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Author Topic: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA  (Read 25923 times)

triplemultiplex

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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2018, 10:14:16 AM »

2029?  And they've already cleared out all that r/w?
Panning around on aerials, looks like 100+ homes have been leveled in the N Spoke Corridor and along I-90.  Turning back the clock, it looks like they've been buying and clearing properties for a decade already.
I appreciate planning ahead, but jeez, that's a long time for urban land to sit vacant.
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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2018, 04:09:50 PM »

2029 is only 11 years away. Some road projects have lingered for far longer before they were finally built.
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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2018, 08:05:44 PM »

2029?  And they've already cleared out all that r/w?
Panning around on aerials, looks like 100+ homes have been leveled in the N Spoke Corridor and along I-90.  Turning back the clock, it looks like they've been buying and clearing properties for a decade already.
I appreciate planning ahead, but jeez, that's a long time for urban land to sit vacant.

I can't speak for Washington, but in Oregon the McMinnville Bypass had ROW set aside to widen it to 4 lanes in the future. They even left space for expansion beneath the overpasses. This was back in 1959 -- and it's still mostly 2 lanes to this day.
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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2018, 09:46:22 PM »

Thatís a piss poor excuse just because other projects have taken ridiculous amounts of time to happen. Whatever the reason is, 11 years away is a very long time and is insane.
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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2018, 09:56:29 PM »

Thatís a piss poor excuse just because other projects have taken ridiculous amounts of time to happen. Whatever the reason is, 11 years away is a very long time and is insane.
Although I agree, at least the have a timeline *cough cough* Newberg-Dundee Bypass *cough cough*
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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2018, 06:26:24 PM »

Building a new freeway in an existing urban area, in the 21st century, is going to be difficult no matter how much money you throw at it. Best thing to do is to not plan around it and maybe the project will become entirely unnecessary in a few decades, with improved traffic control systems, higher transit patronage, and the world-saving self-driving vehicle.

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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2018, 05:35:13 PM »

Thatís a piss poor excuse just because other projects have taken ridiculous amounts of time to happen. Whatever the reason is, 11 years away is a very long time and is insane.

I think it has to do with funding availability.

Building a new freeway in an existing urban area, in the 21st century, is going to be difficult no matter how much money you throw at it. Best thing to do is to not plan around it and maybe the project will become entirely unnecessary in a few decades, with improved traffic control systems, higher transit patronage, and the world-saving self-driving vehicle.

I highly doubt it will become unnecessary to build this freeway. I think more people will want freeways when self driving cars become a thing. After all, they will allow for higher capacities on freeways, so that traffic will still be moving at speeds faster than on surface streets during rush hour. This will be awesome.  :D  But freeways will still be difficult to get built because of NIMBYs.  :-/

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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2018, 08:54:53 PM »

The vast majority of any "future" freeways will be depressed and or cut and cover replacements of pre-existing elevated or at grade facilities.   The political difficulties of all new routes in urban settings are extreme. 
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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2018, 01:45:08 AM »

I believe the completion has been delayed due to a soil contamination issue south of Wellesley Street. WashDOT is working with BSNF to get the area cleaned up.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/US395/NorthSpokaneCorridor/NscBlackTank.htm

The Connecting Washington budget from two summers ago funded the completion of the corridor. Money is not an issue.



But freeways will still be difficult to get built because of NIMBYs.  :-/

It's not just NIMBYs. It's also those who are in the path of the freeway, who are displaced as a result.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 01:47:55 AM by jakeroot »
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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2018, 10:21:30 PM »

Quote from: DJStephens
The vast majority of any "future" freeways will be depressed and or cut and cover replacements of pre-existing elevated or at grade facilities. The political difficulties of all new routes in urban settings are extreme.

That's certainly true right now, but things can change.

Apologies in advance for the long post. More often than not these stridently anti-freeway, new urbanist places also carry very high living costs and soaring inflation rates on those living costs. They preach "sustainability," but ignore the money math of their Utopian vision and what it means to any working stiff in the city who isn't rich.

Between now and the year 2030 this nation could go through quite a lot of economic turmoil. Online merchants currently control 11% of all retail; that number could be 18% by 2022. Retail is but one part of overall digital disruption. Manufacturing lines are increasingly automated. Price Waterhouse Coopers published a report saying as many as 45% of current jobs could be automated through various means, like rapidly improving AI technology. Big companies could save a fortune in wages, but how would the national economy handle the loss of so many millions of jobs? And then there's the wild card of our nation's declining birth rate, hitting new all time lows. That could be bad if the trend is extended over a decade or more. America's economy and even its demographics are increasingly out of balance. That's not exactly good "bedrock" on which New Urbanists can build out their dream vision.

Our nation will adapt to changes that take place in the years and decades ahead. How it adapts won't be very predictable or pain free. There's no telling what will happen for certain. But these high priced urban areas with hyper-inflated real estate costs could see a big come-down. That could change a lot of things, including how people feel about roads, light rail, etc. Maybe new freeways in urban areas could still be capped and covered with parks, green space, etc. Still, something has to be done about that cost inflation on these projects.

I think self-driving vehicles will actually create a boom, not just in street and highway construction, but also innovations in parking lots/garages, hotel designs and more. The personal computing revolution got America's economy out of a funk in the early 1980's. A revolution in automobile technology could do the same in the 2020's.

As for the North Spokane Corridor, it's odds for completion are better than some others. Substantial progress has already been made. Its next 3 miles of ROW extending South are fairly clear of buildings. A bunch of property near the future I-90 interchange has been cleared. It's just that last 1.5 miles South of the river that have to be spanned.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 10:36:13 PM by Bobby5280 »
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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2018, 08:42:14 PM »

Have to say agree with most of what you've said.  Have seen wealthy ex-Californians move here (New Mexico) and work to mold this area to what they left.   They tend to vote in a bloc and have voting participation of 80 - 90 %, so they are getting what they want.  Road diets, regressive planning and design, over densification of land use, bizarre growth patterns and structures, etc.   
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 06:31:07 PM by DJStephens »
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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2018, 02:51:26 PM »

I was watching a presentation a couple weeks ago given by Jim Kuntsler.  He thinks that many of the technologies that the sustainable urbanism people think will save us won't pan out, and that this combined with economic trends will cause a collapse of not only suburbia but also large and medium-sized cities as well.  He was saying that we may go back to a more 19th-century style lifestyle, with our current transportation system, particularly trucking, collapsing for long-haul movement, with society re-centered around small cities (think Saratoga Springs or Troy small) along waterways and railroads.  His books are available on Amazon and elsewhere for anyone interested in reading more.  Certainly could affect things like freeway development in the future if his predictions come to pass.
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DJStephens

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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2018, 06:21:41 PM »

So if trucking collapsed, what would replace it?  Horse drawn canal boats and steam engined trains??  The trend seems to be of an ever greater segmentation of consumer "choice" - with an ever greater amount of imported widgets to consume.  Meaning more and more trucks on the road.    Do have to say like what you quoted, being the future being a return to simpler less consumptive times.     
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 06:26:40 PM by DJStephens »
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2018, 08:57:22 PM »

I donít think that will happen. Some how some way weíll find a way to continue on with materialistic obsessions and over consumption. Iím that way and Iíll admit it. No shame in my game. But thatís just a disclaimer. When I sit back and look, we have ways found a way to move forward. Sometimes we might take a step back or two but we always move forward. The only thing I see causing something like that is nuclear winter or a catastrophic natural event such as Yellowstone erupting or and asteroid colliding with the planet. Then we might have problems. Real problems. Global warming or issues like how to fund infrastructure and lifestyles, those are really nothing serious and happen very slowly. Theyíre problems, but manageable ones.

At 24 years old, thatís my take on that issue. People just need to relax and lay back on the knee jerk reactions so many have today.
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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2018, 04:31:12 PM »

There are growing trends of younger generations spending more of their money on experiences (dining out, concerts, vacations & other fun stuff) and not as much on tangible goods that take up room in one's living space. If you're in a living situation where you're in some small apartment, possibly with one or more roomates you'll have only so much room for "stuff."

However, I do not see cities and suburbs collapsing anytime soon.

If anything, I expect small rural towns to continue shrinking and dying off. There is no sign that big numbers of young people want to move out to the sticks, even if they can live on the cheap there. Good opportunity is limited in little towns and so are social prospects (like finding girlfriends or a wife). Rising costs of health care, hospice care and health insurance will force more aging Americans into cities of at least some substantial size (where such services are much closer). Most small towns have declining tax bases. They're finding it increasingly difficult to maintain local infrastructure and fund basic services (police, fire dept, garbage removal, etc). Companies providing mobile phone service and broadband Internet service aren't going to serve little towns with the latest technologies -at least not without a giant amount of government funding. So that's another advantage for cities. If the declining birth rate in the US turns into a long term trend it will affect many things. Enrollment levels in public schools will drop; small school districts will have a tough time justifying their existence. Population decline could cause housing prices to drop in many places. That'll be great if you're looking for a place to buy/rent. It'll be lousy if you already own your property.
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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2018, 08:30:44 PM »

One thing that's worth noting is that Kuntsler believes that fossil fuels will eventually run out and/or become too expensive to extract and that no technology will emerge to provide an adequate replacement.  In short, the energy to run the global economy as we know it simply won't be there.  Cities, alas, can't sustain themselves on local, low-energy traditional non-mechanized farming.
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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2019, 01:48:43 AM »

Another mile paved, but not open to traffic because there's no exit. But that was enough work for WSDOT to hold a ribbon-cutting party.

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/sep/27/with-another-section-of-the-north-spokane-corridor/

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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2019, 06:51:24 PM »

Another mile paved, but not open to traffic because there's no exit. But that was enough work for WSDOT to hold a ribbon-cutting party.

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/sep/27/with-another-section-of-the-north-spokane-corridor/
Looks like they paved it so they could sit on nice flat ground under that bridge.

On a related note, is it too early to switch all the proposal tags for the south end of the NSC to construction tags in OpenStreetMap? (Proposal tags don't show up for regular viewers; construction tags do.)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 08:29:58 PM by X99 »
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BloonsTDFan360

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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2019, 11:20:26 PM »

On a related note, is it too early to switch all the proposal tags for the south end of the NSC to construction tags in OpenStreetMap? (Proposal tags don't show up for regular viewers; construction tags do.)
Construction tags should only be used if actual construction is going on. Otherwise, keep it at proposed.

From the looks of it, the NSC is tagged correctly.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 02:25:05 AM by BloonsTDFan360 »
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Stephane Dumas

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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2019, 08:17:00 AM »

I was watching a presentation a couple weeks ago given by Jim Kuntsler.  He thinks that many of the technologies that the sustainable urbanism people think will save us won't pan out, and that this combined with economic trends will cause a collapse of not only suburbia but also large and medium-sized cities as well.  He was saying that we may go back to a more 19th-century style lifestyle, with our current transportation system, particularly trucking, collapsing for long-haul movement, with society re-centered around small cities (think Saratoga Springs or Troy small) along waterways and railroads.  His books are available on Amazon and elsewhere for anyone interested in reading more.  Certainly could affect things like freeway development in the future if his predictions come to pass.

That reminds me of a thread on Skyscraperpage forums about poverty moving from the cities to the suburbs. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=240503
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jakeroot

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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2019, 05:40:12 PM »

That reminds me of a thread on Skyscraperpage forums about poverty moving from the cities to the suburbs. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=240503

Not just a thread. Fairly well-documented situation at this point.

What's particularly worrying to many, is how many seniors live in suburban housing (having moved there in the 50s-80s). This leaves them very isolated and prone to injury, plus it forces their kids to drive all the way out to wherever they are, to take care of them.
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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2019, 06:28:56 PM »

That reminds me of a thread on Skyscraperpage forums about poverty moving from the cities to the suburbs. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=240503

Not just a thread. Fairly well-documented situation at this point.

What's particularly worrying to many, is how many seniors live in suburban housing (having moved there in the 50s-80s). This leaves them very isolated and prone to injury, plus it forces their kids to drive all the way out to wherever they are, to take care of them.
whats also becoming more and more documented is their kids are moving back to the suburbs.
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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2019, 06:54:35 PM »

That reminds me of a thread on Skyscraperpage forums about poverty moving from the cities to the suburbs. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=240503

Not just a thread. Fairly well-documented situation at this point.

What's particularly worrying to many, is how many seniors live in suburban housing (having moved there in the 50s-80s). This leaves them very isolated and prone to injury, plus it forces their kids to drive all the way out to wherever they are, to take care of them.

With lifespans growing (for most US demographics) -- and the fact that a large number of these folks moved to the 'burbs in the pre-'73 years when gas was under a half-buck/gallon (and a 3-bedroom house outside coastal areas could be gotten for about $35-40K or less) -- the number of seniors "stuck" in the outlying areas will only increase.  If their residence is fully paid and amortized, fixed-income folks have little incentive to move to denser areas despite the relative lack of amenities, including health care, since housing near city cores (even in "secondary" cities such as Reno, Boise, and Spokane) is priced to reflect the proximity of amenities.   I suppose seniors (and technically I'm one of them!) in outlying areas would need to regularly assess their living and health situations and make provisions to accommodate their particular requirements while avoiding things that place them at risk as much as is feasible.  Even though I live in a dense area (and with a RN), those are considerations undertaken on a regular basis (she does nag me about lifting heavy objects, which I must occasionally do as part of my business, because I have a problematic knee: displaced cartilage, courtesy of a sports accident in my youth).   But I'm one of the lucky ones -- about to turn 70 with a decent portion of my health intact.   And I have no illusions about being taken care of by my offspring -- my only child, my daughter, lives in the West Village (NYC) and has never owned a car in her life!   

Bottom line -- there's not a lot that can be done about the distribution of the senior population -- and the general population of the suburbs largely mirrors that situation -- often the consideration of relocating to a denser area is thwarted by not only the prospect of trading space for convenience and/or safety, but also the likelihood that it might not be as simple as that equation -- the differences are arguably not linear in nature, with the more desirable neighborhoods affected in terms of price by ongoing gentrification -- so even finding anything affordable becomes a quixotic quest.  At this point, a real & viable solution has yet to emerge.       
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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2019, 07:48:55 PM »

whats also becoming more and more documented is their kids are moving back to the suburbs.

The argument isn't so much that people aren't moving to suburbs, but more that those over 65 are increasing their share of the total populace in the suburbs (and rural areas). Urban areas are getting older as well, but not at the same rate as suburban and rural areas[1]. It's not a massive difference, but it's growing.

The main thing to keep in mind, is that it's easier to be more dependent on your community in more tightly-packed areas (even trailer parks satisfy this need). You see more people on a regular basis; assuming you aren't a total hermit, you may get to know some of these people, and they can give you hand every now and then. Things like a ride to the doctor, or help crossing the street; help with groceries, etc. This is where suburban living gets more difficult for older generations. Such things may seem foreign to suburbanites who are used to uber-private lifestyles, but it's not unusual in urban areas, where getting help from strangers is fairly commonplace. I live across from a retirement home (bad idea if you hate sirens!), and regularly help the seniors across the street (no marked crossings so they're quite cautious).

With lifespans growing (for most US demographics) -- and the fact that a large number of these folks moved to the 'burbs in the pre-'73 years when gas was under a half-buck/gallon (and a 3-bedroom house outside coastal areas could be gotten for about $35-40K or less) -- the number of seniors "stuck" in the outlying areas will only increase.  If their residence is fully paid and amortized, fixed-income folks have little incentive to move to denser areas despite the relative lack of amenities, including health care, since housing near city cores (even in "secondary" cities such as Reno, Boise, and Spokane) is priced to reflect the proximity of amenities.   I suppose seniors (and technically I'm one of them!) in outlying areas would need to regularly assess their living and health situations and make provisions to accommodate their particular requirements while avoiding things that place them at risk as much as is feasible.  Even though I live in a dense area (and with a RN), those are considerations undertaken on a regular basis (she does nag me about lifting heavy objects, which I must occasionally do as part of my business, because I have a problematic knee: displaced cartilage, courtesy of a sports accident in my youth).   But I'm one of the lucky ones -- about to turn 70 with a decent portion of my health intact.   And I have no illusions about being taken care of by my offspring -- my only child, my daughter, lives in the West Village (NYC) and has never owned a car in her life!   

Bottom line -- there's not a lot that can be done about the distribution of the senior population -- and the general population of the suburbs largely mirrors that situation -- often the consideration of relocating to a denser area is thwarted by not only the prospect of trading space for convenience and/or safety, but also the likelihood that it might not be as simple as that equation -- the differences are arguably not linear in nature, with the more desirable neighborhoods affected in terms of price by ongoing gentrification -- so even finding anything affordable becomes a quixotic quest.  At this point, a real & viable solution has yet to emerge.       

No doubt that moving to more urban areas can be expensive. But that's why you have urban planners doing their best to ensure that we build more densely in the first place, and work with subsidized housing organizations to maintain a supply of well-built affordable housing close to public transit and other places that can be accessed on foot (especially helpful for older people who may not be able to afford a car, or who may be blind and unable to drive). This is happening somewhat successfully in some cities (Tacoma), but not as much in some others (San Francisco, from what I can tell). But a lot of west-coast cities have also seen massive population booms over the last twenty years or longer, which has been leapfrogging the pace of development.

My grandparents are both in their late 70s; one turns 80 in two weeks. Both are doing fairly well, but have given up on good portions of their 12-acre suburban property because it takes them longer to maintain the important areas directly adjacent to their home. Bad knees, bad backs, and other injuries are slowing them down, and forcing them to be more cautious. Neither has any life-alert system, but may need to consider that in the future. In the meantime, I've begun volunteering to help them with various yard-work projects, but I don't have much additional time to devote to this; they are well-aware that moving somewhere more urban (a genuine fear of my grandmother, who loves the country) will eventually become a necessity, because it's simply not practical to live where they are now, given the amount of effort required by themselves and others to keep the place running. They are more of an edge case, but old people in general have a harder time with basic maintenance (ladders, mowing, etc).
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Re: North Spokane Corridor - US 395 in Spokane, WA
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2019, 06:16:30 PM »

Quote
No doubt that moving to more urban areas can be expensive. But that's why you have urban planners doing their best to ensure that we build more densely in the first place, and work with subsidized housing organizations to maintain a supply of well-built affordable housing close to public transit and other places that can be accessed on foot (especially helpful for older people who may not be able to afford a car, or who may be blind and unable to drive). This is happening somewhat successfully in some cities (Tacoma), but not as much in some others (San Francisco, from what I can tell). But a lot of west-coast cities have also seen massive population booms over the last twenty years or longer, which has been leapfrogging the pace of development.

I would say urban planning that encourages the construction of good-quality yet truly affordable housing in dense urban cores is happening only in very rare circumstances within the US.

Within the largest American cities the housing markets are primarily an investment tool to make lots and lots of money.

New York City is very "liberal," but the market is notorious for all the scams used to kick elderly people and low income families out of rent-controlled apartments so the units could be renovated into "luxury" apartments for upwardly mobile hispter youth -basically the "yuppie scum" of today.

Scams to flip rent-controlled apartment buildings into luxury condos aren't as widespread in politically red-ish cities like Dallas. But there is a large enough conservative population, enough influence from business groups and a whole hell of a lot of NIMBY-rage to stop lots of affordable housing developments from being built at all.

In the end, there is a very short supply of housing that is affordable to young adults. These young adults could be college graduates saddled with a fortune of student loan debt or they might be young adults who couldn't afford college and had to train for a lower paying trade instead. Either way they're faced with a very tiny inventory of affordable housing units large enough for a spouse and children. Financially a bunch of these people are stuck living tiny either with parents or as single adults in the smallest of apartments. These are not great conditions in which our nation can grow the next generation of its work force and tax base.
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