AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

New rules to ensure post quality. See this thread for details.

Author Topic: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling  (Read 10799 times)

US 89

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 4895
  • 189 to Evanston!

  • Location: Atlanta, GA
  • Last Login: Today at 02:10:13 PM
    • Utah Highways
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2020, 07:42:07 PM »

https://www.oregon.gov/odot/tolling/Documents/2020_0430_ODOT_I-5_I-205_TollProjects_FAQs.pdf

"The Keep Oregon Moving legislation (House Bill 2017) established a Congestion Relief Fund which would receive any net proceeds from tolling. The Oregon Constitution (Article IX, Section 3a) specifies that revenues collected from the use or operation of motor vehicles is spent on roadway projects, which could include construction or reconstruction of travel lanes, as well as bicycle and pedestrian facilities or transit improvements in or along the roadway."

Relevant part highlighted. Given ODOT's track record I find it very hard to believe they would spend toll revenue on projects to benefit auto traffic.

Sub-Urbanite

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 427
  • There's at least a 60% chance I'm just trolling

  • Location: Portland, OR
  • Last Login: May 21, 2022, 05:09:44 PM
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2020, 09:50:04 AM »

https://www.oregon.gov/odot/tolling/Documents/2020_0430_ODOT_I-5_I-205_TollProjects_FAQs.pdf

"The Keep Oregon Moving legislation (House Bill 2017) established a Congestion Relief Fund which would receive any net proceeds from tolling. The Oregon Constitution (Article IX, Section 3a) specifies that revenues collected from the use or operation of motor vehicles is spent on roadway projects, which could include construction or reconstruction of travel lanes, as well as bicycle and pedestrian facilities or transit improvements in or along the roadway."

Relevant part highlighted. Given ODOT's track record I find it very hard to believe they would spend toll revenue on projects to benefit auto traffic.

Hard disagree, if only because they're going to bond out the construction costs of the 205 widening from Stafford to Oregon City and the Abernethy Bridge improvements. Assuming that they've bonded against toll revenue, they'll be legally obligated to use that toll revenue for the bond payments first.

After they've paid down legal obligations, then the fuzzy math can begin.
Logged

stevashe

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 335
  • Age: 26
  • Location: Seattle, WA
  • Last Login: May 16, 2022, 08:52:47 PM
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2020, 05:23:42 PM »

Personally I'd be much more worried about the tracking devices that literally everyone carries around with them in their pockets much more than tolling gantries that might be collecting a few sparse data points that could infer a travel pattern.
Logged

vdeane

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 13099
  • Age: 31
  • Location: NY's Capital District
  • Last Login: Today at 01:10:52 PM
    • New York State Roads
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2020, 08:58:02 PM »

Personally I'd be much more worried about the tracking devices that literally everyone carries around with them in their pockets much more than tolling gantries that might be collecting a few sparse data points that could infer a travel pattern.
Given that the end game for people who advocate tolls is to toll everything (seriously, ideas like expanding tolling on existing interstates and VMT taxes have bipartisan support), it won't remain a few sparse data points forever.  As for phones, one can always turn it off or not take it with them if they're really concerned, the government would have to go to the phone company for info rather than looking into its own records, and I actually have kept location services turned off when not needed during the pandemic (and I might just keep it that way afterwards), which makes it harder to track since then one would have to triangulate the position from cell tower data, which is harder and less precise.
Logged
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Sub-Urbanite

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 427
  • There's at least a 60% chance I'm just trolling

  • Location: Portland, OR
  • Last Login: May 21, 2022, 05:09:44 PM
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2020, 12:01:44 AM »

Personally I'd be much more worried about the tracking devices that literally everyone carries around with them in their pockets much more than tolling gantries that might be collecting a few sparse data points that could infer a travel pattern.
Given that the end game for people who advocate tolls is to toll everything (seriously, ideas like expanding tolling on existing interstates and VMT taxes have bipartisan support), it won't remain a few sparse data points forever.  As for phones, one can always turn it off or not take it with them if they're really concerned, the government would have to go to the phone company for info rather than looking into its own records, and I actually have kept location services turned off when not needed during the pandemic (and I might just keep it that way afterwards), which makes it harder to track since then one would have to triangulate the position from cell tower data, which is harder and less precise.

… just as one can choose to commute by other methods, such as bicycle, bus, foot or even taxi / ride share.

Where you drive just isn't that interesting, except for the purposes of figuring out how much to charge you for road usage.
Logged

kalvado

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 4637
  • Location: upstate NY
  • Last Login: Today at 02:06:59 PM
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #55 on: December 23, 2020, 01:10:23 AM »

Personally I'd be much more worried about the tracking devices that literally everyone carries around with them in their pockets much more than tolling gantries that might be collecting a few sparse data points that could infer a travel pattern.
Given that the end game for people who advocate tolls is to toll everything (seriously, ideas like expanding tolling on existing interstates and VMT taxes have bipartisan support), it won't remain a few sparse data points forever.  As for phones, one can always turn it off or not take it with them if they're really concerned, the government would have to go to the phone company for info rather than looking into its own records, and I actually have kept location services turned off when not needed during the pandemic (and I might just keep it that way afterwards), which makes it harder to track since then one would have to triangulate the position from cell tower data, which is harder and less precise.

… just as one can choose to commute by other methods, such as bicycle, bus, foot or even taxi / ride share.

Where you drive just isn't that interesting, except for the purposes of figuring out how much to charge you for road usage.
"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear!". Any specific reason you're using a nickname, as opposed to a full legal name, on this forum, then?
Logged

vdeane

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 13099
  • Age: 31
  • Location: NY's Capital District
  • Last Login: Today at 01:10:52 PM
    • New York State Roads
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #56 on: December 23, 2020, 04:33:44 PM »

"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear!". Any specific reason you're using a nickname, as opposed to a full legal name, on this forum, then?
Unfortunately, there are now people old enough to vote who weren't even alive in a time when the US government wasn't spying on everyone in violation of the 4th Amendment.
Logged
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2818
  • Location: Los Angeles/OKC
  • Last Login: Today at 12:02:10 PM
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #57 on: October 29, 2021, 04:36:10 PM »

Update:

Quote
Some of the priorities, they say, are to avoid punishing those who drive and to reduce trips overall.

https://www.koin.com/local/multnomah-county/odot-considers-adding-tolls-for-i-205-improvements/

lol to then saying they want to avoid doing exactly what tolling highways does which is making it harder for the working class to drive.
Logged

Sub-Urbanite

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 427
  • There's at least a 60% chance I'm just trolling

  • Location: Portland, OR
  • Last Login: May 21, 2022, 05:09:44 PM
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2021, 12:44:38 PM »

Update:

Quote
Some of the priorities, they say, are to avoid punishing those who drive and to reduce trips overall.

https://www.koin.com/local/multnomah-county/odot-considers-adding-tolls-for-i-205-improvements/

lol to then saying they want to avoid doing exactly what tolling highways does which is making it harder for the working class to drive.

It's worth noting that there are tools that can be used to offer people on a low income discounts on tolling. TriMet already does this; there's no reason ODOT couldn't just line up with TriMet's system and offer discounts on both tolls and fares.
Logged

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2818
  • Location: Los Angeles/OKC
  • Last Login: Today at 12:02:10 PM
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2021, 09:13:03 PM »

Update:

Quote
Some of the priorities, they say, are to avoid punishing those who drive and to reduce trips overall.

https://www.koin.com/local/multnomah-county/odot-considers-adding-tolls-for-i-205-improvements/

lol to then saying they want to avoid doing exactly what tolling highways does which is making it harder for the working class to drive.

It's worth noting that there are tools that can be used to offer people on a low income discounts on tolling. TriMet already does this; there's no reason ODOT couldn't just line up with TriMet's system and offer discounts on both tolls and fares.
Oh geez what a deal the lower income people are getting. A discount on a proposed toll for a road they can currently drive with no toll at all. I’m sure people will be lining up for that.
Logged

Henry

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 7050
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Chicago, IL/Seattle, WA
  • Last Login: May 22, 2022, 10:04:33 AM
    • Henry Watson's Online Freeway
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2021, 10:10:52 AM »

Seems to me that no one on the West Coast cares about highway improvements, and that dates back to the 1960s freeway revolts that took place in Portland, San Francisco, L.A. and Seattle. At least this time that perception may change if tolls are accepted, but don't hold your breath.
Logged
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

kkt

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 6202
  • Location: Seattle, Washington
  • Last Login: Today at 01:54:51 PM
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2021, 12:46:04 PM »

Saying the no one cares about highway improvements on the west coast is a huge overstatement.

I-205 around Portland was completed in 1983.
I-405 around Seattle has been straightened and widened.  The 520 bridge has been widened.
I-5 through Everett has been widened.

S.F. area has seen CA 17 substantially upgraded at every interchange to make I-880, I-680 greatly upgraded, the Carquinez and Benicia bridges have been doubled, the Caldecott Tunnel get an additional bore.

The projects that the freeway revolts rejected were mostly poorly thought out with no consideration for anything except cars, and certainly not for the neighborhoods the proposed freeways would pass through.
Logged

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2818
  • Location: Los Angeles/OKC
  • Last Login: Today at 12:02:10 PM
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2021, 12:48:26 PM »

Yeah I really didn’t understand that post either. SoCal has billions if not tens of billions of dollars for highways to either be reconstructed expanded or both in the near future
Logged

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 14697
  • Transportation Design

  • Age: 26
  • Location: Renton, WA / Vancouver, BC
  • Last Login: Today at 12:58:28 PM
    • Flickr
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2021, 06:18:49 PM »

Shit, Seattle is building two brand new freeways (branded 'expressways' to not scare people?) in decidedly suburban, slightly-urban environments that both require some fairly significant demolition.

You know how often I hear about people revolting against either? So far, not even a peep. In fact, the last meeting I went to, people were looking forward to selling their property.
Logged
Check out my Flickr | Add me on Facebook!

pderocco

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 191
  • Two wrongs don't make a right--but three lefts do.

  • Age: 69
  • Location: El Cajon, CA
  • Last Login: Today at 01:31:17 AM
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #64 on: November 14, 2021, 09:32:44 PM »

Seems to me that no one on the West Coast cares about highway improvements, and that dates back to the 1960s freeway revolts that took place in Portland, San Francisco, L.A. and Seattle. At least this time that perception may change if tolls are accepted, but don't hold your breath.
I moved from Massachusetts to SoCal 21 years ago. They're constantly widening roads around here, and even building some new freeway segments. CA-58 Bakersfield, Mojave, Kramer Junction, and Hinkley; CA-210 east of San Dimas; CA-52 east of CA-125; CA-125 south of CA-94; CA-905; CA-11; CA-78 around Brawley. I'm sure north and central California is the same.

When I go back to visit Boston, it's like a time warp. Cloverleaf interchanges still abound; flyovers are almost unknown outside of the city. They finally widened the middle part of 128 to eight lanes, where I remember everyone driving in the breakdown lanes in rush hour back in 1971. Aside from the Big Dig and a bit of US-44 in Plymouth, what freeways have they built around there?

As to the NW, Washington seems to be a lot more interested in freeway building than Oregon.
Logged
Ciao,
Paul

1

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 11761
  • Age: 23
  • Location: MA/NH border
  • Last Login: Today at 02:10:19 PM
    • Flickr account
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2021, 09:35:43 PM »

Aside from the Big Dig and a bit of US-44 in Plymouth, what freeways have they built around there?

146 Providence-Worcester.

It's really hard to build new freeways or even upgrade interchanges because there's just no space.
Logged
Clinched

Traveled, plus
US ⒔50
MA ⒐2⒉40.9⒐10⒎10⒐1⒒1⒘1⒚14⒈159
NH 27,38,111A(E); CA133; NY366; GA 42,140; FL A1A; CT32; VT 5A; QC 16⒉16⒌263

Flickr: Click the globe under my avatar

Great Lakes Roads

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 701
  • Ain't nobody got time for that!!

  • Age: 22
  • Location: La Porte, Indiana
  • Last Login: Today at 03:41:53 AM
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2021, 11:32:42 PM »

Aside from the Big Dig and a bit of US-44 in Plymouth, what freeways have they built around there?

146 Providence-Worcester.

It's really hard to build new freeways or even upgrade interchanges because there's just no space.

RI 403
Logged

kkt

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 6202
  • Location: Seattle, Washington
  • Last Login: Today at 01:54:51 PM
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2021, 12:48:44 AM »

As to the NW, Washington seems to be a lot more interested in freeway building than Oregon.

Washington says "no" except a few very limited segments, while Oregon says "hell no"   :-D
Logged

Bruce

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4250
  • Transit Commuter

  • Age: 25
  • Location: Snohomish County, WA
  • Last Login: Today at 05:18:22 AM
    • Wikipedia
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2021, 03:04:48 AM »

And some of those limited segments aren't quite that useful (especially for the price). The North Spokane Corridor is a nice big money pit, but we've yet to finish grade separating on SR 522 and SR 18.

skluth

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2050
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Palm Springs, CA
  • Last Login: Today at 10:04:33 AM
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2021, 12:06:51 AM »

I may have missed it in the discussion, but has anyone considered HOT (High-Occupancy Toll) lanes. They seem to be a nice political compromise elsewhere.
Logged

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2818
  • Location: Los Angeles/OKC
  • Last Login: Today at 12:02:10 PM
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2022, 08:01:10 PM »

Is this part of the 205 project? Sorry I’m not too familiar with Oregon. I hope the tolling component isn’t set in stone.

https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/odot-crews-set-to-begin-i-205-improvement-project/55321
Logged

Bruce

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4250
  • Transit Commuter

  • Age: 25
  • Location: Snohomish County, WA
  • Last Login: Today at 05:18:22 AM
    • Wikipedia
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2022, 10:31:11 PM »

Is this part of the 205 project? Sorry I’m not too familiar with Oregon. I hope the tolling component isn’t set in stone.

https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/odot-crews-set-to-begin-i-205-improvement-project/55321

This would be the first phase of the Abernethy Bridge retrofit, which would need to be funded by tolls. No way around that, but luckily it won't impact you.

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2818
  • Location: Los Angeles/OKC
  • Last Login: Today at 12:02:10 PM
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2022, 10:34:25 PM »

Is this part of the 205 project? Sorry I’m not too familiar with Oregon. I hope the tolling component isn’t set in stone.

https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/odot-crews-set-to-begin-i-205-improvement-project/55321

This would be the first phase of the Abernethy Bridge retrofit, which would need to be funded by tolls. No way around that, but luckily it won't impact you.
Have they already started tolling I-205? And it’s irrelevant whether or not it affects me.
Logged

Bruce

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 4250
  • Transit Commuter

  • Age: 25
  • Location: Snohomish County, WA
  • Last Login: Today at 05:18:22 AM
    • Wikipedia
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2022, 10:43:54 PM »

Is this part of the 205 project? Sorry I’m not too familiar with Oregon. I hope the tolling component isn’t set in stone.

https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/odot-crews-set-to-begin-i-205-improvement-project/55321

This would be the first phase of the Abernethy Bridge retrofit, which would need to be funded by tolls. No way around that, but luckily it won't impact you.
Have they already started tolling I-205? And it’s irrelevant whether or not it affects me.

Hasn't reached the environmental assessment phase yet. Tolling could begin as early as late 2024.

Plutonic Panda

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2818
  • Location: Los Angeles/OKC
  • Last Login: Today at 12:02:10 PM
Re: ODOT: ‘Strong opposition’ from public on I-205 tolling
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2022, 10:49:47 PM »

Is this part of the 205 project? Sorry I’m not too familiar with Oregon. I hope the tolling component isn’t set in stone.

https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/odot-crews-set-to-begin-i-205-improvement-project/55321

This would be the first phase of the Abernethy Bridge retrofit, which would need to be funded by tolls. No way around that, but luckily it won't impact you.
Have they already started tolling I-205? And it’s irrelevant whether or not it affects me.

Hasn't reached the environmental assessment phase yet. Tolling could begin as early as late 2024.
Good to know I need to get a refresher on this project. Thanks for the info.
Logged

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.