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Author Topic: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling  (Read 10659 times)

bing101

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ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« on: December 05, 2020, 09:16:39 PM »

https://www.koin.com/news/oregon/odot-strong-opposition-from-public-on-i-205-tolling/


Note this I-205 tolling debate in Oregon is in relation to an environmental impact study that is being discussed here.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 03:34:26 AM by Bickendan »
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Bickendan

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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2020, 03:34:14 AM »

lol the pic they show is captioned 'Traffic on I-205' and it's actually I-84/US30 at Lloyd
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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2020, 05:22:04 AM »


Quote
People still don’t like tolls.

I did not know there is any Toll Roads in Oregon.

I will gladly pay it.
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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2020, 05:35:37 AM »


Quote
People still don’t like tolls.

I did not know there is any Toll Roads in Oregon.

I will gladly pay it.

None operated by the state.  There are some private ferries and some bridges that are tolled. 

If ODOT does decide to start tolling, it'd be interesting to see what they would call it.  Washington has Good To Go and California has Fastrak.  They all use their own transponder system, but all of the ETC agencies in the country may be standardized in the near future.
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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2020, 05:55:39 PM »

There is always "strong opposition" to tolling from places where historically tolling has not been utilized. If this tolling proposal goes through, all toll revenue raised should go directly to the roadway being tolled (via maintaining it, etc.). If the toll revenue is diverted to fund other uses, (light rail, densifying neighborhoods, etc.), it would defeat the purpose of tolling the roads, and thus justify the opposition to road tolling. Also, if tolling is implemented, perhaps they can stop charging gas taxes, since the revenue those taxes generate have been diverted to other uses for decades. Not to mention that revenue from gas taxes has been drying up due to more fuel-efficient cars, as well as more electric cars.
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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2020, 06:27:18 PM »

I'm not against tolls (eg. I'll gladly drive a road like the NJTP), but I'm very against adding tolls to previously free roads. The only exception I'm okay with (though still not ideal) is replacing large bridges and other similarly large scale projects, eg. the I-5 Columbia Bridge if they ever get around to that. The Abernethy bridge doesn't quite fit that to me, and in this case would just add traffic to surrounding surface streets, particularly OR-43, unless the toll was cheap, like around $1. West Linn, Oregon City, and Gladstone are too connected on a local level for this to make sense, even without factoring in the larger Portland regional traffic.

Also, tolling the highway that bypasses downtown Portland, instead of the one going through downtown, seems pretty backwards. Though I'm sure I-5 will get some form of toll at some point (and it will be more justified than I-205's most likely).
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 06:29:25 PM by doorknob60 »
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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2020, 09:45:06 PM »

Oregon's ultimate goal is to toll everything around Portland, though I-205 is the most immediate and the only other plan that's moving forward is I-5.  At the end of the day, the reasons are largely ideological.

I also agree about hating tolling existing free roads, and my distaste for it only grows outsize of E-ZPass territory as I don't trust bill by mail (and refuse to pay the associated fees).  Unfortunately, I don't see nation-wide toll interoperability happening any time soon.  We're more than four years from the original deadline for that passing, and not much progress has been made.
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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2020, 07:49:37 AM »

I don't trust bill by mail (and refuse to pay the associated fees)

It all depends on which state it's in. MA charges slightly more for bill by mail, but there are no administrative fees, and there are no known instances where someone doesn't get the original bill and then gets a late fee. While MA does use E-ZPass, there are probably a decent number of states with a good bill by mail system.
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kkt

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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2020, 02:24:00 AM »

If they toll 205, they pretty much have to toll 5 also.

Tolling has two problems:  A lot more of the money collect in tolls is overhead than in gas taxes.  And tolling creates a record of where you (or your vehicle) was when.  That will be abused.
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Alps

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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2020, 09:26:31 PM »

If they toll 205, they pretty much have to toll 5 also.

Tolling has two problems:  A lot more of the money collect in tolls is overhead than in gas taxes.  And tolling creates a record of where you (or your vehicle) was when.  That will be abused.

That has never been abused by any other toll agency. Dead issue.

Bickendan

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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2020, 11:18:57 PM »

I'm not against tolls (eg. I'll gladly drive a road like the NJTP), but I'm very against adding tolls to previously free roads. The only exception I'm okay with (though still not ideal) is replacing large bridges and other similarly large scale projects, eg. the I-5 Columbia Bridge if they ever get around to that. The Abernethy bridge doesn't quite fit that to me, and in this case would just add traffic to surrounding surface streets, particularly OR-43, unless the toll was cheap, like around $1. West Linn, Oregon City, and Gladstone are too connected on a local level for this to make sense, even without factoring in the larger Portland regional traffic.


To expand, few problems that would arise:
Nyberg/65th/Borland/Willamette Falls Dr (old OR 212's western half) nor Stafford Rd couldn't handle the traffic load from shunpikers between Tualatin/Wilsonville and West Linn/OC. The increase in surface traffic would overwhelm the labyrinthine West Linn arteries between Willamette Falls and OR 43.
The 7th St Bridge on OR 43 is too narrow to take any more traffic (and TriMet lines 35 and 154 have been permanently rerouted onto the Abernethy Bridge since the 7th St Bridge's rehab a few years back); the intersection of Willamette Falls Dr and Willamette Dr would cause backups along Willamette Falls Dr and A St. Downtown OC's grid would be overwhelmed.
Shunpiking along McGloughlin would overwhelm Arlington St in Gladstone (and that's bad enough during rush hour), and Oatfield/Webster and 82nd Dr are the two alternates until 82nd Ave proper begins.
Oatfield/Webster: Primarily residential.
82nd Dr: Bottleneck intersection at OR 212 proper.
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kkt

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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2020, 11:19:44 PM »

So far.  That you know about.
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jakeroot

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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2020, 01:25:33 PM »

So far.  That you know about.

So let's hypothesize: in what ways could toll record-keeping be abused?
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kalvado

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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2020, 03:41:59 PM »

So far.  That you know about.

So let's hypothesize: in what ways could toll record-keeping be abused?
"if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear", right?
There may be aspects of people's lives they don't want to publish.
As of right now, third party access to EZpass data in NY is limited to legal subpoenas. A process which have never been abused, you know...
https://www.nyclu.org/sites/default/files/2013_EZPass_Requests_Redacted.pdf - an older list of requests.
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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2020, 03:56:14 PM »

So far.  That you know about.

So let's hypothesize: in what ways could toll record-keeping be abused?
"if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear", right?
There may be aspects of people's lives they don't want to publish.
As of right now, third party access to EZpass data in NY is limited to legal subpoenas. A process which have never been abused, you know...
https://www.nyclu.org/sites/default/files/2013_EZPass_Requests_Redacted.pdf - an older list of requests.

The potential for legal subpoenas exists in pretty much every industry for pretty much anything. I don't see how the subpoenas for tolling data is necessarily unique or justification for not using electronic tolling. Nor is there any evidence, to my knowledge, that it has actually been abused in anyway elsewhere. At least not to an extent beyond any other legal subpoenas. I also think Alps was trying to say that the tolling agency itself has never abused the data. Which is correct to my knowledge.
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kalvado

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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2020, 04:51:40 PM »

So far.  That you know about.

So let's hypothesize: in what ways could toll record-keeping be abused?
"if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear", right?
There may be aspects of people's lives they don't want to publish.
As of right now, third party access to EZpass data in NY is limited to legal subpoenas. A process which have never been abused, you know...
https://www.nyclu.org/sites/default/files/2013_EZPass_Requests_Redacted.pdf - an older list of requests.

The potential for legal subpoenas exists in pretty much every industry for pretty much anything. I don't see how the subpoenas for tolling data is necessarily unique or justification for not using electronic tolling. Nor is there any evidence, to my knowledge, that it has actually been abused in anyway elsewhere. At least not to an extent beyond any other legal subpoenas. I also think Alps was trying to say that the tolling agency itself has never abused the data. Which is correct to my knowledge.
Good will of tolling agency aside, what prevents the data from being mistreated?
A mere existence of recorded license plates provides material to request, unlike no tolling - or even cash tolling leaving no records behind. In general, records can get stolen, legal framework protecting them may change etc. Of course, few things prevent government, or even private entities, to have license plate readers all over the place. Add some facial recognition on top of that as images are already collected... But those cameras would need to paid for in some way, unlike readily available tolling funds. And constitutional basis of blanket reader usage is shaky - unlike specific need for toll collection with a justified pretty long data retention.

Use of data?  So far, NYSTA explicitly said that they will not use EZpass  data for speed enforcement. Which is great; but I assume there is nothing preventing state legislators from reversal that  policy as a cash cow for current budget problems.
There may be a few other things.
A quote from the random, pretty old, paper on a subject:
Quote
" The state of Virginia knows the plate number of every vehicle that crossed a Potomac River bridge from Virginia into the District of Columbia on the day of the first Obama inauguration. It also has the plate of every vehicle that showed up at the site of a Sarah Palin rally in a D.C. suburb"
Do you see something that can get abused? I do...
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Sub-Urbanite

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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2020, 01:25:02 PM »

People: I-205 is a bottleneck
ODOT: OK, we'll widen it but we'll have to pay for it with tolls
People: WHY
ODOT: We have a significant funding problem as MPG goes up (and in some cases, becomes moot)… let's charge by use instead of by gallon
People: OMG THEN THE GOVERNMENT COULD TRACK ME
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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2020, 03:12:48 PM »

People: I-205 is a bottleneck
ODOT: OK, we'll widen it but we'll have to pay for it with tolls
People: WHY
ODOT: We have a significant funding problem as MPG goes up (and in some cases, becomes moot)… let's charge by use instead of by gallon
People: OMG THEN THE GOVERNMENT COULD TRACK ME
How about that:
People: I-205 is a bottleneck
ODOT: OK, we'll widen it but we'll have to pay for it with tolls
People: WHY
ODOT: We have a significant funding problem as MPG goes up (and in some cases, becomes moot)… let's charge by use instead of by gallon
People: (reluctantly OK)
ODOT: (establishes tolls)
People: I-205 is still a bottleneck
ODOT: OK, we'll widen it when we have money... sometime in distant future
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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2020, 04:23:43 PM »

So far.  That you know about.

So let's hypothesize: in what ways could toll record-keeping be abused?
"if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear", right?
There may be aspects of people's lives they don't want to publish.
As of right now, third party access to EZpass data in NY is limited to legal subpoenas. A process which have never been abused, you know...
https://www.nyclu.org/sites/default/files/2013_EZPass_Requests_Redacted.pdf - an older list of requests.

The potential for legal subpoenas exists in pretty much every industry for pretty much anything. I don't see how the subpoenas for tolling data is necessarily unique or justification for not using electronic tolling. Nor is there any evidence, to my knowledge, that it has actually been abused in anyway elsewhere. At least not to an extent beyond any other legal subpoenas. I also think Alps was trying to say that the tolling agency itself has never abused the data. Which is correct to my knowledge.
Good will of tolling agency aside, what prevents the data from being mistreated?
A mere existence of recorded license plates provides material to request, unlike no tolling - or even cash tolling leaving no records behind. In general, records can get stolen, legal framework protecting them may change etc. Of course, few things prevent government, or even private entities, to have license plate readers all over the place. Add some facial recognition on top of that as images are already collected... But those cameras would need to paid for in some way, unlike readily available tolling funds. And constitutional basis of blanket reader usage is shaky - unlike specific need for toll collection with a justified pretty long data retention.

Clearly yes, you could consider toll systems to be an agency's "foot in the door" when it comes to automatic plate recognition, and it could reasonably be used for alternative ways of enforcement for things like vehicle registration.

However, a few things:

(1) I think plate recognition systems are going to become normal no matter what; whether it becomes a standard part of the police cruiser or a toll gantry is semantics when both treat each driver the same: there is no "just cause" in scanning the plate but, by using the road, you are submitting to a certain set of conditions, up to and including allowing your license plate to be read automatically by cameras. The legal framework that either permits or prohibits this setup is not set in stone, so I would advise against ignoring this point.

(2) "cash" tolling is increasingly a misnomer: many people use credit/debit cards or even tap to pay for agencies that support it -- those definitely leave a record, at least in terms of where your card has been. This could be even less ideal than plate reading technology, as those generally aren't used to capture faces and thus it is simply a record of where your car has been. I'm not familiar with any road-based camera system in the US that uses face-capture technology, so fearing that seems baseless when it is not a necessary component of the technology.

(3) the only sure-fire way of avoiding the above situation is to simply not have tolls, but that is not always a reasonable option for some agencies, especially as federal funding for roads becomes increasingly competitive and states are left to fend for themselves.
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kalvado

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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2020, 04:37:18 PM »

However, a few things:

(1) I think plate recognition systems are going to become normal no matter what; whether it becomes a standard part of the police cruiser or a toll gantry is semantics when both treat each driver the same: there is no "just cause" in scanning the plate but, by using the road, you are submitting to a certain set of conditions, up to and including allowing your license plate to be read automatically by cameras. The legal framework that either permits or prohibits this setup is not set in stone, so I would advise against ignoring this point.

(2) "cash" tolling is increasingly a misnomer: many people use credit/debit cards or even tap to pay for agencies that support it -- those definitely leave a record, at least in terms of where your card has been. This could be even less ideal than plate reading technology, as those generally aren't used to capture faces and thus it is simply a record of where your car has been. I'm not familiar with any road-based camera system in the US that uses face-capture technology, so fearing that seems baseless when it is not a necessary component of the technology.

(3) the only sure-fire way of avoiding the above situation is to simply not have tolls, but that is not always a reasonable option for some agencies, especially as federal funding for roads becomes increasingly competitive and states are left to fend for themselves.

I am specifically responding to @Alps statement
That has never been abused by any other toll agency. Dead issue.

There are ways for such abuse, though, even if that never happened. The issue is not the highest priority - but I don't see it as a dead one. Legal framework is still being developed, as you pointed out - so if you believe glass is half-empty - that means things are open for abuse.
Overall, this is a much broader discussion of privacy protection of things being in open view; and massive data collection vs just having things visible. A discussion which will continue for decades to come, IMHO, and going way beyond the scope of a road forum.
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vdeane

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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2020, 09:46:01 PM »

So far.  That you know about.

So let's hypothesize: in what ways could toll record-keeping be abused?
"if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear", right?
There may be aspects of people's lives they don't want to publish.
As of right now, third party access to EZpass data in NY is limited to legal subpoenas. A process which have never been abused, you know...
https://www.nyclu.org/sites/default/files/2013_EZPass_Requests_Redacted.pdf - an older list of requests.

The potential for legal subpoenas exists in pretty much every industry for pretty much anything. I don't see how the subpoenas for tolling data is necessarily unique or justification for not using electronic tolling. Nor is there any evidence, to my knowledge, that it has actually been abused in anyway elsewhere. At least not to an extent beyond any other legal subpoenas. I also think Alps was trying to say that the tolling agency itself has never abused the data. Which is correct to my knowledge.
Good will of tolling agency aside, what prevents the data from being mistreated?
A mere existence of recorded license plates provides material to request, unlike no tolling - or even cash tolling leaving no records behind. In general, records can get stolen, legal framework protecting them may change etc. Of course, few things prevent government, or even private entities, to have license plate readers all over the place. Add some facial recognition on top of that as images are already collected... But those cameras would need to paid for in some way, unlike readily available tolling funds. And constitutional basis of blanket reader usage is shaky - unlike specific need for toll collection with a justified pretty long data retention.

Clearly yes, you could consider toll systems to be an agency's "foot in the door" when it comes to automatic plate recognition, and it could reasonably be used for alternative ways of enforcement for things like vehicle registration.

However, a few things:

(1) I think plate recognition systems are going to become normal no matter what; whether it becomes a standard part of the police cruiser or a toll gantry is semantics when both treat each driver the same: there is no "just cause" in scanning the plate but, by using the road, you are submitting to a certain set of conditions, up to and including allowing your license plate to be read automatically by cameras. The legal framework that either permits or prohibits this setup is not set in stone, so I would advise against ignoring this point.

(2) "cash" tolling is increasingly a misnomer: many people use credit/debit cards or even tap to pay for agencies that support it -- those definitely leave a record, at least in terms of where your card has been. This could be even less ideal than plate reading technology, as those generally aren't used to capture faces and thus it is simply a record of where your car has been. I'm not familiar with any road-based camera system in the US that uses face-capture technology, so fearing that seems baseless when it is not a necessary component of the technology.

(3) the only sure-fire way of avoiding the above situation is to simply not have tolls, but that is not always a reasonable option for some agencies, especially as federal funding for roads becomes increasingly competitive and states are left to fend for themselves.
I believe the NY toll gantries include facial recognition, and the Wyoming speed camera proposal includes it as well.
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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2020, 11:28:07 PM »

I believe the NY toll gantries include facial recognition, and the Wyoming speed camera proposal includes it as well.

I did some Googling. Didn't see anything on Wyoming, but I did find articles about the NY facial recognition system. I had no idea that system had made its way to the US. Still, I'd like to think its use would be reserved for specific areas. I don't believe toll gantries on Oregon's I-205 would include it, for example. Perhaps a congestion zone in the center of Portland might enjoy the benefits of facial recognition in comparison.

Do toll gantries in rural areas of NY also use facial recognition? Or just the city?
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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2020, 07:58:00 AM »

I believe the NY toll gantries include facial recognition, and the Wyoming speed camera proposal includes it as well.

I did some Googling. Didn't see anything on Wyoming, but I did find articles about the NY facial recognition system. I had no idea that system had made its way to the US. Still, I'd like to think its use would be reserved for specific areas. I don't believe toll gantries on Oregon's I-205 would include it, for example. Perhaps a congestion zone in the center of Portland might enjoy the benefits of facial recognition in comparison.

Do toll gantries in rural areas of NY also use facial recognition? Or just the city?
Recognition is a software feature, function of image quality. Camera good enough to read the plate should be good enough to read the face, rest is again a subject of good (bad) will.
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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2020, 12:58:29 PM »

I believe the NY toll gantries include facial recognition, and the Wyoming speed camera proposal includes it as well.

I did some Googling. Didn't see anything on Wyoming, but I did find articles about the NY facial recognition system. I had no idea that system had made its way to the US. Still, I'd like to think its use would be reserved for specific areas. I don't believe toll gantries on Oregon's I-205 would include it, for example. Perhaps a congestion zone in the center of Portland might enjoy the benefits of facial recognition in comparison.

Do toll gantries in rural areas of NY also use facial recognition? Or just the city?
The Wyoming one was from the article just posted to the thread for that state on this board.  While the exact phrase "facial recognition" was not used, the article notes that tickets will be sent to the driver, or, if the driver can't be identified, to the registered owner of the vehicle.  I can't imagine that not using some form of facial recognition to accomplish.
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Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2020, 01:03:12 PM »

Recognition is a software feature, function of image quality. Camera good enough to read the plate should be good enough to read the face, rest is again a subject of good (bad) will.

Right, but camera angles designed to read rear license plates, the standard in the US given the sheer number of states that do not require front license plates, naturally cannot see someone's face. Cameras would have to be placed specifically to look at oncoming traffic rather than simply looking at the rear of a vehicle. Placing those cameras requires a bit more than just ignoring good will.

The Wyoming one was from the article just posted to the thread for that state on this board.  While the exact phrase "facial recognition" was not used, the article notes that tickets will be sent to the driver, or, if the driver can't be identified, to the registered owner of the vehicle.  I can't imagine that not using some form of facial recognition to accomplish.

Thanks, I will go take a look. It sounds more like a scare tactic, since Wyoming does not strike me as a state that would be likely to use any sort of facial recognition software to ticket anyone.
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