I was looking over another thread in the General Area regarding Control Cities which got me thinking of a broader subject as it relates to Evansville. It seems to me the city was traditionally neglected as it relates to highway routing and construction.
I-64 seems to be a prime example of that argument as originally it was supposed to be routed through Vincennes (approximately 50 miles north of town). The compromise was reached and the route was pushed south to serve the city (but still 10 miles north of the city limits).
I often wonder how things could have been different if the I-64 would have played a more prominent role within the city and been routed either directly on top of the US 460 corridor or SR 62/66 (later to become the Lloyd Expressway). Other cities of similar size or smaller in this area of the country feature urban interstates, but not only was EVV left out in that regard, I-64 was so far north of town Evansville didn't even rank Control City status.
I do believe things have slowly been rectified with I-164 (now I-69), and various state highway upgrades. Still the question remains. Thoughts from the road community?
I definitely think it's true, but I also think Evansville has been ignored by the state in general. It is a little weird that 64 wasn't put through Evansville proper.
Evansville has a character that is a little different from the rest of Indiana. However, it is certainly not Southern in character either. I would think that maybe if I-64 was routed further south that maybe Evansville may have had a little more to it.
Quote from: mspanner442 on July 25, 2016, 03:24:32 PM
I was looking over another thread in the General Area regarding Control Cities which got me thinking of a broader subject as it relates to Evansville. It seems to me the city was traditionally neglected as it relates to highway routing and construction.
I-64 seems to be a prime example of that argument as originally it was supposed to be routed through Vincennes (approximately 50 miles north of town). The compromise was reached and the route was pushed south to serve the city (but still 10 miles north of the city limits).
I often wonder how things could have been different if the I-64 would have played a more prominent role within the city and been routed either directly on top of the US 460 corridor or SR 62/66 (later to become the Lloyd Expressway). Other cities of similar size or smaller in this area of the country feature urban interstates, but not only was EVV left out in that regard, I-64 was so far north of town Evansville didn't even rank Control City status.
I do believe things have slowly been rectified with I-164 (now I-69), and various state highway upgrades. Still the question remains. Thoughts from the road community?
The flip side is that if I-64 had gone through Vincennes, Evansville could have fared worse.
I do think Evansville was shortchanged a bit - similar to the way Cedar Rapids and Waterloo, Iowa were. Now, As it stands today, I think it is in very good shape thanks to I-69 which essentially provides efficient connections to every direction. I would say it will certainly have better intercity connections than Fort Wayne and Lafayette once the new bridge is built. In addition, Evansville has a freeway going through its downtown, and it has good system of surface roads.
Although I am a resident of central Indiana, I would say Northwest Indiana has historically been the most shortchanged part of the state when it comes to roads. It is not a lack of freeways there, but the fact that they are over-capacity and the roads in general are in the worst shape up there.
As for the character of the city, it is a bit different than the rest of Indiana. It reminds me more of Oklahoma, but in reality, it probably just has aspects of "regular" Indiana and Western Kentucky - as you would expect from its location.
Quote from: mukade on July 25, 2016, 06:18:41 PM
Quote from: mspanner442 on July 25, 2016, 03:24:32 PM
I was looking over another thread in the General Area regarding Control Cities which got me thinking of a broader subject as it relates to Evansville. It seems to me the city was traditionally neglected as it relates to highway routing and construction.
I-64 seems to be a prime example of that argument as originally it was supposed to be routed through Vincennes (approximately 50 miles north of town). The compromise was reached and the route was pushed south to serve the city (but still 10 miles north of the city limits).
I often wonder how things could have been different if the I-64 would have played a more prominent role within the city and been routed either directly on top of the US 460 corridor or SR 62/66 (later to become the Lloyd Expressway). Other cities of similar size or smaller in this area of the country feature urban interstates, but not only was EVV left out in that regard, I-64 was so far north of town Evansville didn't even rank Control City status.
I do believe things have slowly been rectified with I-164 (now I-69), and various state highway upgrades. Still the question remains. Thoughts from the road community?
The flip side is that if I-64 had gone through Vincennes, Evansville could have fared worse.
I do think Evansville was shortchanged a bit - similar to the way Cedar Rapids and Waterloo, Iowa were. Now, As it stands today, I think it is in very good shape thanks to I-69 which essentially provides efficient connections to every direction. I would say it will certainly have better intercity connections than Fort Wayne and Lafayette once the new bridge is built. In addition, Evansville has a freeway going through its downtown, and it has good system of surface roads.
Although I am a resident of central Indiana, I would say Northwest Indiana has historically been the most shortchanged part of the state when it comes to roads. It is not a lack of freeways there, but the fact that they are over-capacity and the roads in general are in the worst shape up there.
As for the character of the city, it is a bit different than the rest of Indiana. It reminds me more of Oklahoma, but in reality, it probably just has aspects of "regular" Indiana and Western Kentucky - as you would expect from its location.
I would definitely agree with you about NW Indiana as well. It's interesting how a lot of Indiana residents view Evansville as weird or a place to forget in the state. I've lived in central Indiana my whole live and never been there, it seems like a cool city though. 69 will really help the city once it's complete.
Driving up US 41/SR 63/US 41 is a good alternative to get to Chicago from Nashville. However, you are correct about NW Indiana. There is a lack of arterial and collector routes once you start into Lake County near Chicagoland.
Quote from: mukade on July 25, 2016, 06:18:41 PM
I do think Evansville was shortchanged a bit - similar to the way Cedar Rapids and Waterloo, Iowa were.
As for Evansville being shortchanged, I would say yes since construction of I-164 seems to have been delayed many years after I-64 was completed (someone correct me if I'm wrong), and since they didn't get a north-south interstate until recently. If Evansville was not getting shortchanged, I would have expected Indiana to have been fighting for years to get an interstate along the US 41 corridor.
But as to being shortchanged with the location of I-64, I would say no. Per Wikipedia, the population of Evansville was only 128,636 in 1950 and 141,543 in 1960 - enough population IMHO to at least justify a spur off of I-64, but not enough to justify adding a decent sized dip in I-64 - which I think would become more justifiable if the population back then had been around 300,000 or if Owensboro had been around the same size as Evansville.
EDIT: And at least Evansville got a spur route off the nearby interstate; it is more than Muncie got - which would have been easier to put on a mainline interstate without adding much out of the way travel.
Evansville has had mixed up leaders in the past decades, especially when US 41 went from a two lane through town to a 6/4 lane route. More limited access was waived by city leaders in the 1970s since they wanted stop lights so travelers could easily get off of the new road and drive to downtown. (How did that work out for them??)
-----------
One of the routes for I-164 was to terminate at IN 66 and then travel what is now the Lloyd Expressway to US 41 and then go south, but they didn't believe that they would have the funds to make it freeway style to the KY border. Another potential route was to travel down then US 460 (now IN 66 west of Evansville), but that didn't go too far.
Well I would say that the US 41 that runs through Evansville now gives them folks stopping and shopping, dining, and gassing up. I don't think many through travelers veer off to I-69 former (I-164) to I-64 back to US 41.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 27, 2016, 10:47:19 PM
Well I would say that the US 41 that runs through Evansville now gives them folks stopping and shopping, dining, and gassing up. I don't think many through travelers veer off to I-69 former (I-164) to I-64 back to US 41.
I can't imagine why anyone who is driving through would not take 69-64 as a bypass to 41. It is only 5-6 miles longer, and has to save at least 15 minutes, probably more during peak times.
I "feel" like I am going out of the way using that routing. When I get on I-64 WB I feel like I am not in the right place. I would say that not too many folks read a map anymore anyway and just let GPS lead them on.
Interesting conversation..I will add my two cents worth.
I used to think so, however, after traveling around Indiana in more depth the last few years, I realize Evansville is currently as good if not better off than just about anywhere else in Indiana, except Indianapolis. Like others have mentioned, no one else has an "expressway" linking opposite sides of the city through the central business area. The Lloyd is far from perfect, but it certainly beats US 27 in Ft. Wayne or US 31 in South Bend as the city's major cross town thoroughfare. Evansville is also the only city outside of Indy served by two interstates.
With that said, there is no question Evansville has been short-shafted in the past. There are two specific instances I can think of.
1. The US Highway System. Evansville has never had more than (1) principal US Highway. Yes, 460 served the city for many years, but it was more of a secondary route. Most through traffic from Louisville to St. Louis bypassed the city completely, utilizing IN SR 64 and IL SR 14 instead. It has always seemed odd that there was never an Evansville - Indianapolis US Highway. Either a 3-di of 41 or 31, or a US 39 stretching from at least Evansville to Ft. Wayne.
2. The initial Interstate System. I-64 is certainly questionable. It seems odd there was a dogfight with Vincennes to begin with. Once that route was selected, it should have been moved farther south to actually benefit Evansville traffic on a daily basis. Either running across the Diamond Ave area, or even where the current Lloyd is now. Sure would have save millions in building the Lloyd in the 80's, and it would have been done correctly. Also would have been much more beneficial to Henderson and Owensboro.
However, I think the biggest screwing with the interstates was not including the US 41 Chicago-Nashville route. This was a very heavily used route prior to the interstates, and is still the direct route between Chicago and Florida. I think Indiana was asleep at this time, and Illinois was able to pull it over onto I-57. This route is really useless, and was nothing more than a 300 mile St. Louis bypass in it's current form. I think Illinois would have been better served with I-39 continuing south and following US 51. Anyone from Chicago wanting to go to Southern Illinois could easily follow I-55 to Bloomington then head south on I-39.
Instead of fighting over I-64, Evansville and Vincennes, along with Terre Haute, Henderson, Hopkinsville etc should have been working together to insure this route was included. If this route was included, there really wouldn't have been a need for both I-65 and I-74 running north from Indy. I-74 could have been moved a few miles closer to Lafayette, and Indy-Chicago traffic using this and the 41 route. Similar to what they did prior to the interstates. I-65 then could have been routed straight north from Indy, continuing along US 31, and serving South Bend. If Indiana was going to insist on I-65 going to Chicago instead, it should have at least been angled a little farther Northwest, and actually serve US 41 traffic as it enters Lake County.
Few are aware that once the I-64 fight was over, that I-24 was originally proposed to follow US 41 from Nashville to Evansville, connecting with I-64. At the time, Kentucky had a powerful highway commissioner named Henry Ward, who just happened to be from Paducah. Ward got Indiana to drop the Evansville routing by promising to build a parkway along this route.
With all of this, I would put most of the blame for these shortfalls on the local officials in Evansville during this period, especially the late 50's and 60's. The mayor was a big machine mayor, whose efforts appeared to be concentrated on rewarding his minions with jobs, rather the overall vision of the city. The only instances where I can find city leaders actually pushing INDOT was the city engineer at that time, who appeared to be waging a one man war with them over elevating the new US 41. The mayor seemed rather indifferent to it, and of course, the substandard highway was eventually built. He also oversaw the cheapening of the civic center complex, which in it's final version, blocked off the primary commerce street into the downtown area. He also pushed for the now dead ended Main Street to be closed off to traffic, further strangling the downtown area. There also seems to be very little cooperation from the city leaders at that time with neighboring cities. The current leadership appears much more progressive, and works very well with regional cities for the common good, especially with Henderson. On the other hand, I think we are still seeing that same kind of machine isolation approach in Owensboro. Mayor Payne seems to be a one man wrecking band, who has zero concern for anything outside of the US 60 Bypass.
Quote from: Captain Jack on August 06, 2016, 01:15:07 PM
Interesting conversation..I will add my two cents worth.
I used to think so, however, after traveling around Indiana in more depth the last few years, I realize Evansville is currently as good if not better off than just about anywhere else in Indiana, except Indianapolis. Like others have mentioned, no one else has an "expressway" linking opposite sides of the city through the central business area. The Lloyd is far from perfect, but it certainly beats US 27 in Ft. Wayne or US 31 in South Bend as the city's major cross town thoroughfare. Evansville is also the only city outside of Indy served by two interstates.
With that said, there is no question Evansville has been short-shafted in the past. There are two specific instances I can think of.
1. The US Highway System. Evansville has never had more than (1) principal US Highway. Yes, 460 served the city for many years, but it was more of a secondary route. Most through traffic from Louisville to St. Louis bypassed the city completely, utilizing IN SR 64 and IL SR 14 instead. It has always seemed odd that there was never an Evansville - Indianapolis US Highway. Either a 3-di of 41 or 31, or a US 39 stretching from at least Evansville to Ft. Wayne.
2. The initial Interstate System. I-64 is certainly questionable. It seems odd there was a dogfight with Vincennes to begin with. Once that route was selected, it should have been moved farther south to actually benefit Evansville traffic on a daily basis. Either running across the Diamond Ave area, or even where the current Lloyd is now. Sure would have save millions in building the Lloyd in the 80's, and it would have been done correctly. Also would have been much more beneficial to Henderson and Owensboro.
However, I think the biggest screwing with the interstates was not including the US 41 Chicago-Nashville route. This was a very heavily used route prior to the interstates, and is still the direct route between Chicago and Florida. I think Indiana was asleep at this time, and Illinois was able to pull it over onto I-57. This route is really useless, and was nothing more than a 300 mile St. Louis bypass in it's current form. I think Illinois would have been better served with I-39 continuing south and following US 51. Anyone from Chicago wanting to go to Southern Illinois could easily follow I-55 to Bloomington then head south on I-39.
Instead of fighting over I-64, Evansville and Vincennes, along with Terre Haute, Henderson, Hopkinsville etc should have been working together to insure this route was included. If this route was included, there really wouldn't have been a need for both I-65 and I-74 running north from Indy. I-74 could have been moved a few miles closer to Lafayette, and Indy-Chicago traffic using this and the 41 route. Similar to what they did prior to the interstates. I-65 then could have been routed straight north from Indy, continuing along US 31, and serving South Bend. If Indiana was going to insist on I-65 going to Chicago instead, it should have at least been angled a little farther Northwest, and actually serve US 41 traffic as it enters Lake County.
Few are aware that once the I-64 fight was over, that I-24 was originally proposed to follow US 41 from Nashville to Evansville, connecting with I-64. At the time, Kentucky had a powerful highway commissioner named Henry Ward, who just happened to be from Paducah. Ward got Indiana to drop the Evansville routing by promising to build a parkway along this route.
With all of this, I would put most of the blame for these shortfalls on the local officials in Evansville during this period, especially the late 50's and 60's. The mayor was a big machine mayor, whose efforts appeared to be concentrated on rewarding his minions with jobs, rather the overall vision of the city. The only instances where I can find city leaders actually pushing INDOT was the city engineer at that time, who appeared to be waging a one man war with them over elevating the new US 41. The mayor seemed rather indifferent to it, and of course, the substandard highway was eventually built. He also oversaw the cheapening of the civic center complex, which in it's final version, blocked off the primary commerce street into the downtown area. He also pushed for the now dead ended Main Street to be closed off to traffic, further strangling the downtown area. There also seems to be very little cooperation from the city leaders at that time with neighboring cities. The current leadership appears much more progressive, and works very well with regional cities for the common good, especially with Henderson. On the other hand, I think we are still seeing that same kind of machine isolation approach in Owensboro. Mayor Payne seems to be a one man wrecking band, who has zero concern for anything outside of the US 60 Bypass.
I honestly don't understand how Vincennes could ever have justified an interstate, has it ever been even close to the same size, population count, or importance of e-ville? I wonder what evansville would look like if 69 went on 41 and 64 used the lloyd.
Quote from: Captain Jack on August 05, 2016, 12:52:11 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 27, 2016, 10:47:19 PM
Well I would say that the US 41 that runs through Evansville now gives them folks stopping and shopping, dining, and gassing up. I don't think many through travelers veer off to I-69 former (I-164) to I-64 back to US 41.
I can't imagine why anyone who is driving through would not take 69-64 as a bypass to 41. It is only 5-6 miles longer, and has to save at least 15 minutes, probably more during peak times.
Google has using US 41 from just south of I-69 to just north of I-64 as 22 minutes and 16.7 miles, with the interstate bypass route being 24 minutes but 26.2 miles. Using Google Maps, I count at least 18 traffic signals and 3 at grade railroad crossings on US 41. The interstate bypass option would certainly win for reliability Depending how well those 18 signals are timed, they could easily take longer to get through than driving 10 more miles at 60 mph.
Quote from: Captain Jack on August 06, 2016, 01:15:07 PM
I used to think so, however, after traveling around Indiana in more depth the last few years, I realize Evansville is currently as good if not better off than just about anywhere else in Indiana, except Indianapolis. Like others have mentioned, no one else has an "expressway" linking opposite sides of the city through the central business area. The Lloyd is far from perfect, but it certainly beats US 27 in Ft. Wayne or US 31 in South Bend as the city's major cross town thoroughfare. Evansville is also the only city outside of Indy served by two interstates.
Did Gary secretly join Illinois?
Quote from: Captain Jack on August 06, 2016, 01:15:07 PM2. The initial Interstate System. I-64 is certainly questionable. It seems odd there was a dogfight with Vincennes to begin with.
There were larger along US 50 in Illinois east of I-57 than there were along where I-64 is today. US 50 had Flora (population of 5,331 in 1960); Onley (8,780 in 1960); Lawrenceville (5,492 in 1960); I-64's current route has Mills Shoals (322 in 1960) and Grayville (2,280 in 1960).
Quote from: Captain Jack on August 06, 2016, 01:15:07 PMOnce that route was selected, it should have been moved farther south to actually benefit Evansville traffic on a daily basis. Either running across the Diamond Ave area, or even where the current Lloyd is now. Sure would have save millions in building the Lloyd in the 80's, and it would have been done correctly. Also would have been much more beneficial to Henderson and Owensboro.
And added how many miles for long distance through traffic, much less a larger cost for building I-64?
Quote from: Captain Jack on August 06, 2016, 01:15:07 PMHowever, I think the biggest screwing with the interstates was not including the US 41 Chicago-Nashville route. This was a very heavily used route prior to the interstates, and is still the direct route between Chicago and Florida. I think Indiana was asleep at this time, and Illinois was able to pull it over onto I-57. This route is really useless, and was nothing more than a 300 mile St. Louis bypass in it's current form.
Kankakee, Rantoul, Champaign-Urbana, and several other towns in Illinois would likely share my objections to having I-57 being referred to as "useless". Additionally, many of the early interstate plans (see here (http://www.roadfan.com/intreg.html) and here (http://www.ajfroggie.com/roads/yellowbook/)) had today's I-57 as the main north-south route from Chicago, with today's I-55 corridor only going as far as St. Louis.
Quote from: Captain Jack on August 06, 2016, 01:15:07 PMI think Illinois would have been better served with I-39 continuing south and following US 51. Anyone from Chicago wanting to go to Southern Illinois could easily follow I-55 to Bloomington then head south on I-39.
Which would probably make I-55 another corridor in need of six laning but not getting it, as well as making it harder to get the Champaign-Urbana.
Quote from: Captain Jack on August 06, 2016, 01:15:07 PMInstead of fighting over I-64, Evansville and Vincennes, along with Terre Haute, Henderson, Hopkinsville etc should have been working together to insure this route was included. If this route was included, there really wouldn't have been a need for both I-65 and I-74 running north from Indy. I-74 could have been moved a few miles closer to Lafayette, and Indy-Chicago traffic using this and the 41 route.
Lafayette is not really in line with a Peoria-Champaign-Danville-Indianapolis corridor. Plus I-65 has enough traffic already between Indianapolis and Lafayette and doesn't need to have another interstate's worth added.
Quote from: Captain Jack on August 06, 2016, 01:15:07 PMSimilar to what they did prior to the interstates. I-65 then could have been routed straight north from Indy, continuing along US 31, and serving South Bend. If Indiana was going to insist on I-65 going to Chicago instead, it should have at least been angled a little farther Northwest, and actually serve US 41 traffic as it enters Lake County.
While there are early interstate planning maps that show today's I-65 going west towards Hammond or eventually angling over and following the US 41 corridor northward, I'm not seeing a US 31 corridor interstate on them.
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 06, 2016, 11:58:38 PM
Did Gary secretly join Illinois?
We are talking about parts of Indiana (I mean Gary) that get historically neglected. At least Hoosiers don't want to pretend that Evansville isn't a part of their state.
I do wonder though, I-64 as I see it is a St. Louis to Louisville interstate. What would the route be like if the interstate was routed down through Evansville (along the Lloyd corridor.) The highway would have had to gone even further south in Illinois, curving to the south to reach Evansville before heading back slightly northeast toward Louisville and then there is the Ohio River, which would have made a straight route in that direction impossible. It can't be a coincidence that the northernmost bend of the Ohio River (from Posey County east to New Albany) stops about a couple of miles to the south of Interstate 64.
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 06, 2016, 11:58:38 PM
Did Gary secretly join Illinois?
Might as well. Northwestern Indiana seems to feel perpetually neglected by Indianapolis. The Central Time folks just don't have much of a central focus. I don't blame them.
Quote from: Captain Jack on August 06, 2016, 01:15:07 PM2. The initial Interstate System. I-64 is certainly questionable. It seems odd there was a dogfight with Vincennes to begin with.
Somewhere in this forum, someone posted the "History of the Interstate System in Indiana (http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2257&context=jtrp)," produced by Purdue in the 70's. I found it enthralling, especially with its depiction of the history of I-64. But it talks about this fight between Vincennes and Evansville, and it was not just simply a matter of size or some wealthy corporate weight-swinging. There was a period where I-64 was shown on commercial maps as following US 50, so it was certainly a strong consideration.
I mean, maybe you guys know that publication really well, but, if not, it's definitely worth a couple of hours of reading if you're interested in how routings were determined.
I mean, when I lived in Bloomington, I preferred US 50 as a route to St. Louis over 46 to 70. It was more interesting and, after 69 was completed to US 231, it took about the same amount of time, even with the congested jog in Lebanon.
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 06, 2016, 11:58:38 PM
as well as making it harder to get the Champaign-Urbana.
And I think that's one of the big reasons I-57 exists. There's always been a tremendous amount of vehicle traffic between Chicagoland and Chambana. Those rich parents from the suburbs don't want to have to roll through Rantoul or Gilman on surface streets.
geez don't even get me started on the Gary area. Indiana thinks that part of the state doesn't exist at all, and it's embarrassing. People talk about Detroit being bad, look at Gary it's honestly sad how neglected that area is by all politicians.
Quote from: tdindy88 on August 07, 2016, 01:00:32 AM
I do wonder though, I-64 as I see it is a St. Louis to Louisville interstate. What would the route be like if the interstate was routed down through Evansville (along the Lloyd corridor.)
Here are a few rough alignments showing how an routing into Evansville could have affected I-64: Link (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1P_1XtVoOyP4WceP8mQVfdXn1F3I&usp=sharing)
Wasn't Indiana weird in the US-highway era too? No US route between Indy and Fort Wayne. No direct US route between Chicago area and Indy, and US-52 on that diagonal. (And a lot of that was the because of the path of the old trails, Dixie Highway and Lincoln Highway, et al.)
Quote from: GaryV on August 07, 2016, 05:18:54 PM
No direct US route between Chicago area and Indy, and US-52 on that diagonal.
Huh? 52 to 41 was the direct route.
Quote from: NE2 on August 07, 2016, 05:52:22 PM
Quote from: GaryV on August 07, 2016, 05:18:54 PM
No direct US route between Chicago area and Indy, and US-52 on that diagonal.
Huh? 52 to 41 was the direct route.
OK, that is pretty direct. I meant via a single route. Neither 52 nor 41 in themselves went through, not the way most larger cities that close together were connected by a single route.
I've always wondered why there wasn't a US highway from e-ville to Indy, it's even weirder that there isn't one from Indy to Ft. Wayne, I never noticed that one. I also don't get the hate toward E-ville from the rest of the state.
Quote from: GaryV on August 07, 2016, 06:54:12 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 07, 2016, 05:52:22 PM
Quote from: GaryV on August 07, 2016, 05:18:54 PM
No direct US route between Chicago area and Indy, and US-52 on that diagonal.
Huh? 52 to 41 was the direct route.
OK, that is pretty direct. I meant via a single route. Neither 52 nor 41 in themselves went through, not the way most larger cities that close together were connected by a single route.
Chicago to Peoria? Los Angeles to Las Vegas? Chattanooga to Louisville? Wilmington to Washington? Back in my day, drivers were able to follow more than one number.
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 07, 2016, 07:01:23 PM
I've always wondered why there wasn't a US highway from e-ville to Indy, it's even weirder that there isn't one from Indy to Ft. Wayne, I never noticed that one. I also don't get the hate toward E-ville from the rest of the state.
I am not sure there is any "hate" towards Evansville from the rest of the state, probably more of a case of indifference...at least that is what I typically get when I am in other parts of Indiana. There are a few towns in the state that always get a negative response when they are brought up..I don't think that is the case with Evansville. The indifference does seem to be a two way street as this area seems more aligned with Louisville, St. Louis and even Nashville than Indy. Probably a lot to do with transportation. I think that may change on both sides once 69 gets finished.
For a city of its size in its part of the world, Evansville is doing very well economically. Its growth seems moderate and sustainable. It has its share of social problems–poverty correlates excessively to race here like it does everywhere, opioids are running rampant, etc.–but it seems like community structures are good. Tons of new commercial development, and the downtown that didn't have an Interstate run through it is now becoming a desirable location again (albeit slowly).
It also makes absolutely no sense that the state never made at least a state highway go straight to Evansville from Indy. Why didn't 37 go straight to Evansville as a divided highway?
Quote from: Captain Jack on August 08, 2016, 02:03:37 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 07, 2016, 07:01:23 PM
I've always wondered why there wasn't a US highway from e-ville to Indy, it's even weirder that there isn't one from Indy to Ft. Wayne, I never noticed that one. I also don't get the hate toward E-ville from the rest of the state.
I am not sure there is any "hate" towards Evansville from the rest of the state, probably more of a case of indifference...at least that is what I typically get when I am in other parts of Indiana. There are a few towns in the state that always get a negative response when they are brought up..I don't think that is the case with Evansville. The indifference does seem to be a two way street as this area seems more aligned with Louisville, St. Louis and even Nashville than Indy. Probably a lot to do with transportation. I think that may change on both sides once 69 gets finished.
Nasville, TN is closer to Evansville, IN than is Indianapolis. Since Nashville is a tourist town and also a trasportation and distribution center it would make sense that their is more of alignment of Evansville to Nashville.
Once I-69 is complete between Evansville and Indianapolis, it will only take about 2.5 hours to get from one to the other. Nashville and Evansville are about 2.5 hours apart also. Louisville, is less than 2 hours via I-64.
Quote from: coatimundi on August 07, 2016, 01:02:32 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 06, 2016, 11:58:38 PM
Did Gary secretly join Illinois?
Might as well. Northwestern Indiana seems to feel perpetually neglected by Indianapolis. The Central Time folks just don't have much of a central focus. I don't blame them.
Quote from: Captain Jack on August 06, 2016, 01:15:07 PM2. The initial Interstate System. I-64 is certainly questionable. It seems odd there was a dogfight with Vincennes to begin with.
Somewhere in this forum, someone posted the "History of the Interstate System in Indiana (http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2257&context=jtrp)," produced by Purdue in the 70's. I found it enthralling, especially with its depiction of the history of I-64. But it talks about this fight between Vincennes and Evansville, and it was not just simply a matter of size or some wealthy corporate weight-swinging. There was a period where I-64 was shown on commercial maps as following US 50, so it was certainly a strong consideration.
I mean, maybe you guys know that publication really well, but, if not, it's definitely worth a couple of hours of reading if you're interested in how routings were determined.
I mean, when I lived in Bloomington, I preferred US 50 as a route to St. Louis over 46 to 70. It was more interesting and, after 69 was completed to US 231, it took about the same amount of time, even with the congested jog in Lebanon.
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 06, 2016, 11:58:38 PM
as well as making it harder to get the Champaign-Urbana.
And I think that's one of the big reasons I-57 exists. There's always been a tremendous amount of vehicle traffic between Chicagoland and Chambana. Those rich parents from the suburbs don't want to have to roll through Rantoul or Gilman on surface streets.
that link was absolute gold! i've been looking for history books talking about the reason why the interstate are they way they are now.
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 11, 2016, 02:35:29 PM
Quote from: coatimundi on August 07, 2016, 01:02:32 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 06, 2016, 11:58:38 PM
Did Gary secretly join Illinois?
Might as well. Northwestern Indiana seems to feel perpetually neglected by Indianapolis. The Central Time folks just don't have much of a central focus. I don't blame them.
Quote from: Captain Jack on August 06, 2016, 01:15:07 PM2. The initial Interstate System. I-64 is certainly questionable. It seems odd there was a dogfight with Vincennes to begin with.
Somewhere in this forum, someone posted the "History of the Interstate System in Indiana (http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2257&context=jtrp)," produced by Purdue in the 70's. I found it enthralling, especially with its depiction of the history of I-64. But it talks about this fight between Vincennes and Evansville, and it was not just simply a matter of size or some wealthy corporate weight-swinging. There was a period where I-64 was shown on commercial maps as following US 50, so it was certainly a strong consideration.
I mean, maybe you guys know that publication really well, but, if not, it's definitely worth a couple of hours of reading if you're interested in how routings were determined.
I mean, when I lived in Bloomington, I preferred US 50 as a route to St. Louis over 46 to 70. It was more interesting and, after 69 was completed to US 231, it took about the same amount of time, even with the congested jog in Lebanon.
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 06, 2016, 11:58:38 PM
as well as making it harder to get the Champaign-Urbana.
And I think that's one of the big reasons I-57 exists. There's always been a tremendous amount of vehicle traffic between Chicagoland and Chambana. Those rich parents from the suburbs don't want to have to roll through Rantoul or Gilman on surface streets.
that link was absolute gold! i've been looking for history books talking about the reason why the interstate are they way they are now.
:thumbsup: I've already read that dissertation, and it's fascinating to learn a lot of the reasons why the interstates were routed where they were, why exits and overpasses were built or not built, and even the reasoning for the order in which they were built. It was especially interesting for someone who lives in Indiana, but the ideas apply anywhere.
Evansville has been relatively disconnected from the rest of Indiana since the Civil War. It is the only Ohio River city in Indiana, culturally more connected to Kentucky, Little Egypt and St. Louis than Chicago, Cincinnati, or Indianapolis. They eat brain sandwiches, for god's sake! With only US 41 as the major auto route of the city for about 2/3 or the 20th Century, and no mainline railroads to speak of, the Pocket City has long been off the beaten path, except the odd route between Nashville and Chicago.
Culturally, it's an interesting mix of upper South, German Catholic, Irish, and African-American, with no major recent immigrant groups to speak of. It's conservative, blue Dog Democrat at best, and like Fort Wayne and Indianapolis, it lacks a university proportionate with its size. It has several strengths - retail, manufacturing, but the city is one of those small invisible metros that does fine but wont be a destination outside of its region.
It's not hated or despised or anything by other Hoosiers; this part of the state sees itself as quintessentially Hoosier, with high school basketball , and Indiana University always a destination for local graduates. It's coal, basketball, and church country; Evansville strikes me as a big town inside a constellation of small cities like can oddly feel more urban than Evansville - Vincennes, Jasper, Owensboro, Washington, etc, perhaps because Evansville is the defacto city for NW Kentucky.
It's always been interesting to me that within the scope of the planning convolutions of I-24 northwest of Nashville, an option wasn't forwarded that would have (a) routed I-64 along US 460 through Evansville and (b) simply taken the I-24 route up US 41A/41 out of Nashville all the way up to Evansville. This would have provided a reasonably simple route between St. Louis and Nashville (albeit one that might have warranted an odd rather than even number) and would have been able to take advantage of the then-nascent KY expressway system, which IIRC was in the planning stages about the same time the initial Interstate network was being finalized. Paducah would have whined a bit, but otherwise such a plan would likely have worked out (and avoided a few of the issues endemic to the region that were partially addressed by the rerouting of I-64 in the early '60's).
Quote from: sparker on October 17, 2017, 04:48:08 PM
It's always been interesting to me that within the scope of the planning convolutions of I-24 northwest of Nashville, an option wasn't forwarded that would have (a) routed I-64 along US 460 through Evansville and (b) simply taken the I-24 route up US 41A/41 out of Nashville all the way up to Evansville. This would have provided a reasonably simple route between St. Louis and Nashville (albeit one that might have warranted an odd rather than even number) and would have been able to take advantage of the then-nascent KY expressway system, which IIRC was in the planning stages about the same time the initial Interstate network was being finalized. Paducah would have whined a bit, but otherwise such a plan would likely have worked out (and avoided a few of the issues endemic to the region that were partially addressed by the rerouting of I-64 in the early '60's).
there was a fight over where to put 64, vincennes for some reason thought they should get it over evansville. they ended up putting it where it is now. i wish they put it along the lloyd through town. or at least keep us 460 and end it at 41. I've never gotten had a good answer to the question of "Why wasn't there ever a highway connection between Indy and Eville?"
Quote from: sparker on October 17, 2017, 04:48:08 PM
It's always been interesting to me that within the scope of the planning convolutions of I-24 northwest of Nashville, an option wasn't forwarded that would have (a) routed I-64 along US 460 through Evansville and (b) simply taken the I-24 route up US 41A/41 out of Nashville all the way up to Evansville. This would have provided a reasonably simple route between St. Louis and Nashville (albeit one that might have warranted an odd rather than even number) and would have been able to take advantage of the then-nascent KY expressway system, which IIRC was in the planning stages about the same time the initial Interstate network was being finalized.
I thought I read somewhere that Evansville did try to get I-24 routed their way, but it was denied for some really ridiculous reason?
I remember reading in the local newspaper at sometime, perhaps in the early 70's that there were several options reviewed for what became I-164 (now labeled I-69) around Evansville. One of those was coming in from the NW and joining the then four lane "Diamond Avenue Expressway" into town. I can't remember for sure if they were going to loop through town or what, but that was cut down because of the cost. The next option was to come down the current roadbed and then shoot down the "Lloyd Expressway" (IN-66) and then go south on US 41. This was also shot down due to the cost since the Lloyd Expressway would have to be traffic lightless for a couple of miles, and US 41 would have to be made an urban expressway and raised up. It was just cheaper to go around all the subdivisions and meet back with US 41.
SW Indiana has been ignored for quite awhile, but I would have to say it has been given much more attention in the past few decades. As Indiana goes, SW Indiana is just not as highly populated as other parts of the state, and with our hills and such, it's more expensive to build roads compared to the flat north.
I thought the major at the time shot down the idea of having us 41 become an interstate. does anyone have any cool old maps of these proposed highways?
Going through the Courier and Press archives on the EVPL site, there was a serious push to get I-24 routed along US 41 from Nashville to Evansville. This heated up considerably when the southern route for I-64 was selected.
Indiana was pushing hard, and it appears it would have happened had it not been for one man, Henry Ward. Ward was a political heavyweight in Kentucky, and was a Paducah native. During this time he also was the State Highway Commissioner. He swung the route to Paducah, and threw Evansville-Henderson a bone in the Pennyrile Parkway. In the article announcing the decision in 1961, Ward was quoted with the promise that US 41 would be replaced with a modern, 4-lane highway in the very near future. He appears to have been true to his word, as the Pennyrile went from the drawing board to completion in under a 5 year period. A time-frame unheard of today.
An interesting side note from Wards obituary. He was credited with routing I-65 through downtown Louisville and later referred to that as a mistake.
Quote from: Captain Jack on October 20, 2017, 12:43:20 AM
Going through the Courier and Press archives on the EVPL site, there was a serious push to get I-24 routed along US 41 from Nashville to Evansville. This heated up considerably when the southern route for I-64 was selected.
Indiana was pushing hard, and it appears it would have happened had it not been for one man, Henry Ward. Ward was a political heavyweight in Kentucky, and was a Paducah native. During this time he also was the State Highway Commissioner. He swung the route to Paducah, and threw Evansville-Henderson a bone in the Pennyrile Parkway. In the article announcing the decision in 1961, Ward was quoted with the promise that US 41 would be replaced with a modern, 4-lane highway in the very near future. He appears to have been true to his word, as the Pennyrile went from the drawing board to completion in under a 5 year period. A time-frame unheard of today.
An interesting side note from Wards obituary. He was credited with routing I-65 through downtown Louisville and later referred to that as a mistake.
Wow a city of 25k deserves an interstate over a city with 121k, i assume the population differences were about the same back then too.
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 20, 2017, 12:09:51 PM
Quote from: Captain Jack on October 20, 2017, 12:43:20 AM
Going through the Courier and Press archives on the EVPL site, there was a serious push to get I-24 routed along US 41 from Nashville to Evansville. This heated up considerably when the southern route for I-64 was selected.
Indiana was pushing hard, and it appears it would have happened had it not been for one man, Henry Ward. Ward was a political heavyweight in Kentucky, and was a Paducah native. During this time he also was the State Highway Commissioner. He swung the route to Paducah, and threw Evansville-Henderson a bone in the Pennyrile Parkway. In the article announcing the decision in 1961, Ward was quoted with the promise that US 41 would be replaced with a modern, 4-lane highway in the very near future. He appears to have been true to his word, as the Pennyrile went from the drawing board to completion in under a 5 year period. A time-frame unheard of today.
An interesting side note from Wards obituary. He was credited with routing I-65 through downtown Louisville and later referred to that as a mistake.
Wow a city of 25k deserves an interstate over a city with 121k, i assume the population differences were about the same back then too.
Even with the high level of corridor pre-planning prevalent in the first several years of Interstate development (about '57-'64), there was still some politics, mostly at the state and local levels (since the states were charged with delineating the exact alignments), involved in the process; this is certainly one of those instances. Ward, as a KY official, preferred to serve the considerably smaller Paducah over Evansville -- likely because the latter was not in
his state. There's often little or no altruism -- but more than a bit of self-interest -- within a process such as this that inherently produces winners & losers.
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 20, 2017, 12:09:51 PM
Wow a city of 25k deserves an interstate over a city with 121k, i assume the population differences were about the same back then too.
Per Wikipedia, Paducah had a population of 34,479 in 1960, while Evansville had a population of 141,543 and Henderson, KY had a population of 16,982 in 1960.
They could have tried throwing a bigger bone to Evansville and Henderson and had the Pennyrile built so to interstate standards so it could have been later numbered as I-61 or I-63.
Quote from: Revive 755 on October 20, 2017, 09:07:51 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 20, 2017, 12:09:51 PM
Wow a city of 25k deserves an interstate over a city with 121k, i assume the population differences were about the same back then too.
Per Wikipedia, Paducah had a population of 34,479 in 1960, while Evansville had a population of 141,543 and Henderson, KY had a population of 16,982 in 1960.
They could have tried throwing a bigger bone to Evansville and Henderson and had the Pennyrile built so to interstate standards so it could have been later numbered as I-61 or I-63.
If they had added just another 2.5 miles to the north end, and brought it up to the bridge, that bone would have been sufficient. I have never understood how they could have decided to invest and build nearly 80 miles of new highway, and literally leave 2 miles off the north, and 8 miles off of the south ends. The so called Henderson strip was not heavily developed during that time, so running it on up to the bridge would not have been that costly.
Quote from: Captain Jack on October 20, 2017, 10:17:19 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on October 20, 2017, 09:07:51 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 20, 2017, 12:09:51 PM
Wow a city of 25k deserves an interstate over a city with 121k, i assume the population differences were about the same back then too.
Per Wikipedia, Paducah had a population of 34,479 in 1960, while Evansville had a population of 141,543 and Henderson, KY had a population of 16,982 in 1960.
They could have tried throwing a bigger bone to Evansville and Henderson and had the Pennyrile built so to interstate standards so it could have been later numbered as I-61 or I-63.
If they had added just another 2.5 miles to the north end, and brought it up to the bridge, that bone would have been sufficient. I have never understood how they could have decided to invest and build nearly 80 miles of new highway, and literally leave 2 miles off the north, and 8 miles off of the south ends. The so called Henderson strip was not heavily developed during that time, so running it on up to the bridge would not have been that costly.
The I-24 alignment NW of Nashville was in something of a state of flux during that time; the original suggested route out of Nashville was US 41A to Clarksburg (as it is today), but turning west there along US 79 to near Buchanan on the west bank of the Tennessee River. From there it was to follow TN 119 and KY 121 to Mayfield, KY, then north along US 45 to Paducah. IIRC, the "beeline" from Clarksburg to Eddyville, KY wasn't adopted until about 1967, after the "alternate"
I-24S along what is now US 412 from Jackson, TN to Hayti, MO was proposed circa 1963 to avoid traversing the "Land Between the Lakes" but abandoned a few years later in favor of the present I-24 route that avoided the then-proposed park area by circumnavigating it to the north. But both the first and final I-24 iterations had one thing in common: Paducah. The present route accomplished a number of goals important to Mr. Ward and the state of Kentucky in general: it connected the then-nascent parkway system (WKY to Purchase) in the western part of the state while utilizing that precious 90% federal funding level to construct the crossings of both the Cumberland and Tennessee rivers, saving the state a non-inconsiderable amount of money. Obviously connecting the I-24 "beeline" to the Pennyrile wasn't much of a priority, seeing that those last 7 miles weren't done until about 45 years after Ward originally commissioned the parkway; in that sense, provding Evansville service from the south was something of an "afterthought", at least within KY transportation circles at the time.
And, to reiterate the obvious, the western half of the doomed I-24S proposal was added to the Interstate system later as I-155.
Quote from: sparker on October 21, 2017, 03:04:56 AM
Quote from: Captain Jack on October 20, 2017, 10:17:19 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on October 20, 2017, 09:07:51 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 20, 2017, 12:09:51 PM
Wow a city of 25k deserves an interstate over a city with 121k, i assume the population differences were about the same back then too.
Per Wikipedia, Paducah had a population of 34,479 in 1960, while Evansville had a population of 141,543 and Henderson, KY had a population of 16,982 in 1960.
They could have tried throwing a bigger bone to Evansville and Henderson and had the Pennyrile built so to interstate standards so it could have been later numbered as I-61 or I-63.
If they had added just another 2.5 miles to the north end, and brought it up to the bridge, that bone would have been sufficient. I have never understood how they could have decided to invest and build nearly 80 miles of new highway, and literally leave 2 miles off the north, and 8 miles off of the south ends. The so called Henderson strip was not heavily developed during that time, so running it on up to the bridge would not have been that costly.
The I-24 alignment NW of Nashville was in something of a state of flux during that time; the original suggested route out of Nashville was US 41A to Clarksburg (as it is today), but turning west there along US 79 to near Buchanan on the west bank of the Tennessee River. From there it was to follow TN 119 and KY 121 to Mayfield, KY, then north along US 45 to Paducah. IIRC, the "beeline" from Clarksburg to Eddyville, KY wasn't adopted until about 1967, after the "alternate" I-24S along what is now US 412 from Jackson, TN to Hayti, MO was proposed circa 1963 to avoid traversing the "Land Between the Lakes" but abandoned a few years later in favor of the present I-24 route that avoided the then-proposed park area by circumnavigating it to the north. But both the first and final I-24 iterations had one thing in common: Paducah. The present route accomplished a number of goals important to Mr. Ward and the state of Kentucky in general: it connected the then-nascent parkway system (WKY to Purchase) in the western part of the state while utilizing that precious 90% federal funding level to construct the crossings of both the Cumberland and Tennessee rivers, saving the state a non-inconsiderable amount of money. Obviously connecting the I-24 "beeline" to the Pennyrile wasn't much of a priority, seeing that those last 7 miles weren't done until about 45 years after Ward originally commissioned the parkway; in that sense, provding Evansville service from the south was something of an "afterthought", at least within KY transportation circles at the time.
And, to reiterate the obvious, the western half of the doomed I-24S proposal was added to the Interstate system later as I-155.
I would think that Tennessee would have welcomed the use of the US-79 corridor from Clarksville, TN west until it went up through Murray and Mayfield. All of the development that is currently in Kentucky in the Eddyville/Gilbertsville/Cadiz area would have been on the south side of the LBL area instead. Would have also been a plus for Murray, KY with Murray State University, but I think that they've done OK since then.
Quote from: Life in Paradise on October 21, 2017, 11:33:15 AM
I would think that Tennessee would have welcomed the use of the US-79 corridor from Clarksville, TN west until it went up through Murray and Mayfield. All of the development that is currently in Kentucky in the Eddyville/Gilbertsville/Cadiz area would have been on the south side of the LBL area instead. Would have also been a plus for Murray, KY with Murray State University, but I think that they've done OK since then.
IIRC, the driving force behind abandoning the Murray/Mayfield I-24 routing was rumblings in the '60's regarding establishing the Land Between the Lakes as protected parkland; TN likely projected that parkland might extend south between the two lakes well past the US 79 crossing -- and they simply hedged their bets with the original "I-24S" concept (the parkland
was eventually put in place with the
Land Between the Lakes NRA). The prioritization re I-24 as a whole was the segment between Nashville and Chattanooga -- which was seen as a more vital in-state link than the segment toward St. Louis, although from a
regional viewpoint the latter is also an important connector.
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 20, 2017, 12:09:51 PM
Quote from: Captain Jack on October 20, 2017, 12:43:20 AM
Going through the Courier and Press archives on the EVPL site, there was a serious push to get I-24 routed along US 41 from Nashville to Evansville. This heated up considerably when the southern route for I-64 was selected.
Indiana was pushing hard, and it appears it would have happened had it not been for one man, Henry Ward. Ward was a political heavyweight in Kentucky, and was a Paducah native. During this time he also was the State Highway Commissioner. He swung the route to Paducah, and threw Evansville-Henderson a bone in the Pennyrile Parkway. In the article announcing the decision in 1961, Ward was quoted with the promise that US 41 would be replaced with a modern, 4-lane highway in the very near future. He appears to have been true to his word, as the Pennyrile went from the drawing board to completion in under a 5 year period. A time-frame unheard of today.
An interesting side note from Wards obituary. He was credited with routing I-65 through downtown Louisville and later referred to that as a mistake.
Wow a city of 25k deserves an interstate over a city with 121k, i assume the population differences were about the same back then too.
Don't forget, Evansville was also in a dogfight with Vincennes, population 18K, for I-64. This fight resulted in the "compromised" southern route, which is about 10 miles too far north to provide any traffic benefit to the Evansville area.
Instead of fighting over I-64, Vincennes should have joined forces with Evansville and Terre Haute and went all out in getting the Chicago-Nashville route right down the US 41 corridor. That would have provided far more reaching benefits than I-64.
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 11, 2016, 02:35:29 PM
Quote from: coatimundi on August 07, 2016, 01:02:32 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 06, 2016, 11:58:38 PM
Did Gary secretly join Illinois?
Might as well. Northwestern Indiana seems to feel perpetually neglected by Indianapolis. The Central Time folks just don't have much of a central focus. I don't blame them.
Quote from: Captain Jack on August 06, 2016, 01:15:07 PM2. The initial Interstate System. I-64 is certainly questionable. It seems odd there was a dogfight with Vincennes to begin with.
Somewhere in this forum, someone posted the "History of the Interstate System in Indiana (http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2257&context=jtrp)," produced by Purdue in the 70's. I found it enthralling, especially with its depiction of the history of I-64. But it talks about this fight between Vincennes and Evansville, and it was not just simply a matter of size or some wealthy corporate weight-swinging. There was a period where I-64 was shown on commercial maps as following US 50, so it was certainly a strong consideration.
I mean, maybe you guys know that publication really well, but, if not, it's definitely worth a couple of hours of reading if you're interested in how routings were determined.
I mean, when I lived in Bloomington, I preferred US 50 as a route to St. Louis over 46 to 70. It was more interesting and, after 69 was completed to US 231, it took about the same amount of time, even with the congested jog in Lebanon.
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 06, 2016, 11:58:38 PM
as well as making it harder to get the Champaign-Urbana.
And I think that's one of the big reasons I-57 exists. There's always been a tremendous amount of vehicle traffic between Chicagoland and Chambana. Those rich parents from the suburbs don't want to have to roll through Rantoul or Gilman on surface streets.
that link was absolute gold! i've been looking for history books talking about the reason why the interstate are they way they are now.
RE: Vincennes...I-64 was envisioned to follow the old Midland Trail from Virginia Beach, VA to St. Louis. That's why the Government was looking at following US 150/US 50 from Louisville to St. Louis after following US 60 from Virginia Beach to Louisville.
Quote from: Captain Jack on October 23, 2017, 06:46:37 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 20, 2017, 12:09:51 PM
Quote from: Captain Jack on October 20, 2017, 12:43:20 AM
Going through the Courier and Press archives on the EVPL site, there was a serious push to get I-24 routed along US 41 from Nashville to Evansville. This heated up considerably when the southern route for I-64 was selected.
Indiana was pushing hard, and it appears it would have happened had it not been for one man, Henry Ward. Ward was a political heavyweight in Kentucky, and was a Paducah native. During this time he also was the State Highway Commissioner. He swung the route to Paducah, and threw Evansville-Henderson a bone in the Pennyrile Parkway. In the article announcing the decision in 1961, Ward was quoted with the promise that US 41 would be replaced with a modern, 4-lane highway in the very near future. He appears to have been true to his word, as the Pennyrile went from the drawing board to completion in under a 5 year period. A time-frame unheard of today.
An interesting side note from Wards obituary. He was credited with routing I-65 through downtown Louisville and later referred to that as a mistake.
Wow a city of 25k deserves an interstate over a city with 121k, i assume the population differences were about the same back then too.
Don't forget, Evansville was also in a dogfight with Vincennes, population 18K, for I-64. This fight resulted in the "compromised" southern route, which is about 10 miles too far north to provide any traffic benefit to the Evansville area.
Instead of fighting over I-64, Vincennes should have joined forces with Evansville and Terre Haute and went all out in getting the Chicago-Nashville route right down the US 41 corridor. That would have provided far more reaching benefits than I-64.
In the early 1980s, INDOT had plans to build a western bypass around Terre Haute, starting on US41/150 just about where the current SR641 bypass ends, connecting up to SR 63 north of TH. I've heard that the city balked at the deal for what reason I cant recall.
If that had been completed, or if a connector from the former US40 and SR 46 intersection near Rose-Hulman to SR 63 north of TH were completed now, the route from Evansville to Chicago would be well on its way to an expressway like US 24 or 30. Still some traffic lights to remove or endure in northern Sullivan and southern Vermillion counties, but the TH bypass would improve that route considerably.
My guess is there was political issues that prevented INDOT from pursuing this at that time. Terre Haute has always had a reputation for having a lot of political cronyism, especially in years past.
I am afraid taking SR-641 on around the eastern side and then back across would be too costly, and too lengthy for a north-south motorist. Just looking at maps without a ton of geographical knowledge of the route, it appears the cheapest and most direct option would be to drop the route straight south from IN-63, around West Terre Haute, joining I-70 across the Wabash, and then south behind the mall area, hooking up with US 41 at the SR 641 interchange. This would also give Terre Haute a nice expressway loop around 3/4 of the city.
Quote from: Captain Jack on December 13, 2017, 01:14:33 PM
My guess is there was political issues that prevented INDOT from pursuing this at that time. Terre Haute has always had a reputation for having a lot of political cronyism, especially in years past.
I am afraid taking SR-641 on around the eastern side and then back across would be too costly, and too lengthy for a north-south motorist. Just looking at maps without a ton of geographical knowledge of the route, it appears the cheapest and most direct option would be to drop the route straight south from IN-63, around West Terre Haute, joining I-70 across the Wabash, and then south behind the mall area, hooking up with US 41 at the SR 641 interchange. This would also give Terre Haute a nice expressway loop around 3/4 of the city.
Quote from: Captain Jack on December 13, 2017, 01:14:33 PM
My guess is there was political issues that prevented INDOT from pursuing this at that time. Terre Haute has always had a reputation for having a lot of political cronyism, especially in years past.
I am afraid taking SR-641 on around the eastern side and then back across would be too costly, and too lengthy for a north-south motorist. Just looking at maps without a ton of geographical knowledge of the route, it appears the cheapest and most direct option would be to drop the route straight south from IN-63, around West Terre Haute, joining I-70 across the Wabash, and then south behind the mall area, hooking up with US 41 at the SR 641 interchange. This would also give Terre Haute a nice expressway loop around 3/4 of the city.
"3/4" loops are in and of themselves an interesting concept: capable of functioning as a bypass for two directions (in the Terre Haute case, both a E-W bypass, using the existing IN 641) and a N-S bypass with the western proposed new alignment. But because it's not a full ring or loop, its usefulness as a place to put commercial or housing development is limited vis-Ã -vis a full loop (there's always some loop function that's not available!) -- it stands a decent chance of remaining a bypass rather than a commercial strip. Besides, in this particular case, the location of the Wabash River makes it difficult (read expensive) to connect the north end of 641 directly across to IN 63; best just to extend
that alignment generally south to the 41/641 junction.