California

[Max Rockatansky]

I think that idea was borne from the "we can conquer nature no matter what" mentality that I thought died off with the Edwardian era, but seems to have existed until the environmentalism movement became popular. When I looked at the 1934 California route proposal that was featured in the (now) Caltrans journal, it had lines that showed routes going over the Sierra, or along the Klamath River. It seems the idea was "we'll just build these routes no matter how difficult, expensive, or environmentally sensitive."

The Piute Pass Highway and Kings Canyon Highway were both Forest Service driven.  Both would have been maintained by the Forest Service as Sign Route 168 and 180 continuations.  The Forest Service sought input from the Division of Highways pertaining to the Kings Canyon Highway between Cedar Grove and Kearsarge Pass.  The expansion of General Grant National Park into Kings Canyon National Park absorbed both planned highways.  Suffice to say the mission of the Park Service was already moving towards preservation, I'd argue that was never the goal of the Forest Service.

The Lone Pine-Porterville High Sierra Road was annexed into the early corridor concepts of for CA 190 over Mulky Pass.  The strange thing is the most difficult portion of that highway which is now Horseshoe Meadows Road was actually constructed and is higher than Tioga Pass Road.  The Division of Highways relinquished Horseshoe Meadows Road to the Forest Service in favor of a lower altitude routing.  Considering the Forest Service constructed Sherman Pass Road during the 1970s I doubt they would object too much towards CA 190 being completed.  To your point the mission statement of Caltrans and the CTC are very different compared to the Division of Highways and CHC.  Either way, Sherman Pass Road more or less functions as the missing link between the segments of CA 190. 

Pertaining to Topanga Canyon and Malibu Canyon.  If any planned route was added to the 1959 Freeway & Expressway System then yes, it was in fact planned at least as an expressway if not fully limited access.

[skluth]

Suffice to say the mission of the Park Service was already moving towards preservation, I'd argue that was never the goal of the Forest Service.

The Forest Service's mission is "To sustain the health, diversity, and productivity of the Nation's forests and grasslands to meet the needs of present and future generations." This means the Forest Service's goal is to make sure there is enough forest for American industry to exploit both today and in the future. The service was formed in response to the rapid loss of virgin forest land in the late 19th century when nobody was replacing cut forests after harvesting and forest fires were just Acts of God. Their goal was always to support the lumber and related industries and only peripherally environmental from its early days under Pinchot who constantly clashed with Mather, the first Parks director. Ken Burns' documentary on the National Parks covers this feud pretty extensively.

[Max Rockatansky]

Suffice to say the mission of the Park Service was already moving towards preservation, I'd argue that was never the goal of the Forest Service.

The Forest Service's mission is "To sustain the health, diversity, and productivity of the Nation's forests and grasslands to meet the needs of present and future generations." This means the Forest Service's goal is to make sure there is enough forest for American industry to exploit both today and in the future. The service was formed in response to the rapid loss of virgin forest land in the late 19th century when nobody was replacing cut forests after harvesting and forest fires were just Acts of God. Their goal was always to support the lumber and related industries and only peripherally environmental from its early days under Pinchot who constantly clashed with Mather, the first Parks director. Ken Burns' documentary on the National Parks covers this feud pretty extensively.

And to that end, a great way to get resources deep into a forest or mountain range is to build a road there.  Sequoia and Sierra National Forests (which are in the area being discussed) both have very active logging activities which were even larger in the past.

[skluth]

Suffice to say the mission of the Park Service was already moving towards preservation, I'd argue that was never the goal of the Forest Service.

The Forest Service's mission is "To sustain the health, diversity, and productivity of the Nation's forests and grasslands to meet the needs of present and future generations." This means the Forest Service's goal is to make sure there is enough forest for American industry to exploit both today and in the future. The service was formed in response to the rapid loss of virgin forest land in the late 19th century when nobody was replacing cut forests after harvesting and forest fires were just Acts of God. Their goal was always to support the lumber and related industries and only peripherally environmental from its early days under Pinchot who constantly clashed with Mather, the first Parks director. Ken Burns' documentary on the National Parks covers this feud pretty extensively.

And to that end, a great way to get resources deep into a forest or mountain range is to build a road there.  Sequoia and Sierra National Forests (which are in the area being discussed) both have very active logging activities which were even larger in the past.

Definitely. The Forest Service has been building and maintaining roads to support the logging industry for decades.

[Max Rockatansky]

Suffice to say the mission of the Park Service was already moving towards preservation, I'd argue that was never the goal of the Forest Service.

The Forest Service's mission is "To sustain the health, diversity, and productivity of the Nation's forests and grasslands to meet the needs of present and future generations." This means the Forest Service's goal is to make sure there is enough forest for American industry to exploit both today and in the future. The service was formed in response to the rapid loss of virgin forest land in the late 19th century when nobody was replacing cut forests after harvesting and forest fires were just Acts of God. Their goal was always to support the lumber and related industries and only peripherally environmental from its early days under Pinchot who constantly clashed with Mather, the first Parks director. Ken Burns' documentary on the National Parks covers this feud pretty extensively.

And to that end, a great way to get resources deep into a forest or mountain range is to build a road there.  Sequoia and Sierra National Forests (which are in the area being discussed) both have very active logging activities which were even larger in the past.

Definitely. The Forest Service has been building and maintaining roads to support the logging industry for decades.

Worth noting, on the western flank of the Sierra Nevada Mountains part of the Lone Pine-Porterville High Sierra Road was built and now is known as Balch Park Road (Tulare County Route J37).  Balch Park Road is one of the prime examples of a road used to haul timber just as it is to permit recreational access to Sequoia National Forest, Balch Camp and Mountain Home State Forest.  Running into a logging truck coming the opposite on Balch Park Road can get interesting given how narrow the road deck is.

[kernals12]

I think that idea was borne from the "we can conquer nature no matter what" mentality that I thought died off with the Edwardian era, but seems to have existed until the environmentalism movement became popular. When I looked at the 1934 California route proposal that was featured in the (now) Caltrans journal, it had lines that showed routes going over the Sierra, or along the Klamath River. It seems the idea was "we'll just build these routes no matter how difficult, expensive, or environmentally sensitive."

The Piute Pass Highway and Kings Canyon Highway were both Forest Service driven.  Both would have been maintained by the Forest Service as Sign Route 168 and 180 continuations.  The Forest Service sought input from the Division of Highways pertaining to the Kings Canyon Highway between Cedar Grove and Kearsarge Pass.  The expansion of General Grant National Park into Kings Canyon National Park absorbed both planned highways.  Suffice to say the mission of the Park Service was already moving towards preservation, I'd argue that was never the goal of the Forest Service.

The Lone Pine-Porterville High Sierra Road was annexed into the early corridor concepts of for CA 190 over Mulky Pass.  The strange thing is the most difficult portion of that highway which is now Horseshoe Meadows Road was actually constructed and is higher than Tioga Pass Road.  The Division of Highways relinquished Horseshoe Meadows Road to the Forest Service in favor of a lower altitude routing.  Considering the Forest Service constructed Sherman Pass Road during the 1970s I doubt they would object too much towards CA 190 being completed.  To your point the mission statement of Caltrans and the CTC are very different compared to the Division of Highways and CHC.  Either way, Sherman Pass Road more or less functions as the missing link between the segments of CA 190. 

Pertaining to Topanga Canyon and Malibu Canyon.  If any planned route was added to the 1959 Freeway & Expressway System then yes, it was in fact planned at least as an expressway if not fully limited access.

It's pretty obvious the 1959 Freeway and Expressway plan was drawn up before any detailed study of the routes could be conducted.

[Max Rockatansky]

I think that idea was borne from the "we can conquer nature no matter what" mentality that I thought died off with the Edwardian era, but seems to have existed until the environmentalism movement became popular. When I looked at the 1934 California route proposal that was featured in the (now) Caltrans journal, it had lines that showed routes going over the Sierra, or along the Klamath River. It seems the idea was "we'll just build these routes no matter how difficult, expensive, or environmentally sensitive."

The Piute Pass Highway and Kings Canyon Highway were both Forest Service driven.  Both would have been maintained by the Forest Service as Sign Route 168 and 180 continuations.  The Forest Service sought input from the Division of Highways pertaining to the Kings Canyon Highway between Cedar Grove and Kearsarge Pass.  The expansion of General Grant National Park into Kings Canyon National Park absorbed both planned highways.  Suffice to say the mission of the Park Service was already moving towards preservation, I'd argue that was never the goal of the Forest Service.

The Lone Pine-Porterville High Sierra Road was annexed into the early corridor concepts of for CA 190 over Mulky Pass.  The strange thing is the most difficult portion of that highway which is now Horseshoe Meadows Road was actually constructed and is higher than Tioga Pass Road.  The Division of Highways relinquished Horseshoe Meadows Road to the Forest Service in favor of a lower altitude routing.  Considering the Forest Service constructed Sherman Pass Road during the 1970s I doubt they would object too much towards CA 190 being completed.  To your point the mission statement of Caltrans and the CTC are very different compared to the Division of Highways and CHC.  Either way, Sherman Pass Road more or less functions as the missing link between the segments of CA 190. 

Pertaining to Topanga Canyon and Malibu Canyon.  If any planned route was added to the 1959 Freeway & Expressway System then yes, it was in fact planned at least as an expressway if not fully limited access.

It's pretty obvious the 1959 Freeway and Expressway plan was drawn up before any detailed study of the routes could be conducted.

Heh...give a listen when California Route By Route episode 1.04 comes out, we touch on that.

[pderocco]

The Forest Service's mission is "To sustain the health, diversity, and productivity of the Nation's forests and grasslands to meet the needs of present and future generations." This means the Forest Service's goal is to make sure there is enough forest for American industry to exploit both today and in the future. The service was formed in response to the rapid loss of virgin forest land in the late 19th century when nobody was replacing cut forests after harvesting and forest fires were just Acts of God. Their goal was always to support the lumber and related industries and only peripherally environmental from its early days under Pinchot who constantly clashed with Mather, the first Parks director. Ken Burns' documentary on the National Parks covers this feud pretty extensively.

And to that end, a great way to get resources deep into a forest or mountain range is to build a road there.  Sequoia and Sierra National Forests (which are in the area being discussed) both have very active logging activities which were even larger in the past.

Definitely. The Forest Service has been building and maintaining roads to support the logging industry for decades.

Not surprising, given that the Park Service is part of the Interior Department, and the Forest Service is part of the Agriculture Department.

[pderocco]

The Lone Pine-Porterville High Sierra Road was annexed into the early corridor concepts of for CA 190 over Mulky Pass.  The strange thing is the most difficult portion of that highway which is now Horseshoe Meadows Road was actually constructed and is higher than Tioga Pass Road.  The Division of Highways relinquished Horseshoe Meadows Road to the Forest Service in favor of a lower altitude routing.  Considering the Forest Service constructed Sherman Pass Road during the 1970s I doubt they would object too much towards CA 190 being completed.

Mulky is close to 10400, which means it would be closed every winter. Haiwee pass is a little over 8200, and I think there's a path from there that doesn't exceed that elevation. A road that low, maintained by the state, might manage to stay open most winters, like Onyx Summit on CA-38 in the San Bernardino Mountains.

If they ever built 190, it would doubtless intersect FR-21S03, connecting it to Sherman Pass Rd, which would be cool.

[Max Rockatansky]

The Lone Pine-Porterville High Sierra Road was annexed into the early corridor concepts of for CA 190 over Mulky Pass.  The strange thing is the most difficult portion of that highway which is now Horseshoe Meadows Road was actually constructed and is higher than Tioga Pass Road.  The Division of Highways relinquished Horseshoe Meadows Road to the Forest Service in favor of a lower altitude routing.  Considering the Forest Service constructed Sherman Pass Road during the 1970s I doubt they would object too much towards CA 190 being completed.

Mulky is close to 10400, which means it would be closed every winter. Haiwee pass is a little over 8200, and I think there's a path from there that doesn't exceed that elevation. A road that low, maintained by the state, might manage to stay open most winters, like Onyx Summit on CA-38 in the San Bernardino Mountains.

If they ever built 190, it would doubtless intersect FR-21S03, connecting it to Sherman Pass Rd, which would be cool.

Correct, Haiwee would be the highest elevation point on the modern adopted alignment of 190. The trouble isn't so much the height but rather the north/south oriented Kern River Fault.  That would include dropping quite a bit of elevation in the middle of the Sierra Nevada Mountains and making a rapid ascent.  Even at 6,000 feet above sea level I don't see how a highway could be kept open all year in a cost effective way.   

[Quillz]

190 is completed as far as I'm concerned. Other than some bad asphalt around Kennedy Meadows, the entire route through the Sierra is easy to drive in the summer, and provides a complete connection between the two CA-190 alignments (although a long implied US-395 concurrency is required). It doesn't follow the route Caltrans wanted, but we got what we got.

[bing101]

https://www.socalregion.com/ridge-route-alternate-presentation-video/

Here is a feature on the Ridge Route presentation by Mike Ballard.

[Max Rockatansky]

190 is completed as far as I'm concerned. Other than some bad asphalt around Kennedy Meadows, the entire route through the Sierra is easy to drive in the summer, and provides a complete connection between the two CA-190 alignments (although a long implied US-395 concurrency is required). It doesn't follow the route Caltrans wanted, but we got what we got.

What interests me that the general routing for 190 was determined but it was never classified as part of the Freeways & Expressways System.  I would have to imagine after all those alignment revisions it would confrom to two lane expressway standards:

http://www.davidrumsey.com/ll/thumbnailView.html?startUrl=%2F%2Fwww.davidrumsey.com%2Fluna%2Fservlet%2Fas%2Fsearch%3Fos%3D0%26lc%3DRUMSEY~8~1%26q%3DCALTRANs%201982%26sort%3DPub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No%26bs%3D10#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=0&r=0&xywh=7122%2C8183%2C871%2C1427

[gonealookin]

District 9 is "aiming for an October reopening" of CA 190 for access to Death Valley from the US 395 corridor, from either Lone Pine/Olancha or from Ridgecrest.  It sounded like the Towne Pass segment between the Panamint Valley and Stovepipe Wells in Death Valley proper had the worst damage and will be the last to open.

https://twitter.com/Caltrans9/status/1575590596890140672

[Quillz]

Oh, I didn't even know it was closed. Haven't been to Death Valley for a few years.

[Max Rockatansky]

Good to know Westgard Pass is open, I might have interest in that now for October. 

[Alps]

Oh, I didn't even know it was closed. Haven't been to Death Valley for a few years.

It just happened this year. I should know, I was just there last year.

[Quillz]

I've never done Westgard Pass. Went into the White Mountains once for a field study. But anything beyond that I've never been to. I finally visited Modoc County in 2020, next time I'm near Mammoth, I should finally clinch CA-168 (and CA-266).

[Max Rockatansky]

I've never done Westgard Pass. Went into the White Mountains once for a field study. But anything beyond that I've never been to. I finally visited Modoc County in 2020, next time I'm near Mammoth, I should finally clinch CA-168 (and CA-266).

The last time I was out on Westgard Pass was something like 2009-10?  I was supposed to go back in 2020 but my wife was diagnosed was COVID suddenly during our trip.  It wasn't a total wash though, I did knock out Old CA 180 on Onion Valley Road and Old CA 190 on Horseshoe Meadows Road. 

[Quillz]

I did knock out Old CA 180 on Onion Valley Road and Old CA 190 on Horseshoe Meadows Road.

These have been actually signed in the past?

[Max Rockatansky]

I did knock out Old CA 180 on Onion Valley Road and Old CA 190 on Horseshoe Meadows Road.

These have been actually signed in the past?

Unclear, but it was in the original definition for Sign Route 180 and appears on at least couple maps.  Granted the Onion Valley Road of today is far more tame than the haul road of the Kearsarge Mine:

https://www.gribblenation.org/2020/08/onion-valley-road-former-california.html?m=1

[gonealookin]

Oh, I didn't even know it was closed. Haven't been to Death Valley for a few years.

It just happened this year. I should know, I was just there last year.

This summer's desert monsoon season was tough on Death Valley with a one-two punch of flash flooding.  There was a round of storms in early August that caused a fair amount of damage.  I think they got the main roads mostly reopened, but then there was a hurricane in early September that came closer than usual to the San Diego area, and that sent more moisture up into the desert and the eastern Sierra with additional road damage.

[pderocco]

This summer's desert monsoon season was tough on Death Valley with a one-two punch of flash flooding.  There was a round of storms in early August that caused a fair amount of damage.  I think they got the main roads mostly reopened, but then there was a hurricane in early September that came closer than usual to the San Diego area, and that sent more moisture up into the desert and the eastern Sierra with additional road damage.

A hurricane? Where was that? I recall getting a bunch of rain one night in San Diego.

[Quillz]

This summer's desert monsoon season was tough on Death Valley with a one-two punch of flash flooding.  There was a round of storms in early August that caused a fair amount of damage.  I think they got the main roads mostly reopened, but then there was a hurricane in early September that came closer than usual to the San Diego area, and that sent more moisture up into the desert and the eastern Sierra with additional road damage.

A hurricane? Where was that? I recall getting a bunch of rain one night in San Diego.

There was a topical storm over the Gulf of California about a month ago. Technically it would be a typhoon, not a hurricane. They are the same but typhoon is when it's Pacific origin, hurricane when it's Atlantic origin.

[gonealookin]

This summer's desert monsoon season was tough on Death Valley with a one-two punch of flash flooding.  There was a round of storms in early August that caused a fair amount of damage.  I think they got the main roads mostly reopened, but then there was a hurricane in early September that came closer than usual to the San Diego area, and that sent more moisture up into the desert and the eastern Sierra with additional road damage.

A hurricane? Where was that? I recall getting a bunch of rain one night in San Diego.

There was a topical storm over the Gulf of California about a month ago. Technically it would be a typhoon, not a hurricane. They are the same but typhoon is when it's Pacific origin, hurricane when it's Atlantic origin.

It was Hurricane Kay, which moved up west of the west coast of Baja California around September 7-9.  It was downgraded to a tropical storm and then to a post-tropical cyclone by the time it got near the U.S./Mexico border and then died out west of northern Baja.

The storms affecting the west coast of North America and Hawaii are referred to as "hurricanes" if they reach that strength.  Notably, Hurricane Iniki caused considerable devastation in Kauai in September 1992.