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Author Topic: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66  (Read 4487 times)

evvroads

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Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« on: June 23, 2021, 12:44:41 AM »

I haven't seen any topics on INDOTs proposed $100 million in "upgrades" to the Lloyd Expressway in Evansville. I use the term "upgrades" extremely loosely, as many of these appear to be, in my opinion, little more than band-aids and half-measures common to INDOT projects in the Evansville area. What do you all think of INDOT's proposals, and the Lloyd in general? I'll add my comments under my description of the proposals.
Project website here: https://thelloyd4u.com/
Actual intersection proposals under the April 2021 "Handout" here: https://thelloyd4u.com/project-documents/

Summary of Changes:

Phase 1 (Rosenberger Ave to Cross Pointe Blvd)
Letting: Fall 2023
Construction Begins: Spring 2024

Cross Pointe Blvd
"Major intersection improvement"
They have two intersection modifications under consideration right now, both involving displaced left turns. The first option would have eastbound Lloyd traffic using a displaced left turn to go north on Cross Pointe. Westbound Lloyd traffic wanting to go south on Cross Pointe would continue west through the intersection and then make a U-turn in the median. Option one would add two stoplights to the Lloyd on the west side of the intersection.

The second option is displaced left turns for both eastbound and westbound traffic turning left onto Cross Pointe Blvd. This option also realigns the I-69 off-ramp to westbound Lloyd and adds a signal-controlled intersection. A total of three stoplights would be added to the Lloyd. One on either side of the intersection and the third east of the intersection at the I-69 off-ramp.

Let me just take this opportunity to express my disdain for INDOT's plan on experimenting with displaced left turns on the Lloyd. In my opinion, the Lloyd carries more traffic than the type of road I think a displaced left turn might actually be a good option for. Between Wabash Ave and Vann Ave, the Lloyd is a limited access highway. INDOT, however, seems intent on making the needed continuation of that limited access highway as difficult as humanly possible. My opinion, and I'm sure the opinion of MANY people in Evansville, is if the "major intersection improvement" on the Lloyd doesn't involve a grade separation or closure/restriction of the access, then don't even waste the money on it. 75% of Cross Pointe Blvd is an open field that's going to be fully developed in the next 10 years and I'm sure it will be in almost the same boat as the Burkhardt intersection. Grade-separate it with a simple diamond or dogbone. That will also eliminate INDOTs concern with westbound traffic crossing 4 lanes of traffic to go south on Cross Pointe also (the reason for their stoplight in the second proposal).

Burkhardt Rd
"Major intersection improvement"
Grade-separated single-point urban interchange! I mean, dual displaced left turn lanes which add two stoplights to the Lloyd on either side of the intersection.

What a complete disappointment. If you asked any Evansvillian (I think that's the term) for their #1 requested road improvement, it would be probably be making this intersection grade-separated. I promise you, regular people in Evansville care about this more than the new Ohio River Crossing. When I heard $100 million in road improvements to the Lloyd, my first guess was making this intersection grade-separated along with a small smattering of other improvements. Evansville is the regional shopping hub, and Christmas time brings a ton of extra traffic from rural southern Indiana, southern Illinois, and western Kentucky to this area of town, and this intersection in particular. I hope I'm wrong, but I forsee a ton of wrong-way drivers and accidents caused by confused people stopping or trying to turn left from the left through lane at the intersection instead of getting over where they should have a quarter mile back.

Stockwell Rd
"Major intersection improvement"
Same as option #1 at the Cross Pointe intersection: Displaced left turn for eastbound Lloyd to northbound Stockwell traffic and median U-turn on the west side of the intersection for westbound Lloyd to southbound Stockwell traffic.

Honestly, Stockwell is one of the intersections on here that I think is over-designed for the amount of traffic it gets. The traffic it gets is mostly people taking the "back way" to Eastland Mall (which has declined over the years), people going to the car dealerships, or cutting up to Morgan Ave to avoid Green River Rd. My proposal for Stockwell is kind of interesting, but I think it would work well. I think they should improve Division St between Vann and Stockwell. Eliminate the light at Stockwell, continue the barrier wall through, and make traffic right-in, right-out only. Add a roundabout on the north side of the intersection for Stockwell/Division/Auto Plaza. Make the Vann Ave intersection a grade-separated diamond or dogbone. Send anyone wanting to go eastbound Lloyd to northbound Stockwell to the Vann intersection and east on Division St. Send people wanting to go southbound Stockwell to eastbound Lloyd the same way. People wanting to go northbound Stockwell to westbound Lloyd will have to go down to Green River and use the intersection to make the U-turn. It'll be an inconvenience for those people, but for the amount of people turning left from Stockwell I don't think it will be a big deal.

Vann Ave
"Minor intersection improvement"
Eliminate stoplight. Connect barrier wall. Make right-in, right-out only.

See my comments on Stockwell Rd. I disagree with making this right-in, right-out. Vann is significantly wider and better for handling the volume of traffic than Boeke is IMO. South Green River is already handling as much traffic as is comfortable a lot of the time, so I disagree that Green River and Boeke will accept the volume from Vann with no issue. There are two 300-foot left turn lanes from northbound Vann to westbound Lloyd, so obviously that's a popular movement. Not to mention the easier hospital access. Vann, Boeke, and Weinbach are all right at 0.5 mile from each other. I think this needs to be a diamond or dogbone also.

Wabash Ave
"Minor intersection improvement"
Eliminate the permissive left turns onto Wabash Ave in favor of restricted left turns. Improves/better synchronizes signal timing with St Joseph Ave. Closes access to Pennsylvania St (the weird eastbound off-ramp just east of the intersection that connects to 9th Ave).

Closing access to Pennsylvania is good, as that's an accident waiting to happen. People that actually use that exit fly through there at the same speed as the Lloyd (about 40). If you're creeping up on northbound Wabash to turn right, you're liable to get absolutely smoked if you're not paying attention. The only reason it's not a bigger issue already is because absolutely no one uses that road. I also think this is a good candidate for eliminating the stoplight and making right-in, right-out only. I know there are some westsiders that disagree, but anybody needing to turn left from eastbound Lloyd can just do so from St. Joe. Same for westbound Lloyd traffic.

Wabash Ave to Rosenberger Ave
Pavement replacement

10th Ave
This isn't on the project documents that I see, but INDOT has posted on Facebook and sent an email questionnaire regarding closing off access to 10th Ave. 10th Ave is currently right-in/right-out for westbound traffic. It is built for right-in/right-out for eastbound also, but there have been barricades chained together blocking that route for several years.

I agree with closing this. There are no right turn lanes, usage is low, other options (St Joe, Wabash) are easy alternatives, and it's a hazard when someone unexpectedly slows from full speed on the Lloyd to try and turn here.

12th Ave
Same deal as 10th Ave. This intersection is currently right-in/right-out for westbound traffic only.

Same opinion as with 10th Ave. Close it.

St Joseph Ave
"Minor intersection improvement"
Grade-separated diamond/dogbone interchange! I mean, reconfigure the southbound St Joseph Ave approach and add a second right turn lane from southbound St Joseph Ave to westbound Lloyd Expy. Improved signal timing with Wabash Ave.

This one just makes me go, "lol what?" Of all the options needed here, a second southbound to westbound right turn lane wasn't one of them. I have no idea why a grade-separated interchange isn't proposed here. The State already owns all of the empty parking lots on the north side of the Lloyd on either side of St Joe here (less the old tire shop on the corner). Presumably, people have been under the impression it's for ROW for a grade-separated intersection.

Barker Ave/Igleheart Ave/Corbierre Ave
"Intersection modification"
Eliminate westbound Lloyd to Igleheart/Barker "loop" ramp. Reconfigure current westbound Lloyd to northbound Barker off-ramp to handle all exiting westbound traffic. Close existing westbound Lloyd to Corbierre Ave (Tekoppel Ave exit) off-ramp and move it west of Ingle Ave. Close Ingle Ave right-in/right-out in for both westbound and eastbound Lloyd.

I actually really like this proposal. My only issue with it is the visibility from that westbound off-ramp is terrible for traffic going north on Barker Ave over the overpass. They might need to make that intersection there a roundabout or something to reduce accidents from people pulling out in front of people flying over the overpass.

Bridge replacements
Over Tekoppel Ave, CSX Railroad tracks, and Carpentier Creek

Rosenberger Ave
"Minor intersection improvement"
Restrict right turn on red with signal modifications, extend turn lanes, and improve westbound Lloyd sight distance.

Not sure what no right turn on red is going to do here. It's a solution to something that isn't broken. The westbound Lloyd to southbound Rosenberger left turn lane is inadequate and hopefully this will fix that. But ultimately: Diamond or dogbone. Hell, this entire intersection is in a large dip in the road anyway (you have to go upgrade to Red Bank and upgrade to go over Tekoppel/CSX).

Phase 2 (Posey County Line Rd to Rosenberger Ave
Letting: Fall 2024
Construction Begins: Fall 2025

Red Bank Rd
"Major intersection improvement"
Dual displaced left turns. Adds two stoplights to the Lloyd on either side of the intersection.

This intersection gets a ton of left-turning traffic from westbound Lloyd onto Red Bank. A grade-separated intersection would be nice here, but the displaced left turns might actually work decent for the time being. This side of town does not have the same amount of traffic or growth as the east side.

Boehne Camp Rd
"Major intersection improvement"
Dual displaced left turns. Adds two stoplights to the Lloyd on either side of the intersection.

Again, this might work decent for this intersection. It might even border on overkill at this point. It gets a lot of through traffic, so anything to maximize that would be best. You know I love grade-separations on the Lloyd, but I just don't think it's needed here yet or for the forseeable future.

Schutte Rd
"Major intersection improvement"
No proposal yet.

Again, a lot of through traffic (USI) and a lot of westbound left-turning traffic (USI Apartments). Grade-separation is overkill here right now, but I don't have a good idea. I will say that the left turn movement for southbound Schutte Rd to eastbound Lloyd needs to be a protected turn. The sight visibility is poor, there is a ton of right-turning traffic (northbound Schutte to eastbound Lloyd), and I feel like I'm going to turn in front of someone every time I go through there.

Posey Co Line Rd to Rosenberger Ave
Pavement Replacement

Another improvement that this would be an excellent time to make is the addition of a third lane between Barker and University Parkway. Especially with the number of stoplights, when USI is in session traffic on the west side can get worse than traffic on the east side, even if the traffic counts are lower. There are wrecks on the stretch between Boehne Camp and USI EVERY DAY when USI is in session. A lot of it could be alleviated by adding extra space with the extra lane. It's not like there are any other viable east/west alternatives for people going from Evansville to USI or Mt Vernon. End the westbound lane as an "exit only" lane for University Pkwy and begin the eastbound lane with the on-ramp from University Pkwy so all the students leaving USI don't have to merge immediately.
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silverback1065

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2021, 12:48:06 AM »

I haven't seen any topics on INDOTs proposed $100 million in "upgrades" to the Lloyd Expressway in Evansville. I use the term "upgrades" extremely loosely, as many of these appear to be, in my opinion, little more than band-aids and half-measures common to INDOT projects in the Evansville area. What do you all think of INDOT's proposals, and the Lloyd in general? I'll add my comments under my description of the proposals.
Project website here: https://thelloyd4u.com/
Actual intersection proposals under the April 2021 "Handout" here: https://thelloyd4u.com/project-documents/

Summary of Changes:

Phase 1 (Rosenberger Ave to Cross Pointe Blvd)
Letting: Fall 2023
Construction Begins: Spring 2024

Cross Pointe Blvd
"Major intersection improvement"
They have two intersection modifications under consideration right now, both involving displaced left turns. The first option would have eastbound Lloyd traffic using a displaced left turn to go north on Cross Pointe. Westbound Lloyd traffic wanting to go south on Cross Pointe would continue west through the intersection and then make a U-turn in the median. Option one would add two stoplights to the Lloyd on the west side of the intersection.

The second option is displaced left turns for both eastbound and westbound traffic turning left onto Cross Pointe Blvd. This option also realigns the I-69 off-ramp to westbound Lloyd and adds a signal-controlled intersection. A total of three stoplights would be added to the Lloyd. One on either side of the intersection and the third east of the intersection at the I-69 off-ramp.

Let me just take this opportunity to express my disdain for INDOT's plan on experimenting with displaced left turns on the Lloyd. In my opinion, the Lloyd carries more traffic than the type of road I think a displaced left turn might actually be a good option for. Between Wabash Ave and Vann Ave, the Lloyd is a limited access highway. INDOT, however, seems intent on making the needed continuation of that limited access highway as difficult as humanly possible. My opinion, and I'm sure the opinion of MANY people in Evansville, is if the "major intersection improvement" on the Lloyd doesn't involve a grade separation or closure/restriction of the access, then don't even waste the money on it. 75% of Cross Pointe Blvd is an open field that's going to be fully developed in the next 10 years and I'm sure it will be in almost the same boat as the Burkhardt intersection. Grade-separate it with a simple diamond or dogbone. That will also eliminate INDOTs concern with westbound traffic crossing 4 lanes of traffic to go south on Cross Pointe also (the reason for their stoplight in the second proposal).

Burkhardt Rd
"Major intersection improvement"
Grade-separated single-point urban interchange! I mean, dual displaced left turn lanes which add two stoplights to the Lloyd on either side of the intersection.

What a complete disappointment. If you asked any Evansvillian (I think that's the term) for their #1 requested road improvement, it would be probably be making this intersection grade-separated. I promise you, regular people in Evansville care about this more than the new Ohio River Crossing. When I heard $100 million in road improvements to the Lloyd, my first guess was making this intersection grade-separated along with a small smattering of other improvements. Evansville is the regional shopping hub, and Christmas time brings a ton of extra traffic from rural southern Indiana, southern Illinois, and western Kentucky to this area of town, and this intersection in particular. I hope I'm wrong, but I forsee a ton of wrong-way drivers and accidents caused by confused people stopping or trying to turn left from the left through lane at the intersection instead of getting over where they should have a quarter mile back.

Stockwell Rd
"Major intersection improvement"
Same as option #1 at the Cross Pointe intersection: Displaced left turn for eastbound Lloyd to northbound Stockwell traffic and median U-turn on the west side of the intersection for westbound Lloyd to southbound Stockwell traffic.

Honestly, Stockwell is one of the intersections on here that I think is over-designed for the amount of traffic it gets. The traffic it gets is mostly people taking the "back way" to Eastland Mall (which has declined over the years), people going to the car dealerships, or cutting up to Morgan Ave to avoid Green River Rd. My proposal for Stockwell is kind of interesting, but I think it would work well. I think they should improve Division St between Vann and Stockwell. Eliminate the light at Stockwell, continue the barrier wall through, and make traffic right-in, right-out only. Add a roundabout on the north side of the intersection for Stockwell/Division/Auto Plaza. Make the Vann Ave intersection a grade-separated diamond or dogbone. Send anyone wanting to go eastbound Lloyd to northbound Stockwell to the Vann intersection and east on Division St. Send people wanting to go southbound Stockwell to eastbound Lloyd the same way. People wanting to go northbound Stockwell to westbound Lloyd will have to go down to Green River and use the intersection to make the U-turn. It'll be an inconvenience for those people, but for the amount of people turning left from Stockwell I don't think it will be a big deal.

Vann Ave
"Minor intersection improvement"
Eliminate stoplight. Connect barrier wall. Make right-in, right-out only.

See my comments on Stockwell Rd. I disagree with making this right-in, right-out. Vann is significantly wider and better for handling the volume of traffic than Boeke is IMO. South Green River is already handling as much traffic as is comfortable a lot of the time, so I disagree that Green River and Boeke will accept the volume from Vann with no issue. There are two 300-foot left turn lanes from northbound Vann to westbound Lloyd, so obviously that's a popular movement. Not to mention the easier hospital access. Vann, Boeke, and Weinbach are all right at 0.5 mile from each other. I think this needs to be a diamond or dogbone also.

Wabash Ave
"Minor intersection improvement"
Eliminate the permissive left turns onto Wabash Ave in favor of restricted left turns. Improves/better synchronizes signal timing with St Joseph Ave. Closes access to Pennsylvania St (the weird eastbound off-ramp just east of the intersection that connects to 9th Ave).

Closing access to Pennsylvania is good, as that's an accident waiting to happen. People that actually use that exit fly through there at the same speed as the Lloyd (about 40). If you're creeping up on northbound Wabash to turn right, you're liable to get absolutely smoked if you're not paying attention. The only reason it's not a bigger issue already is because absolutely no one uses that road. I also think this is a good candidate for eliminating the stoplight and making right-in, right-out only. I know there are some westsiders that disagree, but anybody needing to turn left from eastbound Lloyd can just do so from St. Joe. Same for westbound Lloyd traffic.

Wabash Ave to Rosenberger Ave
Pavement replacement

10th Ave
This isn't on the project documents that I see, but INDOT has posted on Facebook and sent an email questionnaire regarding closing off access to 10th Ave. 10th Ave is currently right-in/right-out for westbound traffic. It is built for right-in/right-out for eastbound also, but there have been barricades chained together blocking that route for several years.

I agree with closing this. There are no right turn lanes, usage is low, other options (St Joe, Wabash) are easy alternatives, and it's a hazard when someone unexpectedly slows from full speed on the Lloyd to try and turn here.

12th Ave
Same deal as 10th Ave. This intersection is currently right-in/right-out for westbound traffic only.

Same opinion as with 10th Ave. Close it.

St Joseph Ave
"Minor intersection improvement"
Grade-separated diamond/dogbone interchange! I mean, reconfigure the southbound St Joseph Ave approach and add a second right turn lane from southbound St Joseph Ave to westbound Lloyd Expy. Improved signal timing with Wabash Ave.

This one just makes me go, "lol what?" Of all the options needed here, a second southbound to westbound right turn lane wasn't one of them. I have no idea why a grade-separated interchange isn't proposed here. The State already owns all of the empty parking lots on the north side of the Lloyd on either side of St Joe here (less the old tire shop on the corner). Presumably, people have been under the impression it's for ROW for a grade-separated intersection.

Barker Ave/Igleheart Ave/Corbierre Ave
"Intersection modification"
Eliminate westbound Lloyd to Igleheart/Barker "loop" ramp. Reconfigure current westbound Lloyd to northbound Barker off-ramp to handle all exiting westbound traffic. Close existing westbound Lloyd to Corbierre Ave (Tekoppel Ave exit) off-ramp and move it west of Ingle Ave. Close Ingle Ave right-in/right-out in for both westbound and eastbound Lloyd.

I actually really like this proposal. My only issue with it is the visibility from that westbound off-ramp is terrible for traffic going north on Barker Ave over the overpass. They might need to make that intersection there a roundabout or something to reduce accidents from people pulling out in front of people flying over the overpass.

Bridge replacements
Over Tekoppel Ave, CSX Railroad tracks, and Carpentier Creek

Rosenberger Ave
"Minor intersection improvement"
Restrict right turn on red with signal modifications, extend turn lanes, and improve westbound Lloyd sight distance.

Not sure what no right turn on red is going to do here. It's a solution to something that isn't broken. The westbound Lloyd to southbound Rosenberger left turn lane is inadequate and hopefully this will fix that. But ultimately: Diamond or dogbone. Hell, this entire intersection is in a large dip in the road anyway (you have to go upgrade to Red Bank and upgrade to go over Tekoppel/CSX).

Phase 2 (Posey County Line Rd to Rosenberger Ave
Letting: Fall 2024
Construction Begins: Fall 2025

Red Bank Rd
"Major intersection improvement"
Dual displaced left turns. Adds two stoplights to the Lloyd on either side of the intersection.

This intersection gets a ton of left-turning traffic from westbound Lloyd onto Red Bank. A grade-separated intersection would be nice here, but the displaced left turns might actually work decent for the time being. This side of town does not have the same amount of traffic or growth as the east side.

Boehne Camp Rd
"Major intersection improvement"
Dual displaced left turns. Adds two stoplights to the Lloyd on either side of the intersection.

Again, this might work decent for this intersection. It might even border on overkill at this point. It gets a lot of through traffic, so anything to maximize that would be best. You know I love grade-separations on the Lloyd, but I just don't think it's needed here yet or for the forseeable future.

Schutte Rd
"Major intersection improvement"
No proposal yet.

Again, a lot of through traffic (USI) and a lot of westbound left-turning traffic (USI Apartments). Grade-separation is overkill here right now, but I don't have a good idea. I will say that the left turn movement for southbound Schutte Rd to eastbound Lloyd needs to be a protected turn. The sight visibility is poor, there is a ton of right-turning traffic (northbound Schutte to eastbound Lloyd), and I feel like I'm going to turn in front of someone every time I go through there.

Posey Co Line Rd to Rosenberger Ave
Pavement Replacement

Another improvement that this would be an excellent time to make is the addition of a third lane between Barker and University Parkway. Especially with the number of stoplights, when USI is in session traffic on the west side can get worse than traffic on the east side, even if the traffic counts are lower. There are wrecks on the stretch between Boehne Camp and USI EVERY DAY when USI is in session. A lot of it could be alleviated by adding extra space with the extra lane. It's not like there are any other viable east/west alternatives for people going from Evansville to USI or Mt Vernon. End the westbound lane as an "exit only" lane for University Pkwy and begin the eastbound lane with the on-ramp from University Pkwy so all the students leaving USI don't have to merge immediately.

"Making the Lloyd work 4 you"  :-D Adding more traffic lights to an already congested corridor should do it!
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 12:53:38 AM by silverback1065 »
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tdindy88

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2021, 09:14:44 AM »

Has there been any big backlash to this idea from the people of Evansville? I feel that if there's enough of an outrage by those who feel an interchange is needed at Burkhardt then INDOT would be forced to back down. It's happened before with the North Split interchange, US 31 in Tipton County and with the several J-turns on US 31 that were never built. Frankly I feel this needs to go back to the drawing board and INDOT needs to propose a proper exit for that intersection. Hell, forget the rest of the damn project, pool your money together and focus on redoing that critical intersection first. The state's good at doing things piecemeal they might as well do it here.

Here's another idea, could Evansville and Vanderburgh County take over the Lloyd Expressway from the state? Maybe the money's not there to do things but I would think that if the city/county were in charge they could do things their way, presumably the state would give some money to the city in exchange for releasing the highway. Of any highway in the state where removing the highway number would have a negligible effect I think the Lloyd Expressway would be near the top of the list. I'm guessing that no one refers to the highway as SR 66 or SR 62 on their various sections of the Lloyd. The state could take over University Parkway and route SR 62 up to Diamond and route the state highways along Diamond, US 41 and Morgan leaving the Lloyd completely in local control. The convoluted routing of the state highways would not be a new thing for Indiana.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 10:01:55 AM by tdindy88 »
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evvroads

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2021, 12:41:56 PM »

Has there been any big backlash to this idea from the people of Evansville? I feel that if there's enough of an outrage by those who feel an interchange is needed at Burkhardt then INDOT would be forced to back down. It's happened before with the North Split interchange, US 31 in Tipton County and with the several J-turns on US 31 that were never built. Frankly I feel this needs to go back to the drawing board and INDOT needs to propose a proper exit for that intersection. Hell, forget the rest of the damn project, pool your money together and focus on redoing that critical intersection first. The state's good at doing things piecemeal they might as well do it here.

Yeah, there has been for sure. Look up TheLloyd4U Facebook page. I say this quite literally: I don't think I've seen a single person who has anything positive to say about the displaced left turn proposal. I know our mayor is good friends with the governor and the lieutenant governor is from Evansville, so thankfully this region has had about as much political pull as it's had in a century over the past few years. I think that's one of the only reasons the Lloyd/41 cloverleaf was actually sent back to the drawing board to be done properly.


Here's another idea, could Evansville and Vanderburgh County take over the Lloyd Expressway from the state? Maybe the money's not there to do things but I would think that if the city/county were in charge they could do things their way, presumably the state would give some money to the city in exchange for releasing the highway. Of any highway in the state where removing the highway number would have a negligible effect I think the Lloyd Expressway would be near the top of the list. I'm guessing that no one refers to the highway as SR 66 or SR 62 on their various sections of the Lloyd. The state could take over University Parkway and route SR 62 up to Diamond and route the state highways along Diamond, US 41 and Morgan leaving the Lloyd completely in local control. The convoluted routing of the state highways would not be a new thing for Indiana.

They could, but I think money is a huge issue. I'm not sure the city has enough revenue to adequately maintain it if they took it over. I would like to see the city take over Morgan Ave and upgrade it to 5 lanes (shared center left turn) between 41 and Green River (where it is then 5 lanes from Green River to I-69, where it then becomes a divided highway).
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Life in Paradise

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2021, 12:51:08 PM »

Has there been any big backlash to this idea from the people of Evansville? I feel that if there's enough of an outrage by those who feel an interchange is needed at Burkhardt then INDOT would be forced to back down. It's happened before with the North Split interchange, US 31 in Tipton County and with the several J-turns on US 31 that were never built. Frankly I feel this needs to go back to the drawing board and INDOT needs to propose a proper exit for that intersection. Hell, forget the rest of the damn project, pool your money together and focus on redoing that critical intersection first. The state's good at doing things piecemeal they might as well do it here.

Here's another idea, could Evansville and Vanderburgh County take over the Lloyd Expressway from the state? Maybe the money's not there to do things but I would think that if the city/county were in charge they could do things their way, presumably the state would give some money to the city in exchange for releasing the highway. Of any highway in the state where removing the highway number would have a negligible effect I think the Lloyd Expressway would be near the top of the list. I'm guessing that no one refers to the highway as SR 66 or SR 62 on their various sections of the Lloyd. The state could take over University Parkway and route SR 62 up to Diamond and route the state highways along Diamond, US 41 and Morgan leaving the Lloyd completely in local control. The convoluted routing of the state highways would not be a new thing for Indiana.
I don't think there's the stomach for the local government to take over the Lloyd Expressway, since they have an idea that it will be expensive to maintain.  That's part of the reason that Evansville still has multiple state highways within its borders; they have not agreed to take possession of them from the state in exchange for ????.  The two local state highways (62 and 66) have a much higher profile locally than the state highways in Fort Wayne or South Bend did.

Switching thoughts, I also had thought about an interchange at Vann Road.  They have the land available except for the State Farm Insurance office and having to move the ball field.  They did complicate matters when they installed the pedestrian overpass.  An interchange should have been thought of when they had to raise the road because someone put the initial road in too low, and allowed it to flood during heavy rains.  For Schutte Road, how about excavating highway 62 quite a bit, allowing Schutte to go over and connect with Peerless, and then have an exit from that?
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royo6022

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2022, 08:37:12 PM »

Was anyone able to attend the live public event regarding this topic today? I was only able to find one video regarding the project from the event today.
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2d Interstates traveled: 4, 10, 15, 39, 40, 44, 57, 64, 65, 66, 68, 69, 70, 71, 74, 75, 76, 78, 79, 80, 81, 88, 90, 94, 95

ibthebigd

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2022, 07:28:57 PM »

Could Roundabout interchanges work at some of these intersections? Like what was done in Carmel?

SM-G996U

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edwaleni

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2022, 11:34:07 AM »

It really comes down to what people expect the Lloyd to be.

Is it a crosstown major arterial so people in Mt Vernon can work in downtown Evansville or heaven forbid, the Alcoa Plant?

Or is it a means for locals to get across the Ohio River going south?
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2022, 01:55:08 PM »

Maybe Evansville should have preserved some land to allow intersections to be replaced by grade-separations or interchanges. Heck, maybe the entire corridor should have been built as a freeway to begin with.
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Life in Paradise

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2022, 01:55:49 PM »

It really comes down to what people expect the Lloyd to be.

Is it a crosstown major arterial so people in Mt Vernon can work in downtown Evansville or heaven forbid, the Alcoa Plant?

Or is it a means for locals to get across the Ohio River going south?
Due to the fact that Evansville was built on a bend in the Ohio River, and there are very limited east/west arteries that truly span from one side to another (actually none outside the Lloyd), the roadway is a major traffic mover, and you can get more cars in motion if you avoid occasionally stopping them at traffic lights, has to be a major arterial.  One other factor that you missed is that it is the main depositor of vehicles to and from a 10,000+ university, the University of Southern Indiana that pulls students (on campus and commuters from 50 miles in each direction).

It is sad that they are going to spend $100 million on the project, and lessen some of the problems rather than work on correcting some issues that were known 30 years ago, and people asked for them to be avoided (ie-Burkhart overpass).  So far there has been a reworking of that Burkhart exit, replacement of the Green River Road overpass (because they wanted to try out a newer intersection option), lifting up of road between Vann and Boeke (due to flooding), full cloverleaf at US41 and overpass at Fulton.  Only the latter two solved traffic problems (other than avoiding flooded cars). 
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evvroads

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2022, 12:00:26 AM »

Could Roundabout interchanges work at some of these intersections? Like what was done in Carmel?

SM-G996U

On the Lloyd? Definitely not. The Lloyd at Burkhardt sees 45k cars a day. Burkhardt itself sees 26k a day north of the Lloyd. That's way too much traffic for a roundabout. You don't see roundabouts on Keystone Pkwy or US 31.
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evvroads

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2022, 12:43:01 AM »

Was anyone able to attend the live public event regarding this topic today? I was only able to find one video regarding the project from the event today.

I didn't, but I watched a live stream of it.

Of note that I don't remember seeing in the original diagrams: It looks like they are going to 6-lane the Lloyd from Barker (where it currently changes from 6 to 4) to Rosenberger when they do the pavement replacement. They haven't officially announced their plans for the "phase 2" (Rosenberger to Posey Co Line) portion, but it also includes pavement replacement so it's highly probable they will 6-lane at least a portion of that also. Hopefully to University Pkwy. It wouldn't make sense to 6-lane it to Rosenberger and leave it there. Even Red Bank Rd would make more sense than ending the 6-lane at Rosenberger.
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silverback1065

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2022, 10:54:55 AM »

Could Roundabout interchanges work at some of these intersections? Like what was done in Carmel?

SM-G996U

On the Lloyd? Definitely not. The Lloyd at Burkhardt sees 45k cars a day. Burkhardt itself sees 26k a day north of the Lloyd. That's way too much traffic for a roundabout. You don't see roundabouts on Keystone Pkwy or US 31.

Never say never on the side roads. they could do roundabout interchanges there where Lloyd bridges over (or dives under) the teardrop roundabouts. In Fishers Allisonville and 96th will be an at grade roundabout and both roads get 21k+ cars a day. I could see this working better than the displaced lefts i heard they were proposing there in the past.
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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2022, 11:05:55 AM »

The Lloyd should be limited access from USI on the west side all the way to I-69 on the east side.

Everything else can keep that 4 lane w/median and local access, west to Mt. Vernon and east to the Alcoa Plant.

I agree with the premise that due to Evansville's proximity to the bend in the Ohio, its needs a significant E/W arterial.
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evvroads

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2022, 02:37:56 PM »

Could Roundabout interchanges work at some of these intersections? Like what was done in Carmel?

SM-G996U

On the Lloyd? Definitely not. The Lloyd at Burkhardt sees 45k cars a day. Burkhardt itself sees 26k a day north of the Lloyd. That's way too much traffic for a roundabout. You don't see roundabouts on Keystone Pkwy or US 31.

Never say never on the side roads. they could do roundabout interchanges there where Lloyd bridges over (or dives under) the teardrop roundabouts. In Fishers Allisonville and 96th will be an at grade roundabout and both roads get 21k+ cars a day. I could see this working better than the displaced lefts i heard they were proposing there in the past.

Yeah, that's totally fair. Frankly, I think roundabouts would work better than a lot of the intersections they have on the side roads. The intersections on Barker Ave on either side of the overpass over the Lloyd are perfect candidates for roundabouts IMO due to the poor visibility when looking for cross traffic over the overpass. I interpreted the original question as asking about roundabouts on the Lloyd, which I completely disagree with.
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evvroads

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2022, 02:42:28 PM »

The Lloyd should be limited access from USI on the west side all the way to I-69 on the east side.

Everything else can keep that 4 lane w/median and local access, west to Mt. Vernon and east to the Alcoa Plant.

I agree with the premise that due to Evansville's proximity to the bend in the Ohio, its needs a significant E/W arterial.

I agree, but would expand that to be from USI to SR 261 in Warrick Co. Development between I-69 and Bell Rd along Lloyd/SR 66 is exploding in Warrick County and I don't think there will be any real difference between "Evansville" and "Warrick County" when driving down the Lloyd in the next 15-20 years, if it even takes that long.
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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2022, 08:16:45 PM »

It is an absolute waste of $100 million not to mention the years of traffic disruption to have something not any better than before. Pure insanity.

If you want to blow $100 mil on the Lloyd, I would suggest building as many overpasses as you can with it, and leave the rest alone.

How much would it cost to build overpasses at Burkhart, Vann and St. Joe?

Overpass Burkhart and make Cross Point right turns in and out only, with adequate frontage roads to Burkhart.  Same for the Fielding Road light, remove and replace with right turns only, with frontage to either Burkhart or Green River.

Overpass Vann, and remove light at Congress, and again, right turns only with frontage down to Vann and or Green River.

Overpass St. Joe, and build frontage to Wabash, where again, only right turns are allowed.

I would have to think you could get that done close to the price tag this will entail, and certainly provide better traffic flow than this idiotic design. 
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evvroads

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2022, 04:08:26 AM »

It is an absolute waste of $100 million not to mention the years of traffic disruption to have something not any better than before. Pure insanity.

If you want to blow $100 mil on the Lloyd, I would suggest building as many overpasses as you can with it, and leave the rest alone.

How much would it cost to build overpasses at Burkhart, Vann and St. Joe?

Overpass Burkhart and make Cross Point right turns in and out only, with adequate frontage roads to Burkhart.  Same for the Fielding Road light, remove and replace with right turns only, with frontage to either Burkhart or Green River.

Overpass Vann, and remove light at Congress, and again, right turns only with frontage down to Vann and or Green River.

Overpass St. Joe, and build frontage to Wabash, where again, only right turns are allowed.

I would have to think you could get that done close to the price tag this will entail, and certainly provide better traffic flow than this idiotic design.

I'm pretty much with you. One thing that is especially irking me is INDOT's excuse of "Oh well you guys developed too much around Lloyd/Burkhardt so now an overpass is not an option because it would be too disruptive to current businesses." Looking at Lloyd/Green River, those on/off ramps are basically road, curb, parking lot with no real buffer (which is fine). Google measures the distance from curb to curb across Lloyd at Green River as about 220 ft. Curb to curb at Burkhardt is 225-270 ft depending on where you measure. There is plenty of room to put the same type of overpass/interchange at Lloyd/Burkhardt as there is at Lloyd/Green River. The only ROW acquisitions would be the unused grassy area between the parking lot of these businesses and the Lloyd.

I think Lloyd/Fulton was about $35-40 million 10-15 years ago. So you could realistically probably get 1 overpass and some other random improvements with that $100m.

One thing I think is interesting is that St Joe and Wabash are the only major intersections that they don't seem to be doing much at all on. The State owns all of the parking lots on the north side of Lloyd/St Joe with the exception of the former Tornatta Tire lot, so I wonder if they don't have a bigger project in mind for the St Joe and Wabash intersections later on down the line.
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silverback1065

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2022, 10:52:01 AM »

It is an absolute waste of $100 million not to mention the years of traffic disruption to have something not any better than before. Pure insanity.

If you want to blow $100 mil on the Lloyd, I would suggest building as many overpasses as you can with it, and leave the rest alone.

How much would it cost to build overpasses at Burkhart, Vann and St. Joe?

Overpass Burkhart and make Cross Point right turns in and out only, with adequate frontage roads to Burkhart.  Same for the Fielding Road light, remove and replace with right turns only, with frontage to either Burkhart or Green River.

Overpass Vann, and remove light at Congress, and again, right turns only with frontage down to Vann and or Green River.

Overpass St. Joe, and build frontage to Wabash, where again, only right turns are allowed.

I would have to think you could get that done close to the price tag this will entail, and certainly provide better traffic flow than this idiotic design.

I'm pretty much with you. One thing that is especially irking me is INDOT's excuse of "Oh well you guys developed too much around Lloyd/Burkhardt so now an overpass is not an option because it would be too disruptive to current businesses." Looking at Lloyd/Green River, those on/off ramps are basically road, curb, parking lot with no real buffer (which is fine). Google measures the distance from curb to curb across Lloyd at Green River as about 220 ft. Curb to curb at Burkhardt is 225-270 ft depending on where you measure. There is plenty of room to put the same type of overpass/interchange at Lloyd/Burkhardt as there is at Lloyd/Green River. The only ROW acquisitions would be the unused grassy area between the parking lot of these businesses and the Lloyd.

I think Lloyd/Fulton was about $35-40 million 10-15 years ago. So you could realistically probably get 1 overpass and some other random improvements with that $100m.

One thing I think is interesting is that St Joe and Wabash are the only major intersections that they don't seem to be doing much at all on. The State owns all of the parking lots on the north side of Lloyd/St Joe with the exception of the former Tornatta Tire lot, so I wonder if they don't have a bigger project in mind for the St Joe and Wabash intersections later on down the line.

I take that statement by INDOT as an excuse to not spend more money on it. "disrupting businesses" sucks but the current config is already doing that with people avoiding the area! a couple months of disruption for years of good traffic is worth it.
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edwaleni

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2022, 12:15:39 AM »

My 2 cents.

West to East:

- Remove access for Corbierre and Ingels. Dead end them at the expressway. Make them drive the 2.5 blocks to Barker.
- Take part of the Mead-Johnson parking lot on the north side of the road. Create a frontage road.
- Raise the Lloyd over St Josephs Street and place an urban style exit ramp that goes underneath the expressway.
- Remove the 10th, 11th and 12th Avenue access completely.
- Lose the grass median in the Mead-Johnson area.
- Keep the Lloyd elevated over Flagg and remove all access there. They can drive the 3 blocks to St Josephs to interchange. This will keep Flagg open to Ohio Street for pass through and fire safety.
- Elevate the Lloyd over Vann Avenue and make it an urban style ramps
- Remove Park Avenue Access. Park goers can use Vann to reach going forward. (2 blocks away)
- Place frontage roads in from Vann back to Stockwell Road and remove all Stockwell Road access to Lloyd.
- Bridge Fielding Road over the Lloyd and connect with Indiana Street, acquire and tear down closed Mitsubishi dealership. Force all Fielding traffic to go down to Green River to access Lloyd.
- Remove Brentwood access on both sides.
- Dead End Kimber Lane.
- Elevate the Lloyd over Burkhardt and put an urban style exit facility in
- Remove the strip mall entrance on north side and put in a frontage road that will serve as Indiana Ave. and provide connectivity with Burkhardt. (and give strip mall users a choice to access Lloyd)
- Elevate Lloyd over Cross Pointe and create urban style exit facility. Will serve as east entrance to same strip mall/retail center.

Most of these local streets that were allowed to keep their connectivity with the Lloyd seem to be the problem. Many of them dump directly into the right lane to merge.

Just getting rid of those would allow the speed limits to rise. I can't see people complaining because they have a major access to the Lloyd less than 3 blocks away in each case. And if it is more than 3 blocks a frontage road is put in.

If they still complain, then they really don't want the Lloyd to be better than it is today.

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2022, 08:45:33 PM »

My 2 cents.

West to East:

- Remove access for Corbierre and Ingels. Dead end them at the expressway. Make them drive the 2.5 blocks to Barker.
- Take part of the Mead-Johnson parking lot on the north side of the road. Create a frontage road.
- Raise the Lloyd over St Josephs Street and place an urban style exit ramp that goes underneath the expressway.
- Remove the 10th, 11th and 12th Avenue access completely.
- Lose the grass median in the Mead-Johnson area.
- Keep the Lloyd elevated over Flagg and remove all access there. They can drive the 3 blocks to St Josephs to interchange. This will keep Flagg open to Ohio Street for pass through and fire safety.
- Elevate the Lloyd over Vann Avenue and make it an urban style ramps
- Remove Park Avenue Access. Park goers can use Vann to reach going forward. (2 blocks away)
- Place frontage roads in from Vann back to Stockwell Road and remove all Stockwell Road access to Lloyd.
- Bridge Fielding Road over the Lloyd and connect with Indiana Street, acquire and tear down closed Mitsubishi dealership. Force all Fielding traffic to go down to Green River to access Lloyd.
- Remove Brentwood access on both sides.
- Dead End Kimber Lane.
- Elevate the Lloyd over Burkhardt and put an urban style exit facility in
- Remove the strip mall entrance on north side and put in a frontage road that will serve as Indiana Ave. and provide connectivity with Burkhardt. (and give strip mall users a choice to access Lloyd)
- Elevate Lloyd over Cross Pointe and create urban style exit facility. Will serve as east entrance to same strip mall/retail center.

Most of these local streets that were allowed to keep their connectivity with the Lloyd seem to be the problem. Many of them dump directly into the right lane to merge.

Just getting rid of those would allow the speed limits to rise. I can't see people complaining because they have a major access to the Lloyd less than 3 blocks away in each case. And if it is more than 3 blocks a frontage road is put in.

If they still complain, then they really don't want the Lloyd to be better than it is today.

There is really no excuse for the lack of development on an interchange near St Joseph with the amount of space they already have. The empty space already looks bad and could be used to greatly reduce the congestion in the area. City would need to provide easier parking for events like the fall fest, should Wabash Ave. be shut out (which I agree with). My issue is mainly with Stockwell. I work very near the Morgan Ave. end of Stockwell and can speak from experience that it can get very busy during the day. I think Stockwell will need a double connection to Green River and to Vann Avenue in order to suffice for the amount of traffic moving through there during peak daytime hours.
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jnewkirk77

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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2022, 01:06:18 PM »

My 2 cents.

West to East:

- Remove access for Corbierre and Ingels. Dead end them at the expressway. Make them drive the 2.5 blocks to Barker.
- Take part of the Mead-Johnson parking lot on the north side of the road. Create a frontage road.
- Raise the Lloyd over St Josephs Street and place an urban style exit ramp that goes underneath the expressway.
- Remove the 10th, 11th and 12th Avenue access completely.
- Lose the grass median in the Mead-Johnson area.
- Keep the Lloyd elevated over Flagg and remove all access there. They can drive the 3 blocks to St Josephs to interchange. This will keep Flagg open to Ohio Street for pass through and fire safety.
- Elevate the Lloyd over Vann Avenue and make it an urban style ramps
- Remove Park Avenue Access. Park goers can use Vann to reach going forward. (2 blocks away)
- Place frontage roads in from Vann back to Stockwell Road and remove all Stockwell Road access to Lloyd.
- Bridge Fielding Road over the Lloyd and connect with Indiana Street, acquire and tear down closed Mitsubishi dealership. Force all Fielding traffic to go down to Green River to access Lloyd.
- Remove Brentwood access on both sides.
- Dead End Kimber Lane.
- Elevate the Lloyd over Burkhardt and put an urban style exit facility in
- Remove the strip mall entrance on north side and put in a frontage road that will serve as Indiana Ave. and provide connectivity with Burkhardt. (and give strip mall users a choice to access Lloyd)
- Elevate Lloyd over Cross Pointe and create urban style exit facility. Will serve as east entrance to same strip mall/retail center.

Most of these local streets that were allowed to keep their connectivity with the Lloyd seem to be the problem. Many of them dump directly into the right lane to merge.

Just getting rid of those would allow the speed limits to rise. I can't see people complaining because they have a major access to the Lloyd less than 3 blocks away in each case. And if it is more than 3 blocks a frontage road is put in.

If they still complain, then they really don't want the Lloyd to be better than it is today.

There is really no excuse for the lack of development on an interchange near St Joseph with the amount of space they already have. The empty space already looks bad and could be used to greatly reduce the congestion in the area. City would need to provide easier parking for events like the fall fest, should Wabash Ave. be shut out (which I agree with). My issue is mainly with Stockwell. I work very near the Morgan Ave. end of Stockwell and can speak from experience that it can get very busy during the day. I think Stockwell will need a double connection to Green River and to Vann Avenue in order to suffice for the amount of traffic moving through there during peak daytime hours.

The history of the development of the Lloyd Expressway is littered with stupid decisions and boneheaded planning. How many other highway projects in Indiana took 36 years from start to finish?  Construction of the "West Side Expressway" began in 1952, it opened in '56, and the remainder opened in '88.  And it's basically been under construction on some segment or another most years since then.

It'd be funny if it wasn't so damned stupid.  More money will be wasted again because the "fixes" don't work.  Just watch and see.
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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2022, 03:47:39 PM »

 :bigass:
How many other highway projects in Indiana took 36 years from start to finish?

I-69? :bigass:
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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2022, 11:36:59 PM »

:bigass:
How many other highway projects in Indiana took 36 years from start to finish?

I-69? :bigass:

I'm talking from start of construction to finish. Should've been more specific.

The Lloyd - started construction in 1952, finished in 1988.
I-69 Evansville-Indy - started construction in 2008, will finish in 2024. That's only 16 years.
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Re: Lloyd Expressway/IN-62/IN-66
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2022, 07:12:34 PM »

Never say never on the side roads. they could do roundabout interchanges there where Lloyd bridges over (or dives under) the teardrop roundabouts. In Fishers Allisonville and 96th will be an at grade roundabout and both roads get 21k+ cars a day. I could see this working better than the displaced lefts i heard they were proposing there in the past.
I know this is off-topic for this particular thread, but this is the first I've heard of any proposal to change the current 96th & Allisonville "Michigan Left" intersection at the border of Indianapolis & Fishers. Can you point me to a thread discussing this topic or a website for it? I live less than half a mile from there and occasionally traverse it as a pedestrian. Thanks in advance!
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