I-376 to be Extended...Eventually

[PAHighways]

PennDOT has announced that later this year, the Interstate 376 designation will finally be extended.  While it was expected around New Year's Day, Dan Cessna says that contracts will be awarded in Allegheny County to bring it up to standards and that will allow the Department of Transportation to apply for the designation extension this Spring.  However, signage might not change until next year.

http://www.timesonline.com/articles/2009/02/18/news/doc499cab6897c36904400377.txt

[Added post icon. -S.]

[FLRoads]

So I guess we get to say goodbye to Interstate 279 then? Hmmm...

If PennDOT wanted to have this part of PA 60 designated an interstate highway, fine, but why must it be an extension of Interstate 376? So I guess the country is about to have two odd 3di's that touch their parent interstate in two places (I-520 in GA and SC being the other). This just helps the theory that the federal government can no longer create new interstate numbers, just extend old ones...

[mightyace]

So, now we'll have a spur interstate that connects twice with its parent.

The east end meets up with I-76/PA TPK at Exit 57 (Monroeville) and it will cross I-76/TPK at Exit 10 before ending at I-80's Exit 4.

So, south of I-76 exit 10, it will be more like an even-numbered 3di (276, 476, 676) and north of that like an odd-numbered  3di (176, 376).

I don't think I-376 quite fits the new routing.  But, then again you have I-476 at the other end of the state as another hybrid loop/spur route and the infamous I-99.

Plus, I can't think of an I-xxx numbering that would work better.

Any ideas?

(I see flaroadgeek just posted with a similar message.)

[mightyace]

So I guess we get to say goodbye to Interstate 279 then? Hmmm...

There would still be the section of I-279 from exit 72 on I-79 south toward downtown and the I-376 junction.

[FLRoads]

Exactly. Yet another 3di interstate truncated and replaced, this time by another 3di!! All I have to say is insane. Once again I agree with Mightyace, this extension should be an even 3di. It could easily be an even I-x79, I-x80 or even have I-876, but not I-376.

[mightyace]

Actually, I was trying to say that I don't like either an even or odd 3di for this route, but an even 3di would be less objectionable to me.

Two other goofy thing about this proposed routing.

First is that the proposed longer I-376 runs basically east-west on its current alignment and out to the Pittsburgh airport.  After that, it is basically north-south.  Will they try to shoehorn one set of cardinal directions on it (like Pittsburgh's current I-279 N/S or I-180 E/W near Williamsport) or will they have it switch directional orientation like many beltways do.

Second, the middle section of this route is a toll road.  How are they going to get away with that?

[PAHighways]

They could have resurrected I-876.  I guess PennDOT figures why redesignate the Parkway East a fourth time.

Frankly I think the extension is ridiculous which I mentioned in a blog entry three years ago when the plan was announced, and proven by the Beaver County Commissioner's statement.

[FLRoads]

Actually, I was trying to say that I don't like either an even or odd 3di for this route, but an even 3di would be less objectionable to me.

I apologize for that. I've got too many things going on at the moment and really only glanced at what you had written before. Sorry about that 

[Alex]

How about Pennsylvania 376 west of Interstate 79 and Interstate 376 east of Interstate 79? *ducks* 

[FLRoads]

Or they could just leave it as it is so Interstate 279 doesn't have to get truncated and Interstate 376 still serves as a spur route into Pittsburgh from the east...

[treichard]

Anyone got an exit number list for I-376 and I-279 for after the extension?

[mightyace]

I did some googling last night and answered my own questions.

Two other goofy thing about this proposed routing.

First is that the proposed longer I-376 runs basically east-west on its current alignment and out to the Pittsburgh airport.  After that, it is basically north-south.  Will they try to shoehorn one set of cardinal directions on it (like Pittsburgh's current I-279 N/S or I-180 E/W near Williamsport) or will they have it switch directional orientation like many beltways do.

According to Wikipedia, the highway will be signed east-west from the airport through Pittsburgh to Monroeville and north-south from the I-80 through New Castle to the airport.

Second, the middle section of this route is a toll road.  How are they going to get away with that?

Well, like I-99, the I-376 designation was set via Congressional legislation.

[mightyace]

Anyone got an exit number list for I-376 and I-279 for after the extension?

The exit list is easy.  I think that PAHighways probably has most of that already on existing freeway pages.

The rub lies in the mileage numbering.  The standard convention is for mileage to start at 0 at the south end of a north-south highway and at the west end of an east-west highway.  With the split N/S and E/W signing (see post above), these 0 points come at the airport where the direction changes.

I doubt that even PennDOT is stupid enough to have two numbering for one highway unless they leave up the existing exit numbers! 

This means that if the 0 mile is at I-80, the N/S section will be numbered in the wrong direction but the east-west part through Pittsburgh will be OK.  Conversely, if the 0 mile is at I-76 in Monroeville, the east-west section will be wrong and the north-south section will be OK.

[Revive 755]

I think the extension should and I-376 should be renumbered as another I-280.  Or maybe number the part west of I-79 as I-79W.  Or extend PA 576 north along PA 60, with PA 60 between I-79 and Turnpike 576 becoming a westward extension of I-279.

[PAHighways]

Anyone got an exit number list for I-376 and I-279 for after the extension?

The exit list is easy.  I think that PAHighways probably has most of that already on existing freeway pages.

I have the current numbers but won't update the new numbers until they physically change.

[Sykotyk]

I live nearby, and the arguments for I-376 are the complete opposite the arguments here.

The two main reasons for the renumbering were to:

A) Put the airport on an interstate, rather than PA-60.

B) To give one direct route # to the airport from Monroeville.

Previously, you'd take I-376 to I-279 South, to US22/US30 West, to PA-60 North. Without ever exiting the highway. Adding more new numbers doesn't solve that problem. Therefore, whatever number goes from downtown to I-79, had to continue to the airport.

There's no sense ending it at the airport when there's still more freeway for it to travel to I-80. Also, if you just throw a new number on, from Monroeville, you still have three different numbers for the same highway.

I-279 wouldn't make sense, as it would never reconnect with I-279 to form a true complete loop. And without renumbering the current I-376 portion, it made sense to simply extend it through downtown, through the Fort Pitt Tunnels along I-279 (the Parkway West), and out to the airport and beyond.

In a sense, it still is a spur. The fact it crosses its parent at another point is irrelevant.

At least this way, the Parkway East and Parkway West will both be on an east-west route (which I presume it will be labeled). Telling people I-279 south is 'west' and I-279 North is 'east' is not easy, just as is explaining the I-376/I-279/US20-30/PA60 dilemma.

Sykotyk

[PAHighways]

I mention the airport reason as well in my blog entry.  Former US Representative Melissa Hart once said, "We have the only international airport not served by an Interstate" but forgot that right outside the nation's capital is one not served by an Interstate.  I doubt that was one of the reasons USAirways de-hubbed PIA.

Leaving the airport, there are two options: Beaver/Moon and Pittsburgh. If one follows the signs for Pittsburgh, and don't take any exits, you'll end up in downtown no matter what the designation.

[Duke87]

So, that would make I-376 over 80 miles long. Another 3di longer than I-97.

The numbering would be a bit goofy but then again it would be hard to make it not goofy given its nature. You could just make the new portion a new number (479?), but then you'd have a highway just spontaneously changing numbers upon crossing I-79 and while that might make the numbering fit the convention a bit better it would be far more confusing to motorists.

Personally, I think continuity in designation is more important than convention compliance in designation. If it's the same continuous highway, it shouldn't have two different numbers for different parts of it.

As for the exit numbers, considering that the N/S portion would be longer than the E/W portion, presumably you'd put the 0 milepost over on the east side of Pittsburgh and number it from south to north.

[pippin2424]

Make the entire route  a 3d 79 or 80 and it would work better...or  extend 279 the entire new route and leave 376 where it is currently.

[jackson1300]

...or just create I-980 or I-979 that runs from I-80 and ends at the current I-79/279/US-22/30 (Parkway West) interchange and leave the current I-279 be.

[leifvanderwall]

I think the mistake made here was that PA 60 should be a 3di interstate with I-79 being the parent. US 22 from Monroeville to Harrisburg should be a I-78 western extension and signing I-78 through downtown Pittsburgh would phase out I-376 and make PA 60 turn into I-379. The most important interstate corridor that doesn't exist is I-78 and it is even more important than the new I-73/74 corridor in the south.

[Truvelo]

So the ancient signs on PA 60 near New Castle will finally bite the dust?

[akotchi]

From PAHighways:
I mention the airport reason as well in my blog entry.  Former US Representative Melissa Hart once said, "We have the only international airport not served by an Interstate" but forgot that right outside the nation's capital is one not served by an Interstate.  I doubt that was one of the reasons USAirways de-hubbed PIA.

This isn't even the only one in her state not served by an Interstate.  Harrisburg's airport is accessible from PA 283 and a connector spur.

[PAHighways]

So the ancient signs on PA 60 near New Castle will finally bite the dust?

Yes those "factory originals" will be replaced.  Work will begin this fall to rehab interchanges on 60 between Beaver and Mercer Counties, and part of the project includes upgrading signage.

[J N Winkler]

I think the relevant contract is SR 0060 Section B28 (ECMS 76610).  It has 122 sheets of signing plans but (cue long gusty sigh) whoever plotted them failed to make sure the CAD program had access to the Clearview fonts.