Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?

[Revive 755]

Maybe a separate thread should be started for '6 aspect signals'?

There are a couple in Evanston, IL:
NB Sheridan Road at Northwestern Place
SB Sheridan Road at Northwestern Place

There were a couple in Wisconsin:  Example on SB WI 100 in the Milwaukee area

[SignBridge]

No overhead signals in Evanston, Il.?

[STLmapboy]

Maybe a separate thread should be started for '6 aspect signals'?

There are a couple in Evanston, IL:
NB Sheridan Road at Northwestern Place
SB Sheridan Road at Northwestern Place

There were a couple in Wisconsin:  Example on SB WI 100 in the Milwaukee area

They're not really "six aspect" though; they're a pair of three-aspect signals placed right next to each other. I would say that true six-aspect signals are stuff like this.

[jakeroot]

They're not really "six aspect" though; they're a pair of three-aspect signals placed right next to each other. I would say that true six-aspect signals are stuff like this.

That's all those Australia and NZ signals are. Signals are always made up of single faces stacked one way or another. There are no "six aspect" signals.

Maybe a separate thread should be started for '6 aspect signals'?

There are a couple in Evanston, IL:
NB Sheridan Road at Northwestern Place
SB Sheridan Road at Northwestern Place

There were a couple in Wisconsin:  Example on SB WI 100 in the Milwaukee area

Those two in Evanston are exactly how I've pictured bike lane setups. The bike lane signal would be a totally separate face somewhere off to the side. There would be nine total faces on the corner of the intersection, but they'd be clustered logically (through and right near each other, bike signal near the bike lane, ped signal somewhere else, etc). Without a bike lane, you'd only have six signals (for pedestrian protection specifically).

[STLmapboy]

They're not really "six aspect" though; they're a pair of three-aspect signals placed right next to each other. I would say that true six-aspect signals are stuff like this.

That's all those Australia and NZ signals are. Signals are always made up of single faces stacked one way or another. There are no "six aspect" signals.

I mean in a single unified signal rather than just two cobbled together.

[jakeroot]

They're not really "six aspect" though; they're a pair of three-aspect signals placed right next to each other. I would say that true six-aspect signals are stuff like this.

That's all those Australia and NZ signals are. Signals are always made up of single faces stacked one way or another. There are no "six aspect" signals.

I mean in a single unified signal rather than just two cobbled together.

They're "unified" in the sense that they are right next to each other with a single backplate. But you could achieve the same results by aligning doghouses right next to each other.

Six-aspect signals are as easy as mashing two three-aspect signal heads next to one another. Like how they have:

[US 89]

A great example of that is in Utah:

https://blog.udot.utah.gov/2015/03/first-yellow-flashing-right-turn-arrow-arrives-in-utah/

Before:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4312726,-111.889138,3a,75y,33.66h,85.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqx9y7lzsD7YkWYG17adwCQ!2e0!5s20090301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

After:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4312835,-111.8891152,3a,75y,33.66h,85.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s9iL5ZWhKXBa_w0Rp1fhBzw!2e0!5s20160401T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Unfortunately, that is now gone. The entire interchange got reconstructed in order to build one-way frontage roads, so now it functions as a normal diamond interchange.

[JKRhodes]

Yeah, just in case it wasn't clear, I wasn't doubting that flashing yellow right-turn arrows exist; I was simply saying that I don't believe I've ever encountered one.

I realized I forgot to link an example of the ones in Tucson, Arizona.

https://goo.gl/maps/HPVJz6Fe1a6HMbzQ8

Red Ball
Yellow Ball
Green Ball
Solid Yellow Arrow
Flashing Yellow Arrow

This snap was taken during the Solid Yellow Arrow phase. Since the cross street has a lagging green left arrow, the FYA basically comes on as sort of a "leading right turn" phase for the street you're on. Gives the right turning queue some time to clear before the green ball and walk sign come on.

[mrsman]

Yeah, just in case it wasn't clear, I wasn't doubting that flashing yellow right-turn arrows exist; I was simply saying that I don't believe I've ever encountered one.

I realized I forgot to link an example of the ones in Tucson, Arizona.

https://goo.gl/maps/HPVJz6Fe1a6HMbzQ8

Red Ball
Yellow Ball
Green Ball
Solid Yellow Arrow
Flashing Yellow Arrow

This snap was taken during the Solid Yellow Arrow phase. Since the cross street has a lagging green left arrow, the FYA basically comes on as sort of a "leading right turn" phase for the street you're on. Gives the right turning queue some time to clear before the green ball and walk sign come on.

So this is interesting.  On a quick glance, I would have thought that these were 5 aspect signal heads with green arrow and yellow arrow, which are pretty common.  But you are saying that bottom aspect is a FYA, not a green arrow.  There is some benefit to that.

When a protected left is shown, in many places the corresponding right turn is also given a green arrow.  This is fine if U-turns are prohibited, but if U-turns are allowed, you may have a conflict between right turners and U-turners.  [Some states specifically disallow this - CA does not allow the right arrow in such a case unless the U-turn is prohibited, but many other states do allow it, notwithstanding the conflict.]

In this application, the right turn FYA is telling drivers that they have an ALMOST free right turn - the only traffic they need to yield to are u-turners.

The only problem I see is that while FYA always seems to indicate a yield condition, it doesn't always indicate yielding to the same issue.  In some cases, it's to yield to pedestrians on your right.  In some cases its to yield to u-turners, and in other cases its to yield to opposing traffic or even side street traffic.  One key basis of safety is uniformity of meaning, and I don't beleive that is accomplished here.

When I approach a RTOR, I sometimes ask myself, who has the green.  Obviously, my reaction is different depending upon whether cross traffic or opposing protected left turns have the right of way.  I guess people have to ask themselves that same question as they approach a FYA.

[roadfro]

In this application, the right turn FYA is telling drivers that they have an ALMOST free right turn - the only traffic they need to yield to are u-turners.

The only problem I see is that while FYA always seems to indicate a yield condition, it doesn't always indicate yielding to the same issue.  In some cases, it's to yield to pedestrians on your right.  In some cases its to yield to u-turners, and in other cases its to yield to opposing traffic or even side street traffic.  One key basis of safety is uniformity of meaning, and I don't beleive that is accomplished here.

When I approach a RTOR, I sometimes ask myself, who has the green.  Obviously, my reaction is different depending upon whether cross traffic or opposing protected left turns have the right of way.  I guess people have to ask themselves that same question as they approach a FYA.

Yeah, it's the same situation to process as if you were making a RTOR. Is the cross traffic going? Is there U-turn traffic happening? Are there pedestrians? You must yield to traffic lawfully in the intersection.

But I can understand the concern. There's many a case where a right turn on red is not recognizing the right of way of a U-turn legally proceeding on green arrow, so a FYA for the right could exacerbate some of that problem...

[jakeroot]

In this application, the right turn FYA is telling drivers that they have an ALMOST free right turn - the only traffic they need to yield to are u-turners.

The only problem I see is that while FYA always seems to indicate a yield condition, it doesn't always indicate yielding to the same issue.  In some cases, it's to yield to pedestrians on your right.  In some cases its to yield to u-turners, and in other cases its to yield to opposing traffic or even side street traffic.  One key basis of safety is uniformity of meaning, and I don't beleive that is accomplished here.

When I approach a RTOR, I sometimes ask myself, who has the green.  Obviously, my reaction is different depending upon whether cross traffic or opposing protected left turns have the right of way.  I guess people have to ask themselves that same question as they approach a FYA.

Yeah, it's the same situation to process as if you were making a RTOR. Is the cross traffic going? Is there U-turn traffic happening? Are there pedestrians? You must yield to traffic lawfully in the intersection.

But I can understand the concern. There's many a case where a right turn on red is not recognizing the right of way of a U-turn legally proceeding on green arrow, so a FYA for the right could exacerbate some of that problem...

There may actually be an advantage to using the flashing yellow right arrow. When approaching an intersection where the cross-street has a signalized U-turn, an all-red display for the approach road may lead drivers to look in the wrong direction when they make their right turn on red. For example: approaching the cross-street, seeing traffic from the left is stopped, and then proceeding. Not realizing that they have to yield to those making U-turns. This is perfectly logical because at most intersections, when making a right-on-red, the conflicting traffic is largely from the left (although also a green arrow for drivers turning left from the opposing road, but this is a shorter phase). Thus drivers primarily look left to determine if it's clear.

With a flashing yellow arrow facing to the right, it's clearer to drivers approaching the intersection that they need to yield to drivers making U-turns. A supplemental "yield to U-turns on flashing yellow arrow" should be posted to actually indicate the specific meaning (since it's not actually clear on its own), but it would be a signal unique to that specific phase. Compare this to an approach where all signals are red, which really just tells drivers that "some other approach has full priority right now ... figure it out if you want to turn on red". Drivers do figure it out, by and large, but often ignore those making U-turns.

As a side-note: "U-turn yield to right turn" is insane and I cannot believe it's as common as it is. I cannot think a maneuver more awkward than that. And I get to turn left on red from a two-way to a one way street here in WA!

[STLmapboy]

I am also curious how many areas are fully converted over to FYA or really close to that?

On the Missouri side of the St. Louis area the state routes are getting close to fully converted.  The local signals though are not being upgraded as fast.

Just perusing this thread and found this from 2018.
I'd say we're about 70% converted. I think that the signals installed within the past 10-20 years but still before FYAs were introduced (like this one will be the last to introduce.

[roadfro]

In this application, the right turn FYA is telling drivers that they have an ALMOST free right turn - the only traffic they need to yield to are u-turners.

The only problem I see is that while FYA always seems to indicate a yield condition, it doesn't always indicate yielding to the same issue.  In some cases, it's to yield to pedestrians on your right.  In some cases its to yield to u-turners, and in other cases its to yield to opposing traffic or even side street traffic.  One key basis of safety is uniformity of meaning, and I don't beleive that is accomplished here.

When I approach a RTOR, I sometimes ask myself, who has the green.  Obviously, my reaction is different depending upon whether cross traffic or opposing protected left turns have the right of way.  I guess people have to ask themselves that same question as they approach a FYA.

Yeah, it's the same situation to process as if you were making a RTOR. Is the cross traffic going? Is there U-turn traffic happening? Are there pedestrians? You must yield to traffic lawfully in the intersection.

But I can understand the concern. There's many a case where a right turn on red is not recognizing the right of way of a U-turn legally proceeding on green arrow, so a FYA for the right could exacerbate some of that problem...

There may actually be an advantage to using the flashing yellow right arrow. When approaching an intersection where the cross-street has a signalized U-turn, an all-red display for the approach road may lead drivers to look in the wrong direction when they make their right turn on red. For example: approaching the cross-street, seeing traffic from the left is stopped, and then proceeding. Not realizing that they have to yield to those making U-turns. This is perfectly logical because at most intersections, when making a right-on-red, the conflicting traffic is largely from the left (although also a green arrow for drivers turning left from the opposing road, but this is a shorter phase). Thus drivers primarily look left to determine if it's clear.

With a flashing yellow arrow facing to the right, it's clearer to drivers approaching the intersection that they need to yield to drivers making U-turns. A supplemental "yield to U-turns on flashing yellow arrow" should be posted to actually indicate the specific meaning (since it's not actually clear on its own), but it would be a signal unique to that specific phase. Compare this to an approach where all signals are red, which really just tells drivers that "some other approach has full priority right now ... figure it out if you want to turn on red". Drivers do figure it out, by and large, but often ignore those making U-turns.

As a side-note: "U-turn yield to right turn" is insane and I cannot believe it's as common as it is. I cannot think a maneuver more awkward than that. And I get to turn left on red from a two-way to a one way street here in WA!

I like your thinking here. That would be a good application.

And I agree, "U-turn yield to right turn" is ridiculous, especially when the left/U turn traffic is on a green arrow. Never seen it in real life (only in mentions on this forum) and hope I never do.

[SignBridge]

A green turning arrow is normally an exclusive right-of-way. Normally the signals will not clear any other movement that is in conflict with the arrow's movement. That's why (at least in theory) if you're turning with a green arrow, you don't have to yield to peds in the crosswalk, because the "don't walk" signal is still on. The ped signal won't clear until the turn arrow extinguishes.

Of course realistically we all know that peds will often cross against a "don't walk" signal, so we still have to make the turn with caution even with a green arrow.

[Revive 755]

No overhead signals in Evanston, Il.?

Depends how close the signal is to one of the many historic districts in Evanston.  Evanston does have mast arms:

Example at the recently rebuilt Emmerson Street - Green Bay Road intersection

[Amtrakprod]

No overhead signals in Evanston, Il.?

Depends how close the signal is to one of the many historic districts in Evanston.  Evanston does have mast arms:

Example at the recently rebuilt Emmerson Street - Green Bay Road intersection

off topic but check out this classic walk sign: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0519875,-87.6817445,3a,15y,100.81h,86.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbFshnE55tlEt45yRg5ZkSA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Has the two white bars

[Amtrakprod]

My town installed and activated that FYA. The programming isn't done yet. I was happily surprised to see it was programmed correctly!
I'll post video later


iPhone

[fwydriver405]

Spotted these FYA installs on an Ellsworth trip today from Orono. Asides from the Old Town ones I posted about a while ago, I wonder how many more will make it to Northern Maine...




------

My town installed and activated that FYA. The programming isn't done yet. I was happily surprised to see it was programmed correctly!

What does the blankout sign say?

[STLmapboy]

My town installed and activated that FYA. The programming isn't done yet. I was happily surprised to see it was programmed correctly!
I'll post video later

Which intersection?
Cool to see the old mast arm still there for now.

[fwydriver405]

My town installed and activated that FYA. The programming isn't done yet. I was happily surprised to see it was programmed correctly!
I'll post video later

Which intersection?
Cool to see the old mast arm still there for now.

I think it's this one - Brooks Ave at Lake St in Arlington, MA:
https://www.arlingtonma.gov/home/showdocument?id=36925

[Amtrakprod]

Spotted these FYA installs on an Ellsworth trip today from Orono. Asides from the Old Town ones I posted about a while ago, I wonder how many more will make it to Northern Maine...




------

My town installed and activated that FYA. The programming isn't done yet. I was happily surprised to see it was programmed correctly!

What does the blankout sign say?

No turn on red. I assume it'll turn on when the walk sign comes on but it doesn't. Probably hasn't been programmed yet.

[Amtrakprod]

My town installed and activated that FYA. The programming isn't done yet. I was happily surprised to see it was programmed correctly!
I'll post video later

Which intersection?
Cool to see the old mast arm still there for now.

I think it's this one - Brooks Ave at Lake St in Arlington, MA:
https://www.arlingtonma.gov/home/showdocument?id=36925

Correct


iPhone

[Amtrakprod]

I uploaded a YT video showing the light: https://youtu.be/qz1hdXpjB-c


iPhone

[jakeroot]

I like your thinking here [with regards to right turn yield to U-turn on FYA]. That would be a good application.

Thanks! I've seen the right-facing FYA in-action in Tucson, and I thought it was pretty smart and a good halfway between the traditional "yield on red" and the awful "U-turn yield to right turn".

And I agree, "U-turn yield to right turn" is ridiculous, especially when the left/U turn traffic is on a green arrow. Never seen it in real life (only in mentions on this forum) and hope I never do.

I guess some states take the arrow direction quite literally. Here, a green arrow facing left would allow you to depart an intersection in any direction left-of-center, including U-turns. To then say that the green arrow doesn't include ROW to make a U-turn seems rather strange when I've been taught from day one to treat green arrows as the holy grail of protected signals. Apparently not in every state!

I would think that, if U-turns were even remotely common, the whole "yield to right turners" action would create significant backups in the left turn lane. If that's the case, why even permit U-turns to begin with? I don't get it, man. I don't get it.

[jakeroot]

I uploaded a YT video showing the light: https://youtu.be/qz1hdXpjB-c


iPhone

I'm really confused. Is that approach split-phased, with one approach allowing left turns on FYA when the other direction has a green?