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Author Topic: 71  (Read 5923 times)

Angelo71

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« on: August 08, 2020, 08:21:52 PM »

71
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 02:01:04 PM by Angelo71 »
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STLmapboy

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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2020, 11:14:45 PM »

Why not? It's a good auxiliary route to I-79 and lets people in West PA/East OH get quickly to Pittsburgh (and vice versa). A Clevelander could easily go 80-76-376 to get to the burgh. And that's not to mention the airport connection for locals.

The 376 designation was extended along 279, PA-60, and others in 2009. It previously went from Plum to downtown Pittsburgh.

Also, I think "long" is the word you're looking for here, rather than "big."
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 11:17:12 PM by STLmapboy »
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tylert120

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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2020, 03:37:35 PM »

The 376 designation was extended along 279, PA-60, and others in 2009. It previously went from Plum to downtown Pittsburgh.

376 never went to Plum.
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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2020, 03:39:13 PM »

If I-376 is an auxillary highway which purpose is to connect Monroeville to Pittsburgh and the Airport, why does it go to I-80, not end after the airport?

It's not even the biggest x76 in PA.
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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2020, 03:45:34 PM »

The question I always had about I-376: Why the Odd and not an Even?

I have the opposite question for I-476: Why the Even and not an Odd?

But then I remember, the Even/Odd 3DI rules are more like Suggestions and Guidelines, not really hard Rules. And different states interpret those Guidelines/Rules differently, anyway
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Angelo71

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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2020, 04:23:28 PM »

If I-376 is an auxillary highway which purpose is to connect Monroeville to Pittsburgh and the Airport, why does it go to I-80, not end after the airport?

It's not even the biggest x76 in PA.
I'm aware but after the airport there is absolutely no point in it existing
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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2020, 08:58:16 PM »

If I-376 is an auxillary highway which purpose is to connect Monroeville to Pittsburgh and the Airport, why does it go to I-80, not end after the airport?

It's not even the biggest x76 in PA.
I'm aware but after the airport there is absolutely no point in it existing

I-376 was routed over already interstate grade freeway through sizable towns like New Castle and Sharon. There are far more interstates that aren't nearly as necessary or practical as I-376 (eg. I-180 WY and IL), but that's just the nature of the system.
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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2020, 01:44:12 PM »

The question I always had about I-376: Why the Odd and not an Even?

I have the opposite question for I-476: Why the Even and not an Odd?

But then I remember, the Even/Odd 3DI rules are more like Suggestions and Guidelines, not really hard Rules. And different states interpret those Guidelines/Rules differently, anyway

In the case of 376, remember that it was originally the route that ran from downtown Pittsburgh to the turnpike at Monroeville. Basically a spur from I-76. It probably made more sense to extend the number of 376 out to I-80 than it did 279.
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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2020, 02:48:52 PM »

The question I always had about I-376: Why the Odd and not an Even?

I have the opposite question for I-476: Why the Even and not an Odd?

But then I remember, the Even/Odd 3DI rules are more like Suggestions and Guidelines, not really hard Rules. And different states interpret those Guidelines/Rules differently, anyway

In the case of 376, remember that it was originally the route that ran from downtown Pittsburgh to the turnpike at Monroeville. Basically a spur from I-76. It probably made more sense to extend the number of 376 out to I-80 than it did 279.

You bring up a very good point.  The Parkway was I-376 from Monroeville to the Point (Downtown P), I-279 from the Point to I-79, US 22/30 from there until the next major interchange.  At that point the parkway headed west, and PA-60 continued on the expressway trajectory to the Airport and beyond. 

If this whole road from Monroeville to the Airport and beyond was to be given its own number, I-376 would make sense to keep the continuity.  I-279 was designed as an in-town loop  (as opposed to a bypass loop) of Downtown Pittsburgh and doesn't make sense as a number west of I-79, especially if it went way north beyond the Airport to reach the Turnpike.

Does anyone know the timing?  Did they sign I-376 along the part that is west of I-79 at the same time as they made the 376/279 switch between I-79 and the Point, or did the extension of I-376 west of I-79 occur much later?

EDITED TO ADD:  I found an answer.  On June 10, 2009, the section between I-79 and the Point became I-376.  Modernization work along the parkway west of I-79 occurred over the course of several years and was finally opened to the public as I-376 on August 1, 2010.  [The 22/30 and free PA-60 were not up to interstate standards before the modernization.]  But both aspects were funded from the same legislation, the federal SAFETEA-LU legislation passed in 2005.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2010/20100726160344.htm




« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 03:14:58 PM by mrsman »
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rickmastfan67

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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2020, 04:53:13 PM »

Does anyone know the timing?  Did they sign I-376 along the part that is west of I-79 at the same time as they made the 376/279 switch between I-79 and the Point, or did the extension of I-376 west of I-79 occur much later?

I-279 & I-376 were both co-signed for awhile along the Parkway West during the changeover.

Also, here's the old-school thread on this subject. :)
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=450.0

VTGoose

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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2020, 09:35:38 AM »

EDITED TO ADD:  I found an answer.  On June 10, 2009, the section between I-79 and the Point became I-376.  Modernization work along the parkway west of I-79 occurred over the course of several years and was finally opened to the public as I-376 on August 1, 2010.  [The 22/30 and free PA-60 were not up to interstate standards before the modernization.]  But both aspects were funded from the same legislation, the federal SAFETEA-LU legislation passed in 2005.

https://www.paturnpike.com/press/2010/20100726160344.htm

The Parkway West originally connected downtown Pittsburgh with the airport in Moon Township. It was a limited-access highway from downtown to the Montour interchange (next one west/north of U.S. 22/30). From there to its end at Beers School Rd. and the airport entrance, there were at-grade intersections with a number of roads. There were gradual improvements to close off those roads, such as the interchange for Thorn Run Rd. Ext. and the air base entrance. The Beaver Valley Expressway was also constructed from Moon Twp. to Vanport, with plans to extend it north to PA 51. The parkway connection was never completed, so there was a surface road connection to the end of the Parkway at the airport. When the new airport terminal was planned for Findlay Township, the new road was constructed from near the Montour interchange (wiping out White Swan amusement park) to the west of the airport, to tie in with the Expressway north of the existing end. The expressway was also continued north to New Castle and Sharon, built as part of the PA Turnpike for financing. The I-376 designation was applied to give the route a continuous number from end to end.

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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2020, 11:46:13 AM »

If it were me, I'd get rid of the 376 designation altogether, route I-76 along current I-376, make existing I-76 from Monroeville to New Galilee I-876, and turn the rest of I-376 up to I-80 into I-580.
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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2020, 02:00:49 PM »

Interstate 376

Does that help?
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tylert120

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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2020, 03:17:13 PM »

If it were me, I'd get rid of the 376 designation altogether, route I-76 along current I-376, make existing I-76 from Monroeville to New Galilee I-876, and turn the rest of I-376 up to I-80 into I-580.

What exactly does this solve?

I could understanding wanting to change the designation between Pittsburgh Int’l and I-80. But the rest of the suggestions don’t make much sense to me.
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Mr_Northside

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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2020, 03:42:41 PM »

If it were me, I'd get rid of the 376 designation altogether, route I-76 along current I-376, make existing I-76 from Monroeville to New Galilee I-876, and turn the rest of I-376 up to I-80 into I-580.

What exactly does this solve?

I could understanding wanting to change the designation between Pittsburgh Int’l and I-80. But the rest of the suggestions don’t make much sense to me.

Agreed.  Routing I-76 off the TPK then back on to it seems extremely convoluted.  I'll grant the current I-376 is a weird shaped route, but it's how PennDOT (and the PTC) crapped together a bunch of highways over decades.
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ilpt4u

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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2020, 03:58:13 PM »

Agreed.  Routing I-76 off the TPK then back on to it seems extremely convoluted.  I'll grant the current I-376 is a weird shaped route, but it's how PennDOT (and the PTC) crapped together a bunch of highways over decades.
I-90’s routing off the NY Thruway in Albany, to rejoin both east and west of town is waving “hello”  :wave:
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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2020, 04:03:15 PM »

If it were me, I'd get rid of the 376 designation altogether, route I-76 along current I-376, make existing I-76 from Monroeville to New Galilee I-876, and turn the rest of I-376 up to I-80 into I-580.
NY has far worse situations than having an odd for an even 3 digit.  I-678 and I-278 both are not even connected to their respected parents.

I-520 in GA and SC is another odd loop beltway with the same similar situation.   It was a spur extended further into a loop around Augusta.
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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2020, 04:06:36 PM »

Agreed.  Routing I-76 off the TPK then back on to it seems extremely convoluted.  I'll grant the current I-376 is a weird shaped route, but it's how PennDOT (and the PTC) crapped together a bunch of highways over decades.
I-90’s routing off the NY Thruway in Albany, to rejoin both east and west of town is waving “hello”  :wave:

It serves a better purpose.  Connect the dots of Monroeville to Beaver Valley.  It is more direct on the tolled freeway over going through Pittsburgh.   Doing it your way is not a shortcut like I-90 is in Albany.
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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2020, 04:38:26 PM »

Agreed.  Routing I-76 off the TPK then back on to it seems extremely convoluted.  I'll grant the current I-376 is a weird shaped route, but it's how PennDOT (and the PTC) crapped together a bunch of highways over decades.
I-90’s routing off the NY Thruway in Albany, to rejoin both east and west of town is waving “hello”  :wave:

It serves a better purpose.  Connect the dots of Monroeville to Beaver Valley.  It is more direct on the tolled freeway over going through Pittsburgh.   Doing it your way is not a shortcut like I-90 is in Albany.
Oh I don’t think I-76 should leave the PA Turnpike. I was merely pointing out that I-90 leaves the Thruway to come back to it on both sides of Albany

I think that situation is quite convoluted, as well, but I won’t advocate changing any numberings there

Deciding on new designations, unless they are actual DOT/Toll Authority proposals/plans, is pretty much what the Fictional board is for
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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2020, 09:27:13 PM »

Agreed.  Routing I-76 off the TPK then back on to it seems extremely convoluted.  I'll grant the current I-376 is a weird shaped route, but it's how PennDOT (and the PTC) crapped together a bunch of highways over decades.
I-90’s routing off the NY Thruway in Albany, to rejoin both east and west of town is waving “hello”  :wave:

It serves a better purpose.  Connect the dots of Monroeville to Beaver Valley.  It is more direct on the tolled freeway over going through Pittsburgh.   Doing it your way is not a shortcut like I-90 is in Albany.
Oh I don’t think I-76 should leave the PA Turnpike. I was merely pointing out that I-90 leaves the Thruway to come back to it on both sides of Albany

I think that situation is quite convoluted, as well, but I won’t advocate changing any numberings there

Deciding on new designations, unless they are actual DOT/Toll Authority proposals/plans, is pretty much what the Fictional board is for
I like the idea of Interstates going into the cities and 3dis bypassing them. Many people on here probably disagree.
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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2020, 02:14:35 PM »

Agreed.  Routing I-76 off the TPK then back on to it seems extremely convoluted.  I'll grant the current I-376 is a weird shaped route, but it's how PennDOT (and the PTC) crapped together a bunch of highways over decades.
I-90’s routing off the NY Thruway in Albany, to rejoin both east and west of town is waving “hello”  :wave:

It serves a better purpose.  Connect the dots of Monroeville to Beaver Valley.  It is more direct on the tolled freeway over going through Pittsburgh.   Doing it your way is not a shortcut like I-90 is in Albany.
Oh I don’t think I-76 should leave the PA Turnpike. I was merely pointing out that I-90 leaves the Thruway to come back to it on both sides of Albany

I think that situation is quite convoluted, as well, but I won’t advocate changing any numberings there

Deciding on new designations, unless they are actual DOT/Toll Authority proposals/plans, is pretty much what the Fictional board is for
I like the idea of Interstates going into the cities and 3dis bypassing them. Many people on here probably disagree.

Interestingly enough, this 1970 PennDOT map shows I-76 routed from the turnpike to end at I-79 in the city center. This was when I-80S followed the turnpike from Monroeville to Youngstown, Ohio. When I-80S was decommissioned, I-76 followed its current route on the Turnpike to Ohio and I-376 was created to downtown. And, I-79 was rerouted to the bypass, swapping its designation with I-279, probably in the name of route continuity.

A counter-example of the I-90 Thruway at Albany situation is I-80's planned exiting from the turnpike system then reconnecting in Cleveland. Originally, I-80 was to leave the turnpike and follow the route of current I-480. This plan was also changed for the sake of route continuity.

At this point, it makes little sense to re-reroute I-76 back through Pittsburgh just to get back on the turnpike at the New Castle exit. The exit at Monroeville is a tight-radii trumpet, and I-376 is a pretty substandard design and rather congested already through downtown Pittsburgh. Additionally, the New Castle exit isn't a free-flowing interstate to interstate connection. It's a half-parclo, half diamond interchange from I-376 with stop signs and left turns. It would create another Breezewood-like situation for a 2DI mainline which, I assert, few roadgeeks would support.
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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2020, 11:33:01 PM »

I-520 in GA and SC is another odd loop beltway with the same similar situation.   It was a spur extended further into a loop around Augusta.
I-540 / NC-540

Same situation, a spur eventually converted into a loop.
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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2020, 11:05:01 AM »

Agreed.  Routing I-76 off the TPK then back on to it seems extremely convoluted.  I'll grant the current I-376 is a weird shaped route, but it's how PennDOT (and the PTC) crapped together a bunch of highways over decades.
I-90’s routing off the NY Thruway in Albany, to rejoin both east and west of town is waving “hello”  :wave:

It serves a better purpose.  Connect the dots of Monroeville to Beaver Valley.  It is more direct on the tolled freeway over going through Pittsburgh.   Doing it your way is not a shortcut like I-90 is in Albany.
Oh I don’t think I-76 should leave the PA Turnpike. I was merely pointing out that I-90 leaves the Thruway to come back to it on both sides of Albany

I think that situation is quite convoluted, as well, but I won’t advocate changing any numberings there

Deciding on new designations, unless they are actual DOT/Toll Authority proposals/plans, is pretty much what the Fictional board is for
I like the idea of Interstates going into the cities and 3dis bypassing them. Many people on here probably disagree.

Interestingly enough, this 1970 PennDOT map shows I-76 routed from the turnpike to end at I-79 in the city center. This was when I-80S followed the turnpike from Monroeville to Youngstown, Ohio. When I-80S was decommissioned, I-76 followed its current route on the Turnpike to Ohio and I-376 was created to downtown. And, I-79 was rerouted to the bypass, swapping its designation with I-279, probably in the name of route continuity.

A counter-example of the I-90 Thruway at Albany situation is I-80's planned exiting from the turnpike system then reconnecting in Cleveland. Originally, I-80 was to leave the turnpike and follow the route of current I-480. This plan was also changed for the sake of route continuity.

At this point, it makes little sense to re-reroute I-76 back through Pittsburgh just to get back on the turnpike at the New Castle exit. The exit at Monroeville is a tight-radii trumpet, and I-376 is a pretty substandard design and rather congested already through downtown Pittsburgh. Additionally, the New Castle exit isn't a free-flowing interstate to interstate connection. It's a half-parclo, half diamond interchange from I-376 with stop signs and left turns. It would create another Breezewood-like situation for a 2DI mainline which, I assert, few roadgeeks would support.

In my view, Pittsburgh is the model to follow in this regard, not the exception that has to change to conform with everyone else.  It is far better to keep 76 and 79 away from the city and have spur routes for travel through town.  keep the interstate traffic away from the city center.
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ethanhopkin14

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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2020, 11:38:11 AM »

I-520 in GA and SC is another odd loop beltway with the same similar situation.   It was a spur extended further into a loop around Augusta.
I-540 / NC-540

Same situation, a spur eventually converted into a loop.

I-635 in Texas.  A loop converted into a spur. 
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Re: Why is I-376 so big
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2020, 05:14:38 PM »

Agreed.  Routing I-76 off the TPK then back on to it seems extremely convoluted.  I'll grant the current I-376 is a weird shaped route, but it's how PennDOT (and the PTC) crapped together a bunch of highways over decades.
I-90’s routing off the NY Thruway in Albany, to rejoin both east and west of town is waving “hello”  :wave:

Yeah, but that one should go away when New York is forced to adopt mileage-based exits: they can extend I-88 along the Thruway and have it take over the I-90 through Albany.  I-90 can stay on the Thruway then.  No 3dis required. 
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