New Jersey Turnpike

[jeffandnicole]

Random question, but has the NJTA/NJDOT ever considered having the I-95 designation along the entire mainline of the Turnpike and I-295 on the Delaware Memorial Bridge and linking it to the current interchange with I-95? I always thought it was weird that they decided to link I-95 to the PATurnpike instead of making a more direct route straight through to DE. All that was needed was to convert current I-95 in PA to I-295 or maybe even something like I-395.

That wouldn't have been a NJ decision. PA would not even allow that consideration to take place.

Being that the NJ Turnpike isn't even designated an interstate South of Int. 6, they appear to want no part in even making it a 3di, much less a 2di.

[bzakharin]

Honestly my head is spinning from all this discussion about different exit numbering theories and schemes. When I drive I keep it simpler by not really noticing the exit numbers. I mostly just concentrate on the sign legends.

That may work for you, but the exit numbers on the NJ Turnpike are perhaps the most important in the country. Everybody uses them and nobody looks at sign legends. I can't even name, without looking it up, what routes and municipalities Exit 5 serves. Or 8. Or 12. And I only know 1-4 and 9-11 because I've lived in those areas. So any change to the Turnpike's exit numbers will be extremely painful, no matter how logical it might be.

[roadman65]

How did PTC do it on the extension having numbers 1-110 are also mile posts on the western mainline from Ohio to 110 miles in.  They use the same ticket system for both the NE Extension and the Mainline.

As far as the numbers go, sooner or later we got to adjust.  Yes Elizabeth is 13 and that is why so long Exit 15E SB on the Eastern Spur had substandard signage as Newark or Jersey City was not the reference to it as much as the number 15E hence the lack of control cities there.

NJT always used the numbers and they stood out more than the road names, but we need to change with the times.  With Modern GPS nobody anymore cares about route numbers and exit numbers, as the voice says exit now in 1000 feet.

[jeffandnicole]

What's funny is that in other posts on other threads, people are very adamant towards exit numbers, especially milepost-based exit numbers, to the point where if the exit number is just slightly off from its milepost location some people get pissed.

Yet, in this thread, there's a heavy argument towards exit numbers don't matter anyway.

I just hope no one here saying exit numbers aren't important haven't written about their importance in other threads!

[PHLBOS]

How did PTC do it on the extension having numbers 1-110 are also mile posts on the western mainline from Ohio to 110 miles in.  They use the same ticket system for both the NE Extension and the Mainline.

If you're referring to the Northeast Extension (once PA 9 then later I-476); the mile markers were changed to start at 20 in Plymouth Meeting (I-276) to coincide with I-476/Blue Route's mileage.  The fact that the Lansdale interchange (PA 63) kept the same exit number (31) was purely coincidental.  Although, in reality, it should have changed to Exit 30 (due to actual mile marker location) but the existing 31, in the eyes of the PTC, was close enough to forego a change.

NJTP always used the numbers and they stood out more than the road names, but we need to change with the times.  With Modern GPS nobody anymore cares about route numbers and exit numbers, as the voice says exit now in 1000 feet.

FTFY, NJT is the acronym for New Jersey Transit.    I'm assuming that you were referring to the NJ Turnpike itself and not the Turnpike Authority (NJTA or NJTPA).

To your point, you are correct that NJ (particularly the Turnpike & Garden State Parkway) emphasizes exit numbers moreso than its neighboring counterparts so a change would be more cumbersome for long-time NJ residents/travelers to get accustomed to.  OTOH, PA made the changeover just around the turn of the century and faced no real-known issues mainly because exit/interchange numbers weren't really emphasized/discussed out side of signs, roadmaps and car dealership advertisements.  Heck, much of I-95 in PA (mainly in Philadelphia & Delaware Counties) had no numbered interchanges until the early-to-mid 1990s; so the sequential numbers (for that road anyway) weren't around long enough for people to become familiar when mile-marker-based interchange numbering was adopted.  Granted, I-95's Delaware County interchange numbers wound up not changing at due to each one was close enough to their corresponding mile marker to not warrant a change.

What's funny is that in other posts on other threads, people are very adamant towards exit numbers, especially milepost-based exit numbers, to the point where if the exit number is just slightly off from its milepost location some people get pissed.

Yet, in this thread, there's a heavy argument towards exit numbers don't matter anyway.

I just hope no one here saying exit numbers aren't important haven't written about their importance in other threads!

In my instances, I was commenting from a perceived general public perspective (i.e. non-engineers/highway officials/roadgeek's view); not necessarily my own views/thoughts/opinions.

Had the NJ Turnpike used mile-marker based interchanges from the get-go (like other highways in NJ did); would there even be a discussion on the matter here?

[jeffandnicole]

Had the NJ Turnpike used mile-marker based interchanges from the get-go (like other highways in NJ did); would there even be a discussion on the matter here?

Yes, because part of the discussion is: Do they start the numbers from the NJ/PA Turnpike bridge once that officially becomes I-95 based on I-95's Mileposts?.  Otherwise, motorists coming from I-95 in PA would have seen exit numbering starting in the 50's on the NJ Turnpike.

[PHLBOS]

Had the NJ Turnpike used mile-marker based interchanges from the get-go (like other highways in NJ did); would there even be a discussion on the matter here?

Yes, because part of the discussion is: Do they start the numbers from the NJ/PA Turnpike bridge once that officially becomes I-95 based on I-95's Mileposts?.  Otherwise, motorists coming from I-95 in PA would have seen exit numbering starting in the 50's on the NJ Turnpike.

Then that issue would still exist had the original I-95/Somerset Freeway been built; the only difference being where the location of the NJ Turnpike becomes part of I-95 (Exit 10 instead of Exit 6).

Bottom line is this: If FHWA/MUTCD pushed the NJTA to redesign their guidance signs to MUTCD standards; then what's not to say that they will force them to adopt mile-marker-based interchange numbering for at least the Interstate-occupied portions of the Turnpike?

Additionally, if such were to occur; it wouldn't be the first time that NJ changed interchange numbers along its highways.  I-287's numbers changed years after the fore-mentioned proposed Somerset Freeway was canned; and, more recently, several Garden State Parkway interchanges recently underwent some renumbering... particularly between the Turnpike & I-78.

I've said such before & I'll say it again; a compromise solution would be to keep the Turnpike's numbers from Exit 6 southward as they are and use I-95's NJ mileage for the one north of there.  Such would eliminate any chance of interchange number duplication along the mainline Turnpike.

[Flyer78]

How did PTC do it on the extension having numbers 1-110 are also mile posts on the western mainline from Ohio to 110 miles in.  They use the same ticket system for both the NE Extension and the Mainline.

Before the adoption of mile-based exits, and adjusting the mile-markers to align with Blue Route mileage, they were numbered sequentially starting with 31 for Lansdale. (Old exit 30 was the former Delaware River Bridge toll plaza, #359).

Mid-County was signed as Exit 25A when exiting the East-West Turnpike or south from the Extension. This continued the E-W Turnpike sequence.  Upon renumbering, Mid-County changed to 20 to match I-476 mileage and sequence. (The last free exit on the Blue Route northbound was 9, so sequence was 9, [25A], 31, 32....; The first free exit southbound was for Norristown, exit 7; so it was ...32, 31, 25A, 7...). On the topic of numbers, when Mid-County was 25A, the lane numbers continued from the E-W Turnpike's exit 25 nearby.

Further-back and farther-north, when Keyser Ave opened, it was first a southbound exit only with a part-time staffed toll-booth with a flat rate charged from Clarks Summit, then exit 38. Keyser Ave was made a full interchange with the opening of the barrier tolls in that area (truncating the ticket system to a new barrier plaza in between Wilkes-Barre and Wyoming Valley Interchanges) Keyser Ave then acquired exit 38, and Clarks Summit became 39.

[odditude]

How did PTC do it on the extension

The general public refers to PA Turnpike exits by name, not number. It didn't matter that Exit 26 became Exit 339, because it's still the Fort Washington interchange.

[jeffandnicole]

How did PTC do it on the extension

The general public refers to PA Turnpike exits by name, not number. It didn't matter that Exit 26 became Exit 339, because it's still the Fort Washington interchange.

The general *local* public. Its doubtful someone on vacation looking for the exit knows it as the Fort Washington interchange. Both of which is true for most highway interchanges.

[bzakharin]

How did PTC do it on the extension

The general public refers to PA Turnpike exits by name, not number. It didn't matter that Exit 26 became Exit 339, because it's still the Fort Washington interchange.

The general *local* public. Its doubtful someone on vacation looking for the exit knows it as the Fort Washington interchange. Both of which is true for most highway interchanges.

I would imagine people would be looking for whatever the local norm is. When I travel I go by exit numbers, probably because I live right on the NJ Turnpike. I suppose that leaves PA residents at a disadvantage when they travel because there are no interchange names. But from what I've seen, most areas of the country don't care about either an exit number or exit name, so as long as those exits are signed well with the route number and/or destination, most long distance travelers wouldn't care how they are numbered. Heck, where I work, away from the NJ Turnpike, but on the AC Expressway, when I talk about Exit 5, they look at me like I'm crazy. It's the "route 9 exit".

[PHLBOS]

How did PTC do it on the extension

The general public refers to PA Turnpike exits by name, not number. It didn't matter that Exit 26 became Exit 339, because it's still the Fort Washington interchange.

The general *local* public. Its doubtful someone on vacation looking for the exit knows it as the Fort Washington interchange. Both of which is true for most highway interchanges.

In the case of the PA Turnpike, the exit signage includes the interchange name as well as the exit & route number; something that, to my knowledge, appears to be unique/exclusive to the PA Turnpike.
Current Fort Washington/Exit 339/PA 309 interchange signage:

[Alps]

How did PTC do it on the extension

The general public refers to PA Turnpike exits by name, not number. It didn't matter that Exit 26 became Exit 339, because it's still the Fort Washington interchange.

The general *local* public. Its doubtful someone on vacation looking for the exit knows it as the Fort Washington interchange. Both of which is true for most highway interchanges.

In the case of the PA Turnpike, the exit signage includes the interchange name as well as the exit & route number; something that, to my knowledge, appears to be unique/exclusive to the PA Turnpike.

It would be amazing if the NJ Turnpike did that. I want to say the Maine Turnpike also names its exits, but not shown on signs. The NJ Turnpike has always only numbered them, no official names. I've seen Fictional Highways devoted to trying to name the interchanges.

[SignBridge]

The NJ Turnpike's interchanges do have names. See the list on their website.

[Alps]

The NJ Turnpike's interchanges do have names. See the list on their website.

I think those are unofficial names, based on the destinations listed on the primary signs.

[ixnay]

Re the PA Pike signage at Ft. Washington, up until about 50 years ago, I want to say that that sign would have probably been in all MUTCD caps and referred to "U.S. 309" before 309 was struck from the federal rolls.  Same for U.S. (now PA) 611 at Willow Grove.  Thanks, pahighways.com.

ixnay

[SignBridge]

Alps, I believe those NJTP Interchanges are official names. Although some have been changed over the years, I can remember seeing them on maps back in the 1960's. Such as Exit-11 being Woodbridge-The Amboys, and others further south being Hightstown-Trenton and Bordentown-Trenton. 

[Alps]

Alps, I believe those NJTP Interchanges are official names. Although some have been changed over the years, I can remember seeing them on maps back in the 1960's. Such as Exit-11 being Woodbridge-The Amboys, and others further south being Hightstown-Trenton and Bordentown-Trenton. 

Still doesn't confirm that those aren't just the names listed on the destination signs. I would expect a single name for each interchange.

[Beeper1]

Both the Maine and Mass turnpikes' interchanges do have official names.  They were listed on the toll tickets back when those roads were ticket-based systems.

[roadman65]

How did PTC do it on the extension having numbers 1-110 are also mile posts on the western mainline from Ohio to 110 miles in.  They use the same ticket system for both the NE Extension and the Mainline.

If you're referring to the Northeast Extension (once PA 9 then later I-476); the mile markers were changed to start at 20 in Plymouth Meeting (I-276) to coincide with I-476/Blue Route's mileage.  The fact that the Lansdale interchange (PA 63) kept the same exit number (31) was purely coincidental.  Although, in reality, it should have changed to Exit 30 (due to actual mile marker location) but the existing 31, in the eyes of the PTC, was close enough to forego a change.

NJTP always used the numbers and they stood out more than the road names, but we need to change with the times.  With Modern GPS nobody anymore cares about route numbers and exit numbers, as the voice says exit now in 1000 feet.

FTFY, NJT is the acronym for New Jersey Transit.    I'm assuming that you were referring to the NJ Turnpike itself and not the Turnpike Authority (NJTA or NJTPA).

To your point, you are correct that NJ (particularly the Turnpike & Garden State Parkway) emphasizes exit numbers moreso than its neighboring counterparts so a change would be more cumbersome for long-time NJ residents/travelers to get accustomed to.  OTOH, PA made the changeover just around the turn of the century and faced no real-known issues mainly because exit/interchange numbers weren't really emphasized/discussed out side of signs, roadmaps and car dealership advertisements.  Heck, much of I-95 in PA (mainly in Philadelphia & Delaware Counties) had no numbered interchanges until the early-to-mid 1990s; so the sequential numbers (for that road anyway) weren't around long enough for people to become familiar when mile-marker-based interchange numbering was adopted.  Granted, I-95's Delaware County interchange numbers wound up not changing at due to each one was close enough to their corresponding mile marker to not warrant a change.

What's funny is that in other posts on other threads, people are very adamant towards exit numbers, especially milepost-based exit numbers, to the point where if the exit number is just slightly off from its milepost location some people get pissed.

Yet, in this thread, there's a heavy argument towards exit numbers don't matter anyway.

I just hope no one here saying exit numbers aren't important haven't written about their importance in other threads!

In my instances, I was commenting from a perceived general public perspective (i.e. non-engineers/highway officials/roadgeek's view); not necessarily my own views/thoughts/opinions.

Had the NJ Turnpike used mile-marker based interchanges from the get-go (like other highways in NJ did); would there even be a discussion on the matter here?

I am aware of the mileage on I-476 of how it works.  I was just pointing out that the 20 to 110 mile markers are indeed duplicated and PTC had no issue using the same markers on both their freeways.

In non road geek reading exit signs is a thing of the past.  People ask me as a toll booth operator what the speed limit is on the toll road I work at despite the signs are all there.  People who have been driving all these years cannot tell the difference between a permissive left turn and a protected left as many stay behind the stop bar even when the opposing traffic is clear hence the yellow flasher.  (Also I have seen a motorist wait for the next green arrow with that FYA at one intersection).

I know now the NJT (or NJTA as its like me saying the GSP even though that is not an official acronym and I do not think NJ Transit employees would mind lol) probably won't change the exit numbers.  It would be nice though, but then again ask FDOT over 30 years ago or even in the early 90's about if they would go mile based with the exit numbers and they would tell you never back then.  Look at FL interstates now, minus the Selmon Expressway in Tampa that is still sequential.

However, with the exit guides change in the 9-10 and 14 to 14C it could have worked with high mileage numbers north of Exit 9 and and the single digits sequential as well.  Only the tickets would have to be reprinted which most likely is not a big thing.

[jemacedo9]

I am aware of the mileage on I-476 of how it works.  I was just pointing out that the 20 to 110 mile markers are indeed duplicated and PTC had no issue using the same markers on both their freeways.

The difference here is that the Northeast Extension (I-476) was always a separate road and extension of the Turnpike...so even though it continued the Exit numbering...it's still a separate road.  I-476's Exit 74 (Mahoning Valley) really should be Exit 75 based on mileposts, but that would duplicate I-76's Exit 75 (New Stanton).  I haven't checked to see how close I-76's Exit 57 and I-476's Exit 56 are to their mileposts, but those are the only potential duplicates between the two roads.   

[PHLBOS]

I was just pointing out that the 20 to 110 mile markers are indeed duplicated and PTC had no issue using the same markers on both their freeways.

The difference here is that the Northeast Extension (I-476) was always a separate road and extension of the Turnpike...so even though it continued the Exit numbering...it's still a separate road.  I-476's Exit 74 (Mahoning Valley) really should be Exit 75 based on mileposts, but that would duplicate I-76's Exit 75 (New Stanton).  I haven't checked to see how close I-76's Exit 57 and I-476's Exit 56 are to their mileposts, but those are the only potential duplicates between the two roads.

Not to mention the fact that the Northeast Extension is situated far enough east that the nearest duplicate mile maker (MM 131) is still in the southern-central-to-western part of the state (between the Exit 110/US 219 & Exit 146/I-99/US 220 interchanges); i.e. well over 100 miles as-the-crow-flies the northern terminus of the extension's Exit 131.

[bzakharin]

Did the Northeast Extension duplicate the mainline's exit numbers before the change to I-476-based numbers? I seem to remember a range of exit numbers on BGSs at the exit to the Northeast extension much like this one on the Northeast Extension approaching the mainline (now also gone):
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.117587,-75.2789193,3a,75y,163.24h,109.86t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s1KfB_SlEM5jje9xde56DxA!2e0!5s20090501T000000!7i3328!8i1664!5m1!1e1
If I'm not misremembering, that would not have worked if the Northeast Extension duplicated exit numbers on the mainline.

[akotchi]

No.  Mainline exits were 1-30, while Northeast Extension was 31-38/39.  Mile-based conversion along Northeast Extension went directly to I-476 mileposts.  Mile markers themselves originally had A prefixes and started from 0, but they ultimately changed to begin at 20 and dropped the A.  Not sure if it was at the same time as the exit number conversions.

[storm2k]

Some signage changes at Exit 12:



For reference, here is the previous signage.

No more mention of Roosevelt Ave and CR-602 on the right side. The ghost CR 6-- shield for the Industrial Hwy is gone, and now includes the to Middlesex Ave and ProLogis Way, which will be useful for truckers. The legend text is bigger and easier to read now as well.

They also changed the signs for the North/South ramp split, but I will have to nab a picture of that another day.