http://www.wcti12.com/news/state/nc-senate-bill-would-fine-slow-drivers-in-the-left-lane/399815475
If passed and signed into law, the fine for hogging the left lane could be as much as $200 which would make it many magnitudes more costly than speeding (which if memory serves is $10 for speeds less than 10 over). Of course the court costs would need to be added into both so the total cost would be near $200 for a $10 speeding ticket anyway, but you get the idea!
I'm all for it, as I have always been convinced that the people who clog the left lane causing the people behind them to start making dodgy moves to get around them have always been potentially more dangerous than those speeding a little over the limit on roads that are already under posted to begin with.
I strongly agree. People going too slow cause way more accidents than those going too fast
Good. I'm glad they're increasing the penalties for left-lane hogging.
I think laws like this should apply to all divided highways (both freeways and non-freeways) with a speed limit at or over 55 MPH outside urban areas.
New Jersey along with a few other states have "Keep Right Except To Pass" bills with stiff penalties ($185+2 points in NJ). It doesn't seem to make that much of a difference as enforcement is "difficult" compared to running radar.
I would agree. Something like this is needed for the pure idiocy of some drivers. Albeit, I haven't been driving for that long, but I've seen enough to know. Good on them.
iPhone
This law is a slippery slope. I don't think I support it as written.
If the only effect of this is to get people obliviously driving in the left lane clearly under the speed limit or slower than the natural flow of traffic, and matching speed or playing leapfrog with a car in the right lane, I think it's OK.
If the intention is to give me a ticket when I'm driving in a 65 zone, going maybe 72 in the left lane, passing somebody going 62 in the right lane, and intending to get right as soon as I have passed the slower car at a safe distance, and then somebody (or even a group of several drivers) who want to go 85 come up on my ass and start tailgating, then no f-ing way. I mean, if somebody comes up behind me who wants to go faster, I'll maybe speed it up to 75 until I clear the slower car and get back in the right lane, but the majority of the time, when somebody comes up on me from behind in a situation like that, they are tailgating roadhogs. I am absolutely opposed to passing any law that enables that sort of behavior.
Therefore, I am suspicious that some people on the interwebs advocating against left-lane hogging are actually in the tailgating roadhog category, as I encounter that selfish speed demon road hog tailgating behavior WAY more often than I encounter a true left-lane hog. I am strongly of the opinion that anyone who thinks 72 in a 65 is not fast enough for the left lane while passing, should be made to go back through driver's ed.
Another thing is that the "keep right except to pass" and "slower traffic keep right" goes completely out the window when traffic is congested. Say I'm on I-40 at rush hour and traffic is moving about 35mph in all lanes. I happen to be in the left lane, following a safe 2 or 3 seconds behind the driver in front of me. Enter Mr. Roadhog in his BMW, tailgating me at about a distance of 10 feet. I guess he thinks that his desire to drive faster than everybody else means he is entitled to part the traffic like Moses parted the Red Sea. REVOKE!
So maybe if this law came with a drastic increase in license points, financial penalties, and enforcement for tailgating, then I'd be on board. Otherwise, I see it mostly as kow-towing, enabling, and vindicating tailgaters - so, NO THANKS.
You still should get over and let the idiot going 90 through.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on March 18, 2017, 02:14:09 AM
New Jersey along with a few other states have "Keep Right Except To Pass" bills with stiff penalties ($185+2 points in NJ). It doesn't seem to make that much of a difference as enforcement is "difficult" compared to running radar.
We also have "No Trucks in Left Lane" laws that I've never seen enforced. Same with keep right except to pass.
My question is if you are passing someone who is going under the speed limit and your maneuver causes you to exceed the speed limit by day 5 mph, are you going to get pegged for it if a cop is running radar as you attempt to pass?
Quote from: Zeffy on March 20, 2017, 03:48:08 PM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on March 18, 2017, 02:14:09 AM
New Jersey along with a few other states have "Keep Right Except To Pass" bills with stiff penalties ($185+2 points in NJ). It doesn't seem to make that much of a difference as enforcement is "difficult" compared to running radar.
We also have "No Trucks in Left Lane" laws that I've never seen enforced. Same with keep right except to pass.
My question is if you are passing someone who is going under the speed limit and your maneuver causes you to exceed the speed limit by day 5 mph, are you going to get pegged for it if a cop is running radar as you attempt to pass?
Technically, yes. You're permitted to drive under the speed limit, not over.
Will a cop give a damn about 5 mph though? Probably not, unless you're in a few towns that actually care about the limit...or are being a dick about your passing!
Quote from: thefro on March 20, 2017, 03:41:59 PM
You still should get over and let the idiot going 90 through.
I don't think he said he wouldn't do that. I think his point was that he shouldn't have to floor it to finish passing the other guy just because the guy behind him wants to get through faster. What I sometimes do in that situation is to put on my right blinker a little early as a way of saying I'm going to move over once I'm far enough ahead of the guy I'm passing. Sometimes the guy behind me understands, sometimes not.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 20, 2017, 03:55:24 PM
Quote from: thefro on March 20, 2017, 03:41:59 PM
You still should get over and let the idiot going 90 through.
I don't think he said he wouldn't do that. I think his point was that he shouldn't have to floor it to finish passing the other guy just because the guy behind him wants to get through faster. What I sometimes do in that situation is to put on my right blinker a little early as a way of saying I'm going to move over once I'm far enough ahead of the guy I'm passing. Sometimes the guy behind me understands, sometimes not.
I do that too. But, honestly, if you're passing someone at a difference of 72 to 62 and somebody still manages to end up on your tail going 90 mph, then he was obviously close enough behind you that you should have seen him coming in your mirrors. You should have waited to pass until the speed demon got past you. Yes, tailgating at high speeds is dangerous, but so is pulling out in front of someone going that fast.
I agree with that.
I'm not good with tailgating either. I don't mind getting held up a little by someone who is too timid to complete their pass in a timely manner and get back over, excrement occurs....
I'm talking about the douchebag that you spot 2 miles ahead of you in the left lane and it takes you several minutes to catch up to him and he still doesn't budge. Show him a little left front in the left side mirror-nothing. A flash to pass of the headlights, nada. Nothing budges until the guy in the right lane decides that he no longer wants to be side by side with the moron in the left and speeds up, or slow down (which he shouldn't have to do at all, he's in the right lane). We've all seen what happens next, I don't think I have to go into it here.
"I'm already going the speed limit so no one else should be able to get by me". Let the cops be the cops. If a douchenozzle in a BMW wants to go 90 let him. It's his ticket to chance, it's not up to you to be the enforcer.
I can tell you that most of the road rage incidents that I handle on a daily basis are initially caused by someone one in the left lane refusing to budge. I'm not sticking up for the prick that's trying to run someone off the road but damn, most of it could be avoided if the "it's my right" crowd would just get the hell out of the way.
My dad always used to say "You may be right but what good is it if you're dead right?
in Illinois on New Year's Eve, i passed a marked cop car pacing traffic below the speed limit in the left lane.
knowing it was bullcrap, i passed him on the right going 3 mph over the 65 mph speed limit.
best 75 bucks i ever spent.
slory-i think that behavior is worse in the south having driven in the midwest and the south for an equal amount of time. I think a lot of the left lane hogging has to do with being macho and not letting someone pass you.
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2017, 04:00:21 PMBut, honestly, if you're passing someone at a difference of 72 to 62 and somebody still manages to end up on your tail going 90 mph, then he was obviously close enough behind you that you should have seen him coming in your mirrors.
I can say from experience that this is
absolutely not always the case, considering that on a recent drive up I-95 from Jacksonville I had to pull into the left lane to perform a passing maneuver on two trucks, the lane was clear for a very long distance behind me as I did so, but before the trucks were passed I was being tailgated by not one but two drivers who clearly thought they were the second and third coming of Mario Andretti.
Quote from: Georgia on March 20, 2017, 09:49:08 PMI think a lot of the left lane hogging has to do with being macho and not letting someone pass you.
I agree. Hell, I knew a guy in high school that was bragging to his buddies one day about how every time someone tried to pass him, he would speed up. He thought it was funny. I let him know in a hurry that I didn't think it was.
Quote from: Aerobird on March 21, 2017, 05:53:34 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 20, 2017, 04:00:21 PMBut, honestly, if you're passing someone at a difference of 72 to 62 and somebody still manages to end up on your tail going 90 mph, then he was obviously close enough behind you that you should have seen him coming in your mirrors.
I can say from experience that this is absolutely not always the case, considering that on a recent drive up I-95 from Jacksonville I had to pull into the left lane to perform a passing maneuver on two trucks, the lane was clear for a very long distance behind me as I did so, but before the trucks were passed I was being tailgated by not one but two drivers who clearly thought they were the second and third coming of Mario Andretti.
What about the right lane? If the speed demon was keeping right except to pass, then only looking at the left lane in your mirror wouldn't matter. Sorry, but I've been driving in many situations in which speed demons come up at 20+ mph faster than me, and I always see them coming from afar back, plenty in advance to know whether or not I should overtake or wait when the time comes. Frequent use of your mirrors should avoid this issue in all but the rarest cases. And in those rarest cases, switching to your right blinker halfway through the passing maneuver almost always gets the message across; it might not keep them from tailgating, but it keeps them from passing on the inside.
Quote from: kphoger on March 21, 2017, 10:47:13 AMout the right lane? If the speed demon was keeping right except to pass, then only looking at the left lane in your mirror wouldn't matter. Sorry, but I've been driving in many situations in which speed demons come up at 20+ mph faster than me, and I always see them coming from afar back, plenty in advance to know whether or not I should overtake or wait when the time comes. Frequent use of your mirrors should avoid this issue in all but the rarest cases. And in those rarest cases, switching to your right blinker halfway through the passing maneuver almost always gets the message across; it might not keep them from tailgating, but it keeps them from passing on the inside.
Right lane: Truck.
Center lane: Truck.
Left lane: Me, with the Speed Racer wannabes
not visible in any lane as I began the pass. The fact it was dust did make visibility less than it could have been, but the point is going "oh you should have watched your mirrors" does
not apply in all cases.
Quote from: orulz on March 20, 2017, 03:38:41 PM
This law is a slippery slope. I don't think I support it as written.
If the only effect of this is to get people obliviously driving in the left lane clearly under the speed limit or slower than the natural flow of traffic, and matching speed or playing leapfrog with a car in the right lane, I think it's OK.
If the intention is to give me a ticket when I'm driving in a 65 zone, going maybe 72 in the left lane, passing somebody going 62 in the right lane, and intending to get right as soon as I have passed the slower car at a safe distance, and then somebody (or even a group of several drivers) who want to go 85 come up on my ass and start tailgating, then no f-ing way. I mean, if somebody comes up behind me who wants to go faster, I'll maybe speed it up to 75 until I clear the slower car and get back in the right lane, but the majority of the time, when somebody comes up on me from behind in a situation like that, they are tailgating roadhogs. I am absolutely opposed to passing any law that enables that sort of behavior.
Therefore, I am suspicious that some people on the interwebs advocating against left-lane hogging are actually in the tailgating roadhog category, as I encounter that selfish speed demon road hog tailgating behavior WAY more often than I encounter a true left-lane hog. I am strongly of the opinion that anyone who thinks 72 in a 65 is not fast enough for the left lane while passing, should be made to go back through driver's ed.
Another thing is that the "keep right except to pass" and "slower traffic keep right" goes completely out the window when traffic is congested. Say I'm on I-40 at rush hour and traffic is moving about 35mph in all lanes. I happen to be in the left lane, following a safe 2 or 3 seconds behind the driver in front of me. Enter Mr. Roadhog in his BMW, tailgating me at about a distance of 10 feet. I guess he thinks that his desire to drive faster than everybody else means he is entitled to part the traffic like Moses parted the Red Sea. REVOKE!
So maybe if this law came with a drastic increase in license points, financial penalties, and enforcement for tailgating, then I'd be on board. Otherwise, I see it mostly as kow-towing, enabling, and vindicating tailgaters - so, NO THANKS.
I have always been of the opinion that many drivers interpret Keep Right Except To Pass as Keep Right Except To Speed. They are the drivers who feel speed limits are set artificially low and are really about generating revenue for local governments rather than about public safety. Or, they feel speed limits shouldn't exist because they interfere with the driver's perceived right to operate his/her vehicle in whatever manner he/she sees fit. They effectively take advantage of one law in order to enable them to break another law they don't like. BUT - I also understand that since I am not a law enforcement officer, I do not have the moral or legal authority to write speeding tickets or make people slow down to the speed limit. So, while I do not like the way many drivers apply the Keep Right concept out in the field I make a conscious effort to abide by it, if for no other reason than to avoid a conflict with a driver who wants to go 80 in a 65 because he/she believes speed limits are for pussies.
And that's precisely it. Abiding by the speed limit doesn't give you the right to interfere with traffic by blocking the left lane. Likewise, going 10 mph over the speed limit doesn't give you the right to interfere with traffic even faster than you by blocking the left lane.
Quote from: kphoger on March 24, 2017, 01:14:53 PM
And that's precisely it. Abiding by the speed limit doesn't give you the right to interfere with traffic by blocking the left lane. Likewise, going 10 mph over the speed limit doesn't give you the right to interfere with traffic even faster than you by blocking the left lane.
Here in the Northeast, I typically drive 70 in a 55, 75 in a 65, or 80 in a 70. If I find that I am starting to block traffic wanting to go faster because we're all passing a long line of slower cars, I will speed up 5mph faster than that. BUT..I refuse to go faster than 15mph faster than the limit in the left lane...people in a hurry behind me are going to have to wait until I reach the first reasonable opportunity to move over to the right lane. Then I signal early that I am going to move over.
And by reasonable, I am not going to cut someone off in the right lane to squeeze into a space barely larger than a car length or two.
^^ Sounds like reasonable behavior.
I do duck into the right lane on occasion to let faster traffic by, then dart out into the left again–assuming a decent space in the right lane. My slowing down by 5 mph to let four other drivers by is quite all right with me: I'll eat the seven seconds I wasted.
You are not technically "blocking the left lane" as long as you are acutally passing cars in the right lane. Say you want to go 70mph in a 65mph zone. There is a line of several semis in front of you going 60mph. You patiently wait while a group of cars going 75mph in the left lane passes, and then an opening presents itself in the left lane. You check your mirrors and note that there is a faster car about a quarter mile back. Even though you know there is a faster car coming, you should still be allowed to get left and complete your pass at 70mph, even if it means the faster car may catch up to you while you are passing and have to slow down. Of course, if this car does come up behind you, you should get into the right lane once you have overtaken the line of 60mph semis. And of course you shouldn't jump out in front of a speed demon and cut them off. But you should still be allowed to pass, even if it means somebody might catch up to you, and have to slow down.
I am generally a "10 over" kind of guy, frequently I wind up in the left lane behind a "5 over" person, who is passing a "stick to the speed limit" person in the right lane. This situation plays out almost exactly like the above. The "5 over" person usually gets back in the right lane once they have completed their pass. I don't see this as a "left lane hog" situation at all. Being behind this "5 over" person doesn't bother me one bit. I follow 2~3 seconds behind them, waiting patiently for them to complete their pass, then I pass them, and once I have 2~3 seconds lead on them, then I get right too.
But what DOES happen sometimes during this process is that a "20 over" person comes up behind and either starts tailgating me, or else quickly passes me on the right and then cuts me off in order to get between me and the "5 over" driver in front of me. They clearly think that neither me or the 5-over guy have any business being in the left lane and that they should be entitled to drive however fast they want. I say they are just impatient assholes, should slow down a bit and wait patiently like a civilized person, and should furthermore be pulled over and given a ticket for tailgating and/or cutting off.
Quote from: orulz on March 24, 2017, 03:20:54 PM
You are not technically "blocking the left lane" as long as you are acutally passing cars in the right lane.
I am generally a "10 over" kind of guy, frequently I wind up in the left lane behind a "5 over" person, who is passing a "stick to the speed limit" person in the right lane. This situation plays out almost exactly like the above. The "5 over" person usually gets back in the right lane once they have completed their pass. I don't see this as a "left lane hog" situation at all. Being behind this "5 over" person doesn't bother me one bit. I follow 2~3 seconds behind them, waiting patiently for them to complete their pass, then I pass them, and once I have 2~3 seconds lead on them, then I get right too.
See, I'm more like you when it comes to this. I feel like if I can see you are making progress in passing the other cars then I have no issue with you, even if that's a little slower than I want to go.
The people I have a problem are the douchebags that run door handle to door handle with one car for miles on end, with nothing in front of them in either lane for a quarter mile or more.
Then, if they do finally get past the last car on the right they don't move over, and I'm stuck with a decision to make-can I fit in the tiny amount of room this prick is allowing me to get over so I can now pass him on the right (something one should never be forced to do) or am I still stuck. By this time I usually have some other impatient asshole about an inch off my exhaust tips as if I'm the one holding up the program.I'm usually pretty mild mannered on the road. I'll let you in even if I have the right of way, I try my best to not cut people off, I allow plenty of room when I merge in front of other people, I don't tailgate (etc,etc). But pricks like this usually get a 4th gear blast of acceleration, the horn and the middle finger as I go by them on the right. Then I usually use the impatient asshole as my teaching tool. After my car finally slows back down to the speed I wanted to go in the first place I stay in the right lane and allow him to pass me on the left. I point at my roof and then to the right, make a sweeping motion to show a clear left lane, and then a thumbs up back at the hog to show that this is how it's supposed to work. It probably doesn't accomplish anything, most of them are to stupid to be driving to begin with, but hey, it makes me feel better anyway.
Quote from: orulz on March 24, 2017, 03:20:54 PM
You are not technically "blocking the left lane" as long as you are acutally passing cars in the right lane.
I agree with this lol. I was driving back to KC from St. Louis one day and I ended up staying in the left lane all the way from Warrenton to just east of Columbia. There were so many trucks that day it was crazy. It was a long line of cars in the left lane and I kept pace with the car in front of me.
But, I usually move over unless I'm passing someone. There are times when the car ahead of me is going slow and I can't merge into the right lane so I'm basically stuck behind the slow car (and a bunch of cars behind me are stuck too). I'd be favor of all states passing this kind of law.
What slorydn1 describes is what I sometimes call the "Grandpa cruise control pass." You're on an Interstate or similar with two lanes on a side, say like I-81 in Virginia, and you come up on a line of trucks in the right lane that are all going just a smidgen under the speed limit. Grandpa is up ahead in his big old American boat (I always picture a big Oldsmobile or similar) with the cruise control set right at the speed limit, so he's been catching up with the trucks, and he decides to pass them but leaves the cruise control set and does not touch the accelerator. Traffic piles up in both lanes since nobody can go anywhere, and it sometimes gets worse when one of the truck drivers pulls out in front of Grandpa and forms a wall.
Quote from: slorydn1 on March 24, 2017, 08:41:09 PM
The people I have a problem are the douchebags that run door handle to door handle with one car for miles on end, with nothing in front of them in either lane for a quarter mile or more. Then, if they do finally get past the last car on the right they don't move over
Yes, I agree I don't like it when drivers do this. But it's not that big of a deal to me. Very seldom am I stuck in such a situation for more than 5 minutes or so, so I just relax, give my 2~3 seconds of safe following distance, and eventually one side winds up ahead of the other. Never in my life have I had to drive across the entire country stuck behind some people doing that. If I did, I think I would just get off at the next exit or rest area and take a breather for a while. Not worth the stress.
However, I encounter this far less often than I do tailgaters in BMWs who impatiently aren't satisfied with somebody passing another car at +5mph. I guess it must be getting in the way of their "Ultimate Driving Experience."
This is why I am skeptical of any heavy handed "Keep Left Except To Pass" law. It encourages a sense of
entitlement that leads to even more impatience and dangerous driving behavior like tailgating. In effect, legitimizing it. The fact that NJ has such a law makes perfect sense to me, given the relative ubiquity of impatient drivers and tailgating in that state. (No offense to any NJ forumers, but I think you'll probably agree that NJ drivers are pretty impatient!) (But at least they use their turn signals, unlike here in NC...)
Without a left lane law, people still feel entitled to the left lane, because keeping right is common courtesy. But what having no left lane law does is to allow left lane hogs a similar sense of entitlement. A person holding up traffic by going 5 to 10 mph slower than everyone else in the left lane is doing nothing illegal without a left lane law, and that just shouldn't be so.
I see both 'left lane hogs' and 'tailgating jerks' as a problem. My personal observations indicate that tailgaters FAR outnumber 'left lane hogs', and are far more dangerous to boot. If you can solve the left lane hogs WITHOUT making tailgating worse, then feel free. I continue to be skeptical.
I'd rather see speed demons tailgating every so often while someone is completing a slow pass than see speed demons hot-dog from right to left to right to left lane because the other drivers aren't making way.
Quote from: orulz on March 27, 2017, 08:22:08 PM
I see both 'left lane hogs' and 'tailgating jerks' as a problem. My personal observations indicate that tailgaters FAR outnumber 'left lane hogs', and are far more dangerous to boot. If you can solve the left lane hogs WITHOUT making tailgating worse, then feel free. I continue to be skeptical.
This seems impossible. A person cannot tailgate without another to be stuck behind, and a person cannot hog the left lane without someone to impede. They exist as a result of one another, and thus the problems caused by them are equal and the same. Solving one problem should therefore take care of the other.
Quote from: Thing 342 on April 03, 2017, 01:12:29 AM
Quote from: orulz on March 27, 2017, 08:22:08 PM
I see both 'left lane hogs' and 'tailgating jerks' as a problem. My personal observations indicate that tailgaters FAR outnumber 'left lane hogs', and are far more dangerous to boot. If you can solve the left lane hogs WITHOUT making tailgating worse, then feel free. I continue to be skeptical.
This seems impossible. A person cannot tailgate without another to be stuck behind, and a person cannot hog the left lane without someone to impede. They exist as a result of one another, and thus the problems caused by them are equal and the same. Solving one problem should therefore take care of the other.
Probably true solution would be implementing gradient of speed limits, with say 10 MPH step per lane. That would remove entitlement both from someone going 55 in left lane, and someone going speed limit+40...
I don't see how per-lane speed limits would help and find their benefit specious at best where they have been implemented.
The only answer is for the slower vehicle to move over.
Quote from: Rothman on April 03, 2017, 09:51:21 AM
I don't see how per-lane speed limits would help and find their benefit specious at best where they have been implemented.
The only answer is for the slower vehicle to move over.
Well, first step is realistic speed limit :awesomeface:
But overall, there is some - probably Gaussian - distributions of comfortable speeds. Naturally in moderate density traffic only a few can move at comfortable speed, and most have to go with speed of the lane. So best case scenario, as I can see it, is establishing several speed "buckets" to choose from - that indeed slows down high end of spectrum -= but we want to do that anyway.
Now that approach opens up possibility of RObin Hood tax (aka speeding tickets) for everyone in left lane with artificially low speed limits..
And yes, per-lane limits wouldn't work if they are well below natural flow speed...
Quote from: kalvado on April 03, 2017, 06:31:43 AM
Quote from: Thing 342 on April 03, 2017, 01:12:29 AM
Quote from: orulz on March 27, 2017, 08:22:08 PM
I see both 'left lane hogs' and 'tailgating jerks' as a problem. My personal observations indicate that tailgaters FAR outnumber 'left lane hogs', and are far more dangerous to boot. If you can solve the left lane hogs WITHOUT making tailgating worse, then feel free. I continue to be skeptical.
This seems impossible. A person cannot tailgate without another to be stuck behind, and a person cannot hog the left lane without someone to impede. They exist as a result of one another, and thus the problems caused by them are equal and the same. Solving one problem should therefore take care of the other.
Probably true solution would be implementing gradient of speed limits, with say 10 MPH step per lane. That would remove entitlement both from someone going 55 in left lane, and someone going speed limit+40...
Excellent suggestion!
Quote from: kalvado on April 03, 2017, 06:31:43 AM
Probably true solution would be implementing gradient of speed limits, with say 10 MPH step per lane. That would remove entitlement both from someone going 55 in left lane, and someone going speed limit+40...
I've driven on such a highway. The free highway between Monterrey and Saltillo (Mexico) has/had a speed limit of 80 km/h for the right lane and a speed limit of 100 km/h for the left lane. It seems fine at first glance, but what if you want to drive 90 km/h? You would technically be required to drive in the left lane exclusively and, if anyone wanted to pass you, you'd have to slow down just to make way for them. It doesn't make things any better.
Quote from: kphoger on April 06, 2017, 01:10:32 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 03, 2017, 06:31:43 AM
Probably true solution would be implementing gradient of speed limits, with say 10 MPH step per lane. That would remove entitlement both from someone going 55 in left lane, and someone going speed limit+40...
I've driven on such a highway. The free highway between Monterrey and Saltillo (Mexico) has/had a speed limit of 80 km/h for the right lane and a speed limit of 100 km/h for the left lane. It seems fine at first glance, but what if you want to drive 90 km/h? You would technically be required to drive in the left lane exclusively and, if anyone wanted to pass you, you'd have to slow down just to make way for them. It doesn't make things any better.
None of those is going to be ideal.
Imagine you're going speed limit in right lane, and approaching someone at SL-10. Left lane flows at SL+15 around you slowpokes. What would you do?
Or you're comfortable driving 35 on 1-lane road posted at 45.. Maybe you are just driving a heavy truck?
Any restriction and any traffic pattern would make someone uncomfortable...
My problem is the slippery slope here.
Is the idea that somebody in the left lane, ALWAYS, is obligated to move over, whether due to laws or due to just out of consdieration, whenever somebody faster than them comes up from behind, absolutely as soon as possible?
Take the below situation:
LEFT LANE : (+25 >) (+10 >) (+5 >) ---------gap----------------------------------
RIGHT LANE: (-5 >) (-5 >) (-5 >) (-5 >) -gap-- (-5 >) (-5 >) (-5 >) (-5 >)
There is a +5 car in the left lane, followed by me, wanting to go +10, followed by a car that wants to go +25. They are passing a long line of cars going -5 in the right lane. At some point in the line, there is a gap. Not a large gap, but just large enough for one car to get over. Is the +5 driver obligated to do legally? Should they do so out of consideration? Even though they are still clearly going above the speed limit, and still clearly passing the slower cars in the right lane? If the +5 driver doesn't take the gap, Am *I*, the +10 driver, obligated to get out of the way of the +25 driver (who is tailgating me by the way) so that he can proceed to tailgate the +5 driver and try to make him speed up and get right too?
I think too many people think that driving in the left lane should give them a free pass to go however fast they want and expect traffic to part like the red sea before Moses. Again, that encourages tailgating.
Quote from: orulz on April 06, 2017, 04:53:09 PM
My problem is the slippery slope here.
Is the idea that somebody in the left lane, ALWAYS, is obligated to move over, whether due to laws or due to just out of consdieration, whenever somebody faster than them comes up from behind, absolutely as soon as possible?
Take the below situation:
LEFT LANE : (+25 >) (+10 >) (+5 >) ---------gap----------------------------------
RIGHT LANE: (-5 >) (-5 >) (-5 >) (-5 >) -gap-- (-5 >) (-5 >) (-5 >) (-5 >)
There is a +5 car in the left lane, followed by me, wanting to go +10, followed by a car that wants to go +25. They are passing a long line of cars going -5 in the right lane. At some point in the line, there is a gap. Not a large gap, but just large enough for one car to get over. Is the +5 driver obligated to do legally? Should they do so out of consideration? Even though they are still clearly going above the speed limit, and still clearly passing the slower cars in the right lane? If the +5 driver doesn't take the gap, Am *I*, the +10 driver, obligated to get out of the way of the +25 driver (who is tailgating me by the way) so that he can proceed to tailgate the +5 driver and try to make him speed up and get right too?
I think too many people think that driving in the left lane should give them a free pass to go however fast they want and expect traffic to part like the red sea before Moses. Again, that encourages tailgating.
I've seen people who wanted to have left lane open for passing when right is congested and moving at 30 mph...
And that is something I think may be addressed with split and realistic speed limit - no need to guess if most people are ok with SL+15 in left lane, or local tradition is SL+30...
Quote from: orulz on April 06, 2017, 04:53:09 PM
My problem is the slippery slope here.
Is the idea that somebody in the left lane, ALWAYS, is obligated to move over, whether due to laws or due to just out of consdieration, whenever somebody faster than them comes up from behind, absolutely as soon as possible?
Take the below situation:
LEFT LANE : (+25 >) (+10 >) (+5 >) ---------gap----------------------------------
RIGHT LANE: (-5 >) (-5 >) (-5 >) (-5 >) -gap-- (-5 >) (-5 >) (-5 >) (-5 >)
There is a +5 car in the left lane, followed by me, wanting to go +10, followed by a car that wants to go +25. They are passing a long line of cars going -5 in the right lane. At some point in the line, there is a gap. Not a large gap, but just large enough for one car to get over. Is the +5 driver obligated to do legally? Should they do so out of consideration? Even though they are still clearly going above the speed limit, and still clearly passing the slower cars in the right lane? If the +5 driver doesn't take the gap, Am *I*, the +10 driver, obligated to get out of the way of the +25 driver (who is tailgating me by the way) so that he can proceed to tailgate the +5 driver and try to make him speed up and get right too?
I think too many people think that driving in the left lane should give them a free pass to go however fast they want and expect traffic to part like the red sea before Moses. Again, that encourages tailgating.
This is pretty much the discussion from years ago on misc.transit.road with the DIGs ("Damn! I'm Good") expecting anyone and everyone to keep the left lane clear for them to travel at excessive speeds without having to slow down.
In the case you present, the first car in the left lane is in "control" and as long as he/she is passing that line of slower vehicles at a reasonable clip, then anyone behind who wants to go even faster has to wait. Just because there is a gap that would require that driver to hit the brakes hard to fit in doesn't mean that is what should be done (although the DIG drivers would expect it, with the guy followed by the second car squeezing into whatever space remains). You are correct in believing you don't need to get out of the way of the third car just so he can go "faster" -- unless he has flashing red or red/blue lights.
Bruce in Blacksburg
Quote from: orulz on April 06, 2017, 04:53:09 PM
I think too many people think that driving in the left lane should give them a free pass to go however fast they want and expect traffic to part like the red sea before Moses. Again, that encourages tailgating.
THIS. The right way to pass is to accelerate TO the posted speed limit get around cars moving well BELOW the posted speed limit (ex. - 60 in a 70). The wrong way to pass is to accelerate ABOVE the speed limit (and stay there) to get around cars that are moving AT the posted speed limit. You shouldn't be able to use one law as an excuse to break another one you don't agree with.
Quote from: orulz on March 27, 2017, 08:22:08 PM
I see both 'left lane hogs' and 'tailgating jerks' as a problem. My personal observations indicate that tailgaters FAR outnumber 'left lane hogs', and are far more dangerous to boot. If you can solve the left lane hogs WITHOUT making tailgating worse, then feel free. I continue to be skeptical.
"Tailgating jerks" are a symptom. "Left-lane hogs" are the disease.
Quote from: Gnutella on April 08, 2017, 07:50:43 AM
Quote from: orulz on March 27, 2017, 08:22:08 PM
I see both 'left lane hogs' and 'tailgating jerks' as a problem. My personal observations indicate that tailgaters FAR outnumber 'left lane hogs', and are far more dangerous to boot. If you can solve the left lane hogs WITHOUT making tailgating worse, then feel free. I continue to be skeptical.
"Tailgating jerks" are a symptom. "Left-lane hogs" are the disease.
Gnutella, I prefer to put it in a different way: Always remember that you're not the only idiot on the road.
That really helps when considering both actions of other drivers, as well as your actions as they see them.
Quote from: Gnutella on April 08, 2017, 07:50:43 AM
Quote from: orulz on March 27, 2017, 08:22:08 PM
I see both 'left lane hogs' and 'tailgating jerks' as a problem. My personal observations indicate that tailgaters FAR outnumber 'left lane hogs', and are far more dangerous to boot. If you can solve the left lane hogs WITHOUT making tailgating worse, then feel free. I continue to be skeptical.
"Tailgating jerks" are a symptom. "Left-lane hogs" are the disease.
The number of times I have been tailgated while going +10 while truly passing in the passing lane suggests otherwise. Tailgating is a disease all by itself.
Yeah, I don't understand the need to tailgate someone who is going over the speed limit. As long as the person in front of me is driving at or above the speed limit and is passing cars in the lane(s) to his/her right, then I'm happy. But if they are being a slowpoke or a left lane hog, then I get mad at them.
What orulz alludes to is the syndrome of 'I make the rules'.
One rule is: Don't drive over the speed limit.
Another rule is: Keep Right Except to Pass.
Granted, the KRETP can vary from state to state, but at the very least it's common courtesy. One rule isn't more important than any other rule. The fact that you're going +10 is meaningless. I've heard many people say "What...(my speed) isn't fast enough"? It doesn't matter. You don't set the rules. Sure, you're going 10 over. Maybe most people go 15 over. Or 20 over. It doesn't matter. If you're going 10 over and there's a stack of people behind you, complete your passing and merge back over. Or...pass the person you're passing, merge back over, let others pass you, then merge back to pass the next person.
Once you're going over the speed limit, it doesn't matter what speed you're going. It's against the law. Trying to say that 10 over is fast enough not only is wrong, but if you are intentionally holding others back because you decided you make the rules, then it's also a form of aggressive driving.
If you think the speed limit is the ultimate rule, then by all means, drink a beer while you drive. When you get pulled over, let the cop know it's OK to drink the beer - you were only going 10 mph over the limit. Clearly, that doesn't make sense. Neither does saying a certain speed over the limit is fine.
Never did I say I don't get over after completing my pass, I still get tailgated all the same.
My number one priority when driving cannot and will not be to never ever cause anyone to slow down behind me. Sorry. If you think that makes me a left lane hog, then so be it.
Here is another scenario. Driving in fairly light traffic. There are two lines of cars in the right lane separated by a decent distance, but not too long, say 200 yards. I pass the first group, note nobody is immediately behind me, and decide to stay left. I catch up to and begin overtaking the second group of cars. At some point while overtaking them, a car catches up to me from behind. Was I obligated to get right between the two groups, slow down, and wait for the faster driver to go by? Even though it means I would have to slow down in the right lane? I'm not talking about a long line of cars piled up behind me. Just one. Why would it be more important for that person to go their desired speed than me? Especially since I am truly passing cars, using the left lane fort its intended purpose.
Quote from: broadhurst04 on April 07, 2017, 02:32:56 PM
Quote from: orulz on April 06, 2017, 04:53:09 PM
I think too many people think that driving in the left lane should give them a free pass to go however fast they want and expect traffic to part like the red sea before Moses. Again, that encourages tailgating.
THIS. The right way to pass is to accelerate TO the posted speed limit get around cars moving well BELOW the posted speed limit (ex. - 60 in a 70). The wrong way to pass is to accelerate ABOVE the speed limit (and stay there) to get around cars that are moving AT the posted speed limit. You shouldn't be able to use one law as an excuse to break another one you don't agree with.
If someone else's speed determines whether or not you think he is entitled to get around you, then you are indeed using one law (the speed limit) as an excuse to break another one you don't agree with (keep right).
Quote from: orulz on April 09, 2017, 12:01:21 PM
Never did I say I don't get over after completing my pass, I still get tailgated all the same.
My number one priority when driving cannot and will not be to never ever cause anyone to slow down behind me. Sorry. If you think that makes me a left lane hog, then so be it.
Here is another scenario. Driving in fairly light traffic. There are two lines of cars in the right lane separated by a decent distance, but not too long, say 200 yards. I pass the first group, note nobody is immediately behind me, and decide to stay left. I catch up to and begin overtaking the second group of cars. At some point while overtaking them, a car catches up to me from behind. Was I obligated to get right between the two groups, slow down, and wait for the faster driver to go by? Even though it means I would have to slow down in the right lane? I'm not talking about a long line of cars piled up behind me. Just one. Why would it be more important for that person to go their desired speed than me? Especially since I am truly passing cars, using the left lane fort its intended purpose.
In the cases you mentioned in this and the previous post, I don't consider that to be hogging, and I don't have a problem with being behind the car that is doing that, as long as they finish up and get over after they clear the last car they are passing. I too have found myself passing the lead car of the first group only to note that getting over would mean that I am now going to be about to run over tail end Charlie of the second group, and I stay in the left lane to pass that group as well.
I don't get tailgated very often, TBH. When it does happen, it is usually because I am being held up by someone else in front of me preventing me from completing my pass so I can clear the lane. I usually find myself getting pissed off at 2 people then: the dipstick who is camping and the moron who is tailgating me as if I had some way to remedy the situation that the camper is creating.
Quote from: kphoger on April 10, 2017, 01:48:10 PM
Quote from: broadhurst04 on April 07, 2017, 02:32:56 PM
Quote from: orulz on April 06, 2017, 04:53:09 PM
I think too many people think that driving in the left lane should give them a free pass to go however fast they want and expect traffic to part like the red sea before Moses. Again, that encourages tailgating.
THIS. The right way to pass is to accelerate TO the posted speed limit get around cars moving well BELOW the posted speed limit (ex. - 60 in a 70). The wrong way to pass is to accelerate ABOVE the speed limit (and stay there) to get around cars that are moving AT the posted speed limit. You shouldn't be able to use one law as an excuse to break another one you don't agree with.
If someone else's speed determines whether or not you think he is entitled to get around you, then you are indeed using one law (the speed limit) as an excuse to break another one you don't agree with (keep right).
And you shouldn't be able to use Keep Right as an excuse to speed.
Quote from: broadhurst04 on April 10, 2017, 10:56:54 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 10, 2017, 01:48:10 PM
Quote from: broadhurst04 on April 07, 2017, 02:32:56 PM
Quote from: orulz on April 06, 2017, 04:53:09 PM
I think too many people think that driving in the left lane should give them a free pass to go however fast they want and expect traffic to part like the red sea before Moses. Again, that encourages tailgating.
THIS. The right way to pass is to accelerate TO the posted speed limit get around cars moving well BELOW the posted speed limit (ex. - 60 in a 70). The wrong way to pass is to accelerate ABOVE the speed limit (and stay there) to get around cars that are moving AT the posted speed limit. You shouldn't be able to use one law as an excuse to break another one you don't agree with.
If someone else's speed determines whether or not you think he is entitled to get around you, then you are indeed using one law (the speed limit) as an excuse to break another one you don't agree with (keep right).
And you shouldn't be able to use Keep Right as an excuse to speed.
And you shouldn't use the speed limit as an excuse to clog up the road.
Quote from: slorydn1 on April 10, 2017, 11:10:13 PM
Quote from: broadhurst04 on April 10, 2017, 10:56:54 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 10, 2017, 01:48:10 PM
Quote from: broadhurst04 on April 07, 2017, 02:32:56 PM
Quote from: orulz on April 06, 2017, 04:53:09 PM
I think too many people think that driving in the left lane should give them a free pass to go however fast they want and expect traffic to part like the red sea before Moses. Again, that encourages tailgating.
THIS. The right way to pass is to accelerate TO the posted speed limit get around cars moving well BELOW the posted speed limit (ex. - 60 in a 70). The wrong way to pass is to accelerate ABOVE the speed limit (and stay there) to get around cars that are moving AT the posted speed limit. You shouldn't be able to use one law as an excuse to break another one you don't agree with.
If someone else's speed determines whether or not you think he is entitled to get around you, then you are indeed using one law (the speed limit) as an excuse to break another one you don't agree with (keep right).
And you shouldn't be able to use Keep Right as an excuse to speed.
And you shouldn't use the speed limit as an excuse to clog up the road.
I see multiple problem groups here:
-those who hog the left lane
-those who keep right no matter what - even of that may cause an accident
-those who set artificially low speed limits
-those who fly w-a-ay faster than any reasonable speed
-and one thing that unite all those: being inconsiderate of others.
Be aware of other people, their plans and behaviours, and remember - you are not the only idiot on the road.
To check if you're indeed an idiot: next time you stop your shopping cart in a grocery store, look around and check if others may move around you, and if you could change that by moving over the cart by 3-4"...
Quote from: broadhurst04 on April 10, 2017, 10:56:54 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 10, 2017, 01:48:10 PM
Quote from: broadhurst04 on April 07, 2017, 02:32:56 PM
Quote from: orulz on April 06, 2017, 04:53:09 PM
I think too many people think that driving in the left lane should give them a free pass to go however fast they want and expect traffic to part like the red sea before Moses. Again, that encourages tailgating.
THIS. The right way to pass is to accelerate TO the posted speed limit get around cars moving well BELOW the posted speed limit (ex. - 60 in a 70). The wrong way to pass is to accelerate ABOVE the speed limit (and stay there) to get around cars that are moving AT the posted speed limit. You shouldn't be able to use one law as an excuse to break another one you don't agree with.
If someone else's speed determines whether or not you think he is entitled to get around you, then you are indeed using one law (the speed limit) as an excuse to break another one you don't agree with (keep right).
And you shouldn't be able to use Keep Right as an excuse to speed.
I don't. I'm already speeding, whether you're in the right lane or the left lane.
The Senate bill is dead. There is still a similar bill alive in the House, however. http://www.wral.com/passing-lane-bill-fails-to-yield-in-senate/16653253/