Right on Red Arrow

[roadfro]

I appreciate the reasoning. However...

C. Steady red signal indications shall have the following meanings:
2. Vehicular traffic facing a steady RED ARROW signal indication shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make another movement permitted by another signal indication, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line; but if there is no stop line, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection; or if there is no crosswalk, then before entering the intersection; and shall remain stopped until a signal indication or other traffic control device permitting the movement indicated by such RED ARROW is displayed.
When a traffic control device is in place permitting a turn on a steady RED ARROW signal indication, vehicular traffic facing a steady RED ARROW signal indication is permitted to enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow signal indication, after stopping. The right to proceed with the turn shall be limited to the direction indicated by the arrow and shall be subject to the rules applicable after making a stop at a STOP sign.

[jakeroot]

I appreciate the reasoning. However...

[Redacted]

I thought traffic laws were determined by the individual states, not the MUTCD?

[Brandon]

I appreciate the reasoning. However...

C. Steady red signal indications shall have the following meanings:
2. Vehicular traffic facing a steady RED ARROW signal indication shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make another movement permitted by another signal indication, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line; but if there is no stop line, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection; or if there is no crosswalk, then before entering the intersection; and shall remain stopped until a signal indication or other traffic control device permitting the movement indicated by such RED ARROW is displayed.
When a traffic control device is in place permitting a turn on a steady RED ARROW signal indication, vehicular traffic facing a steady RED ARROW signal indication is permitted to enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow signal indication, after stopping. The right to proceed with the turn shall be limited to the direction indicated by the arrow and shall be subject to the rules applicable after making a stop at a STOP sign.

One should read the bolded part.  Just like a red ball for RTOR, no different.  Those "devices" also include laws making the red ball and red arrow the same.

[jeffandnicole]

I appreciate the reasoning. However...

C. Steady red signal indications shall have the following meanings:
2. Vehicular traffic facing a steady RED ARROW signal indication shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make another movement permitted by another signal indication, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line; but if there is no stop line, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection; or if there is no crosswalk, then before entering the intersection; and shall remain stopped until a signal indication or other traffic control device permitting the movement indicated by such RED ARROW is displayed.
When a traffic control device is in place permitting a turn on a steady RED ARROW signal indication, vehicular traffic facing a steady RED ARROW signal indication is permitted to enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow signal indication, after stopping. The right to proceed with the turn shall be limited to the direction indicated by the arrow and shall be subject to the rules applicable after making a stop at a STOP sign.

One should read the bolded part.  Just like a red ball for RTOR, no different.  Those "devices" also include laws making the red ball and red arrow the same.

The device is either:

A) A law permitting a right turn on red arrow after a full stop

B) Signage indicating right turn on red arrow after a full stop

[roadfro]

I appreciate the reasoning. However...

C. Steady red signal indications shall have the following meanings:
2. Vehicular traffic facing a steady RED ARROW signal indication shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make another movement permitted by another signal indication, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line; but if there is no stop line, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection; or if there is no crosswalk, then before entering the intersection; and shall remain stopped until a signal indication or other traffic control device permitting the movement indicated by such RED ARROW is displayed.
When a traffic control device is in place permitting a turn on a steady RED ARROW signal indication, vehicular traffic facing a steady RED ARROW signal indication is permitted to enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow signal indication, after stopping. The right to proceed with the turn shall be limited to the direction indicated by the arrow and shall be subject to the rules applicable after making a stop at a STOP sign.

One should read the bolded part.  Just like a red ball for RTOR, no different.  Those "devices" also include laws making the red ball and red arrow the same.

The device is either:

A) A law permitting a right turn on red arrow after a full stop

B) Signage indicating right turn on red arrow after a full stop

The MUTCD defines 'traffic control device' as "a sign, signal, marking or other other device used to regulate, warn, or guide traffic, placed on, over, or adjacent to a street, highway, private road open to public travel, pedestrian facility, or shared-use path by authority of a public agency or official having jurisdiction..." A law is not a traffic control device.

In the eyes of the MUTCD, placing a sign such as "Right on red arrow after stop" (R10-17a) would make the RTOR permissible.

I thought traffic laws were determined by the individual states, not the MUTCD?

I was reacting to the quote from Rick Perez, which stated in part "The purpose of the arrow is to communicate that the signal head applies to the movement, not to negate the ability to make an otherwise legal turn on red." Me quoting the MUTCD's definition of a steady red arrow was meant to refute that statement about the meaning of the red arrow, given the definition of the red arrow from the national manual that defines uniform meaning and purpose of traffic control devices.

It has been discussed on this forum, and likely in this particular thread, that the meaning of traffic control devices as described in the national MUTCD and meanings prescribed in the states' traffic laws do not always match up.


Personally, I do not like right turn on red arrow–mainly, because I like having the uniform definitions as presented by MUTCD. I will note that in Nevada, a RTORA is not explicitly illegal in state law (the NRS gives a legal definition of steady red without distinguishing between circular red or red arrow indications). With that said, you'll be hard pressed to find many instances in Nevada where a signal displaying a right red arrow is not accompanied by a "No turn on red" sign (I can only think of one such instance), so RTORA is almost de facto illegal. However, I recognize that many states do allow RTORA, and that my view on the matter is likely in the minority on this board.

[vdeane]

Personally, I don't see what the point of having a red arrow pointed right if you're not prohibiting right on red.  Heck, right turn signals are quire rare in NY outside of exit ramps (especially since we were doghouse territory until recently).  It would seem to me that this would be more of an issue in states that permit left on red from a two-way street.

[jakeroot]

Personally, I don't see what the point of having a red arrow pointed right if you're not prohibiting right on red.  Heck, right turn signals are quire rare in NY outside of exit ramps (especially since we were doghouse territory until recently).

Matter of preference by the local agency. States that don't permit right on red arrows are more likely to use 5-section signals when an exclusive turn lane exists (lest there are multiple right turn lanes). States that do permit right on red arrows might be more apt to use three- or four-head turn signals in place of a 5-section signal, to avoid littering intersections with R3-5 signs (a point alluded to by Rick Perez in my post up-thread).

[1995hoo]

In the interest of accuracy since the thread was revived, I should note the Virginia statute noted below was amended and right on red arrow is no longer legal here.

I know Virginia allows it. Left on a red arrow, too, though I haven't encountered that situation. Our statute allowing turns on red doesn't distinguish between a red arrow or a red ball. The instructional booklet the DMV gives people who are learning to drive incorrectly states it's illegal to turn on a red arrow, though.

I think the answer is that if you don't know, you don't go, because after all nothing requires you to turn on red when it's permitted regardless of what sort of light you're facing (arrow or ball). I can think of intersections where turns on red are allowed but where I hardly ever turn on red because I feel something obstructs my view.

[Ace10]

No turn on red arrow? Then you're gonna end up with weird things like this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5987052,-116.1872001,3a,24.2y,39.71h,94.53t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1szJpdD4Vsr7w2GOE2yIhGJQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DzJpdD4Vsr7w2GOE2yIhGJQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D107.096405%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1

This is in Boise, Idaho. The right turn on red is prohibited from the center lane, but permitted from the right lane. Idaho does not permit turns on red arrows, so the signal in the middle has a red arrow, while the signal to the right of that one has a ball.

I've grown up and lived in states that permit turns on red arrows, so I'm used to an all-arrow signal meaning "this signal is strictly for a lane that turns, and may show a different color/indication than other signals". This is partly why I have a distaste for doghouse and 5-section mixed (arrow and ball) signals and prefer 4-section arrow-only signals. That way, I know what signal to look at depending on what I'm doing - if I'm going straight, I look for the ball signal; if I'm going left or right, I'll look for a signal with arrows pointing in that direction. If other signals change, it doesn't matter - I will know which one corresponds to my movement.

(Of course in lanes that have shared movements, like a two-lane road where left-turning traffic shares a lane with through traffic, the above obviously doesn't apply).

I've probably said this before in this (or another) thread but I'll say it again here: I believe the MUTCD also specifies what a flashing red arrow means - stop, and proceed when clear. So how about we use a solid red arrow to mean no turn on red, and a flashing red arrow to mean turn permitted after stopping and yielding to traffic and pedestrians? We could have the same set of rules for the whole country instead of a patchwork of states that allow the turn on red arrow and those that don't. When people cross state lines (like from Oregon/Washington to Idaho) they don't have to keep in mind that they can turn on red arrows in OR/WA but not in ID. If the arrows flash, they know that they can make the turn; if they're solid, they know that they have to wait. And in states that usually permit turns on red arrows, if there's ever a case where turns on red need to be prohibited (such as cross traffic being able to make protected U-turns, or a railroad-preempted signal) they can just make the arrow solid instead of flashing without needing a separately-lit "no turn on red" sign.

[GenExpwy]

There's one application I'd like to see a red right arrow, with a No Turn On Red Arrow law.

Sometimes you see a sign assembly like:

NO
TURN
ON RED
●
7AM—9:30AM
3:30PM—6:00PM
MON—FRI

Sometimes, the plaque listing the times is small, far away, and hard to read, and some drivers might not have an accurate clock handy.

I think it would be more convenient to have a red arrow next to the red ball, with a timer that activates the arrow at the appropriate times. It could be supplemented with

NO TURN
ON RED
ARROW
→

Such a display would be clear and unambiguous.

[vdeane]

No turn on red arrow? Then you're gonna end up with weird things like this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5987052,-116.1872001,3a,24.2y,39.71h,94.53t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1szJpdD4Vsr7w2GOE2yIhGJQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DzJpdD4Vsr7w2GOE2yIhGJQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D107.096405%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1

This is in Boise, Idaho. The right turn on red is prohibited from the center lane, but permitted from the right lane. Idaho does not permit turns on red arrows, so the signal in the middle has a red arrow, while the signal to the right of that one has a ball.

I've grown up and lived in states that permit turns on red arrows, so I'm used to an all-arrow signal meaning "this signal is strictly for a lane that turns, and may show a different color/indication than other signals". This is partly why I have a distaste for doghouse and 5-section mixed (arrow and ball) signals and prefer 4-section arrow-only signals. That way, I know what signal to look at depending on what I'm doing - if I'm going straight, I look for the ball signal; if I'm going left or right, I'll look for a signal with arrows pointing in that direction. If other signals change, it doesn't matter - I will know which one corresponds to my movement.

(Of course in lanes that have shared movements, like a two-lane road where left-turning traffic shares a lane with through traffic, the above obviously doesn't apply).

I've probably said this before in this (or another) thread but I'll say it again here: I believe the MUTCD also specifies what a flashing red arrow means - stop, and proceed when clear. So how about we use a solid red arrow to mean no turn on red, and a flashing red arrow to mean turn permitted after stopping and yielding to traffic and pedestrians? We could have the same set of rules for the whole country instead of a patchwork of states that allow the turn on red arrow and those that don't. When people cross state lines (like from Oregon/Washington to Idaho) they don't have to keep in mind that they can turn on red arrows in OR/WA but not in ID. If the arrows flash, they know that they can make the turn; if they're solid, they know that they have to wait. And in states that usually permit turns on red arrows, if there's ever a case where turns on red need to be prohibited (such as cross traffic being able to make protected U-turns, or a railroad-preempted signal) they can just make the arrow solid instead of flashing without needing a separately-lit "no turn on red" sign.

Or they could do something normal such as allowing right on red from both lanes or prohibiting it from both lanes.

[1995hoo]

Heh. I view right on red from the right lane only as being the "normal" way because VDOT is absolutely obsessed with prohibiting it from any lane other than the curb lane (although, oddly, I've never seen the same signage applying to lefts on red, and off the top of my head I can think of two intersections where left on red is legal and there are two turn lanes). The prohibition is so routine that around here there's almost always a longer line in the rightmost turn lane if there are multiple turn lanes.

[hbelkins]

The only time I will NOT turn right on red from the innermost of two right turn lanes is if a sign prohibits it. I do this most frequently at the off-ramp from I-75 south to US 60 at Lexington. The right lane becomes a "must turn right" at the next light, and I'm usually turning left at that signal to go to Walmart.

Similarly, I always turn right on a red arrow unless a sign prohibits it.

[plain]

 Jefferson Ave

https://goo.gl/maps/v2CiJQnMvoq

Technically turning any direction on a red arrow is prohibited... however, so many people don't realize this and so many states have poorly enforce this rule that it's often ignored

[Brandon]

Jefferson Ave

https://goo.gl/maps/v2CiJQnMvoq

Technically turning any direction on a red arrow is prohibited... however, so many people don't realize this and so many states have poorly enforce this rule that it's often ignored

That's not accurate.  In many states, a red arrow is defined the same as a red ball.

[JMAN_WiS&S]

Jefferson Ave

https://goo.gl/maps/v2CiJQnMvoq

Technically turning any direction on a red arrow is prohibited... however, so many people don't realize this and so many states have poorly enforce this rule that it's often ignored

If you go back in time to older streetview images you can see when the right turn signals were originally added, both signals had red arrows.

[plain]

Jefferson Ave

https://goo.gl/maps/v2CiJQnMvoq

Technically turning any direction on a red arrow is prohibited... however, so many people don't realize this and so many states have poorly enforce this rule that it's often ignored

If you go back in time to older streetview images you can see when the right turn signals were originally added, both signals had red arrows.

yes I was living in NN at the time and I remember that. The city also had double right turn red arrows at Old Oyster Point Road and Cannon Blvd at one point but they changed that one too

[UCFKnights]

that sign no turn on red except from right lane 7pm-7am seems confusing and too long.

[theline]

The only time I will NOT turn right on red from the innermost of two right turn lanes is if a sign prohibits it. I do this most frequently at the off-ramp from I-75 south to US 60 at Lexington. The right lane becomes a "must turn right" at the next light, and I'm usually turning left at that signal to go to Walmart.

Similarly, I always turn right on a red arrow unless a sign prohibits it.

Though there are no arrows here, it's a similar situation: https://goo.gl/maps/Cf5vSDKyCxk. The two-laned end of the right turn ramp from I-65 SB to US-30 WB is controlled by signals with red, yellow, and green balls. I would consider it more of a merge than a right turn. Nevertheless, drivers treat it uniformly as a right turn on red situation from both lanes. The first time I encountered this after the intersection was reconfigured, I was hesitant to go on red, but I soon learned that everyone did. Pavement markings confirm that the authorities consider this a right turn. Like with your situation, HB, smart drivers stick to the left lane, since the right lane soon leads to a right turn only.

[paulthemapguy]

Jefferson Ave

https://goo.gl/maps/v2CiJQnMvoq

Technically turning any direction on a red arrow is prohibited... however, so many people don't realize this and so many states have poorly enforce this rule that it's often ignored

That's not accurate.  In many states, a red arrow is defined the same as a red ball.

Seconding what Brandon said.

Also, I find it atrocious to have a red ball to the right of a red arrow.  Either both should be red arrows, or both should be red balls (I'd probably go with red balls).  It also blows my mind that there's a sign with an arrow pointing downward at a lane that doesn't exist beyond the intersection.  At most, I'd put up a sign that says "no turn on red except from right lane" and be done with it.

This is what happens when people who make Phase II plans have never gone outside before. 

[Brandon]

Jefferson Ave

https://goo.gl/maps/v2CiJQnMvoq

Technically turning any direction on a red arrow is prohibited... however, so many people don't realize this and so many states have poorly enforce this rule that it's often ignored

That's not accurate.  In many states, a red arrow is defined the same as a red ball.

Seconding what Brandon said.

Also, I find it atrocious to have a red ball to the right of a red arrow.  Either both should be red arrows, or both should be red balls (I'd probably go with red balls).  It also blows my mind that there's a sign with an arrow pointing downward at a lane that doesn't exist beyond the intersection.  At most, I'd put up a sign that says "no turn on red except from right lane" and be done with it.

This is what happens when people who make Phase II plans have never gone outside before. 

To use a couple of Illinois examples (a state where red ball = red arrow):

https://goo.gl/maps/M2rGLxkvxT32
https://goo.gl/maps/UuCCErLaRpC2

Red right arrows are very rare here, but an example does exist:

https://goo.gl/maps/w5jLeeynaEy

[jakeroot]

To use a couple of Illinois examples (a state where red ball = red arrow):

https://goo.gl/maps/M2rGLxkvxT32

I would have thought with staggered stop bars, simultaneous turn-on-red would be acceptable (perhaps the reason why they were implemented to begin with). Guess not.

[mrsman]

I've probably said this before in this (or another) thread but I'll say it again here: I believe the MUTCD also specifies what a flashing red arrow means - stop, and proceed when clear. So how about we use a solid red arrow to mean no turn on red, and a flashing red arrow to mean turn permitted after stopping and yielding to traffic and pedestrians? We could have the same set of rules for the whole country instead of a patchwork of states that allow the turn on red arrow and those that don't. When people cross state lines (like from Oregon/Washington to Idaho) they don't have to keep in mind that they can turn on red arrows in OR/WA but not in ID. If the arrows flash, they know that they can make the turn; if they're solid, they know that they have to wait. And in states that usually permit turns on red arrows, if there's ever a case where turns on red need to be prohibited (such as cross traffic being able to make protected U-turns, or a railroad-preempted signal) they can just make the arrow solid instead of flashing without needing a separately-lit "no turn on red" sign.

I agree wholeheartedly and I would generalize what you say to cover other rules like turning left on red and right turn on red signal and even legal driving age that have one rule in the MUTCD and one rule that is applied in the state.  The MUTCD should be a national rule, and exceptions can be clearly delineated.

Every state allows right turn on red ball, except NYC.  NYC should put signs on every intersection where this is prohibited.

Every state should allow left turn on red ball from one-way to one-way.  Where it is not allowed, there should be a sign.

Every state should prohibit left turn on red ball from two-way to one-way.  Where it is allowed [WA,OR,ID - I think], there should be a sign permitting the movement.

Every state should prohibit a turn on solid red arrow.  Where it is allowed, there should be a sign permitting the movement.

Every state should allow a turn on flashing red arrow after stop.


Following the MUTCD should be a priority.  Again, this does not infringe on WA's ability to allow a left turn from a two-way to a one-way, even though most other states prohibit this.  It simply makes the rules more uniform (the U in MUTCD) and allows for exceptions if they are properly signed.


EDITED TO ADD:  From the Wikipedia Article, we can gleam the following information:

AK, WA, OR, ID, MI ----Left turns on red from one-way and two-way streets into one-way streets generally permitted. (5 states)

ME, NH, RI, CT, NJ, NC, SD, MO + DC + NYC generally prohibit left turn on red (8 states, 2 cities)

The remaining 38 states allow a left turn on red from a one-way to a one-way, but not from a two-way to a one-way.  This rule covers the vast majority of the states and the vast majority of the population.  It should be the default national rule in all 50 states.  Signed exceptions can exist where warranted.

"No Turn on Red" - this can be applied liberally.  See Center City Philadelphia where almost every intersection has it.
"Left turn permitted on red after stop" - this sign is not as common, but it clearly would indicate situations where the DOT feels that making such a turn is safe, despite a general no turn on red rule in certain jurisdictions.

From this thread, I only learned that you can't turn left on red on a one-way in NJ.  I grew up and learned to drive in CA.  I live in MD and visit relatives in NY regularly, passing through NJ on the way.  I had no idea that I could not make this turn there and I am sure that there are many drivers in the Northeast who are similarly caught off-guard.

[hotdogPi]

Every state should prohibit a turn on solid red arrow.  Where it is allowed, there should be a sign permitting the movement.

I think there would be fewer signs if allowing a turn was the default.

[mrsman]

Every state should prohibit a turn on solid red arrow.  Where it is allowed, there should be a sign permitting the movement.

I think there would be fewer signs if allowing a turn was the default.

Sure.  But think of all the confusion from waiting behind people who aren't familiar with the unique rules. 

Heck, there are so many Californians invading the Pac NW as it is.  Do you really want to wait behind them at a one-way if a sign could tell them what to do?