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"TURNPIKE RIDE - Gasoline motor powered cars in which you drive your way to FUN."

Camden Park, west of Huntington, West Virginia, 1967.

Camden Park remains open, although the taxman backed up a truck several years ago and hauled off everything that wasn't nailed down, as they had been let slide on their taxes for decades.  The year round skating rink and office also had a fire of suspiscious origin. 

Among the things that are gone are the horses on the carosel, which, apparently unknown to management, were hand carved items from the early 1900s worth 10s of 1000s of $$ each.  Rich folk have them repainted and put on display.    Replaced with plastic.  The 1950s era wooden roller coaster is down to one car, as they canibalized the other to keep it running (parts have not been available for years).  When it goes, I suppose the place will close.   Pretty much now its old carnival rides too worn out to travel any more.

BTW, when Marshall U. had a real buffalo mascot (Marco) he lived in a pen in the infield of the WV Turnpike ride.  He has long since passed away, as has the ride.   He once escaped during a game at recently astroturfed Fairfield Stadium in the early 70, and went into a rampage when he found out the grass wasn't edible. 

I never did know why they called the ride the "WV Turnpike" (it even had signage from the era when the turnpike had its own route marker), since the place marketed at all three states (its on the banks of the Ohio and only 3 miles from the Big Sandy), no where near the actual route, and I-64, less than 100 yards from the place, was finished by then.

Quote from: SP Cook on March 17, 2013, 02:14:15 PM
Camden Park remains open, although the taxman backed up a truck several years ago and hauled off everything that wasn't nailed down, as they had been let slide on their taxes for decades.  The year round skating rink and office also had a fire of suspiscious origin. 

Among the things that are gone are the horses on the carosel, which, apparently unknown to management, were hand carved items from the early 1900s worth 10s of 1000s of $$ each.  Rich folk have them repainted and put on display.    Replaced with plastic.  The 1950s era wooden roller coaster is down to one car, as they canibalized the other to keep it running (parts have not been available for years).  When it goes, I suppose the place will close.   Pretty much now its old carnival rides too worn out to travel any more.

BTW, when Marshall U. had a real buffalo mascot (Marco) he lived in a pen in the infield of the WV Turnpike ride.  He has long since passed away, as has the ride.   He once escaped during a game at recently astroturfed Fairfield Stadium in the early 70, and went into a rampage when he found out the grass wasn't edible. 

I never did know why they called the ride the "WV Turnpike" (it even had signage from the era when the turnpike had its own route marker), since the place marketed at all three states (its on the banks of the Ohio and only 3 miles from the Big Sandy), no where near the actual route, and I-64, less than 100 yards from the place, was finished by then.

Funny, the local (Rochester) amusement park is able to keep their wooden roller coasters going just fine.  Why are parts so hard to come by in WV but not NY?

Are you referring to SeaBreeze or Roseland (in Canandaigua)?

Either the park itself really does not want to invest in parts or because the nearest theme/amusement parks are at least 150 miles away for them to "borrow" parts they need.  "Order parts?  What's that?"

Back in the day we had this thing called craftsmen.  You handed them a project and they made from scratch whatever it was that the project needed.  Nowadays we couldn't even find someone to replace lightbulbs when they burn out it seems.  This nation of ours is doomed.  Think "Idiocracy".

Rick

Quote from: SP Cook on March 17, 2013, 02:14:15 PM
I never did know why they called the ride the "WV Turnpike" (it even had signage from the era when the turnpike had its own route marker).

Cedar Point in Sandusky, OH has a "Turnpike" ride of their own, as did Kennywood Amusement Park in Pittsburgh until a few years ago.  At least many of the people who came to those amusement parks drove on or crossed their state's Turnpikes to get there.  I guess they called them turnpikes since they were the first superhighways in their respective areas and the way these tracks would loop over and under themselves, it somewhat resembled a turnpike exit.

I've never seen an amusement park's car track like Camden's in West Virginia where there was no rail in the center of the track to keep the car from straying too far from the center of the "roadway".  Camden's looks like a 1-1/2 lane high speed go-kart track to me.

Quote

Funny, the local (Rochester) amusement park is able to keep their wooden roller coasters going just fine.  Why are parts so hard to come by in WV but not NY?

Mainly because the company that built Camden Park's went broke in 1973, and only built a few full sized roller coasters anyway (it mostly specialized in children's rides) leaving behind a very limited supply of parts.  In any event the park's finacial condition is such that buying much of anything is out of the question.

QuoteI've never seen an amusement park's car track like Camden's in West Virginia where there was no rail in the center of the track to keep the car from straying too far from the center of the "roadway".  Camden's looks like a 1-1/2 lane high speed go-kart track to me.

The design was that you were kept on the track via the guardrails.  The cars were also just wide enough that you could not pass.  But, within that you were really "driving", which was a selling point to kids in that era.

You could bump the car in front of you. 

Quote from: amroad17 on March 17, 2013, 07:33:13 PM
Are you referring to SeaBreeze or Roseland (in Canandaigua)?

Either the park itself really does not want to invest in parts or because the nearest theme/amusement parks are at least 150 miles away for them to "borrow" parts they need.  "Order parts?  What's that?"

SeaBreeze.  Roseland is a waterpark and was built within my lifetime, so probably not much within the realm of wooden roller coasters there.

67 isn't that long ago right?

Might be my birth year.

A similar ride operated at Hersheypark (then "Hershey Park") from 1960 to 1972. It was called simply the "Turnpike." I remember riding on it with my father around 1970 or 71. I was eight or nine years old and remember banging back and forth between the outer rails. It was damaged beyond repair by Hurricane Agnes in 1972 and afterward demolished. (Quite a few other rides met the same fate that year.)

Like the ride in this thread, it featured a travel lane with outer guard rails, unlike the typical car ride of today which features a center rail (one of which operates at Hersheypark today in a different location).

A postcard featuring the attraction can be seen here: http://www.playle.com/listing.php?i=APOPKAPCSHOPPE56871&PHPSESSID=7hn5hu88bskojpdia7g9ke4m11

Quote from: qguy on March 29, 2013, 09:04:50 AM
A similar ride operated at Hersheypark (then "Hershey Park") from 1960 to 1972. It was called simply the "Turnpike." I remember riding on it with my father around 1970 or 71. I was eight or nine years old and remember banging back and forth between the outer rails. It was damaged beyond repair by Hurricane Agnes in 1972 and afterward demolished. (Quite a few other rides met the same fate that year.)

Like the ride in this thread, it featured a travel lane with outer guard rails, unlike the typical car ride of today which features a center rail (one of which operates at Hersheypark today in a different location).

A postcard featuring the attraction can be seen here: http://www.playle.com/listing.php?i=APOPKAPCSHOPPE56871&PHPSESSID=7hn5hu88bskojpdia7g9ke4m11

When I was little (80s), I got to ride on some of the guardrail rides. (I'm calling it guardrail, not guiderail, because it really did keep you on the course at all times.) I'm glad I still remember this, because after about 1994 or 95 every ride seemed to be middle-rail. There's always go-karting.

Charleston Gazette-Mail: If Turnpike tolls to be removed, planning must start now, lawmakers told (http://www.wvgazettemail.com/news-politics/20160920/if-turnpike-tolls-to-be-removed-planning-must-start-now-lawmakers-told)

QuoteThe process of taking the tolls off the West Virginia Turnpike and moving the road into the state Division of Highways system will need to begin next summer, state Parkways Authority General Manager Greg Barr told a legislative interim committee Tuesday.

QuoteUnder current law, once the 30-year Turnpike bonds are paid off in 2019, the state Division of Highways is to assume operation of the 88-mile interstate if the road is in good condition. State Transportation Secretary Paul Maddox has said planning for the transition will take two years, Barr said.

QuoteHowever, Barr told the Select Committee on Infrastructure he has concerns about future funding for the roadway if tolls are removed.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 21, 2016, 08:45:43 AM
Charleston Gazette-Mail: If Turnpike tolls to be removed, planning must start now, lawmakers told (http://www.wvgazettemail.com/news-politics/20160920/if-turnpike-tolls-to-be-removed-planning-must-start-now-lawmakers-told)

QuoteThe process of taking the tolls off the West Virginia Turnpike and moving the road into the state Division of Highways system will need to begin next summer, state Parkways Authority General Manager Greg Barr told a legislative interim committee Tuesday.

QuoteUnder current law, once the 30-year Turnpike bonds are paid off in 2019, the state Division of Highways is to assume operation of the 88-mile interstate if the road is in good condition. State Transportation Secretary Paul Maddox has said planning for the transition will take two years, Barr said.

QuoteHowever, Barr told the Select Committee on Infrastructure he has concerns about future funding for the roadway if tolls are removed.

Taking the tolls off this road would be one of West Virginia's biggest mistakes ever

Mr. Barr's comments are dishonest.  As is he.

Not just in WV, but in every state where keeping the promise of taking tolls off when paid the idiotic comment of "there is no money to pay for the upkeep".  Really.  So the other 500 odd miles of 4 lane roads in WV should have never been built, because there was no money to pay for the upkeep?  We should not finish H or US 35, and certainly forget about the Coalfields, Tolsia or King Coal, because there is no money to pay for upkeep?  Idiotic. 

WV DOH upkeeps 38,759 miles of roads.  88 more is not going to break the budget.

The reality of the situation is this:

- The turnpike was actually paid off in 1987.  By a subtrafuge they extended tolls for 30 more years and spent the money on other things.  They promised the profits would be spent on "economic development" but in fact, as outlined by the Legislative Auditor, mostly wasted or stole it. 

- The turnpike employment consists of 4 basic types of workers.  Toll takers.  Hey, it sucks to lose your job.  WV got out of the retail liquor business back in the late 80s.  All the clerks and such were fired.  They got preference in civil service and took other state jobs or found work in the real world.  Life.  General highway workers, who will mostly be rolled into the general DOH system .  The issue for these people is that the DOH does not give raises and the turnpike does.  Welcome.  Enjoy.  The beauracracy.  People like Barr and his cronies, who make many times what the same function earns at the DOH.  Some civil service, some contracted from the "private sector".  Fire 'em.  And the F-Troop of failed state troopers.  This is just like the "no money to maintain" lie.  When a new free road opened up, I can never remember anyone discussing how we were going to pay the cops to maintain it.  The local SP just added that to what ever else they did.  And the turnpike can be the same.  The local SP districts just add patrolling the turnpike into what ever else they do.  And you transfer the F-troop to general duties.  And, as to the cash, the number of troopers that retire every year is about 1/3rd of the number in F-troop.  So in three years of not having any new troopers, the SP budget is back to even.

Of course, WV should join honest states like KY and VA and keep its promise to treat southern WV like the other parts of WV and take these tolls off.  Yesterday.

Quote from: SP Cook on September 21, 2016, 10:47:52 AM
WV DOH upkeeps 38,759 miles of roads.  88 more is not going to break the budget.

Not been there in the colder months, but does the West Virginia Turnpike require extra-heavy winter maintenance?  The Pennsylvania Turnpike, for all of its faults and massive diversion of assets to transit agencies with missions not related to the Turnpike, generally does a good job of keeping its roads open even in the worst winter weather.

Quote from: SP Cook on September 21, 2016, 10:47:52 AM
Of course, WV should join honest states like KY and VA and keep its promise to treat southern WV like the other parts of WV and take these tolls off.  Yesterday.

Suggest you remove Virginia from that list for one reason - Va. 267 (the Dulles Toll Road (http://www.dullestollroad.com/toll/dulles-toll-road)).  The revenue bonds sold to build it (issued in the early 1980's) were to have been paid-off this decade (and the road become toll-free), but instead the road was transferred from the Commonwealth to the Metropolitan Airports Authority (MWAA), which has massively jacked-up tolls to fund repayment of the revenue bonds that it sold to build a very expensive train line (Metrorail Silver Line) from Falls Church to beyond the airport for many billions of dollars.

Also, the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel (U.S. 13) will probably be a toll crossing forever (that's is what the Commonwealth's legislative auditors suggested in a report (http://jlarc.virginia.gov/pdfs/reports/Rpt287.pdf) back in 2003).  This is a suggestion I agree with, because of the length and unique nature of the crossing. Relevant language (with emphasis added):

QuoteTwo concerns are of particular note.  First, it appears unlikely that VDOT would  have  sufficient  funds  to  operate  and  maintain  the  facility  without  continua­tion of  the tolls.  This is especially likely if the CBBT is able to defease its bonds by 2010, instead  of by  2025  as  scheduled.   Second,  the  need  to  construct  parallel  tunnels and other future capital requirements (such as replacement of the original tres­tles  and  bridges) is  clearly  beyond  the  financial  capability  of  VDOT.   On  the  other  hand, the district has proven its ability to operate and maintain the facility, and to fund necessary capital projects with toll revenues and bonded debt.  In short, transferring  the  Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel to VDOT is a solution without a problem.

QuoteTherefore,  the  district  and  commission  should  be  retained  to  operate  and  maintain  the  facility  in  perpetuity.  After  parallel  tunnels  have  been built  and  the  associated debt retired, minimal "maintenance tolls"  should be retained for all vehi­cle  classes  to  cover  the  costs  for  operations,  maintenance,  and  future  capital  improvements, such as  the replacement  of aging bridge structures.

Note that I do not know if any of the language above applies to the West Virginia Turnpike, and I defer to your better knowledge of same.

No.  The Turnpike is pretty much indistinguishable from any other interstate, excepting the northern third which has a 60 SL (despite having been safely operated at 65 earlier) and a "jersey barrier" rather than a proper median and is quite twisty (this is because when they rebuilt the turnpike to 4 lanes in the 80s, they did a form of what HB calls "Virginia twining" by just adding two lanes to the existing two, and because the current two lanes were in use they could not/did not do the kind of blasting that most Appalachian interstates built over virgin land used) .  It is not particularly high in elevation nor in any way receives any weather or snow any differently from any of a number of interstates I can name.

As to the toll-takers, Kentucky found jobs for all those affected when the tolls were removed from its parkways. One of them is now my counterpart in the Somerset office. Another worked in accounts in my office for several years until she retired.

And as regards the construction, there are a few places where it's obvious which carriageway is the older one. You can tell by the style of bridge for roads that cross over the turnpike. The only place that it's really easy to tell there's a new alignment on the segment between Beckley in Charleston is where the Memorial Tunnel was bypassed.

I am a bit bemused about how this thread started as an amusement park ride called the West Virginia Turnpike and has now evolved into a discussion about the actual West Virginia Turnpike.   :hmm:  :D

Quote from: amroad17 on September 22, 2016, 05:27:21 AM
I am a bit bemused about how this thread started as an amusement park ride called the West Virginia Turnpike and has now evolved into a discussion about the actual West Virginia Turnpike.   :hmm:  :D

You're right and I'm most likely to blame for this lol. I will discuss why I said what I said on another thread  (yeah I like to rap but that particular rhythm wasn't on purpose lmao)

Quote from: SP Cook on September 21, 2016, 01:31:51 PM
No.  The Turnpike is pretty much indistinguishable from any other interstate, excepting the northern third which has a 60 SL (despite having been safely operated at 65 earlier) and a "jersey barrier" rather than a proper median and is quite twisty (this is because when they rebuilt the turnpike to 4 lanes in the 80s, they did a form of what HB calls "Virginia twining" by just adding two lanes to the existing two, and because the current two lanes were in use they could not/did not do the kind of blasting that most Appalachian interstates built over virgin land used) .  It is not particularly high in elevation nor in any way receives any weather or snow any differently from any of a number of interstates I can name.

Thanks for your reply.

Then it becomes fair to ask why it is still a toll road, at least if the bonds used to build and expand it are being paid-off. 

The Connecticut Turnpike (mostly I-95) was de-tolled in the 1980's, but the service plazas remain (and have recently been upgraded). So West Virginia could presumably de-toll the Turnpike and  keep the services on it forever.

Quote from: amroad17 on September 22, 2016, 05:27:21 AM
I am a bit bemused about how this thread started as an amusement park ride called the West Virginia Turnpike and has now evolved into a discussion about the actual West Virginia Turnpike.   :hmm:  :D

Blame CP's news article pasting.

Speaking of the service plazas, another way it's easy to tell which carriageway of the WV Turnpike is the original is that both of the service plazas (not counting Tamarack) are on the northbound lanes.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 30, 2016, 04:10:35 PM

Quote from: SP Cook on September 21, 2016, 01:31:51 PM
No.  The Turnpike is pretty much indistinguishable from any other interstate, excepting the northern third which has a 60 SL (despite having been safely operated at 65 earlier) and a "jersey barrier" rather than a proper median and is quite twisty (this is because when they rebuilt the turnpike to 4 lanes in the 80s, they did a form of what HB calls "Virginia twining" by just adding two lanes to the existing two, and because the current two lanes were in use they could not/did not do the kind of blasting that most Appalachian interstates built over virgin land used) .  It is not particularly high in elevation nor in any way receives any weather or snow any differently from any of a number of interstates I can name.

Thanks for your reply.

Then it becomes fair to ask why it is still a toll road, at least if the bonds used to build and expand it are being paid-off. 

Per WV Code 17-16A-18, the Turnpike shall be transferred to WVDOH upon payment of tolls if the road is in good condition to the satisfaction of the Commissioner of Highways. The bonds are expected to be paid off in 2019.

Major arguments against eliminating tolls are that the majority of tolls are paid by out-of-state drivers and eliminating them would add tens of millions of dollars in expenses to an agency that  already has a major cash crunch. There have also been proposals to do the same thing OH and PA have done and have the WV Parkways Authority float revenue bonds to pay for WVDOH projects.

I know West Virginia has a couple of special rate plans for its E-ZPass program. If they are concerned about capturing out-of-state revenue, perhaps they should really sweeten the deal for in-state drivers. Perhaps lower the rate for WV drivers to 50 cents or $1 per toll gate, and raise the rate for out-of-staters to $4 or $5. Or maybe even institute AET and allow vehicles with in-state plates to use the turnpike for free.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 30, 2016, 07:35:12 PM
Speaking of the service plazas, another way it's easy to tell which carriageway of the WV Turnpike is the original is that both of the service plazas (not counting Tamarack) are on the northbound lanes.

I've been on a few parts where the southbound carriageway seemed original due to the age of the concrete.

Quote from: hbelkins on October 02, 2016, 05:22:00 PM
I know West Virginia has a couple of special rate plans for its E-ZPass program. If they are concerned about capturing out-of-state revenue, perhaps they should really sweeten the deal for in-state drivers. Perhaps lower the rate for WV drivers to 50 cents or $1 per toll gate, and raise the rate for out-of-staters to $4 or $5. Or maybe even institute AET and allow vehicles with in-state plates to use the turnpike for free.

Not to go off-topic, but the Germans (who are the only prosperous European country who do not toll) want to toll the autobahns but make the entire amount a tax credit, meaning Germans would in effect drive for free, assuming they have income.  It is tied up in some kind of Euro "court". 

Anyway, the WV ez-pass deal is OK.  You can get an ez-pass for either $5/year and pay $1.30 per mainline toll booth (use of the broken promise Corridor L toll booth is free) rather than $2, or you can get one for $95/year per mainline toll booth (again the Corridor L toll booth is free) and you can drive the road for "free" all you want.  There is also a $5/year "free" pass for just the Corridor L booth.  Then up to $1200 of tolls are deductions from your WV income.  Since most people pay a 6.5% state income tax, that means that you get 6.5% of what you spend back off your taxes. 

I'm not big on that sort of thing.  Because it just becomes a slippery slope.  I can drive in WV for free, but then KY tolls all the roads and you can drive them for free but I have to pay $50 every couple miles, and then Tennessee charges both of us $100 and so on. 

Quote from: SP Cook on October 03, 2016, 10:31:04 AM
Not to go off-topic, but the Germans (who are the only prosperous European country who do not toll) want to toll the autobahns but make the entire amount a tax credit, meaning Germans would in effect drive for free, assuming they have income.  It is tied up in some kind of Euro "court". 

I must respectfully disagree (in part) with the above.

Germany tolls its autobahn network, but only for (what we in North America call) commercial vehicles.

Denmark has tolls on the E20 Great Belt Bridge crossing, and on the E20 Øresund Bridge-Tunnel to Sweden, and will have tolls on the new tunnel crossing between Puttgarten, Germany and Rødby.  Otherwise, no tolls.

Finland has no road tolls at all, though it has been discussed from time to time.

Norway has quite a few toll roads and toll crossings.

Sweden has tolls on the E20 Øresund Bridge-Tunnel to Denmark and on the E6 bridge to Norway, and has congestion tax toll cordons around the downtown areas of Stockholm and Gothenburg.   

The revenue collected in Stockholm is being used to build a western circumferential highway for "thru" auto and truck traffic, much of which  will be in blasted-out tunnel.  Not sure what the revenue collected in Gothenburg is used for.

Otherwise, all roads in Sweden are free of tolls.

Parkways: Traffic study misses mark by at least 88 miles (https://www.herald-dispatch.com/news/parkways-traffic-study-misses-mark-by-at-least-miles/article_af5f2a89-35b9-5279-9135-069df3f3380d.html)

As the Parkways Authority prepares to commission a new traffic study in preparation to sell a new round of Turnpike bonds early next year, Authority members Thursday debated why the most recent traffic study, for $173 million of bonds sold in 2018, turned out to be so far off the mark.

The study, by CDM Smith, projected the doubling of Turnpike tolls earlier this year would cause commercial truck traffic to drop 19.6 percent. It actually has been up about 1 percent.

It also estimated that more than 800,000 drivers, both in and outside of West Virginia, would snap up the offer for super-discounted E-Z Pass transponders – at $8 a year for unlimited use of the Turnpike, compared to the normal $285 charge. Instead, Parkways sold just over 100,000, bringing the total number of unlimited use transponders in service to about 150,000.

[...]

Quote from: seicer on October 11, 2019, 02:27:01 PM
Parkways: Traffic study misses mark by at least 88 miles (https://www.herald-dispatch.com/news/parkways-traffic-study-misses-mark-by-at-least-miles/article_af5f2a89-35b9-5279-9135-069df3f3380d.html)

As the Parkways Authority prepares to commission a new traffic study in preparation to sell a new round of Turnpike bonds early next year, Authority members Thursday debated why the most recent traffic study, for $173 million of bonds sold in 2018, turned out to be so far off the mark.

The study, by CDM Smith, projected the doubling of Turnpike tolls earlier this year would cause commercial truck traffic to drop 19.6 percent. It actually has been up about 1 percent.

It also estimated that more than 800,000 drivers, both in and outside of West Virginia, would snap up the offer for super-discounted E-Z Pass transponders – at $8 a year for unlimited use of the Turnpike, compared to the normal $285 charge. Instead, Parkways sold just over 100,000, bringing the total number of unlimited use transponders in service to about 150,000.

[...]

Yeah...About the "diverting due to tolls thing" the article is 100% right on why trucks use the WV Turnpike. There is only one viable alternative to it, and it only works if you're coming from the North, or going to the north via I-79. US19 over the New River Gorge is a fairly modern highway that cuts travel time if you are coming down I-79 or going to 79. Otherwise...need to connect from Ohio to the Roanoke Area? Best routing for a truck is US35,I-64,WV Turnpike,US460, I81.

Quote from: SteveG1988 on October 14, 2019, 09:24:29 AM

Quote from: seicer on October 11, 2019, 02:27:01 PM
Parkways: Traffic study misses mark by at least 88 miles (https://www.herald-dispatch.com/news/parkways-traffic-study-misses-mark-by-at-least-miles/article_af5f2a89-35b9-5279-9135-069df3f3380d.html)

As the Parkways Authority prepares to commission a new traffic study in preparation to sell a new round of Turnpike bonds early next year, Authority members Thursday debated why the most recent traffic study, for $173 million of bonds sold in 2018, turned out to be so far off the mark.

The study, by CDM Smith, projected the doubling of Turnpike tolls earlier this year would cause commercial truck traffic to drop 19.6 percent. It actually has been up about 1 percent.

It also estimated that more than 800,000 drivers, both in and outside of West Virginia, would snap up the offer for super-discounted E-Z Pass transponders – at $8 a year for unlimited use of the Turnpike, compared to the normal $285 charge. Instead, Parkways sold just over 100,000, bringing the total number of unlimited use transponders in service to about 150,000.

[...]

Yeah...About the "diverting due to tolls thing" the article is 100% right on why trucks use the WV Turnpike. There is only one viable alternative to it, and it only works if you're coming from the North, or going to the north via I-79. US19 over the New River Gorge is a fairly modern highway that cuts travel time if you are coming down I-79 or going to 79. Otherwise...need to connect from Ohio to the Roanoke Area? Best routing for a truck is US35,I-64,WV Turnpike,US460, I81.

The alternatives to bypass the toll booths between Beckley and Charleston aren't that great for passenger cars, and trucks are prohibited on the parallel county routes -- at least the one that runs between Mossy and Pax.

A 14 minute documentary from 2003 about the planning, construction, usage and future of the West Virginia turnpike, a highway that was a precursor to the Interstate Highway System.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qshc2-TDMDc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qshc2-TDMDc)

That's a kind of sucky edit of the full 47-minute film. The whole thing used to be on YouTube or Vimeo, but I can see why it might have gotten taken off for copyright reasons. I know they used to sell DVDs of it (they were for sale at the 50th Anniversary celebration in 2004 at Tamarack, at which they showed the whole movie) but I can't find any for sale now.

I just found out about the widening of the Turnpike between the I-64-exit 40 and US 19-exit 48. Just in terms of roadgeek OCD, I find widening the overlap of the I-77-US 19 Wytheville-Morganton axis with the I-77 and I-64 axes to be satisfying, as if a bit more will soon be right with the world.

It's a bit puzzling to me that the widening of the northbound side extends 1.1 miles further north than that of the southbound side, extending completely through the US 19 interchange rather than ending at the offramp to US 19 north. The added lane will apparently end just after the merger of the onramp from southbound US 19, with two lanes ending almost simultaneously. My first thought was that maybe a bit of a climbing lane effect was needed, but in fact there's a legit climbing lane on the southbound side beginning 2.3 miles before the US 19 bridges and extending through the interchange to the Tamarack exit. Does anyone here know wassup with that?

Quote2020 SUMMER CONSTRUCTION PROJECT PLANS
FOR THE WEST VIRGINIA TURNPIKE
In July, 2018 the West Virginia Turnpike began a Highway Total Reconstruction Project in the Beckley area. This project will run thru October 2021.
Location of Total Reconstruction Project:
Raleigh County:
 North of I-64 Interchange Exit 40 — Mile marker 40.2 to 47.8 North
 South of North Beckley Exit 48 — Mile marker 46.7 to 40.7 South

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8366335,-81.2195613,680m/data=!3m1!1e3

I was curious about that myself. Perhaps it's a prelude to the future widening to the north, which will be an absolute nightmare.

I posted these recent photos of widening in the vicinity of the WV Routes 16/97 interchange which shows the double trumpet interchange that was added during the widening of the Turnpike back in the 1970s and 1980s. The ticket-based tolling was never implemented after the widening project was completed, although the unusual configuration of this interchange would seem to indicate that it was set up for that function. Instead, two of the ramps had exact change coin baskets, the remnants of which are still visible.

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Quote from: Tom958 on April 03, 2021, 07:07:53 AM
I just found out about the widening of the Turnpike between the I-64-exit 40 and US 19-exit 48. just in terms of roadgeek OCD, I find it satisfying that the overlap of the I-77-US 19 Wytheville-Morganton axis with the I-77 and I-64 axes to be satisfying, as if a bit more will soon be right with the world.

It's a bit puzzling to me that the widening of the northbound side extends 1.1 miles further north than that of the southbound side, extending completely through the US 19 interchange rather than ending at the offramp to US 19 north. The added lane will apparently end just after the merger of the onramp from southbound US 19, with two lanes ending almost simultaneously. My first thought was that maybe a bit of a climbing lane effect was needed, but in fact there's a legit climbing lane on the southbound side beginning 2.3 miles before the US 19 bridges and extending through the interchange to the Tamarack exit. Does anyone here know wassup with that?

While this project is technically a widening, there has been a need for an additional truck lane in both directions of this section ever since it opened in pieces in the mid-1980s (just prior to the completion of I-64).  The interchange with Corridor L is atop a huge ridge, so the additional lane would likely be to allow a safe distance for the US-19 onramp to merge with the "truck lane" prior to dropping off.  West Virginia used to be notorious for dropping its truck lanes at the top of the crest, and in many cases trucks would stall on the upgrade while long strings of cars were platooning to try to cut off the trucker.

As many times as I've used that interchange, I've never seen the remnants of the coin baskets.

I see a removed overhead for the I-64 east/I-77 south split. Will the backlit sign remain up?

You can see the concrete patching that was done when the booth was removed here:

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That's about as much as I can find these days. I should fly over the other double trumpet interchanges as some still have the offices intact. As far as the backlit signs - I think the gantries are all being replaced. I hope that the new signs are a bit more compliant and less ugly - the Turnpike had about the ugliest signs out there because of the stretched fonts and awful kerning.

Quote from: seicer on April 03, 2021, 09:31:29 PM
That's about as much as I can find these days. I should fly over the other double trumpet interchanges as some still have the offices intact. As far as the backlit signs - I think the gantries are all being replaced. I hope that the new signs are a bit more compliant and less ugly - the Turnpike had about the ugliest signs out there because of the stretched fonts and awful kerning.

A lot of the signage between the Cabin Creek toll plaza and the US 19 connector was awful, but it has since been replaced. There are a few oddballs left between US 19 and the I-64 split (the WV 3 and WV 16/97 exits). And also a bit of button copy. I'll hate to see that gone.

Now that the turnpike widening project through Beckley is (apparently) complete, why hasn't the speed limit been increased back to 70mph? I drive a truck pulling shipping containers out of Norfolk through there frequently and am puzzled as to what's the deal here. 

I drove thru there two weeks ago, the overhead lane drop warning sign on the turnpike just north of the wb 64 on ramp was still in place, cars and trucks scrambling to move over when it was not needed

Is it hard for anyone to believe that the WVT was only two lanes wide until 1987? Or that the exits were numbered sequentially 1-6 (rising as one went southward)? Those were the days.

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 11, 2022, 11:33:22 AM
Is it hard for anyone to believe that the WVT was only two lanes wide until 1987? Or that the exits were numbered sequentially 1-6 (rising as one went southward)? Those were the days.

Most of it was already four-laned and up to [near] Interstate standards by then.  But I cut my teeth on the West Virginia Turnpike when it was all two-laned, long before the [then] Turnpike Commission planted those flexible yellow plastic sticks down the middle along the yellow double striping.  At age 16, my dad wanted me to tackle passing a semi-truck going uphill with oncoming traffic (and he prepared me for that lesson before we took off on vacation).  It wasn't so intense driving a huge Pontiac with a 400/4bbl, but the first time I needed to do it in a Dodge Dart was quite intimidating.  I still wonder if he considered that a "Right of Passage" (pun intended) for growing up in West Virginia.

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 11, 2022, 11:33:22 AM
Is it hard for anyone to believe that the WVT was only two lanes wide until 1987? Or that the exits were numbered sequentially 1-6 (rising as one went southward)? Those were the days.

It is all a part of the sad history of highway construction in WV.  With a few exceptions, after the Huntington-Charleston 64 and Charleston-Parkersburg 77, the state built all of its interstates and corridors in pretty much the reverse order of importance. 

One has to ask why one cent was spent on fairly minor roads like Corridor D, Corridor E, and even I-79, when the Turnpike, and the section of US 60 used to connect the two ends of I-64, were 2 lane death-roads.  77 and 64, with the most traffic volume (by far) and the most economic development potential (by far) should have been finished 30 years before they were.

I've found the development that has happened along I-79 to be quite noticeable on my drives down through there over the last 40 years.

Quote from: Rothman on August 11, 2022, 12:40:08 PM
I've found the development that has happened along I-79 to be quite noticeable on my drives down through there over the last 40 years.

My first foray up I-79, I was surprised to see that shopping center at the Elkview exit out in the middle of nowhere.

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 11, 2022, 11:33:22 AM
Is it hard for anyone to believe that the WVT was only two lanes wide until 1987? Or that the exits were numbered sequentially 1-6 (rising as one went southward)? Those were the days.

Quote from: SP Cook on August 11, 2022, 12:11:36 PM
It is all a part of the sad history of highway construction in WV.  With a few exceptions, after the Huntington-Charleston 64 and Charleston-Parkersburg 77, the state built all of its interstates and corridors in pretty much the reverse order of importance. 

One has to ask why one cent was spent on fairly minor roads like Corridor D, Corridor E, and even I-79, when the Turnpike, and the section of US 60 used to connect the two ends of I-64, were 2 lane death-roads.  77 and 64, with the most traffic volume (by far) and the most economic development potential (by far) should have been finished 30 years before they were.

I suspect that was a result of how far down the food chain West Virginia was on the priority list at FHWA for the Interstate, versus how important West Virginia was for the Appalachian Regional Development programs.  Back then, West Virginia and Kentucky were continually fighting for first place in coal production.  Corridor D was easy pickings, but really didn't bring much in economic development.  To be honest, I think that Corridor D was also intended for hauling coal from North-Central West Virginia to the coal port of Cleveland, both of which died out when the Chessie System refocused its main coal hauling services towards Baltimore, Newport News and consumers in South-Central Ohio and the Midwest. 

Also, you don't normal think of senators as territorial, but I suspect that Jennings Randolph was instrumental in getting Corridor D and Corridor E much sooner than his junior senator Bob Byrd could get Corridor L, Corridor G and Corridor Q.  Anyhow, it is sad that the Appalachian Corridor system left the Interstate routes in West Virginia in the dust.

Quote from: SP Cook on August 11, 2022, 12:11:36 PM
With a few exceptions, after the Huntington-Charleston 64 and Charleston-Parkersburg 77, the state built all of its interstates and corridors in pretty much the reverse order of importance. 

Legend has it that WVDOH was pushing hard to build out I-79 between Charleston and Morgantown to bolster Saturday game day traffic heading to the old Mountaineer Field.  It was once a brutal trip that almost took 6 hours to get on campus at WVU, whereas now you can make the trip in about 2-1/2 hours if you avoid the crush (and the new Mountaineer Field is further off of I-79 than the Downtown campus).  Also (as I've mentioned too many times), driving on sections of I-79 that was still under construction was encouraged on game days from 1973 to 1975 (which was sometimes dangerous to hop off of the new 6-inch concrete onto the skidpan.  I ought to post this in new Football Game Day thread:  https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=31979.0#lastPost

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 11, 2022, 11:33:22 AM
Is it hard for anyone to believe that the WVT was only two lanes wide until 1987? Or that the exits were numbered sequentially 1-6 (rising as one went southward)? Those were the days.

It was quite annoying in the '80s having to go back and forth between 4 lanes and 2 that many times. By then it would back up every time. As a little kid with no tech in the car and parents who liked the radio off it was excruciating. The radio barely worked anyway between the mountains and most local stations being low-powered (but not Low-Power).

You were dying for a service plaza by the time you got to Beckley when you were going south since you weren't allowed to go into the northbound ones from the southbound lanes anymore and a lot of the exits were like Pax which had just nothing. And you weren't allowed to enter the Beckley one either if you were going north at that time. I can't remember if they built the ramps/overpasses to restore northbound access to Beckley at the same time they built Tamarack or if they did it a few years before.

Quote from: GCrites80s on August 11, 2022, 10:01:58 PM
You were dying for a service plaza by the time you got to Beckley when you were going south since you weren't allowed to go into the northbound ones from the southbound lanes anymore and a lot of the exits were like Pax which had just nothing. And you weren't allowed to enter the Beckley one either if you were going north at that time. I can't remember if they built the ramps/overpasses to restore northbound access to Beckley at the same time they built Tamarack or if they did it a few years before.

Indeed.  Back in those days there was the southbound Truck Service Area just beyond the northbound Morton Service Area, which had "No Facilities" posted.  Eventually, the [then] Turnpike Commission put in a bunch of porta-potties.

Quote from: SP Cook on August 11, 2022, 12:11:36 PM

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 11, 2022, 11:33:22 AM
Is it hard for anyone to believe that the WVT was only two lanes wide until 1987? Or that the exits were numbered sequentially 1-6 (rising as one went southward)? Those were the days.

It is all a part of the sad history of highway construction in WV.  With a few exceptions, after the Huntington-Charleston 64 and Charleston-Parkersburg 77, the state built all of its interstates and corridors in pretty much the reverse order of importance. 

Even at that, getting to I-77 from Charleston wasn't easy. I started driving between Blacksburg and Pittsburgh in the mid-70s (and tried just about every routing). The first trips to Blacksburg were via the Pennsylvania Turnpike to Breezewood, then working to reach I-81 for the long trip from Winchester south. The alternative that came into play over that long routing was to take the turnpike ("A modern two-lane highway" the sign at the Princeton toll booth proclaimed) to Charleston, take city streets from south to north and out into the countryside to reach the current end of I-77, then that interstate to I-70 in Ohio to head east to Little Washington and I-79 almost to Pittsburgh (we lived in Moon Township near the airport, so had to get to the Parkway from the current north end of I-79). I-77 slowly took shape at both ends and all along the Turnpike, slowly adding new lanes and some new alignments. Getting through Charleston got a little easier and I-77 finally came into the city, although it took a while for I-79 to get there. By that time, U.S. 19 was making its way south from Sutton, although it still took back roads to get from U.S. 60 down to Rich Creek. Once the New River Bridge opened, Beckley was the target although it still took a few years to cover the short distance from the original U.S. 19 to the Turnpike.

Quote from: Dirt Roads on August 12, 2022, 12:00:13 AM

Quote from: GCrites80s on August 11, 2022, 10:01:58 PM
You were dying for a service plaza by the time you got to Beckley when you were going south since you weren't allowed to go into the northbound ones from the southbound lanes anymore and a lot of the exits were like Pax which had just nothing. And you weren't allowed to enter the Beckley one either if you were going north at that time. I can't remember if they built the ramps/overpasses to restore northbound access to Beckley at the same time they built Tamarack or if they did it a few years before.

Indeed.  Back in those days there was the southbound Truck Service Area just beyond the northbound Morton Service Area, which had "No Facilities" posted.  Eventually, the [then] Turnpike Commission put in a bunch of porta-potties.

The northbound access to the Beckley service area (and the Tamarack) opened in 1996.

I've read someplace (a news article?) that that interchange is unfinished, with extensions planned west to Dry Hill Road and east to Pinewood Drive to provide a west-east connection through the northern half of Beckley.

Quote from: GCrites80s on August 11, 2022, 10:01:58 PM
You were dying for a service plaza by the time you got to Beckley when you were going south since you weren't allowed to go into the northbound ones from the southbound lanes anymore and a lot of the exits were like Pax which had just nothing. And you weren't allowed to enter the Beckley one either if you were going north at that time. I can't remember if they built the ramps/overpasses to restore northbound access to Beckley at the same time they built Tamarack or if they did it a few years before.

Quote from: Dirt Roads on August 12, 2022, 12:00:13 AM
Indeed.  Back in those days there was the southbound Truck Service Area just beyond the northbound Morton Service Area, which had "No Facilities" posted.  Eventually, the [then] Turnpike Commission put in a bunch of porta-potties.

Sorry, I got cut off in the middle of this response.  Also during the widening of the West Virginia Turnpike, a construction staging area was established on the northeast rim of the Bluestone Gorge during construction of the new span over the Bluestone River.  That location also became a southbound Truck Service Area (which also had "No Facilities" posted).  For a short time, the Truck Service Area had porta-potties, but that became problematic and they were removed.  Today, that site also serves as a Scenic Overlook (as well as a temporary Weigh Station).  I've heard rumors for many years of plans to convert the location to a Rest Area just like the other southbound [former] Truck Service Area, but I suspect that businesses at the Princeton exit have fought that tooth-and-nail.

The Welcome Center is only a few miles to the south and has full facilities so that could be a factor too. Granted you do have to fully exit the freeway to access it.

As I understand it, the "service areas"  on the Turnpike are money losers.  I do know that they have cut back on the hours at the southernmost one, and all of them have food court spaces that are unused now.

The road is only 88 miles long, it doesn't cost anything to use the exits, and not only Princeton, but Beckley have plenty of road focused businesses, and ther are also plenty  of services along all the roads that feed into it. 

I'm not sure about the "money losers" comment but I got into a conversation with someone working at the Beckley plaza a while back and they are working to replace that service area within the next 5 years. It's pretty dated and the only tenants remaining is Burger King, Starbucks, and the convenience store. They are also looking to expand showers to the other two service areas since those are consistently used (and a feature I wish would be expanded to all service areas).

The northern half of the Turnpike is closed to through traffic after a rollover accident involving a truck with hazardous chemicals - that's blocked all lanes: https://wchstv.com/news/local/part-of-wv-turnpike-closed-after-box-truck-with-hazardous-materials-flipped

The driver was arrested for DUI. Traffic is being detoured via Detour A - US 19 and Interstate 79.

Much of the two-lane portions of US 60, especially around Hawks Nest, are hopelessly congested because of the steep grades and curves. WV 16 coming out of Fayetteville is a slog, too.

Drunk truck driver.

https://www.wsaz.com/2022/08/25/west-virginia-turnpike-closed-after-tractor-trailer-accident/

As all of the major alternates are hopeless, my detour (for cars) would be Corridor G (US 119 South) to either WV 3 or WV 85 -99 - 3. 

They are saying late tonight or maybe tomorrow morning. 

US 19 and I-79 are pretty clear, with some backups in Summersville. There are multiple accidents now on US 60 that have it completely gridlocked.

And the one-lane shunpike next to the Turnpike is closed because of a bridge replacement.

I wonder how water quality will be affected on Paint Creek. We were just at Paint Creek Falls swimming. It's still a fairly clean stream.

I meant to look at Google Maps to see traffic levels earlier today, but forgot.

If the county parallel road is closed and WV 16 is tied up, I'd probably try to get to Whitesville, either via WV 3 straight out of Beckley or via some of the county routes that connect with US 19 near Corridor L, and then WV 94 back to the turnpike.

That county parallel road is one lane in places because of narrow bridges and because of the kudzu. There is also a bridge out because of replacement so it can't be traversed north of Pax.

WV 94 and WV 3 could be workable but that's 2 hours without traffic. For tractor-trailers, that would be a disaster.
US 60, WV 61 and US 19 is 1.25 hours but there are also unforgiving grades, and it's also pretty congested with the rerouting.
US 60, WV 16 and US 19 is around 1.4 hours but any slow vehicle will make that drive a slog. Plus you have to deal with the steep grades and curves west of Hawks Nest which was the scene of several accidents and major slowdowns. So that may be a 2 hour or more drive.

You could... take County Route 13 over Cotton Hill Mountain behind Kanawha Falls but that's easy a 2+ hour trip and is one lane most of the way.

I-79 to US 19 is still the preferred route and is 2 hours with moderate congestion at in Summersville and around the traffic lights closer to Beckley and Oak Hill.

https://wvmetronews.com/2022/08/30/big-update-coming-on-turnpike-with-rebuild-of-travel-plazas/

Turnpike to replace the three service areas.  Beckley (Scamarack is a separate deal and not involved) and Bluestone will close for 20 months next February; Morton will follow after the other two are finished. 

IMHO, this seems like a waste.  This is not PA, NY, IN, OH, IL where you are on the toll roads for many hours.  It is 88 miles, and, with one exception, the exits are free.  There are plenty of services on each of the major approaches to the road and in Beckley. 

It would seem the money could be better spent upgrading the companion to the Morton area with fuel, or in building ramps so Morton could be accessed south/east bound. 

In particular the Bluestone area serves little purpose, only 35 miles from Wytheville's plethora of services, and 7 from Princeton, which has everything one needs, with Beckley only a few more miles farther up. 

Except that the Bluestone service area is 37 miles (38 minutes) away from the Beckley service area. The Beckley service area is 27.2 miles (30 minutes) from the Morton service area. So your comments about one being "a few miles farther up" is bunk. We get it, you don't like the toll road but there are vast areas that no longer have services off of the Turnpike. Especially north of Beckley, gas stations except for Morton are getting hard to find as several have closed in recent years or are no longer open at night. And the same can be said between Beckley and Bluefield with the exception of the Ghent interchange because of the nearby ski resort.

During peak times, I can attest that all three service areas will have fairly full parking lots. The Beckley service area is often too full because of larger trucks and RVs that will park in the front parking lot - because of a lack of parking space elsewhere. Truck parking is also next to impossible to grab on weeknights and weekends with trucks spilling over onto the ramps at all three plazas. RVs (and vanlifers like myself) will often go to the Tamarack lot where it's allowed and encouraged.

The biggest takeaway is that there is a new operator and different dining choices - and multiple options to eat at both Morton and Bluestone. There will also be more truck parking and EV charging spots (a first for the Turnpike). Showers, not mentioned, will be at all three service areas - this is a trend I hope comes to more service areas, and I'm pleased to see it coming to a significant portion of the New York State Thruway's service areas.

Yeah you beat me to it. Out of all the times I've driven the turnpike, the only one I didn't see crowded was Beckley and that was just one time and probably because it was around 8am on a Monday when I stopped there. Those plazas are almost always overrun when I stop by or pass by them.

I do agree that it would be nice to have an upgraded facility SB at Morton though.

Every car I have ever owned had a gas gauge. 

I would hate the think I was incapable of traveling a wasteland of, gosh, almost 34 miles (Princeton MP 9 to Beckley MP 44) or even 51 miles (Beckley MP 44 to Kanawha City MP 95) without a gas station.

Except such trips are taken, throughout the less populated parts of the country, millions of times every day.

That Beckley service plaza isn't that old, is it?

It's the only one at which I've stopped. I'm not usually on the Turnpike northbound between Beckley and Princeton, and have had no need to stop when I've been going north between Beckley and Charleston.

They are over 30 years old. Some of the plazas on the New York State Thruway are around the same age and are also being outright replaced, too.

Quote from: SP Cook on August 31, 2022, 10:31:20 AM
I would hate the think I was incapable of traveling a wasteland of, gosh, almost 34 miles (Princeton MP 9 to Beckley MP 44) or even 51 miles (Beckley MP 44 to Kanawha City MP 95) without a gas station.

Except such trips are taken, throughout the less populated parts of the country, millions of times every day.

51 miles is a pretty long distance between services on an Interstate in this part of the country. The plazas seem to get a good bit of traffic and have at least historically been turning a profit for the Parkways Authority. I don't see the problem with keeping them, especially considering that you'd likely put rest areas around these locations anyway.

Small businesses like gas stations are having a harder and harder time finding people so a lot of local gas stations are closing early -- like 7pm. I don't know who signs the paychecks at a service plaza gas station, but a lot of smaller gas stations are so dependent on the owner's labor these days that they are tapping out and going either 9-5 or closing altogether.

Quote from: Bitmapped on August 31, 2022, 03:52:14 PM

Quote from: SP Cook on August 31, 2022, 10:31:20 AM
I would hate the think I was incapable of traveling a wasteland of, gosh, almost 34 miles (Princeton MP 9 to Beckley MP 44) or even 51 miles (Beckley MP 44 to Kanawha City MP 95) without a gas station.

Except such trips are taken, throughout the less populated parts of the country, millions of times every day.

51 miles is a pretty long distance between services on an Interstate in this part of the country. The plazas seem to get a good bit of traffic and have at least historically been turning a profit for the Parkways Authority. I don't see the problem with keeping them, especially considering that you'd likely put rest areas around these locations anyway.

The only gas stations I can find between the North Beckley and Chelyan exits are an Exxon at Mossy and a tiny little non-branded station at Pax.  North Beckley to Chelyan is 37 miles, and then add a couple more miles because the gas stations off those exits are a little ways away from their respective exits and it's roughly 40 miles.  The Morton service plaza is very much a necessity along this route, and it would be nice if it was accessible to southbound traffic.

Even more difficult is finding food late. Sheetz and McDonalds are the only places in Beckley (might be a few others) other than the service area, but Sheetz is a good 10 minute drive north. Bluefield is a little easier with options right off I-77 but there is nothing until you get to Kanawha City or Charleston proper.

Fuel is a little easier but there are few options directly off the turnpike. One requires a detour over the Kanawha River while some (like at Pax and Mossy) don't even have signs off the interstate anymore. As was mentioned above, it's getting quite hard to find fuel in rural areas these days. Thousands of stations have closed nationwide in the past few decades as there is little profit to be made, and especially in rural areas, finding anything open past dusk is a gamble.

And let's not forget trucks and RVs. There are no truck stops anywhere along the Turnpike. You either have to drive into Virginia at Bastian (40 minutes) or go to a small one in Grandview or drive towards Teays Valley. And finding one with showers or amenities is even more scarce.

Quote from: seicer on August 31, 2022, 11:07:24 PM
Even more difficult is finding food late. Sheetz and McDonalds are the only places in Beckley (might be a few others) other than the service area, but Sheetz is a good 10 minute drive north. Bluefield is a little easier with options right off I-77 but there is nothing until you get to Kanawha City or Charleston proper.

Fuel is a little easier but there are few options directly off the turnpike. One requires a detour over the Kanawha River while some (like at Pax and Mossy) don't even have signs off the interstate anymore. As was mentioned above, it's getting quite hard to find fuel in rural areas these days. Thousands of stations have closed nationwide in the past few decades as there is little profit to be made, and especially in rural areas, finding anything open past dusk is a gamble.

And let's not forget trucks and RVs. There are no truck stops anywhere along the Turnpike. You either have to drive into Virginia at Bastian (40 minutes) or go to a small one in Grandview or drive towards Teays Valley. And finding one with showers or amenities is even more scarce.

I live out west in Colorado, where there are a lot of wide-open rural areas (west of the divide) and in some areas 40 miles between gas stations is the norm.

Out here, more times than not, gas stations allow for self-serve pumps to remain on 24/7 as credit/debit payment only during the "off hours", so at least people with plastic can always get gas whether the c-store cashier is open or not.

Is it state or local regulations that prevent some of these stations out east from having 24/7 pumps?

None that I know of. There is one station in Elkins that I use that is open 24/7 that has no attendant.

File this one under nitpicking, but I noticed when driving the WV Turnpike last month that on some newer toll plaza signage, the WVPA got lazy with the E-ZPass logo. As an example, here (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.5973279,-81.1269184,3a,43y,32.21h,85.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZ_wmmMGMmGCsipQYVToziQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) is how it looks on newly-replaced signage approaching the Ghent plaza northbound. Additionally, here (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9169962,-81.2700244,3a,75y,9.16h,89.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1su9vwJfDHeBpkOsAya9aBpQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) approaching the Pax plaza northbound the logo was replaced while the rest of the sign was retained (compare the newest streetview against ones a few years back).  I imagine it was cheaper to not slant the letters in "E-ZPass", but I can't say I've seen another toll authority do anything along those lines.

The way companies are so aggressively debranding their logos by going from proprietary logotypes to generic fonts these days it might be the actual logo. I mean Cadillac and PacSun now have the same logo as each other which is also just the eye chart font.

(https://www.pacsun.com/on/demandware.static/Sites-pacsun-Site/-/default/dw48ab02d1/images/newLogoBlack.svg)

(https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/cadillac-lockup-pos-rgb-1633375386.png?crop=1.09xw:0.853xh;0.0625xw,0.219xh&resize=480:*)

RFP for the travel plazas and the northbound rest area at mile marker 69 (https://transportation.wv.gov/Turnpike/Purchasing/Documents/1%20RFP%20WVPA%20Travel%20Plazas%20FINAL%2008.24.21.pdf)

See page 44 for preliminary layouts and page 54 for preliminary renderings. The plazas will be rebuilt entirely from the ground-up, including new fuel tanks, more parking for trucks/RVs/cars, and charging stations. A truckers lounge will be added to the Beckley service area, with amenities similar to what you find at private operators - including showers, laundry facilities, and work sites. It does not appear a truckers lounge will be added to the Morton or Bluestone service areas at this time.

Those renderings do look nice, though I think the old ones are still fine if it wasn't for the vacancies and lack of modern trucker services and capacity. The new ones look like they have a little Glass House influence in their design.

Now that demographic survey is quite interesting. I was a little surprised how much demand there was for drive-thru considering how much I despise eating in cars. Maybe it's more for the coffee aspect. Then again some of these users are closer to their homes than I expected.

I was wondering if it would be for Starbucks but at least looking at the Beckley site plans, it would be for Wendy's (the replacement tenant for Burger King that is there now).

It's interesting to see the revenue figures for the Beckley service area drop, but I think that corresponds to the closure of Quiznos. It was never replaced presumably in preparation for a new service plaza that reportedly has been in the works since pre-COVID (and was delayed for at least 2+ years because of it).

I like the designs, and they remind me of the new designs along the New York State Thruway - but with much more room and capacity. The existing facilities aren't dilapidated but do need mechanical overhauls - and if you are going to spend that much money to shoehorn in trucker lounges and more amenities - along with rebuilt fuel tanks and pumps, you might as well start from scratch.

I wish that the rest area going southbound at mile marker 69 had more room to maneuver. It's practically impossible to find parking there for our RV during the day and night - and car parking has been limited during the peak travel season. Meanwhile, the rest area going southbound at the Bluestone River bridge is practically deserted - but also has no amenities.

Speaking of Morton... someone told me years ago the plan was to turn the abandoned rail line across the turnpike into a rail trail and have its access from Morton with a bridge over the Turnpike. This would allow people to bike/hike all the way down to the rest area and beyond where it flips over to the over side of highway enabling access to Paint Creek. Seems like a better use of toll revenue than upgrading service facilities that are in direct competition with private business.

This goes back to the days when the West Virginia Parkways Authority was lumped under a broader agency that was tasked with promoting tourism and other related ventures - including building the Tamarack. In April 2007, the Parkways Authority Board adopted a Resolution refocusing the core mission of the Parkways to the maintenance and upkeep of the Turnpike - and the service plazas are a core (and profitable) function of the Turnpike. While an outside agency could build a connection from the future rail-to-trail to Morton, I'm not sure the Turnpike would be interested in connecting anything else to Rest Area at mile marker 69 because it's already at capacity in terms of parking. (The trail is still in the planning phases but much of the right-of-way was recently cleared out for a new water line and is generally graded and graveled.)

The Bluestone and Morton plazas have no direct competition, and the Beckley plaza only has competition for its food and gasoline offerings - which may be a bit cheaper on Harper Road. Prices recently have been similar. But there are no comparable truck stops for many, many miles in each direction from Beckley - and you have to travel to Covington, Virginia or Rocky Gap, Virginia or north toward Flatwoods, Nitro, or Ripley to find a comparable facility.

Beckley Travel Plaza to undergo renovations from the ground up (https://www.register-herald.com/news/beckley-travel-plaza-to-undergo-renovations-from-the-ground-up/article_cda965d6-6773-11ed-9951-ffecae992a55.html)

"In addition to a complete renovation of the Beckley Travel Plaza, Miller said major renovations will also take place at the Bluestone Travel Plaza and the Morton Travel Plaza near Burnwell totaling $152 million."

"The Beckley and Bluestone travel plazas will be the first to be updated and are being rebuilt from the ground up. Beginning Wednesday, Feb. 1, 2023, both with be closed to start the demolition and site redevelopment process."

--

There will be fuel available for passenger cars and trucks, along with temporary restroom facilities. The Tamarack will continue to have food operations, although I've heard that those hours may be expanded during construction.

The Beckley plaza will have Wendy's, Popeyes, and Starbucks, a 24/7 convenience store, outdoor dining, and EV charging stations, along with parking spaces for 286 cars and 65 trucks (up from 78 cars and 35 trucks).

The project is being paid for by revenues from tolls.

Quote from: seicer on November 19, 2022, 10:17:25 AM
Beckley Travel Plaza to undergo renovations from the ground up (https://www.register-herald.com/news/beckley-travel-plaza-to-undergo-renovations-from-the-ground-up/article_cda965d6-6773-11ed-9951-ffecae992a55.html)

"In addition to a complete renovation of the Beckley Travel Plaza, Miller said major renovations will also take place at the Bluestone Travel Plaza and the Morton Travel Plaza near Burnwell totaling $152 million."

"The Beckley and Bluestone travel plazas will be the first to be updated and are being rebuilt from the ground up. Beginning Wednesday, Feb. 1, 2023, both with be closed to start the demolition and site redevelopment process."

--

There will be fuel available for passenger cars and trucks, along with temporary restroom facilities. The Tamarack will continue to have food operations, although I've heard that those hours may be expanded during construction.

The Beckley plaza will have Wendy's, Popeyes, and Starbucks, a 24/7 convenience store, outdoor dining, and EV charging stations, along with parking spaces for 286 cars and 65 trucks (up from 78 cars and 35 trucks).

The project is being paid for by revenues from tolls.

I don't understand how replacing three service plazas costs $152 million. Surely Pilot, Love's, and other chains aren't spending $50 million a pop on sites where they already own the property.

The Parkways Authority previously killed projects like a Shady Springs connector because they said they didn't have the money. Something like, even with a couple miles of new roadway, would still be cheaper and more useful than this project.

Just a McDonald's costs $3 million to build now. I heard a lady who owned a McDonald's talking about how she built a McDonald's in 2000 and it only cost $600,000 to put it up and now it's $3M. American construction costs are insane.

The Buc-ee's location along Interstate 75 in Kentucky cost about $30 million to develop in 2021-22. It included roadway infrastructure, extending water and sewer lines to the site, 120 gas pumps, a 53,000 square-foot building, and plenty of parking - and without the infrastructure to serve trucks, too.

With each of these plazas, it's a complete rebuilding from the ground up, which includes the removal of the old tanks, environmental remediation, and building tear-down in the first phase, and then installing new tanks and construction in the second phase. The lot site seems to be enlarged at the Beckley plaza to accommodate more parking, too. The building itself seems to be a big upgrade over the old one with more glass and premium materials, so I'm sure that adds to the cost. From what the PR said, it looks like this building will be around for a good 50 years or so so it needs to be resilient.

Demo and hauling the materials away is super expensive these days. That's why at any demo project with a sizeable amount of concrete they crush the concrete into "gravel" right there on site now to sell it to people for their driveways and such.

Depending on a state's prevailing wage laws, private entities can often procure labor at cheaper rates than can governmental agencies. If West Virginia has a state law requiring agencies to pay a certain wage, that inflates costs. Kentucky repealed its prevailing wage law for public projects a few years ago. That move alone saved a nearby school district (and the taxpayers) a huge chunk of change on construction costs.

When Kentucky advertises highway projects, prevailing wage applies only for federally-funded projects. if a project is state-funded, the only wage requirement is minimum wage.

I'm not sure how that would apply in West Virginia or to a toll agency, but my guess is that prevailing wage laws are still in effect there.

Quote from: hbelkins on November 21, 2022, 01:52:17 PM
Depending on a state's prevailing wage laws, private entities can often procure labor at cheaper rates than can governmental agencies. If West Virginia has a state law requiring agencies to pay a certain wage, that inflates costs. Kentucky repealed its prevailing wage law for public projects a few years ago. That move alone saved a nearby school district (and the taxpayers) a huge chunk of change on construction costs.

When Kentucky advertises highway projects, prevailing wage applies only for federally-funded projects. if a project is state-funded, the only wage requirement is minimum wage.

I'm not sure how that would apply in West Virginia or to a toll agency, but my guess is that prevailing wage laws are still in effect there.

West Virginia repealed prevailing wage for state-funded projects several years ago. The legislative majority promised large costs savings which have failed to materialize.

I'm not pulling off for yet another Wendy's. Popeye's maybe. What I liked about the service plazas back in the old days is that I could get food that was different than at home like Howard Johnson's and Roy Rogers. There's like 5 Wendy's (and their sodium) within 4 miles of me. Probably drive on back to Scamarack and see what they've got. Fast food costs almost as much as the Scamarack food these days so might as well dodge another Wendy's.

It beats Booger King, and that location is about as sad as any fast-food entity that you can find. I wish they would have nabbed Tudors Biscuit World.

TBW would have been awesome.

Quote from: seicer on November 21, 2022, 09:38:15 PM
It beats Booger King, and that location is about as sad as any fast-food entity that you can find. I wish they would have nabbed Tudors Biscuit World.

Quote from: GCrites80s on November 21, 2022, 09:39:41 PM
TBW would have been awesome.

Fortunately, there's a Gino's/Tudor's combo restaurant in front of the Walmart in MacArthur just off of Exit 42 west of the Turnpike.  Even better, this Tudor's stays open until 7PM (most of them close at 2PM and leave the rest of the day for Gino's customers).

I think I've figured out the pattern with TBW hours. TBWs that are close to other TBWs like you see in Huntington and Charleston close at 2 whereas ones that are on their own without other TBWs close by close at 7. So the Xenia Ohio one for example closes at 7.

Most Tudor's/Gino's belong to a guy named Oshell Craigo, who is a retired WV politician, or are franchised through his company. Those are the ones that close at 2PM.  However some still belong to the heirs of the Tudor family or were franchised by them before Craigo bought them out, these have more freedom and are often the ones open later.  Also different food items there some times.

Our Supreme Court had a case a couple of years back where there was a slip and fall and the lawyer screwed up and sued the Tudor family company and not the Craigo company, which was malpractice. 

BTW, Tudor's/Gino's used to be the concession the Charleston taxwaste airport, and still in in Huntington's. 

I always find the combination Tudor's/Ginos to be unique and a welcome find after a day of traveling. They are often the only player in town for something other than subs (Subway), but I hate how the hours are so early at the franchised locations. The company-owned locations are open later and offer some good and cheap dinner options.

I don't like Gino's nearly as much as TBW.

Quote from: GCrites80s on November 22, 2022, 12:20:58 PM
I don't like Gino's nearly as much as TBW.

Try a "Pizza Bread" sub or their famous "Steak Sandwich" sub instead.  They usually come well toasted, but just in case, I ask for mine "well toasted" just to get the old fashioned effect.  In most parts of West Virginia, they ask for lettuce, tomatoes, onions and mayo on the steak sandwich.  In more recent years, they've switched over to those wimpy sweet onions (in deference to old timers that want onions with a strong taste - kind of like our strong attraction to ramps).

Ooh... I wonder if my Roadgeek tendencies are because West Virginians were supposed to like ramps?   :hmmm:

On a related note, I use the showers at the Beckley service area quite frequently as I am often at or near New River Gorge. The showers are a more recent addition and will be sticking around as part of the trucker amenities in the new plaza. The Beckley service area / Tamarack makes for a great overnight spot to car camp in (in the Subaru) as it's quiet (in the Tamarack lot), legal, and convenient. The showers are cheap $5-7ish, but I've become friendly with the staff and often get it comped.

My question is: where are the nearest public showers? The closest truck stops are 20 minutes south of Bluefield along I-77 or in Covington, Virginia along I-64.

In spite of my West Virginia heritage and many trips to that state, I've never eaten at Gino's or Tudor's. There's a Tudor's in Pikeville now and there may be some other Kentucky locations opening up.

Quote from: GCrites80s on November 22, 2022, 10:46:08 AM
I think I've figured out the pattern with TBW hours. TBWs that are close to other TBWs like you see in Huntington and Charleston close at 2 whereas ones that are on their own without other TBWs close by close at 7. So the Xenia Ohio one for example closes at 7.

Nope. Locations in Morgantown and Bridgeport both close at 2pm and they're 30+ miles apart with no other TBWs nearby.

Quote from: Dirt Roads on November 22, 2022, 01:49:13 PM

Quote from: GCrites80s on November 22, 2022, 12:20:58 PM
I don't like Gino's nearly as much as TBW.

Try a "Pizza Bread" sub or their famous "Steak Sandwich" sub instead.  They usually come well toasted, but just in case, I ask for mine "well toasted" just to get the old fashioned effect.  In most parts of West Virginia, they ask for lettuce, tomatoes, onions and mayo on the steak sandwich.  In more recent years, they've switched over to those wimpy sweet onions (in deference to old timers that want onions with a strong taste - kind of like our strong attraction to ramps).

The Pubwich is also a good option for Gino's. It's my go-to when I eat there.

Quote from: Bitmapped on November 20, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
The Parkways Authority previously killed projects like a Shady Springs connector because they said they didn't have the money. Something like, even with a couple miles of new roadway, would still be cheaper and more useful than this project.

Exactly. Where is the cost/benefit analysis for adding an additional lane to US 19 to Shady Spring vs building this connector? They basically serve the same purpose and adding an additional lane to Eisenhower Dr did nothing to alleviate congestion (hence a bypass being built) nor did widening US19 to Beaver (building Z-way connector to I-64 to bypass Beaver). They just never learn.

Quote from: Black-Man on November 27, 2022, 09:48:33 AM

Quote from: Bitmapped on November 20, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
The Parkways Authority previously killed projects like a Shady Spring connector because they said they didn't have the money. Something like, even with a couple miles of new roadway, would still be cheaper and more useful than this project.

Exactly. Where is the cost/benefit analysis for adding an additional lane to US 19 to Shady Spring vs building this connector? They basically serve the same purpose and adding an additional lane to Eisenhower Dr did nothing to alleviate congestion (hence a bypass being built) nor did widening US19 to Beaver (building Z-way connector to I-64 to bypass Beaver). They just never learn.

I don't think the Shady Spring connector would eliminate the need for improvements along US 19 as there is a lot of traffic to places along the existing corridor, but it would divert some traffic.

The center turn lane construction on Eisenhower Drive was useful and an improvement. The problem is that the road has too much traffic and really needed widening to 5 lanes. WV 7 through the Sabraton section of Morgantown has the same issue - it really needed widening to 5 lanes but WVDOH cheaped out and just put in a center turn lane. IMO, widening Eisenhower Drive to five lanes would have been a more useful project than the bypass that was built.

I think funds would have been better allocated to widening Eisenhower Drive and adding proper infrastructure - sidewalks, lighting, etc. So much of Beckley's roadways lack even the basics for a city of its size, but at least it's now looped with a five-lane boulevard with a useless center turn lane with sidewalks no one will ever use because it's so far out of the city.

Where was the Shady Springs Connector going to connect to? US 19 south of Beckley can be an absolute slog.

I'm still trying to find the ultimate build out for Exit 45. It's designed to connect to Pinewood Drive to the east and Dry Hill Road to the west.

Quote from: seicer on November 27, 2022, 10:28:51 AM
Where was the Shady Springs Connector going to connect to? US 19 south of Beckley can be an absolute slog.

I don't believe I ever saw a specific route planned, although the discussions talked about a connector as well so I'm assuming its's not at an existing crossing of the Turnpike. Something that left US 19 right by the WV 3 intersection and followed Whitby Road and Left Fork Beaver Creek over to the Turnpike would seem to make sense.

Quote from: seicer on November 27, 2022, 10:28:51 AM
Where was the Shady Springs Connector going to connect to? US 19 south of Beckley can be an absolute slog.

Quote from: Bitmapped on November 28, 2022, 09:33:20 AM
I don't believe I ever saw a specific route planned, although the discussions talked about a connector as well so I'm assuming its's not at an existing crossing of the Turnpike. Something that left US 19 right by the WV 3 intersection and followed Whitby Road and Left Fork Beaver Creek over to the Turnpike would seem to make sense.

Indeed, there was never any EIS routes developed for the Shady Spring Connector.  The state Legislature required that the Parkways Authority complete a study of the new interchange during the planning of the (now completed) widening, as a condition of the state granting additional bonding authority back in 2004.  Two years later, after the Parkways Authority dragged its heels on the Shady Spring Connector study and frittered away at the widening project, the Legislature took out the Shady Spring Connector mandate and put a lid on future sale of bonds for the widening project.  However, it looks like the Parkways Authority has archived the data collected by Howard Needles Tammen and Bergendoff (HNTB). 

You might be able to contact them to see if a copy of the project overview is available for viewing.  However, such information probably cannot be released to the public because in West Virginia any proposed highway right-of-way will lock up the affected properties with respect to the State not being responsible for the cost of acquisition of new structures built after the proposed right-of-way becoming public.

https://www.register-herald.com/news/local_news/turnpike-may-archive-shady-spring-interchange-data/article_3ed5e68a-15f5-5bf9-adad-58bc101b93c5.html

Interesting bits about the Turnpike from 1978: https://mapwv.gov/DOTLivePlans/Scanning/ProjectBookFolders/P_41_1_0077_00_002_1978_S00699/PDF/P_41_1_0077_00_002_1978_S00699.pdf

No ramp tolls for I-64 (and showing the configuration for the other ramps on the Turnpike):
(https://i.imgur.com/yPuCk3b.png)

There are tunnels under the toll plazas. I assumed they existed:
(https://i.imgur.com/9GfteuX.png)

Quote from: seicer on November 28, 2022, 06:33:45 PM
Interesting bits about the Turnpike from 1978: https://mapwv.gov/DOTLivePlans/Scanning/ProjectBookFolders/P_41_1_0077_00_002_1978_S00699/PDF/P_41_1_0077_00_002_1978_S00699.pdf

No ramp tolls for I-64 (and showing the configuration for the other ramps on the Turnpike):
(https://i.imgur.com/yPuCk3b.png)

There are tunnels under the toll plazas. I assumed they existed:
(https://i.imgur.com/9GfteuX.png)

Yeah, they were common on other toll roads, too.

Quote from: seicer on November 27, 2022, 10:28:51 AM
I'm still trying to find the ultimate build out for Exit 45. It's designed to connect to Pinewood Drive to the east and Dry Hill Road to the west.

I was glancing at the Raleigh/Fayette Regional Planning Transportation study PDF and they listed a 4-lane overpass connecting Van Kirk Dr and Pikeview/New River Dr in their master plan for 2026+ (along with New River Dr improvements and removal of tolls on the US19 exit). I would venture a guess the only item which won't get done is the removal of tolls on US 19.

The North Beckley toll plaza is going cashless next year.

More EZPass Lanes Coming To West Virginia Turnpike Next Year (https://wvpublic.org/more-ezpass-lanes-coming-to-west-virginia-turnpike-next-year/?fbclid=IwAR0q_C1NmJ4prhqtxhqSnnhDqM13UUMMRSj_6i_kfc8wk71lAlb7dy0N9B0_aem_Ab4QZ9fCDcU5TQda6L1zqBwu_21XB2bEf3EO3a0BpfXyB0Uw-1cC99qQ_PrBV_HOFqU&mibextid=Zxz2cZ)

Quote from: 74/171FAN on September 21, 2023, 12:30:40 AM
The North Beckley toll plaza is going cashless next year.

More EZPass Lanes Coming To West Virginia Turnpike Next Year (https://wvpublic.org/more-ezpass-lanes-coming-to-west-virginia-turnpike-next-year/?fbclid=IwAR0q_C1NmJ4prhqtxhqSnnhDqM13UUMMRSj_6i_kfc8wk71lAlb7dy0N9B0_aem_Ab4QZ9fCDcU5TQda6L1zqBwu_21XB2bEf3EO3a0BpfXyB0Uw-1cC99qQ_PrBV_HOFqU&mibextid=Zxz2cZ)

Interesting... maybe they are testing the system to eventually go cashless on the mainline?

The WVTP had no plans to go completely cashless at any of their toll plazas just a few years ago, as the EZ-Pass rate was comparably low compared to other toll highways. Most traffic is not local and those types of drivers more likely than not do not have EZ-Pass. As of this year, it looks like the ETC rate at the mainline plazas is 55%-62%.

The North Beckley Plaza is more commuter-dependent. It's cheap, and even more so if you have the Single Fee Discount Plan ($25/year for unlimited travel), which has led the EZ-Pass rate to dramatically increase. There isn't a good reason not to use EZ-Pass there if you live in the area, and using the Turnpike to bypass Beckley saves so much time.

Quote from: seicer on September 21, 2023, 09:25:32 AM
The WVTP had no plans to go completely cashless at any of their toll plazas just a few years ago, as the EZ-Pass rate was comparably low compared to other toll highways. Most traffic is not local and those types of drivers more likely than not do not have EZ-Pass. As of this year, it looks like the ETC rate at the mainline plazas is 55%-62%.

The article says EZPass acceptance is near 70% on the mainline. I was on it last Thursday, and they had 1 EZPass-only lane open southbound and of course there was a backup at Cheylan and Pax. It's almost like they are trolling us.

Quote from: Black-Man on October 12, 2023, 03:57:56 PM

Quote from: seicer on September 21, 2023, 09:25:32 AM
The WVTP had no plans to go completely cashless at any of their toll plazas just a few years ago, as the EZ-Pass rate was comparably low compared to other toll highways. Most traffic is not local and those types of drivers more likely than not do not have EZ-Pass. As of this year, it looks like the ETC rate at the mainline plazas is 55%-62%.

The article says EZPass acceptance is near 70% on the mainline. I was on it last Thursday, and they had 1 EZPass-only lane open southbound and of course there was a backup at Cheylan and Pax. It's almost like they are trolling us.

I think they still get rid of the E-ZPass lanes entirely on holiday weekends, when there are infamously long delays at the plazas. Aside from the "make work" element of having toll takers, the WV Turnpike is crying to be converted to AET.

https://wvmetronews.com/2023/10/13/yeager-bridge-in-charleston-rededicated-after-repairs-and-paint-job/

Commentary #1: The bridge looks, well, tacky.  Bridges are not a proper place for rah-rah sports boosterism.  Unless they are going to paint the bridge on an accelerated basis, it will look takier as the gloss fades.

Commentary #2:  Gen. Yeager donated much of his time, a lot of his money, and his name to a different university.  Paint some bridge names after someone else blue and yellow.

^^^
Ran the Turnpike twice in the past three weeks.  Was surprised about the low clearance (and low speeds) on the Yeager northbound span due to the paint canopy hanging beneath the through-truss.  From the looks of things, a few trucks actually sliced into the canopy.

Quote from: SP Cook on October 15, 2023, 11:44:19 AM
Commentary #2:  Gen. Yeager donated much of his time, a lot of his money, and his name to a different university.  Paint some bridge names after someone else blue and yellow.

When in Huntington a few weeks ago, I recalled seeing a few bridges painted in that other color you are eluding to.  But it looks like WVDOH is repainting the West Huntington Tollbridge (US-52, and hasn't been tolled for many decades) in the standard shade of dark green.  Marshall fans were also upset when the I-64 Fort Hill Bridge in Charleston was repainted blue.

I wonder if this paint job is of better quality than the new Wellsburg Bridge (which I previously posted about). I came through the Yeager Bridge project late at night a few weeks ago and saw what appeared to be incomplete passes with the paint gun. It looked sloppy, but I wonder if that was from the paint crews not stripping the paint completely off of the steel members to begin with.

@Dirt Roads: There was a major incident some time ago after an oversized truck sliced through the canopy, leading to heavy steel wires dangling from the canopy and damaging multiple vehicles at night: https://www.wsaz.com/2023/07/19/parkway-authority-new-safety-measures-motorists-effective-immediately-following-pair-incidents-yeager-bridge/

Related, the painting is wrapping up (or wrapped up?) on the Robert C. Byrd Bridge on WV 527 in downtown Huntington. It's the same shade of paint that is on the West Huntington Bridge for US 52 which was repainted (IIRC) when it was rehabilitated some years back. I looked up the color some time ago as I was curious what the standard shade of green was for the state, but I can't recall what that is now.

That darker shade of green will age more gracefully than a bright green monstrosity. 😅

Quote from: seicer on October 15, 2023, 08:50:49 PM
I wonder if this paint job is of better quality than the new Wellsburg Bridge (which I previously posted about). I came through the Yeager Bridge project late at night a few weeks ago and saw what appeared to be incomplete passes with the paint gun. It looked sloppy, but I wonder if that was from the paint crews not stripping the paint completely off of the steel members to begin with.

@Dirt Roads: There was a major incident some time ago after an oversized truck sliced through the canopy, leading to heavy steel wires dangling from the canopy and damaging multiple vehicles at night: https://www.wsaz.com/2023/07/19/parkway-authority-new-safety-measures-motorists-effective-immediately-following-pair-incidents-yeager-bridge/

Related, the painting is wrapping up (or wrapped up?) on the Robert C. Byrd Bridge on WV 527 in downtown Huntington. It's the same shade of paint that is on the West Huntington Bridge for US 52 which was repainted (IIRC) when it was rehabilitated some years back. I looked up the color some time ago as I was curious what the standard shade of green was for the state, but I can't recall what that is now.

That darker shade of green will age more gracefully than a bright green monstrosity. 😅

FWIW, old gold and blue are the official colors of the state itself, not just WVU. That being said, I agree the two colors side-by-side on the Yeager Bridges are tacky and unlikely to hold up well. The state used a gold-and-blue scheme on the Market Street Bridge at Steubenville about a decade ago and it's not held up well at all, although I don't know if the state cheaped out on the paint figuring the bridge only needed to last until the Wellsburg Bridge was completed.

The green used on the West Huntington Bridge is WV standard for green-painted bridges. WVDOH tends use green or gray for bridge paint, although in recent years it has normally done Corten steel or concrete beams for most projects.

Kentucky's standard bridge colors are green and blue. I would be surprised if that's not the standard for nearly every other state.

There was a controversy a few years ago when the KY 52 bridge crossing the Kentucky River at Irvine (pronounced "Ervin," not "Ir-vine") was up for a repainting. The widow of a firefighter killed in action(*), for whom the bridge had been named, wanted the bridge to be painted red and black. That idea was nixed, in large part because red and black are the school colors for Estill County High School's neighbor and rival Powell County. The bridge was repainted the same shade of green that it had been for years.

https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/KYTC/bulletins/327dc77

(*)The firefigher in question was actually not on duty when he died. He had returned home after responding to a call and died later that night. But for some reason, his death was classified as while on duty.

Quote from: Bitmapped on October 16, 2023, 12:09:05 PM
FWIW, old gold and blue are the official colors of the state itself, not just WVU.

WVU changed over from the official old gold and blue to Don Nehlen's "Dark Beloo and Brite Yaller" back in 1980, the same time as the Flying WV hit the side of the football helmets.  There's been a few color tweaks along the way, but I was surprised that this year WVU has switched back to colors much closer to the official state colors.  It is interesting that the brand-new colors used on the Yeager Bridge are already a throwback to the past.

By the way, my wife (who is indeed from North Carolina) can't stand how most of us West Virginians pronounce the word "color".  To me, it sounds the same as "collar" and "caller".  To her and other Southerners, all three of those words are pronounced differently.  Which leads me back to how West Virginians say "pernownzed".  For some reason, that one doesn't bother her.

Quote from: Dirt Roads on October 16, 2023, 09:32:09 PM

Quote from: Bitmapped on October 16, 2023, 12:09:05 PM
FWIW, old gold and blue are the official colors of the state itself, not just WVU.

WVU changed over from the official old gold and blue to Don Nehlen's "Dark Beloo and Brite Yaller" back in 1980, the same time as the Flying WV hit the side of the football helmets.  There's been a few color tweaks along the way, but I was surprised that this year WVU has switched back to colors much closer to the official state colors.  It is interesting that the brand-new colors used on the Yeager Bridge are already a throwback to the past.

I can't speak to athletics uniforms, but the colors used by WVU itself for branding and marketing haven't changed. They're the exact same Pantone colors they've been for 20+ years.

Old Gold and Blue have also been the official colors of the state since March 8, 1963. Those colors in the state seal had been used since the state's independence in 1863 (https://wvpublic.org/march-8-1963-w-va-legislature-adopts-blue-and-gold-as-the-official-state-colors/).

WVU's colors were derived from the state seal in 1890 (https://www.alumni.wvu.edu/traditions/school-colors).

I haven't found anything about the 1980 reference other than Niehlen working to get WVU logo adopted with the Old Gold and Blue scheme (https://magazine-archive.wvu.edu/stories/2015/05/18/the-legend-of-the-flying-wv). Previously, players had helmets that were gold (not Old Gold, too) and bore the state's outline with the letters WVU in an oval. It's one of my favorite logos, personally.

Quote from: Bitmapped on November 28, 2022, 09:33:20 AM
I don't believe I ever saw a specific route planned, although the discussions talked about a connector as well so I'm assuming its's not at an existing crossing of the Turnpike. Something that left US 19 right by the WV 3 intersection and followed Whitby Road and Left Fork Beaver Creek over to the Turnpike would seem to make sense.

I have a feeling this plan is going to be revisited with the 8 data centers on 400 acres and its 600 employees going in off of US19 south of Shady. Funny how the awarding of the contract to add a single lane to US19 was in October and is already inadequate. Projects of this size usually come with highway and infrastructure enhancements as part of the announcement. Otherwise, local opposition gets vocal when congestion is already added to a congested area and the first zoning hearing was not a good look for the WV DOH as they were a no-show.

Wouldn't the Fayette/Raleigh MPO (FRM) be more involved at this level than WVDOH? The organization would have more intimate knowledge of what is needed. But projects like the US 19 corridor improvements have been many years in the planning/study, with improvements along the corridor proposed by the FRM (unsure if the contracts are let yet). But just as important, a contract to build the south leg of the "Z Way" Beckley bypass from Interstate 64 south towards Shady Spring was awarded in November: https://transportation.wv.gov/communications/PressRelease/Pages/WVDOH_awards_contracts_for_Beckley_ZWay_and_other_work.aspx

Quote from: seicer on December 23, 2023, 07:01:58 PM
Wouldn't the Fayette/Raleigh MPO (FRM) be more involved at this level than WVDOH? The organization would have more intimate knowledge of what is needed. But projects like the US 19 corridor improvements have been many years in the planning/study, with improvements along the corridor proposed by the FRM (unsure if the contracts are let yet). But just as important, a contract to build the south leg of the "Z Way" Beckley bypass from Interstate 64 south towards Shady Spring was awarded in November: https://transportation.wv.gov/communications/PressRelease/Pages/WVDOH_awards_contracts_for_Beckley_ZWay_and_other_work.aspx

MPOs are a formality in West Virginia. They exist to sign whatever paperwork and adopt whatever TIP amendments WVDOH tells them to approve.

As for the data centers, I'll believe it when I see it with 600 employees. That would be a much heavier staffing level than you normally see. Even if it is that level, you don't really have shipments in and out and you don't have customers visiting. We're talking probably 1200-2000 trips a day, spread out over the all hours to account for round-the-clock staffing. Other than whatever side road connects to US 19, I doubt there would be a significant need for upgrades.

Hm.  Does WV have no locally-administered federal-aid projects, then?  That seems highly unlikely.

Quote from: Rothman on December 24, 2023, 12:23:32 AM
Hm.  Does WV have no locally-administered federal-aid projects, then?  That seems highly unlikely.

Bear in mind that most infrastructure in WV is owned by the state. Counties don't own anything. In cities, most of the major roads are owned by the state by virtue of being a US, WV, or county route. That leaves a relatively small number of routes that are significant enough to qualify for federal aid but that are still municipally maintained.

Federal aid dollars do get used for municipal bridges, but WVDOH normally ends up administering those projects because the local governments generally lack the capacity to do so. Charleston is really the only municipality I can think of that has significant bridges on federal aid-eligible roads that are municipally maintained inside an MPO. I think they have let some projects on their own but it's been a while since one of their larger bridges has had a significant rehab.

I've not seen a paving project on a federal aid-eligible municipally-maintained street that has used federal dollars. The municipality inevitably foots the entire bill itself.

As an example of what I mean about WVDOH dictating things, look at the TIP for the Morgantown-Monongalia MPO. (See https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IcV9LlBIKNws8HyIZoKt0k60TUVQEoc9F-VbIkVwrj8/edit#gid=0). Those two projects at the very end for the Morgantown Industrial Park Access road are brand new. A company in the industrial park was promised a new I-79 interchange, but FHWA was taking too long to sign off on an interchange justification study. The company whined to the state, so boom, a new $80 million bridge across the Monongahela River appears out of thin air and presented to the MPO to add to the TIP. Nobody asked for this bridge other than the one company. It was not in the long-term planning the MPO had done. But because the company wants it, the state wants it, and the state threatened the MPO they'd pull funding from other projects the community does want if they didn't put it on the TIP.

Is this how it is supposed to work? No. Is it the reality of how things work with MPOs in West Virginia? Unfortunately, yes.

I would think that MPOs help WVDOH prioritize projects and complete studies, which is what the FRM has been doing for the Beckley area. They completed studies on US 19 (as an example) that are leading to significant improvements near Beaver. Other MPOs, like the KYOVA Interstate Planning Commission, have led to projects along Hal Greer Blvd. being built by WVDOH; that one particular MPO is leading the study on the Outerbelt crossing project, too. I think these MPOs are required for federal funding purposes.

Quote from: Bitmapped on December 24, 2023, 09:08:31 AM

Quote from: Rothman on December 24, 2023, 12:23:32 AM
Hm.  Does WV have no locally-administered federal-aid projects, then?  That seems highly unlikely.

Bear in mind that most infrastructure in WV is owned by the state. Counties don't own anything. In cities, most of the major roads are owned by the state by virtue of being a US, WV, or county route. That leaves a relatively small number of routes that are significant enough to qualify for federal aid but that are still municipally maintained.

Federal aid dollars do get used for municipal bridges, but WVDOH normally ends up administering those projects because the local governments generally lack the capacity to do so. Charleston is really the only municipality I can think of that has significant bridges on federal aid-eligible roads that are municipally maintained inside an MPO. I think they have let some projects on their own but it's been a while since one of their larger bridges has had a significant rehab.

I've not seen a paving project on a federal aid-eligible municipally-maintained street that has used federal dollars. The municipality inevitably foots the entire bill itself.

As an example of what I mean about WVDOH dictating things, look at the TIP for the Morgantown-Monongalia MPO. (See https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IcV9LlBIKNws8HyIZoKt0k60TUVQEoc9F-VbIkVwrj8/edit#gid=0). Those two projects at the very end for the Morgantown Industrial Park Access road are brand new. A company in the industrial park was promised a new I-79 interchange, but FHWA was taking too long to sign off on an interchange justification study. The company whined to the state, so boom, a new $80 million bridge across the Monongahela River appears out of thin air and presented to the MPO to add to the TIP. Nobody asked for this bridge other than the one company. It was not in the long-term planning the MPO had done. But because the company wants it, the state wants it, and the state threatened the MPO they'd pull funding from other projects the community does want if they didn't put it on the TIP.

Is this how it is supposed to work? No. Is it the reality of how things work with MPOs in West Virginia? Unfortunately, yes.

Interesting.  Should have remembered about the State/Local mix in WV -- Makes a lot of sense for WVDOT just to say "federal for me, not you" and thus retain a lot of control over its programming.

Still, even without corprorate pushing, you'd be surprised how many projects just appear to be added to the TIP outside of WV, a lot of times even for the better.

NYSDOT MO withholds some federal funds as a reserve (not the funds that must go to MPOs, like STBG Lg Urban and the other urban categories).  So, a lot of MPOs get a suballocation (not all), but then NYSDOT can come marching in and say a project is being funded with that reserve funding and be added to the TIP without affecting fiscal constraint.  I am aware of only a couple of major projects that were to benefit private companies in some way, but most of the time, the reserve is actually used for projects NYSDOT regions cannot afford or particular, statewide asset-based initiatives.

Quote from: Bitmapped on December 24, 2023, 09:08:31 AM

Quote from: Rothman on December 24, 2023, 12:23:32 AM
Hm.  Does WV have no locally-administered federal-aid projects, then?  That seems highly unlikely.

Bear in mind that most infrastructure in WV is owned by the state. Counties don't own anything. In cities, most of the major roads are owned by the state by virtue of being a US, WV, or county route. That leaves a relatively small number of routes that are significant enough to qualify for federal aid but that are still municipally maintained.

Federal aid dollars do get used for municipal bridges, but WVDOH normally ends up administering those projects because the local governments generally lack the capacity to do so. Charleston is really the only municipality I can think of that has significant bridges on federal aid-eligible roads that are municipally maintained inside an MPO. I think they have let some projects on their own but it's been a while since one of their larger bridges has had a significant rehab.

I've not seen a paving project on a federal aid-eligible municipally-maintained street that has used federal dollars. The municipality inevitably foots the entire bill itself.

As an example of what I mean about WVDOH dictating things, look at the TIP for the Morgantown-Monongalia MPO. (See https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IcV9LlBIKNws8HyIZoKt0k60TUVQEoc9F-VbIkVwrj8/edit#gid=0). Those two projects at the very end for the Morgantown Industrial Park Access road are brand new. A company in the industrial park was promised a new I-79 interchange, but FHWA was taking too long to sign off on an interchange justification study. The company whined to the state, so boom, a new $80 million bridge across the Monongahela River appears out of thin air and presented to the MPO to add to the TIP. Nobody asked for this bridge other than the one company. It was not in the long-term planning the MPO had done. But because the company wants it, the state wants it, and the state threatened the MPO they'd pull funding from other projects the community does want if they didn't put it on the TIP.

Is this how it is supposed to work? No. Is it the reality of how things work with MPOs in West Virginia? Unfortunately, yes.

That's a good point about how much the state maintains.  I was wondering how WVDOH could dictate terms to the MPOs given how powerful the larger ones are in NY, but I imagine that's a lot easier when they aren't competing with anyone else for funding.

Quote from: Bitmapped on December 23, 2023, 09:09:23 PM
MPOs are a formality in West Virginia. They exist to sign whatever paperwork and adopt whatever TIP amendments WVDOH tells them to approve.

As for the data centers, I'll believe it when I see it with 600 employees. That would be a much heavier staffing level than you normally see. Even if it is that level, you don't really have shipments in and out and you don't have customers visiting. We're talking probably 1200-2000 trips a day, spread out over the all hours to account for round-the-clock staffing. Other than whatever side road connects to US 19, I doubt there would be a significant need for upgrades.

The presentation from the developer showed 8 large buildings and they stated 500-600 employees. It is to be located a mile or so south of where the additional lane is being added to US19. The locals were quite adamant about the increased traffic. I assume you realize that there is more to this development than the data centers.

Eh, 600 workers spread over three shifts is a significant addition but not unmanageable for a two or three-lane road, where most of the traffic is more than likely going north and then over to the Beckley bypass extension. Nucor (steel mill) is coming to WV 2 down in Mason County and is bringing with it 800 jobs. It's next to another plant that has hundreds of jobs. The road could stand to see improvements, such as added shoulders, but it's nowhere close to needing four lanes.

Highways are generally not designed for peak traffic conditions, such as what may be experienced around shift change. If that was the case, we'd have many more roads built for much more capacity than is ever realized.

600 workers maybe while they're building the data centers, but once they're up and running they will probably only need a hundred or so who will actually need to keep the servers running, spread across three shifts.  Software upgrades can and do occur remotely.  So more/good hotels, especially of the (upper scale) extended-stay variety, should be built.  New housing, not so much.

I've worked in a lot of massive data centers over my 25+ years in telecom equipment installation, and the buildings are massive but don't need many workers.  A good example of this is one for American Express outside of Greensboro, NC that I've worked at a few times.  It's the size of at least two football fields, but has a rather small parking lot that was never full when I would visit during the day.  And this was pre-pandemic.

Quote from: seicer on January 03, 2024, 07:59:20 PM
Eh, 600 workers spread over three shifts is a significant addition but not unmanageable for a two or three-lane road

It is already congested and has been this way for nearly 40 years. Glade Springs built an entrance on the back side so as to get to I-64 at Bragg! Last night the Raleigh county commission tabled the zoning request until the WV DOH completes a traffic study. Something the DOH should have done in preparation for this development to begin with. I have no doubt the connector to the Turnpike with a new interchange will be on the docket. They just better get the plans approved while Jim Justice is governor or it definitely will never get done.

Any connector to the Turnpike would be a 10 to 15-year project, considering that it has not gone through any formal planning or environmental review. It's not getting built in Justice's lifetime and he'll be dead before anything is built. The Beckley Z-Way bypass project assumed (https://transportation.wv.gov/highways/engineering/comment/closed/BeckleyZWayShadySpringsToBeaver/EA/Appendix%20B-Final%20Design%20Study%20Report.pdf) that the Turnpike would not be building a Shady Spring connector or interchange, so I'm not sure if that's an indication that it was never seriously considered or if it was just a pipedream. In 2006, the Legislature removed the requirement for the Turnpike to study an interchange at Shady Spring (HB 4439/SB557) but it looked like it was being re-evaluated (https://www.register-herald.com/news/money/article_6f9efc51-7c71-5035-92d2-07e17a120af3.html) in 2014.

Meanwhile, a contract was let in June to build the Beckley Z-Way bypass between Interstate 64/S. Eisenhower Drive and CR 19/54 in Beaver. I'm not sure when the contract to widen 3.7 miles of US 19 from CR 19/54 in Beaver to WV 3 at Shady Spring, but a FONSI was completed in 2023.

Major accident at the Ghent Toll Plaza today.  Multiple fatalities.

https://www.wvva.com/2024/03/11/update-wvdot-confirms-multi-vehicle-accident-caused-fire-ghent-toll-plaza/?outputType=apps

They really need to go cashless along the entire roadway!

Quote from: wriddle082 on March 11, 2024, 09:44:17 PM
Major accident at the Ghent Toll Plaza today.  Multiple fatalities.

https://www.wvva.com/2024/03/11/update-wvdot-confirms-multi-vehicle-accident-caused-fire-ghent-toll-plaza/?outputType=apps

They really need to go cashless along the entire roadway!

I agree. AET would improve safety and also eliminate the notorious holiday travel backups at the toll plazas, but the WV Parkways Authority doesn't seem interested. They're doing an upgrade to the existing toll collection system. I suspect there would be a strong resistance to eliminating toll taker jobs just because they are decently paying jobs for the area.

All Electronic Toll Collection (ETC) is coming to the US 19 ramp tolls. I'm not sure if additional ETC-only lanes will be retrofitted at the mainline toll plazas, but it would be nice if they were segregated. ETC penetration is at 59%, rising at about 1-2% per year. I can't find the document on the Parkways Authority website, but it had cost and a lower penetration rate as the biggest justification for why ETC would not (yet) be coming to the mainline tolls.

The existing toll system and software are quite old and date to 2008-12 (which replaced the original system from 1999-2000), with some incremental upgrades since then. The hardware processors are slow, so the lanes are keyed for a speed limit of 5 MPH. The new system being implanted lane-by-lane involves replacing all hardware and moving the software to cloud-based operations.

Quote from: wriddle082 on March 11, 2024, 09:44:17 PM
Major accident at the Ghent Toll Plaza today.  Multiple fatalities.

https://www.wvva.com/2024/03/11/update-wvdot-confirms-multi-vehicle-accident-caused-fire-ghent-toll-plaza/?outputType=apps

They really need to go cashless along the entire roadway!

Admittedly wasn't alive when the fatal wreck at the Stratford CT toll plaza happened, but this one seems similar to that. And judging by some of the photos, there was some serious fire damage done to the toll plaza that'll take some time to repair. If the Stratford wreck pushed CT to eliminating tolls, I wonder if this could push the WVPA to AET on a faster timeline (presumably they're using the US 19 North Beckley ramp as a pilot and will work out any kinks there prior to potentially pushing out to the mainline).

I'm surprised the ETC penetration rate that Seicer referenced isn't higher given the WVPA's annual fee plan, but then I guess the I-77 corridor does handle a decent amount of out-of-state traffic that doesn't otherwise pass thru E-ZPass territory.

The House of Delegates overwhelmingly approved a plan to remove tolls from the West Virginia Turnpike in 2013: https://wvmetronews.com/2013/04/03/house-votes-overwhelmingly-to-take-tolls-off-turnpike/. However, the proposal was nixed in 2016: https://web.archive.org/web/20210816133828/https://transportation.wv.gov/Turnpike/about/Documents/Resolution%20in%20support%20of%20the%20continuation%20of%20tolls%20on%20the%20WV%20Tu.pdf. Maybe now the tolls will be removed or they will convert to AET (if they can find the money to undertake the conversion, which may be why it hasn't happened yet).

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 13, 2024, 01:01:01 PM
The House of Delegates overwhelmingly approved a plan to remove tolls from the West Virginia Turnpike in 2013: https://wvmetronews.com/2013/04/03/house-votes-overwhelmingly-to-take-tolls-off-turnpike/. However, the proposal was nixed in 2016: https://web.archive.org/web/20210816133828/https://transportation.wv.gov/Turnpike/about/Documents/Resolution%20in%20support%20of%20the%20continuation%20of%20tolls%20on%20the%20WV%20Tu.pdf. Maybe now the tolls will be removed or they will convert to AET (if they can find the money to undertake the conversion, which may be why it hasn't happened yet).

The tolls aren't going away for decades. The state issued hundreds of millions in toll revenue bonds as part of the "Roads to Prosperity" program passed in 2017.

The history of the bonds/tolls, in a nutshell.

- The only actual borrowing for construction on the Turnpike was for the "super 2" road built in 1954.  These bonds paid off in 1987.
- The state was broke in 1987, so it came up with the legal fiction that some how the turnpike commission (the state) owed the DOH (the state) for the four lane upgrade.  So they refinanced it all over again.  These bonds have also been paid off.   There was a lot of hot air at the time, including renaming the Turnpike Commission into this "Economic Development, Tourism and Parkways Authority", but that was just for the rubes, there was no money (legally) spent on those things, and the state already had an economic development office and a tourism office.
- The signature deal of current governor "Big Jim" Justice was to borrow $1.6B for this "roads to prosperity" program.   These are technically "general obligation bonds" and are based on "grant anticipation" (we expect the feds will give us $X in year X, so we are going to borrow the money now.)  Part of the deal was to extend, and massively raise, the turnpike tolls.  Again for PR reasons, part of the deal is that supposedly a disproportionate amount of the money would be spent in a 10 county "turnpike zone", but that really hasn't been the case.  These bonds pay off in 2046, although some other politicians believe that the part relative to the turnpike can be closed out in 2030. 

The current deal is a form of "soak the stranger".  A yearly pass is $26.50, and you can deduct it from your state taxes.   

Quote from: jmacswimmer on March 13, 2024, 09:55:05 AM

Quote from: wriddle082 on March 11, 2024, 09:44:17 PM
Major accident at the Ghent Toll Plaza today.  Multiple fatalities.

https://www.wvva.com/2024/03/11/update-wvdot-confirms-multi-vehicle-accident-caused-fire-ghent-toll-plaza/?outputType=apps

They really need to go cashless along the entire roadway!

Admittedly wasn't alive when the fatal wreck at the Stratford CT toll plaza happened, but this one seems similar to that. And judging by some of the photos, there was some serious fire damage done to the toll plaza that'll take some time to repair. If the Stratford wreck pushed CT to eliminating tolls, I wonder if this could push the WVPA to AET on a faster timeline (presumably they're using the US 19 North Beckley ramp as a pilot and will work out any kinks there prior to potentially pushing out to the mainline).

I'm surprised the ETC penetration rate that Seicer referenced isn't higher given the WVPA's annual fee plan, but then I guess the I-77 corridor does handle a decent amount of out-of-state traffic that doesn't otherwise pass thru E-ZPass territory.

There's been numerous crashes and deaths at various toll plazas since that incident, and I don't think any resulted in discontinued tolls or all ETC.

One recent example: https://www.nj.com/bergen/2024/01/driver-killed-in-fiery-wreck-at-nj-turnpike-toll-plaza.html

Quote from: SP Cook on March 14, 2024, 10:29:11 AM
- The signature deal of current governor "Big Jim" Justice was to borrow $1.6B for this "roads to prosperity" program.   These are technically "general obligation bonds" and are based on "grant anticipation" (we expect the feds will give us $X in year X, so we are going to borrow the money now.)  Part of the deal was to extend, and massively raise, the turnpike tolls.  Again for PR reasons, part of the deal is that supposedly a disproportionate amount of the money would be spent in a 10 county "turnpike zone", but that really hasn't been the case.  These bonds pay off in 2046, although some other politicians believe that the part relative to the turnpike can be closed out in 2030. 

The current deal is a form of "soak the stranger".  A yearly pass is $26.50, and you can deduct it from your state taxes.   

Roads to Prosperity had two sets of bonds issued. General obligation bonds, permitted by a voter-passed constitutional amendment, were issued for projects all over the state including, inexplicably, the Beckley area widening on the Turnpike. A second set of bonds, backed solely by toll revenue on the Turnpike from increased tolls, is for projects in the 10-county area of the southern part of the state. Most of those projects are off-turnpike.

I've been on toll roads in upwards of a dozen states and I've yet to encounter one like the WV Turnpike. The biggest issue is not properly separating EZPass traffic. At Cheylan you could literally come up to within a few hundred yards before recognizing the dedicated EZPass lanes. They are literally encouraging the most dangerous driving tactic on a highway - the weave. They could just read this:
https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/rpt/tcstoll/pdf/best_practices.pdf (https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/rpt/tcstoll/pdf/best_practices.pdf)

Then they would see the recommendation that the dedicated ETC lanes should be on the LEFT among other recommendations they ignore. The physical tolling area has not been upgraded in 45 years. The Service Plaza has priority over tolling?!?

Quote from: Black-Man on March 14, 2024, 05:10:26 PM
I've been on toll roads in upwards of a dozen states and I've yet to encounter one like the WV Turnpike. The biggest issue is not properly separating EZPass traffic. At Cheylan you could literally come up to within a few hundred yards before recognizing the dedicated EZPass lanes. They are literally encouraging the most dangerous driving tactic on a highway - the weave. They could just read this:
https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/rpt/tcstoll/pdf/best_practices.pdf (https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/rpt/tcstoll/pdf/best_practices.pdf)

Then they would see the recommendation that the dedicated ETC lanes should be on the LEFT among other recommendations they ignore. The physical tolling area has not been upgraded in 45 years. The Service Plaza has priority over tolling?!?

As hard as it to believe, ETC on the West Virginia Turnpike was envisioned to be primarily truckers and thus the ETC lanes were needed in the rightmost lanes.   Even today, it seems like most of the EZPass usage on the Turnpike is still truckers (but there are a significant number of cars with EZPass).  There are very few locations north of the Mossy exit (Exit 60) that could be widened sufficiently to handle two through EZPass traffic in the left lanes, one cash-only in the middle, plus at least two lanes of Cash/EZPass for truckers on the right side (both northbound and southbound).  Note that Mossy is less than 5 miles north of the Pax toll plaza.

Nowadays, all of the toll plazas on the Turnpike stay busy throughout much of the daylight hours and are a complete nightmare before/after Holidays.  But it is going to cost so much to properly solve all of those problems, it would seem more cost effective to eliminate the toll plazas altogether. 

ETC is heavily used by commuters because of the steep discount given to residents of the counties the Turnpike travels through. You can also get a tax deduction up to $1,200/year for tolls paid with EZ-Pass.

The last serious discussion about removing the tolls was in 2015-16, when the Legislature considered doing so after all bonds were paid. At the time, the state had difficulties balancing its budget because of declining revenues. Removing the tolls would result in a loss of $90 million in yearly revenue, of which 76% came from out-of-state drivers, equating to $68 million. Over 30 years, the state would lose $2.7 billion in expected revenue. There hasn't been any serious movement since then because of the expected fuel tax increase that would be needed to cover the shortfall in revenue.

Their financial statements do not divide EZ-Pass usage by class, but the Ohio Turnpike's statements show that 63% of passenger car motorists used EZ-Pass compared to a whopping 89% of commercial truck customers. It would not surprise me if that were the reason why EZ-Pass lanes were stacked on the right.

Cost estimates were outlined for toll plaza (A, B, and C) rebuilds, and they were pretty steep. The estimates didn't outline any specifics, but it did not appear that it would be all electronic. At a minimum, there needs to be high-speed lanes separated from manual collection. That would be easy to do with the two lower plazas, but the northernmost plaza is land constricted.

Quote from: seicer on March 15, 2024, 07:36:04 PM
Cost estimates were outlined for toll plaza (A, B, and C) rebuilds, and they were pretty steep. The estimates didn't outline any specifics, but it did not appear that it would be all electronic. At a minimum, there needs to be high-speed lanes separated from manual collection. That would be easy to do with the two lower plazas, but the northernmost plaza is land constricted.

Relocating the administration building could provide room for a couple more lanes at the Chelyan (northernmost) plaza. That being said, that plaza could easily be eliminated as it is not capturing a significant amount of revenue that doesn't already flow through the next (Pax) plaza. Bump up the tolls at the other plazas and the reduced administration/construction costs would make up from any lost revenue.

Quote from: Bitmapped on March 17, 2024, 11:54:08 AM

Quote from: seicer on March 15, 2024, 07:36:04 PM
Cost estimates were outlined for toll plaza (A, B, and C) rebuilds, and they were pretty steep. The estimates didn't outline any specifics, but it did not appear that it would be all electronic. At a minimum, there needs to be high-speed lanes separated from manual collection. That would be easy to do with the two lower plazas, but the northernmost plaza is land constricted.

Relocating the administration building could provide room for a couple more lanes at the Chelyan (northernmost) plaza. That being said, that plaza could easily be eliminated as it is not capturing a significant amount of revenue that doesn't already flow through the next (Pax) plaza. Bump up the tolls at the other plazas and the reduced administration/construction costs would make up from any lost revenue.

No one affected by increased tolls that don't use that plaza would be in favor of such.

What happened to the EZPASS logo?  (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10220097676432683&set=a.10220097830236528) (On I-77 SB south of CR 48)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53604758211_6ff56dd9f0_c.jpg)

Quote from: 74/171FAN on March 22, 2024, 09:34:03 PM
What happened to the EZPASS logo?  (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10220097676432683&set=a.10220097830236528) (On I-77 SB south of CR 48)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53604758211_6ff56dd9f0_c.jpg)

It's been that way for a while. Just like the logos that look hand drawn on DRPA bridges from NJ to PA

Quote from: Bitmapped on March 14, 2024, 12:22:23 PMRoads to Prosperity had two sets of bonds issued. General obligation bonds, permitted by a voter-passed constitutional amendment, were issued for projects all over the state including, inexplicably, the Beckley area widening on the Turnpike. A second set of bonds, backed solely by toll revenue on the Turnpike from increased tolls, is for projects in the 10-county area of the southern part of the state. Most of those projects are off-turnpike.

The "explanation" is to continue the legal fiction that somehow, the turnpike (the state) "owes" the DOH (the state) for something.  So thus the Beckley widening is done "by the DOH" and they continue the tolls for more decades.

As to the fiction that, somehow, they are using the toll money to help southern WV, the dirt flying on the ground says otherwise, just as it did following the same story back in 87. 

Quote from: Bitmapped on March 14, 2024, 12:22:23 PMincluding, inexplicably, the Beckley area widening on the Turnpike.

You keep saying this, but is it any more ridiculous than widening I-79 to 6 lanes around Clarksburg, or gasp... let's connect 2 dead/dying cities of Huntington and Charleston with a 6-lane highway. Columbus/Cincinnati and Pittsburgh/Cleveland are not connected with a 6-lane highway but Charleston and Huntington?!?

This just underscores the ineptness of the WVDOH. The Turnpike, which should be a state's marque highway is saddled with a toll collection system from 1978, yet they build 6-lane highways from nowhere to nowhere.

You need to forward your idea of nuking the Cheylean toll plaza to the Parkways authority. Excellent idea.

You might want to check your facts.  While the cities of Charleston and Huntington are in decline, Putnam County has more than doubled in population since I-64 was built.  I-64 was grossly over capacity and the six lane upgrade is badly needed.  The first upgrade, which extended six lanes from South Charleston to Nitro, ended a DAILY complete stop situation at rush hour and reduced accident levels.  The current section, from Nitro to Scott Depot, again, is a DAILY complete stop situation.  The six lane upgrade is badly needed.

As to the Turnpike being the state's "marque" highway, umm, why?  I-64 between Huntington and Charleston is the busiest road in the state by far.

Quote from: SP Cook on April 17, 2024, 09:17:11 AMYou might want to check your facts.  While the cities of Charleston and Huntington are in decline, Putnam County has more than doubled in population since I-64 was built.  I-64 was grossly over capacity and the six lane upgrade is badly needed.  The first upgrade, which extended six lanes from South Charleston to Nitro, ended a DAILY complete stop situation at rush hour and reduced accident levels.  The current section, from Nitro to Scott Depot, again, is a DAILY complete stop situation.  The six lane upgrade is badly needed.

As to the Turnpike being the state's "marque" highway, umm, why?  I-64 between Huntington and Charleston is the busiest road in the state by far.

To that end, just before WVDOH began any widening along I-64, the (then) fourlane section between Cross Lanes -and- Institute ranked in the national Top Ten for Peak VPHPL (vehicles per hour per lane).  (Not sure why this section was higher than the adjacent Institute -to- Dunbar). 

No wonder, as this section of I-64 carries a bunch of lower-case "interstate" regional routings (none of which are huge, but you get the point): 

• St. Louis/Louisville -to- Richmond/Tidewater
• St. Louis/Louisville -to- Charlotte Metrolina
• St. Louis/Louisville -to- Raleigh/Durham
• Cincinnati -to- all three of these destinations
• Detroit/Toledo/Columbus -to- all three of these destinations

Not to mention that both the Tri-Cities (Huntington/Ashland/Ironton) and Charleston/Kanawha Valley still have active industrial complexes that shove more than their fair share of truckers onto I-64.

Putnam County has under 60,000 people.  There are Interstates that pass communities with more people than that with only two lanes in each direction that do just fine...

I've noticed it really is a matter of perspective. Ohio has suburbs that have more people than Charleston yet people in New York City see the entire state of Ohio as insignificant. Like how everyone in West Virgina knows where Gilbert is even though it only has 500 people.

One of the main ideas behind metrics is to eliminate perspective and think in terms of cold hard numbers.

Quote from: Rothman on April 17, 2024, 06:25:22 PMPutnam County has under 60,000 people.  There are Interstates that pass communities with more people than that with only two lanes in each direction that do just fine...

That's nice for them.  Not the case here, where the three lane upgrade will end DAILY rush hour traffic halts. 

Quote from: Rothman on April 17, 2024, 06:25:22 PMPutnam County has under 60,000 people.  There are Interstates that pass communities with more people than that with only two lanes in each direction that do just fine...

Connecting to two of the state's most significant employment centers, Interstate 64 has only one real alternate route: two-lane US 60. One accident that closes the highway will cause complete gridlock on US 60. The only other alternate route is to drive up to WV 2, which is a good two-hour detour. Regardless, population figures don't matter when planning routes if the highway has a poor level of service, carries too much traffic for its design, or has steep grades that congest traffic and contribute to safety issues. The latter is a significant issue for Interstate 79 north of Clarksburg, where a lack of truck climbing lanes contributes to significant speed differentials. A cheaper alternative could be to add truck climbing lanes, but with the number of lanes that would be needed, an overall corridor upgrade could be more beneficial.

Interstate 64 between Charleston and Huntington varies between 72,000 and 31,000 AADT and generally consists of 13% and 20% trucks.

Interstate 77 around Parkersburg will be six lanes from Mineral Wells to US 50, with the underpowered US 50 interchange in the planning phases for reconstruction. Traffic counts are around 25,000 AADT, but there is heavy rush-hour traffic.

Interstate 79 between Anmoore and Morgantown will be six lanes, with significant portions widened between Clarksburg and Bridgeport and around Fairmont. The corridor is seeing significant commercial growth in Bridgeport near the FBI CJIS facility and at White Hall.

The West Virginia Turnpike around Beckley was also widened in recent years because the level of service was not great. Factor in US 19 and Interstate 64 dumping traffic onto the highway, multiple local interchanges, a service area, and numerous grades - it made for a lot of slow driving. It also has a high truck percentage rate. A case could be made to widen most of the Turnpike at this point to six lanes - it can be a slow drive (<55 MPH) for much of the route in the summer because of tourism. (And a point can be easily made for widening southward to Interstate 81. The route experiences very long backups at the tunnels and on the grades because of the high percentage of trucks that use the highway.)

You can't just look at Google Maps, see farm and forest land, and conclude that rural interstates don't deserve widening or improvement projects.

Quote from: seicer on April 18, 2024, 09:31:06 AM

Quote from: Rothman on April 17, 2024, 06:25:22 PMPutnam County has under 60,000 people.  There are Interstates that pass communities with more people than that with only two lanes in each direction that do just fine...

Connecting to two of the state's most significant employment centers, Interstate 64 has only one real alternate route: two-lane US 60. One accident that closes the highway will cause complete gridlock on US 60. The only other alternate route is to drive up to WV 2, which is a good two-hour detour. Regardless, population figures don't matter when planning routes if the highway has a poor level of service, carries too much traffic for its design, or has steep grades that congest traffic and contribute to safety issues. The latter is a significant issue for Interstate 79 north of Clarksburg, where a lack of truck climbing lanes contributes to significant speed differentials. A cheaper alternative could be to add truck climbing lanes, but with the number of lanes that would be needed, an overall corridor upgrade could be more beneficial.

Interstate 64 between Charleston and Huntington varies between 72,000 and 31,000 AADT and generally consists of 13% and 20% trucks.

Interstate 77 around Parkersburg will be six lanes from Mineral Wells to US 50, with the underpowered US 50 interchange in the planning phases for reconstruction. Traffic counts are around 25,000 AADT, but there is heavy rush-hour traffic.

Interstate 79 between Anmoore and Morgantown will be six lanes, with significant portions widened between Clarksburg and Bridgeport and around Fairmont. The corridor is seeing significant commercial growth in Bridgeport near the FBI CJIS facility and at White Hall.

The West Virginia Turnpike around Beckley was also widened in recent years because the level of service was not great. Factor in US 19 and Interstate 64 dumping traffic onto the highway, multiple local interchanges, a service area, and numerous grades - it made for a lot of slow driving. It also has a high truck percentage rate. A case could be made to widen most of the Turnpike at this point to six lanes - it can be a slow drive (<55 MPH) for much of the route in the summer because of tourism. (And a point can be easily made for widening southward to Interstate 81. The route experiences very long backups at the tunnels and on the grades because of the high percentage of trucks that use the highway.)

You can't just look at Google Maps, see farm and forest land, and conclude that rural interstates don't deserve widening or improvement projects.

Could also use climbing lanes on I-79 NB between Morgantown and the PA line.  There is a climb up to the SB welcome center and then it is downhill to the PA line.

It should be noted that some of these reconstruction projects have different funding sources. The Turnpike widening around Beckley, the Interstate 64 widening projects around Barboursville and Nitro-St. Albans and the Interstate 79 widening project in Fairmont were funded through the $2.8 billion Roads to Prosperity highway construction and maintenance program. The Interstate 64 and 79 projects involve rebuilding 60+ year-old roadway bases and correcting long-standing drainage issues, including significant bridge replacement projects (I've covered this for Bridges & Tunnels (http://bridgestunnels.com/)). Earlier projects were more piecemeal and shorter in length and were not part of the Roads to Prosperity bonds. I disagree with Governor Justice on many topics, but the bond program has kickstarted long-proposed and delayed widening and reconstruction projects.

Those who have disagreed with how West Virginia is tackling its highway infrastructure come from other states. If your state has four-lane corridors carrying 60,000 AADT, you should ask what it is doing with its funding and why it doesn't have senators and house representatives bringing home the dollars.

Quote from: Bitmapped on March 14, 2024, 12:22:23 PMRoads to Prosperity had two sets of bonds issued. General obligation bonds, permitted by a voter-passed constitutional amendment, were issued for projects all over the state including, inexplicably, the Beckley area widening on the Turnpike. A second set of bonds, backed solely by toll revenue on the Turnpike from increased tolls, is for projects in the 10-county area of the southern part of the state. Most of those projects are off-turnpike.

Quote from: Black-Man on April 16, 2024, 10:45:32 PM

Quote from: Bitmapped on March 14, 2024, 12:22:23 PMincluding, inexplicably, the Beckley area widening on the Turnpike.

You keep saying this, but is it any more ridiculous than widening I-79 to 6 lanes around Clarksburg, or gasp... let's connect 2 dead/dying cities of Huntington and Charleston with a 6-lane highway. Columbus/Cincinnati and Pittsburgh/Cleveland are not connected with a 6-lane highway but Charleston and Huntington?!?

Quote from: seicer on April 18, 2024, 09:31:06 AMThe West Virginia Turnpike around Beckley was also widened in recent years because the level of service was not great. Factor in US 19 and Interstate 64 dumping traffic onto the highway, multiple local interchanges, a service area, and numerous grades - it made for a lot of slow driving. It also has a high truck percentage rate. A case could be made to widen most of the Turnpike at this point to six lanes - it can be a slow drive (<55 MPH) for much of the route in the summer because of tourism. (And a point can be easily made for widening southward to Interstate 81. The route experiences very long backups at the tunnels and on the grades because of the high percentage of trucks that use the highway.)

Back to the original argument, Bitmapped was making a comment that a State-funded Roads-to-Prosperity Program funded a widening project on the West Virginia Turnpike that (coulda-woulda-shoulda) been funded by the Parkways Authority (ergo, the Turnpike Authority).  The rest of the discussion should be a political one (that may not be inappropriate on this Forum, as it is related to how the citizenry of a particular state has a penchant for funding highway infrastructure projects, if they can't get their Congressional forces to bring in an earmark).

Quote from: seicer on April 18, 2024, 09:31:06 AM

Quote from: Rothman on April 17, 2024, 06:25:22 PMPutnam County has under 60,000 people.  There are Interstates that pass communities with more people than that with only two lanes in each direction that do just fine...

Connecting to two of the state's most significant employment centers, Interstate 64 has only one real alternate route: two-lane US 60. One accident that closes the highway will cause complete gridlock on US 60. The only other alternate route is to drive up to WV 2, which is a good two-hour detour. Regardless, population figures don't matter when planning routes if the highway has a poor level of service, carries too much traffic for its design, or has steep grades that congest traffic and contribute to safety issues. The latter is a significant issue for Interstate 79 north of Clarksburg, where a lack of truck climbing lanes contributes to significant speed differentials. A cheaper alternative could be to add truck climbing lanes, but with the number of lanes that would be needed, an overall corridor upgrade could be more beneficial.

Interstate 64 between Charleston and Huntington varies between 72,000 and 31,000 AADT and generally consists of 13% and 20% trucks.

Interstate 77 around Parkersburg will be six lanes from Mineral Wells to US 50, with the underpowered US 50 interchange in the planning phases for reconstruction. Traffic counts are around 25,000 AADT, but there is heavy rush-hour traffic.

Interstate 79 between Anmoore and Morgantown will be six lanes, with significant portions widened between Clarksburg and Bridgeport and around Fairmont. The corridor is seeing significant commercial growth in Bridgeport near the FBI CJIS facility and at White Hall.

The West Virginia Turnpike around Beckley was also widened in recent years because the level of service was not great. Factor in US 19 and Interstate 64 dumping traffic onto the highway, multiple local interchanges, a service area, and numerous grades - it made for a lot of slow driving. It also has a high truck percentage rate. A case could be made to widen most of the Turnpike at this point to six lanes - it can be a slow drive (<55 MPH) for much of the route in the summer because of tourism. (And a point can be easily made for widening southward to Interstate 81. The route experiences very long backups at the tunnels and on the grades because of the high percentage of trucks that use the highway.)

You can't just look at Google Maps, see farm and forest land, and conclude that rural interstates don't deserve widening or improvement projects.

Speaking of Google Maps, it appears that there's contiguous development along I-64 between the Huntington and Charleston, much of it within a couple miles of I-64 on a narrow strip.  Such a development pattern and lack of other east-west routes (besides US 60) could explain why this area would punch above its weight class in terms of congestion.  That said, this congestion isn't showing on the Google Maps traffic layer - toggling on "typical traffic", nearly all of it shows as green every day through rush hour.  To the extent that there are issues, they seem to be mainly approaching the Kanawha River.  Now, I know green doesn't mean as comfortable as us roadgeeks would like, or even going the speed limit necessarily, but it's hardly the complete stop situation described by SP Cook.

Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 18, 2024, 12:15:16 PM

Quote from: Bitmapped on March 14, 2024, 12:22:23 PMRoads to Prosperity had two sets of bonds issued. General obligation bonds, permitted by a voter-passed constitutional amendment, were issued for projects all over the state including, inexplicably, the Beckley area widening on the Turnpike. A second set of bonds, backed solely by toll revenue on the Turnpike from increased tolls, is for projects in the 10-county area of the southern part of the state. Most of those projects are off-turnpike.

Quote from: Black-Man on April 16, 2024, 10:45:32 PM

Quote from: Bitmapped on March 14, 2024, 12:22:23 PMincluding, inexplicably, the Beckley area widening on the Turnpike.

You keep saying this, but is it any more ridiculous than widening I-79 to 6 lanes around Clarksburg, or gasp... let's connect 2 dead/dying cities of Huntington and Charleston with a 6-lane highway. Columbus/Cincinnati and Pittsburgh/Cleveland are not connected with a 6-lane highway but Charleston and Huntington?!?

Quote from: seicer on April 18, 2024, 09:31:06 AMThe West Virginia Turnpike around Beckley was also widened in recent years because the level of service was not great. Factor in US 19 and Interstate 64 dumping traffic onto the highway, multiple local interchanges, a service area, and numerous grades - it made for a lot of slow driving. It also has a high truck percentage rate. A case could be made to widen most of the Turnpike at this point to six lanes - it can be a slow drive (<55 MPH) for much of the route in the summer because of tourism. (And a point can be easily made for widening southward to Interstate 81. The route experiences very long backups at the tunnels and on the grades because of the high percentage of trucks that use the highway.)

Back to the original argument, Bitmapped was making a comment that a State-funded Roads-to-Prosperity Program funded a widening project on the West Virginia Turnpike that (coulda-woulda-shoulda) been funded by the Parkways Authority (ergo, the Turnpike Authority).  The rest of the discussion should be a political one (that may not be inappropriate on this Forum, as it is related to how the citizenry of a particular state has a penchant for funding highway infrastructure projects, if they can't get their Congressional forces to bring in an earmark).

The Turnpike widening around Beckley was a Roads to Prosperity project. But the rest of the discussion borders politics but is related as that's how a lot of projects come to fruition. It's why you see the "Robert C. Byrd Appalachian Highway System" signage in the state and not elsewhere - Senator Byrd was responsible for bringing home the dollars to complete much of the ADHS corridors in West Virginia over his decades-long tenure.

Quote from: vdeane on April 18, 2024, 12:44:04 PM

Quote from: seicer on April 18, 2024, 09:31:06 AM

Quote from: Rothman on April 17, 2024, 06:25:22 PMPutnam County has under 60,000 people.  There are Interstates that pass communities with more people than that with only two lanes in each direction that do just fine...

Connecting to two of the state's most significant employment centers, Interstate 64 has only one real alternate route: two-lane US 60. One accident that closes the highway will cause complete gridlock on US 60. The only other alternate route is to drive up to WV 2, which is a good two-hour detour. Regardless, population figures don't matter when planning routes if the highway has a poor level of service, carries too much traffic for its design, or has steep grades that congest traffic and contribute to safety issues. The latter is a significant issue for Interstate 79 north of Clarksburg, where a lack of truck climbing lanes contributes to significant speed differentials. A cheaper alternative could be to add truck climbing lanes, but with the number of lanes that would be needed, an overall corridor upgrade could be more beneficial.

Interstate 64 between Charleston and Huntington varies between 72,000 and 31,000 AADT and generally consists of 13% and 20% trucks.

Interstate 77 around Parkersburg will be six lanes from Mineral Wells to US 50, with the underpowered US 50 interchange in the planning phases for reconstruction. Traffic counts are around 25,000 AADT, but there is heavy rush-hour traffic.

Interstate 79 between Anmoore and Morgantown will be six lanes, with significant portions widened between Clarksburg and Bridgeport and around Fairmont. The corridor is seeing significant commercial growth in Bridgeport near the FBI CJIS facility and at White Hall.

The West Virginia Turnpike around Beckley was also widened in recent years because the level of service was not great. Factor in US 19 and Interstate 64 dumping traffic onto the highway, multiple local interchanges, a service area, and numerous grades - it made for a lot of slow driving. It also has a high truck percentage rate. A case could be made to widen most of the Turnpike at this point to six lanes - it can be a slow drive (<55 MPH) for much of the route in the summer because of tourism. (And a point can be easily made for widening southward to Interstate 81. The route experiences very long backups at the tunnels and on the grades because of the high percentage of trucks that use the highway.)

You can't just look at Google Maps, see farm and forest land, and conclude that rural interstates don't deserve widening or improvement projects.

Speaking of Google Maps, it appears that there's contiguous development along I-64 between the Huntington and Charleston, much of it within a couple miles of I-64 on a narrow strip.  Such a development pattern and lack of other east-west routes (besides US 60) could explain why this area would punch above its weight class in terms of congestion.  That said, this congestion isn't showing on the Google Maps traffic layer - toggling on "typical traffic", nearly all of it shows as green every day through rush hour.  To the extent that there are issues, they seem to be mainly approaching the Kanawha River.  Now, I know green doesn't mean as comfortable as us roadgeeks would like, or even going the speed limit necessarily, but it's hardly the complete stop situation described by SP Cook.

I think SP Cook lives in the metro valley, and I live adjacent to it. But I've been on it enough to know that one accident causes traffic to be shunted to a two-lane road too many times. The problem is that it's a singular highway that carries the burden of through traffic for an entire valley. It's also an issue with the Turnpike as the detour involves steep, winding grades that become complete bottlenecks that RVs and large trucks have issues negotiating. In general, the state has a lack of alternative routes - it's not easy to just add parallel roads to provide relief or to widen existing roads.

And while the two cities on each end have declined in population, they are still just as important - it's just that people now live in outlying areas and commute.

I've been hung up in stopped traffic westbound on I-64 between Dunbar/Institute and Teays Valley/Hurricane many, many times. The current construction situation at the westernmost Kanawha River crossing (between the Nitro and St. Albans exits) is messy, but hopefully once it's done, things will improve.

Yeah, construction and crashes are each in and of themselves able to bring roads to a halt.  That's fairly universal - I don't think many DOTs plan their road widening around "the road will still flow freely if we close a lane for whatever reason".

Heck, I dealt with that just yesterday - a crash shut down a lane on I-87 north at the Twin Bridges and cascaded into stop and go traffic all the way down to I-90 along both I-87 and all alternate routes.  What was normally a 10 minute trip from work to the grocery store took half an hour (and I couldn't go straight home, which would have worked fine since my main alternate is entirely diagonal east-west roads that are useless for getting north of the Hudson, because it was go grocery shopping or starve).  NY isn't racing to widen it, even with something like this (granted, this was an unusually severe example - normally US 9 at least moves, and normally the backup doesn't cascade from exit 5 to exit 2 in the time it takes me to walk from my computer to the car) happening once or twice a month.

Quote from: vdeane on April 18, 2024, 09:30:10 PMYeah, construction and crashes are each in and of themselves able to bring roads to a halt.  That's fairly universal - I don't think many DOTs plan their road widening around "the road will still flow freely if we close a lane for whatever reason".

Heck, I dealt with that just yesterday - a crash shut down a lane on I-87 north at the Twin Bridges and cascaded into stop and go traffic all the way down to I-90 along both I-87 and all alternate routes.  What was normally a 10 minute trip from work to the grocery store took half an hour (and I couldn't go straight home, which would have worked fine since my main alternate is entirely diagonal east-west roads that are useless for getting north of the Hudson, because it was go grocery shopping or starve).  NY isn't racing to widen it, even with something like this (granted, this was an unusually severe example - normally US 9 at least moves, and normally the backup doesn't cascade from exit 5 to exit 2 in the time it takes me to walk from my computer to the car) happening once or twice a month.

^This.

I mean, I-91 in MA carries 50,000 AADT in the vicinity of Northampton and Amherst (larger population combined than Putnam County and closer to a much larger metro area to its south than dinky Charleston and dinkier Huntington) and only has one parallel route (US 5/MA 10).  Four lanes.  And sure, incidents cause issues everywhere.

And I've been traveling the I-79/I-64 corridor between Morgantown and Huntington pretty darned frequently for decades.  Sure, there's some traffic on I-64 between Charleston and Huntington.  Ooooooo.

I can't really count how many daily full stoppages there are in Columbus and Cincinnati. It's a lot. Columbus even gets bad on weekends -- especially during football season. Not just before and after the game but on Sundays too since people have to push all their errands back to that day.

Would it be such a bad idea to mothball the Cheylan Toll Barrier altogether and split that toll between the remaining barriers either side of Beckley?

For one reason, it's an easy and quick way to shunpike it for most, and most locals are already not paying to ride that particular stretch anyways.

And for those who purchase the annual transponder plan which allows unlimited rides, a 3rd barrier is a moot point anyway.

Plus most Turnpike non-local traffic passes thru Beckley whether they come in from US-19, I-64 or from either end of I-77. So everyone would hit at least one toll barrier regardless.

Quote from: thenetwork on April 19, 2024, 05:32:01 PMPlus most Turnpike non-local traffic passes thru Beckley whether they come in from US-19, I-68 or from either end of I-77. So everyone would hit at least one toll barrier regardless.

That's likely why Beckley got the big service plaza and the other two are smaller. Going all the way back to when you could access all three plazas from both directions.

Quote from: GCrites on April 19, 2024, 08:21:34 PM

Quote from: thenetwork on April 19, 2024, 05:32:01 PMPlus most Turnpike non-local traffic passes thru Beckley whether they come in from US-19, I-68 or from either end of I-77. So everyone would hit at least one toll barrier regardless.

That's likely why Beckley got the big service plaza and the other two are smaller. Going all the way back to when you could access all three plazas from both directions.

Terrain might have played the biggest role at Morton. As far as Bluestone is concerned, not sure. Costs may have been a factor also, at both.

The Beckley plaza has Tamarack nearby, so that may have been a factor of connecting both directions to it.

Yeah they re-connected the northbound lanes to Beckley/"Scamarack" a couple years before Scamarack was built. I think it was some time in the '70s that northbound access to Beckley was removed. One time I was on vacation with my folks when I was really little and my folks wanted to get gas there but were like, "Huh, you're not allowed to do that anymore."

Quote from: thenetwork on April 19, 2024, 05:32:01 PMWould it be such a bad idea to mothball the Cheylan Toll Barrier altogether and split that toll between the remaining barriers either side of Beckley?

For one reason, it's an easy and quick way to shunpike it for most, and most locals are already not paying to ride that particular stretch anyways.

And for those who purchase the annual transponder plan which allows unlimited rides, a 3rd barrier is a moot point anyway.

Plus most Turnpike non-local traffic passes thru Beckley whether they come in from US-19, I-64 or from either end of I-77. So everyone would hit at least one toll barrier regardless.

Years ago, our family's preferred route to the New River Gorge Bridge from the west was to get off the turnpike at the WV 612 exit at Mossy and go to Oak Hill and intercept US 19 there.  Others who go that route to the bridge area would be the ones paying no tolls if the Chelyan toll plaza were eliminated, as the Pax toll plaza is south of WV 612.

Quote from: wriddle082 on April 20, 2024, 12:07:48 PM

Quote from: thenetwork on April 19, 2024, 05:32:01 PMWould it be such a bad idea to mothball the Cheylan Toll Barrier altogether and split that toll between the remaining barriers either side of Beckley?

For one reason, it's an easy and quick way to shunpike it for most, and most locals are already not paying to ride that particular stretch anyways.

And for those who purchase the annual transponder plan which allows unlimited rides, a 3rd barrier is a moot point anyway.

Plus most Turnpike non-local traffic passes thru Beckley whether they come in from US-19, I-64 or from either end of I-77. So everyone would hit at least one toll barrier regardless.

Years ago, our family's preferred route to the New River Gorge Bridge from the west was to get off the turnpike at the WV 612 exit at Mossy and go to Oak Hill and intercept US 19 there.  Others who go that route to the bridge area would be the ones paying no tolls if the Chelyan toll plaza were eliminated, as the Pax toll plaza is south of WV 612.

In 2022, the AADT for the southbound exit ramp was 1249 and the northbound exit ramp was 1049. There would be some toll leakage if the Chelyan plaza was eliminated, but I suspect that a high percentage of vehicles already have the unlimited use E-ZPass plan so the financial impact of eliminating the ramp would be somewhat muted. I suppose they could do ramp tolling at the WV 612 interchange if the toll loss was going to be too much.