays in getting a better highway built between Indy and Evansville, it has fostered this posture by those who live in the area that there is some kind of grudge against economic development in SW Indiana.
Yes, they got the Toyota plant in Princeton, but it took this herculean effort by Mitch Daniels to "get it done" on I-69. There were people still trying to block it way back when.
This and New Harmony just sends a vibe that people in the area just don't get the same level of importance to the greater whole of Indiana.
IDOT who now owns the "Cannonball Bridge" between St Francisville and Indiana, gets immediate cooperation from Indiana when looking at a replacement to that 1 lane former railroad bridge.
But when it comes to the New Harmony Bridge, Indiana doesn't want to have anything to do with it legislatively. It's an interesting irony.
Quote from: edwaleni on June 20, 2021, 11:49:13 PM
Thanks to some links sent to me I did some historical research on this bridge.
There have been several bills in the Indiana Legislature to fund the remediation of this bridge or to buy it outright since the 1960's.
Many of those bills never got out of committee, but the few that did and actually got onto the floor were always blocked by a political contingent led by Indianapolis.
When SW Indiana legislators would get a infrastructure bill on the floor, anything that included the New Harmony Bridge was immediately blocked.
Because of this and all of the delays in getting a better highway built between Indy and Evansville, it has fostered this posture by those who live in the area that there is some kind of grudge against economic development in SW Indiana.
Yes, they got the Toyota plant in Princeton, but it took this herculean effort by Mitch Daniels to "get it done" on I-69. There were people still trying to block it way back when.
This and New Harmony just sends a vibe that people in the area just don't get the same level of importance to the greater whole of Indiana.
IDOT who now owns the "Cannonball Bridge" between St Francisville and Indiana, gets immediate cooperation from Indiana when looking at a replacement to that 1 lane former railroad bridge.
But when it comes to the New Harmony Bridge, Indiana doesn't want to have anything to do with it legislatively. It's an interesting irony.
They're going to replace that weird Cannonball Bridge? Does anyone actually use it?! :-D
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 20, 2021, 11:57:11 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on June 20, 2021, 11:49:13 PM
Thanks to some links sent to me I did some historical research on this bridge.
There have been several bills in the Indiana Legislature to fund the remediation of this bridge or to buy it outright since the 1960's.
Many of those bills never got out of committee, but the few that did and actually got onto the floor were always blocked by a political contingent led by Indianapolis.
When SW Indiana legislators would get a infrastructure bill on the floor, anything that included the New Harmony Bridge was immediately blocked.
Because of this and all of the delays in getting a better highway built between Indy and Evansville, it has fostered this posture by those who live in the area that there is some kind of grudge against economic development in SW Indiana.
Yes, they got the Toyota plant in Princeton, but it took this herculean effort by Mitch Daniels to "get it done" on I-69. There were people still trying to block it way back when.
This and New Harmony just sends a vibe that people in the area just don't get the same level of importance to the greater whole of Indiana.
IDOT who now owns the "Cannonball Bridge" between St Francisville and Indiana, gets immediate cooperation from Indiana when looking at a replacement to that 1 lane former railroad bridge.
But when it comes to the New Harmony Bridge, Indiana doesn't want to have anything to do with it legislatively. It's an interesting irony.
They're going to replace that weird Cannonball Bridge? Does anyone actually use it?! :-D
Yes sir. IDOT tracks the volume on their bridge reports now.
There is some movement to start putting funding together to keep it sustainable until a replacement can be put together.
Quote from: edwaleni on June 21, 2021, 01:14:36 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 20, 2021, 11:57:11 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on June 20, 2021, 11:49:13 PM
Thanks to some links sent to me I did some historical research on this bridge.
There have been several bills in the Indiana Legislature to fund the remediation of this bridge or to buy it outright since the 1960's.
Many of those bills never got out of committee, but the few that did and actually got onto the floor were always blocked by a political contingent led by Indianapolis.
When SW Indiana legislators would get a infrastructure bill on the floor, anything that included the New Harmony Bridge was immediately blocked.
Because of this and all of the delays in getting a better highway built between Indy and Evansville, it has fostered this posture by those who live in the area that there is some kind of grudge against economic development in SW Indiana.
Yes, they got the Toyota plant in Princeton, but it took this herculean effort by Mitch Daniels to "get it done" on I-69. There were people still trying to block it way back when.
This and New Harmony just sends a vibe that people in the area just don't get the same level of importance to the greater whole of Indiana.
IDOT who now owns the "Cannonball Bridge" between St Francisville and Indiana, gets immediate cooperation from Indiana when looking at a replacement to that 1 lane former railroad bridge.
But when it comes to the New Harmony Bridge, Indiana doesn't want to have anything to do with it legislatively. It's an interesting irony.
They're going to replace that weird Cannonball Bridge? Does anyone actually use it?! :-D
Yes sir. IDOT tracks the volume on their bridge reports now.
There is some movement to start putting funding together to keep it sustainable until a replacement can be put together.
My goodness I'd love to see the traffic counts on that thing! Probably the weirdest bridge I've ever seen! Looks so scary to drive on!
Pixel 5
Quote from: edwaleni on June 20, 2021, 11:49:13 PM
Thanks to some links sent to me I did some historical research on this bridge.
There have been several bills in the Indiana Legislature to fund the remediation of this bridge or to buy it outright since the 1960's.
Many of those bills never got out of committee, but the few that did and actually got onto the floor were always blocked by a political contingent led by Indianapolis.
When SW Indiana legislators would get a infrastructure bill on the floor, anything that included the New Harmony Bridge was immediately blocked.
Because of this and all of the delays in getting a better highway built between Indy and Evansville, it has fostered this posture by those who live in the area that there is some kind of grudge against economic development in SW Indiana.
Yes, they got the Toyota plant in Princeton, but it took this herculean effort by Mitch Daniels to "get it done" on I-69. There were people still trying to block it way back when.
This and New Harmony just sends a vibe that people in the area just don't get the same level of importance to the greater whole of Indiana.
IDOT who now owns the "Cannonball Bridge" between St Francisville and Indiana, gets immediate cooperation from Indiana when looking at a replacement to that 1 lane former railroad bridge.
But when it comes to the New Harmony Bridge, Indiana doesn't want to have anything to do with it legislatively. It's an interesting irony.
There is absolutely the vibe that this area doesn't get the same level of importance as the rest of the state. Honestly, from my view it's like INDOT assigns their most junior engineers to work on projects in this area based on nothing more than traffic counts and theories from an office in Indianapolis. It's painfully obvious none of them drive any of these roads on any basis, because it's clear they don't understand how the traffic is actually flowing on them. All you really have to do is look at INDOTs "improvement" history in this area.
One of the more recent examples is the Lloyd/41 interchange. INDOT's initial plan to eliminate the two stoplights on the Lloyd was to literally rotate the intersection 90 degrees so the two stoplights were on 41, making four stoplights in a 0.5 mile stretch of 41. It was one of the most asinine and honestly insulting plans I've ever seen. Thankfully, our mayor was awake and apparently threw enough of a fit to get it changed to a full cloverleaf like any intersection of two six-lane, divided, major arterials should be.
A less egregious example includes the Lloyd/Fulton interchange, where the westbound on-ramp dumps two merged lanes worth of traffic onto the Lloyd with one of the shortest and most awkward acceleration/merging lanes I've ever seen. There's really no option there but to hope traffic in the far right lane of the Lloyd moves over, or else you have to pretty much gun it and recklessly shoot a gap between cars. That project also closed the westbound on-ramp at Mary St, leaving two miles between on-ramps for westbound traffic.
When Diamond Ave/SR 66 was reconstructed, for some reason INDOT didn't think it was necessary to put any type of barrier wall, cabling, or even grass inbetween Pigeon Creek and Mesker Park Dr. That always struck me as odd and I've never seen a "median" on a "divided" highway like that anywhere else before.
Then you look at what they're planning on doing to the Lloyd now. Instead of grade-separating Lloyd/Burkhardt and creating an interchange a la Lloyd/Green River, INDOT is going to make one of the busiest intersections in the entire city (during shopping season with unfamiliar, out-of-town, rural-accustomed drivers no less) their testing ground for displaced left turns. As if that wasn't enough, they're going to hammer the idea home with the same concept at Lloyd/Stockwell, Lloyd/Cross Pointe (potentially fixing a problem that isn't broken by adding a stoplight at the end of the ramp from SB I-69 to WB Lloyd), Lloyd/Red Bank, and Lloyd/Boehne Camp. They're going to completely eliminate left turn movements at Lloyd/Vann and call it a "minor" improvement. And in spending $100 millon and years on this project, they're not going to touch adding a third lane to Lloyd between Barker and University Parkway despite the need to handle the heavy USI traffic (I mean, Jesus Christ have they looked at the accident rates on that stretch of road? Especially west of Boehne Camp? There's injury accidents there nearly every day).
Anyway, I got on a rant, but this new project is just another in a line of examples of INDOT half-assing anything they try in this region. There's no way a project like this would be acceptable in Marion or Hamilton Counties, and that's pretty much what this region's opinion of INDOT (and the entire state administration for that matter) boils down to.
Quote from: evvroads on June 21, 2021, 11:51:43 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on June 20, 2021, 11:49:13 PM
Thanks to some links sent to me I did some historical research on this bridge.
There have been several bills in the Indiana Legislature to fund the remediation of this bridge or to buy it outright since the 1960's.
Many of those bills never got out of committee, but the few that did and actually got onto the floor were always blocked by a political contingent led by Indianapolis.
When SW Indiana legislators would get a infrastructure bill on the floor, anything that included the New Harmony Bridge was immediately blocked.
Because of this and all of the delays in getting a better highway built between Indy and Evansville, it has fostered this posture by those who live in the area that there is some kind of grudge against economic development in SW Indiana.
Yes, they got the Toyota plant in Princeton, but it took this herculean effort by Mitch Daniels to "get it done" on I-69. There were people still trying to block it way back when.
This and New Harmony just sends a vibe that people in the area just don't get the same level of importance to the greater whole of Indiana.
IDOT who now owns the "Cannonball Bridge" between St Francisville and Indiana, gets immediate cooperation from Indiana when looking at a replacement to that 1 lane former railroad bridge.
But when it comes to the New Harmony Bridge, Indiana doesn't want to have anything to do with it legislatively. It's an interesting irony.
There is absolutely the vibe that this area doesn't get the same level of importance as the rest of the state. Honestly, from my view it's like INDOT assigns their most junior engineers to work on projects in this area based on nothing more than traffic counts and theories from an office in Indianapolis. It's painfully obvious none of them drive any of these roads on any basis, because it's clear they don't understand how the traffic is actually flowing on them. All you really have to do is look at INDOTs "improvement" history in this area.
One of the more recent examples is the Lloyd/41 interchange. INDOT's initial plan to eliminate the two stoplights on the Lloyd was to literally rotate the intersection 90 degrees so the two stoplights were on 41, making four stoplights in a 0.5 mile stretch of 41. It was one of the most asinine and honestly insulting plans I've ever seen. Thankfully, our mayor was awake and apparently threw enough of a fit to get it changed to a full cloverleaf like any intersection of two six-lane, divided, major arterials should be.
A less egregious example includes the Lloyd/Fulton interchange, where the westbound on-ramp dumps two merged lanes worth of traffic onto the Lloyd with one of the shortest and most awkward acceleration/merging lanes I've ever seen. There's really no option there but to hope traffic in the far right lane of the Lloyd moves over, or else you have to pretty much gun it and recklessly shoot a gap between cars. That project also closed the westbound on-ramp at Mary St, leaving two miles between on-ramps for westbound traffic.
When Diamond Ave/SR 66 was reconstructed, for some reason INDOT didn't think it was necessary to put any type of barrier wall, cabling, or even grass inbetween Pigeon Creek and Mesker Park Dr. That always struck me as odd and I've never seen a "median" on a "divided" highway like that anywhere else before.
Then you look at what they're planning on doing to the Lloyd now. Instead of grade-separating Lloyd/Burkhardt and creating an interchange a la Lloyd/Green River, INDOT is going to make one of the busiest intersections in the entire city (during shopping season with unfamiliar, out-of-town, rural-accustomed drivers no less) their testing ground for displaced left turns. As if that wasn't enough, they're going to hammer the idea home with the same concept at Lloyd/Stockwell, Lloyd/Cross Pointe (potentially fixing a problem that isn't broken by adding a stoplight at the end of the ramp from SB I-69 to WB Lloyd), Lloyd/Red Bank, and Lloyd/Boehne Camp. They're going to completely eliminate left turn movements at Lloyd/Vann and call it a "minor" improvement. And in spending $100 millon and years on this project, they're not going to touch adding a third lane to Lloyd between Barker and University Parkway despite the need to handle the heavy USI traffic (I mean, Jesus Christ have they looked at the accident rates on that stretch of road? Especially west of Boehne Camp? There's injury accidents there nearly every day).
Anyway, I got on a rant, but this new project is just another in a line of examples of INDOT half-assing anything they try in this region. There's no way a project like this would be acceptable in Marion or Hamilton Counties, and that's pretty much what this region's opinion of INDOT (and the entire state administration for that matter) boils down to.
I agree with everything you say here. But you also have to add the Lake County area to this list too. But honestly Eville is at the bottom and honestly always has. I never understood why Evansville seems to always get the shaft with everything. Those displaced left turns are dumb as hell, there shouldn't be any signals at all on the Lloyd from USI to SR 261. I also can't stand the full cloverleaf with 1 stop light bullshit they do all over the state. 69 coming to Evansville surprised me because I didn't think they cared enough to do that. Add to it the new design of 69 at veterans adding a signal for some dumb reason. Sometimes INDOT's "let's save money" just creates a mess that they have to fix to the original idea decades later.
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 22, 2021, 12:42:58 AM
Quote from: evvroads on June 21, 2021, 11:51:43 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on June 20, 2021, 11:49:13 PM
Thanks to some links sent to me I did some historical research on this bridge.
There have been several bills in the Indiana Legislature to fund the remediation of this bridge or to buy it outright since the 1960's.
Many of those bills never got out of committee, but the few that did and actually got onto the floor were always blocked by a political contingent led by Indianapolis.
When SW Indiana legislators would get a infrastructure bill on the floor, anything that included the New Harmony Bridge was immediately blocked.
Because of this and all of the delays in getting a better highway built between Indy and Evansville, it has fostered this posture by those who live in the area that there is some kind of grudge against economic development in SW Indiana.
Yes, they got the Toyota plant in Princeton, but it took this herculean effort by Mitch Daniels to "get it done" on I-69. There were people still trying to block it way back when.
This and New Harmony just sends a vibe that people in the area just don't get the same level of importance to the greater whole of Indiana.
IDOT who now owns the "Cannonball Bridge" between St Francisville and Indiana, gets immediate cooperation from Indiana when looking at a replacement to that 1 lane former railroad bridge.
But when it comes to the New Harmony Bridge, Indiana doesn't want to have anything to do with it legislatively. It's an interesting irony.
There is absolutely the vibe that this area doesn't get the same level of importance as the rest of the state. Honestly, from my view it's like INDOT assigns their most junior engineers to work on projects in this area based on nothing more than traffic counts and theories from an office in Indianapolis. It's painfully obvious none of them drive any of these roads on any basis, because it's clear they don't understand how the traffic is actually flowing on them. All you really have to do is look at INDOTs "improvement" history in this area.
One of the more recent examples is the Lloyd/41 interchange. INDOT's initial plan to eliminate the two stoplights on the Lloyd was to literally rotate the intersection 90 degrees so the two stoplights were on 41, making four stoplights in a 0.5 mile stretch of 41. It was one of the most asinine and honestly insulting plans I've ever seen. Thankfully, our mayor was awake and apparently threw enough of a fit to get it changed to a full cloverleaf like any intersection of two six-lane, divided, major arterials should be.
A less egregious example includes the Lloyd/Fulton interchange, where the westbound on-ramp dumps two merged lanes worth of traffic onto the Lloyd with one of the shortest and most awkward acceleration/merging lanes I've ever seen. There's really no option there but to hope traffic in the far right lane of the Lloyd moves over, or else you have to pretty much gun it and recklessly shoot a gap between cars. That project also closed the westbound on-ramp at Mary St, leaving two miles between on-ramps for westbound traffic.
When Diamond Ave/SR 66 was reconstructed, for some reason INDOT didn't think it was necessary to put any type of barrier wall, cabling, or even grass inbetween Pigeon Creek and Mesker Park Dr. That always struck me as odd and I've never seen a "median" on a "divided" highway like that anywhere else before.
Then you look at what they're planning on doing to the Lloyd now. Instead of grade-separating Lloyd/Burkhardt and creating an interchange a la Lloyd/Green River, INDOT is going to make one of the busiest intersections in the entire city (during shopping season with unfamiliar, out-of-town, rural-accustomed drivers no less) their testing ground for displaced left turns. As if that wasn't enough, they're going to hammer the idea home with the same concept at Lloyd/Stockwell, Lloyd/Cross Pointe (potentially fixing a problem that isn't broken by adding a stoplight at the end of the ramp from SB I-69 to WB Lloyd), Lloyd/Red Bank, and Lloyd/Boehne Camp. They're going to completely eliminate left turn movements at Lloyd/Vann and call it a "minor" improvement. And in spending $100 millon and years on this project, they're not going to touch adding a third lane to Lloyd between Barker and University Parkway despite the need to handle the heavy USI traffic (I mean, Jesus Christ have they looked at the accident rates on that stretch of road? Especially west of Boehne Camp? There's injury accidents there nearly every day).
Anyway, I got on a rant, but this new project is just another in a line of examples of INDOT half-assing anything they try in this region. There's no way a project like this would be acceptable in Marion or Hamilton Counties, and that's pretty much what this region's opinion of INDOT (and the entire state administration for that matter) boils down to.
I agree with everything you say here. But you also have to add the Lake County area to this list too. But honestly Eville is at the bottom and honestly always has. I never understood why Evansville seems to always get the shaft with everything. Those displaced left turns are dumb as hell, there shouldn't be any signals at all on the Lloyd from USI to SR 261. I also can't stand the full cloverleaf with 1 stop light bullshit they do all over the state. 69 coming to Evansville surprised me because I didn't think they cared enough to do that. Add to it the new design of 69 at veterans adding a signal for some dumb reason. Sometimes INDOT's "let's save money" just creates a mess that they have to fix to the original idea decades later.
Oh, I'm sure we're not alone in getting the shaft from Indy. I know Indy is the capital and all, but I have yet to figure out why they seem to actively shun other parts of the state.
I forsee the displaced left turns being a disaster. Especially during Christmas season, we're going to get a bunch of out-of-town shoppers from rural southern Illinois and western Kentucky who are going to be completely confused at an interchange that's non-intuitive and completely foreign to them. I hope I'm wrong, but I predict a significant increase in wrong-way drivers and with accidents caused by people trying to make left turns from the through lanes at the actual intersection. Hopefully people figure it out, but I've been around drivers in this area for too long. Honestly, if the displaced left turns are the best design they can give us, I think most people would rather they just save the money and leave it the hell alone. Do it right or not at all kind of thing.
I'm certainly not a huge fan of the proposed stoplight on the new I-69/Veterans Memorial interchange, but I do think it's an improvement over the weird looping ramp they had before. It would have forced traffic leaving downtown Evansville on eastbound Veterans/northbound I-69 to do a full 360 loop before continuing on northbound I-69. They are also decreasing the shoulder widths on the new bridge, eliminating any possibility of restriping it to make it 6 lanes. I'm not sure how much money that saves them, but I'm sure in future years when the 100+ year old 41 crossing needs to be replaced that will be yet another example of infrastructure short-sightedness in this part of the state.
Quote from: evvroads on June 22, 2021, 11:20:07 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 22, 2021, 12:42:58 AM
Quote from: evvroads on June 21, 2021, 11:51:43 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on June 20, 2021, 11:49:13 PM
Thanks to some links sent to me I did some historical research on this bridge.
There have been several bills in the Indiana Legislature to fund the remediation of this bridge or to buy it outright since the 1960's.
Many of those bills never got out of committee, but the few that did and actually got onto the floor were always blocked by a political contingent led by Indianapolis.
When SW Indiana legislators would get a infrastructure bill on the floor, anything that included the New Harmony Bridge was immediately blocked.
Because of this and all of the delays in getting a better highway built between Indy and Evansville, it has fostered this posture by those who live in the area that there is some kind of grudge against economic development in SW Indiana.
Yes, they got the Toyota plant in Princeton, but it took this herculean effort by Mitch Daniels to "get it done" on I-69. There were people still trying to block it way back when.
This and New Harmony just sends a vibe that people in the area just don't get the same level of importance to the greater whole of Indiana.
IDOT who now owns the "Cannonball Bridge" between St Francisville and Indiana, gets immediate cooperation from Indiana when looking at a replacement to that 1 lane former railroad bridge.
But when it comes to the New Harmony Bridge, Indiana doesn't want to have anything to do with it legislatively. It's an interesting irony.
There is absolutely the vibe that this area doesn't get the same level of importance as the rest of the state. Honestly, from my view it's like INDOT assigns their most junior engineers to work on projects in this area based on nothing more than traffic counts and theories from an office in Indianapolis. It's painfully obvious none of them drive any of these roads on any basis, because it's clear they don't understand how the traffic is actually flowing on them. All you really have to do is look at INDOTs "improvement" history in this area.
One of the more recent examples is the Lloyd/41 interchange. INDOT's initial plan to eliminate the two stoplights on the Lloyd was to literally rotate the intersection 90 degrees so the two stoplights were on 41, making four stoplights in a 0.5 mile stretch of 41. It was one of the most asinine and honestly insulting plans I've ever seen. Thankfully, our mayor was awake and apparently threw enough of a fit to get it changed to a full cloverleaf like any intersection of two six-lane, divided, major arterials should be.
A less egregious example includes the Lloyd/Fulton interchange, where the westbound on-ramp dumps two merged lanes worth of traffic onto the Lloyd with one of the shortest and most awkward acceleration/merging lanes I've ever seen. There's really no option there but to hope traffic in the far right lane of the Lloyd moves over, or else you have to pretty much gun it and recklessly shoot a gap between cars. That project also closed the westbound on-ramp at Mary St, leaving two miles between on-ramps for westbound traffic.
When Diamond Ave/SR 66 was reconstructed, for some reason INDOT didn't think it was necessary to put any type of barrier wall, cabling, or even grass inbetween Pigeon Creek and Mesker Park Dr. That always struck me as odd and I've never seen a "median" on a "divided" highway like that anywhere else before.
Then you look at what they're planning on doing to the Lloyd now. Instead of grade-separating Lloyd/Burkhardt and creating an interchange a la Lloyd/Green River, INDOT is going to make one of the busiest intersections in the entire city (during shopping season with unfamiliar, out-of-town, rural-accustomed drivers no less) their testing ground for displaced left turns. As if that wasn't enough, they're going to hammer the idea home with the same concept at Lloyd/Stockwell, Lloyd/Cross Pointe (potentially fixing a problem that isn't broken by adding a stoplight at the end of the ramp from SB I-69 to WB Lloyd), Lloyd/Red Bank, and Lloyd/Boehne Camp. They're going to completely eliminate left turn movements at Lloyd/Vann and call it a "minor" improvement. And in spending $100 millon and years on this project, they're not going to touch adding a third lane to Lloyd between Barker and University Parkway despite the need to handle the heavy USI traffic (I mean, Jesus Christ have they looked at the accident rates on that stretch of road? Especially west of Boehne Camp? There's injury accidents there nearly every day).
Anyway, I got on a rant, but this new project is just another in a line of examples of INDOT half-assing anything they try in this region. There's no way a project like this would be acceptable in Marion or Hamilton Counties, and that's pretty much what this region's opinion of INDOT (and the entire state administration for that matter) boils down to.
I agree with everything you say here. But you also have to add the Lake County area to this list too. But honestly Eville is at the bottom and honestly always has. I never understood why Evansville seems to always get the shaft with everything. Those displaced left turns are dumb as hell, there shouldn't be any signals at all on the Lloyd from USI to SR 261. I also can't stand the full cloverleaf with 1 stop light bullshit they do all over the state. 69 coming to Evansville surprised me because I didn't think they cared enough to do that. Add to it the new design of 69 at veterans adding a signal for some dumb reason. Sometimes INDOT's "let's save money" just creates a mess that they have to fix to the original idea decades later.
Oh, I'm sure we're not alone in getting the shaft from Indy. I know Indy is the capital and all, but I have yet to figure out why they seem to actively shun other parts of the state.
I forsee the displaced left turns being a disaster. Especially during Christmas season, we're going to get a bunch of out-of-town shoppers from rural southern Illinois and western Kentucky who are going to be completely confused at an interchange that's non-intuitive and completely foreign to them. I hope I'm wrong, but I predict a significant increase in wrong-way drivers and with accidents caused by people trying to make left turns from the through lanes at the actual intersection. Hopefully people figure it out, but I've been around drivers in this area for too long. Honestly, if the displaced left turns are the best design they can give us, I think most people would rather they just save the money and leave it the hell alone. Do it right or not at all kind of thing.
I'm certainly not a huge fan of the proposed stoplight on the new I-69/Veterans Memorial interchange, but I do think it's an improvement over the weird looping ramp they had before. It would have forced traffic leaving downtown Evansville on eastbound Veterans/northbound I-69 to do a full 360 loop before continuing on northbound I-69. They are also decreasing the shoulder widths on the new bridge, eliminating any possibility of restriping it to make it 6 lanes. I'm not sure how much money that saves them, but I'm sure in future years when the 100+ year old 41 crossing needs to be replaced that will be yet another example of infrastructure short-sightedness in this part of the state.
Your "rants" could have come from my mouth verbatim over the past few years. The state built the Lloyd Expressway in the mid 80s and put in an overpass over Green River Road, only to tear it out and decide to build it higher to try out their new one point traffic light underneath (which does work). They could have used that money to partially fund the needed overpass at Burkhardt Road, which most local people would have said was needed at the time of the original construction, and when several parcels of land were easily available. We also were treated to the test of the advisory signs which were rarely used, but now are in Indianapolis. All of ours were pulled out, so that cost was wasted here. We also have three state highway roundabouts (IN-61 in Warrick County); no doubt the legacy of a young engineer from Carmel, IN.
As for the Cannonball, IDOT tracks 500 movements a month on it currently.
As for the New Harmony Bridge and Indiana avoiding it.
Toll revenue on the bridge dropped into oblivion after INDOT upgraded IN-69 between New Harmony to Griffin.
When they upgraded IN-69, they replaced what was an old weight restricted bridge over the Black River.
This made the bridge at New Harmony redundant as it pushed heavy traffic up to the crossing at I-64.
Traffic analysis showed that trucks coming and going out of Mt Vernon, Indiana were using the New Harmony to reach I-64 in Illinois due to the weight restriction on IN-69.
When the bridge was replaced, Mt Vernon traffic immediately relocated to it and used it to reach I-64.
So INDOT essentially bypassed the bridge by making it easier to cross at I-64.
500 cars A MONTH?! that's not worth replacing.
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 23, 2021, 12:38:27 AM
500 cars A MONTH?! that's not worth replacing.
Apparently with the decline in Lawrenceville, (25% in last 30 years) more people from St Francisville are going/working in Vincennes.