News:

Thanks to everyone for the feedback on what errors you encountered from the forum database changes made in Fall 2023. Let us know if you discover anymore.

Main Menu

I-229 St. Joseph Study

Started by Revive 755, May 03, 2019, 10:45:08 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

SD Mapman

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 24, 2021, 10:24:54 PM
No alternatives for keeping 229 completely freeway through the area? I'm not convinced that using surface streets would be a superior way of getting through town.
You look at the survey results that's what most of the people wanted. The linked article also says the no-build is one of the alternatives being considered.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on August 25, 2021, 10:09:01 AM
I really don't know much about this area and it's needs. I figured it wouldn't hurt to have a freeway here after seeing maps unless the train tracks are rerouted any waterfront development would have to be pretty compact. Maybe they can build a scaled down version of Saudi Arabia's carless linear city lol.
I went to college in Atchison; based on all the times I've been to St. Joe I don't think the potential waterfront development can save the downtown (is it even worth saving?). Downtown St. Joe isn't really much to write home about.

Quote from: froggie on August 25, 2021, 09:03:19 AM
Traffic volumes on 229 barely justify 4 lanes, let alone a freeway.  I see no problem with a downgrade here.  And seicer's right..."through traffic" would be taking 29.
Based on my experience, the real traffic downgrade happens at the north US 59/I-229 intersection, which means the viaduct isn't necessarily the problem. Granted, I might be biased, since I was one of the people who used the viaduct as "through traffic".
The traveler sees what he sees, the tourist sees what he has come to see. - G.K. Chesterton


mvak36

https://www.kq2.com/content/news/MoDOT-hones-in-on-three-options-for-future-of-I-229s-double-decker-bridge-575409111.html

Quote(ST. JOSEPH, Mo.) For the past three years, the Missouri Department of Transportation has been narrowing down its list of 20 possibilities for the future of I-229's double-decker bridge. Officials have now honed in on three reasonable alternatives.

The double-decker bridge has been quite the headache for MoDOT Northwest as engineers try to find the right solution to the 50-year-old infrastructure they said is eating away taxpayer money.

"In the near future, we're going to have to spend anywhere from $50-60 million just to kind of do some rehab to that bridge. So we really wanted to look at it about three years ago, are there other options we should explore?" said Marty Liles, district engineer for MoDOT Northwest.

MoDOT officials have zeroed in on three reasonable alternatives to the bridge: RA-2, RA-3 and RA-5.

All three options remove the double-decker bridge.
...

Officials said residents can expect a 'prefered alternative' selected by the beginning of 2022. Once the prefered choice is made, MoDOT engineers will hold a public meeting to hear thoughts or concerns from residents and business owners on the alternative.

Once that process is complete, then officials said talks of construction and cost can begin.

Looking at the study site (https://www.stjoe229.com/), it looks like all three of these alternatives "would require partial or full de-designation of I-229 as interstate. "
Counties: Counties visited
Travel Mapping: Summary

DJStephens

#27
What did they decide on this?  Certainly they could then have an I-129 in the S, and a I-329 in the N, following demolition of this viaduct.   There is precedence.  Spartanburg, SC with it's I-185 and I-385, which believe came about over opposition to, and cancellation of full freeway section through it's downtown.   

mvak36

Quote from: DJStephens on December 03, 2022, 10:33:34 AM
What did they decide on this?  Certainly they could then have an I-129 in the S, and a I-329 in the N, following demolition of this viaduct.   There is precedence.  Spartanburg, SC with it's I-185 and I-385, which believe came about over opposition to, and cancellation of full freeway section through it's downtown.

Here are the remaining alternatives: https://www.modot.org/sites/default/files/documents/I229_AltPDF_8-26-22.pdf

All of them would involve removing the I-229 designation. I'm not sure what they will do with the remaining freeway sections. Your idea of I-129 and I-329 sounds good to me.
Counties: Counties visited
Travel Mapping: Summary

74/171FAN

Quote from: DJStephens on December 03, 2022, 10:33:34 AM
What did they decide on this?  Certainly they could then have an I-129 in the S, and a I-329 in the N, following demolition of this viaduct.   There is precedence.  Spartanburg, SC with it's I-185 and I-385, which believe came about over opposition to, and cancellation of full freeway section through it's downtown.   

You would be referring to Greenville, SC, I think.

Anyway, I would prefer that I-229 just become MO 229 and leave it at that.
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

Revive 755

#30
Quote from: DJStephens on December 03, 2022, 10:33:34 AM
What did they decide on this?  Certainly they could then have an I-129 in the S, and a I-329 in the N, following demolition of this viaduct.   There is precedence.  Spartanburg, SC with it's I-185 and I-385, which believe came about over opposition to, and cancellation of full freeway section through it's downtown.   

MoDOT doesn't want to have an interstate end at anything than another interstate.  They even gave this justification a couple years when there was a proposal to extend the I-72 designation west to the eastern US 24 junction on US 36 (never mind where I-72's current end in Missouri is at).

EDIT:  Rather than making a new 3 digit state route, they could just reroute US 71 over I-229.  This would eliminate the number change at the northern I-29 interchange and get a little more of US 71 back on an independent alignment.

Rothman

Quote from: Revive 755 on December 03, 2022, 09:58:46 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on December 03, 2022, 10:33:34 AM
What did they decide on this?  Certainly they could then have an I-129 in the S, and a I-329 in the N, following demolition of this viaduct.   There is precedence.  Spartanburg, SC with it's I-185 and I-385, which believe came about over opposition to, and cancellation of full freeway section through it's downtown.   

MoDOT doesn't want to have an interstate end at anything than another interstate.  They even gave this justification a couple years when there was a proposal to extend the I-72 designation west to the eastern US 24 junction on US 36 (never mind where I-72's current end in Missouri is at).

EDIT:  Rather than making a new 3 digit state route, they could just reroute US 71 over I-229.  This would eliminate the number change at the northern I-29 interchange and get a little more of US 71 back on an independent alignment.
It's also a FHWA requirement that one end tie into the system.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

sprjus4

Quote from: Rothman on December 04, 2022, 09:15:27 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 03, 2022, 09:58:46 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on December 03, 2022, 10:33:34 AM
What did they decide on this?  Certainly they could then have an I-129 in the S, and a I-329 in the N, following demolition of this viaduct.   There is precedence.  Spartanburg, SC with it's I-185 and I-385, which believe came about over opposition to, and cancellation of full freeway section through it's downtown.   

MoDOT doesn't want to have an interstate end at anything than another interstate.  They even gave this justification a couple years when there was a proposal to extend the I-72 designation west to the eastern US 24 junction on US 36 (never mind where I-72's current end in Missouri is at).

EDIT:  Rather than making a new 3 digit state route, they could just reroute US 71 over I-229.  This would eliminate the number change at the northern I-29 interchange and get a little more of US 71 back on an independent alignment.
It's also a FHWA requirement that one end tie into the system.
In all the cases and examples provided, one end would be connected to an existing interstate highway.

Bobby5280

I see no problem at all with turning I-229 into a pair of Interstate spurs, such as "I-129" and "I-329."

Both freeway spurs would have one of their ends terminate at I-29. As to the requirement the other ends of these Interstate spurs terminate at junctions with other national highways, they could do so.

The southern freeway spur off I-29 would terminate at US-36, which is a freeway of sorts. The Northern spur off I-29 could have its Interstate designation end at the intersection with St Joseph Ave, aka US-59. That looks good enough to me!

SD Mapman

Quote from: mvak36 on December 03, 2022, 08:01:53 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on December 03, 2022, 10:33:34 AM
What did they decide on this?  Certainly they could then have an I-129 in the S, and a I-329 in the N, following demolition of this viaduct.   There is precedence.  Spartanburg, SC with it's I-185 and I-385, which believe came about over opposition to, and cancellation of full freeway section through it's downtown.

Here are the remaining alternatives: https://www.modot.org/sites/default/files/documents/I229_AltPDF_8-26-22.pdf

All of them would involve removing the I-229 designation. I'm not sure what they will do with the remaining freeway sections. Your idea of I-129 and I-329 sounds good to me.
Is the no-build alternative still an option? That's what most people at the public meetings suggested they wanted.
The traveler sees what he sees, the tourist sees what he has come to see. - G.K. Chesterton

CtrlAltDel

Quote from: SD Mapman on December 11, 2022, 10:06:04 AM
Quote from: mvak36 on December 03, 2022, 08:01:53 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on December 03, 2022, 10:33:34 AM
What did they decide on this?  Certainly they could then have an I-129 in the S, and a I-329 in the N, following demolition of this viaduct.   There is precedence.  Spartanburg, SC with it's I-185 and I-385, which believe came about over opposition to, and cancellation of full freeway section through it's downtown.

Here are the remaining alternatives: https://www.modot.org/sites/default/files/documents/I229_AltPDF_8-26-22.pdf

All of them would involve removing the I-229 designation. I'm not sure what they will do with the remaining freeway sections. Your idea of I-129 and I-329 sounds good to me.

Is the no-build alternative still an option? That's what most people at the public meetings suggested they wanted.

It's in the list of rejected alternatives. Probably because, regardless of its popularity, doing nothing would result in the bridge being closed in ten years or so.

A rehab is also on the list of rejected alternatives. It seems that it doesn't address the poor condition of the bridge that well.

Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

skluth

Quote from: SD Mapman on December 11, 2022, 10:06:04 AM
Quote from: mvak36 on December 03, 2022, 08:01:53 PM
Quote from: DJStephens on December 03, 2022, 10:33:34 AM
What did they decide on this?  Certainly they could then have an I-129 in the S, and a I-329 in the N, following demolition of this viaduct.   There is precedence.  Spartanburg, SC with it's I-185 and I-385, which believe came about over opposition to, and cancellation of full freeway section through it's downtown.

Here are the remaining alternatives: https://www.modot.org/sites/default/files/documents/I229_AltPDF_8-26-22.pdf

All of them would involve removing the I-229 designation. I'm not sure what they will do with the remaining freeway sections. Your idea of I-129 and I-329 sounds good to me.
Is the no-build alternative still an option? That's what most people at the public meetings suggested they wanted.
They're also the people who probably had most at stake if the highway was removed. I'd doubt most people don't care either way but would prefer their tax dollars not being wasted.

MikieTimT

Going to Snow Creek this weekend.  Guess I'd better drive it while it exists.

Henry

In effect, I could see St. Joseph becoming another Amarillo, with a surface street connecting two distinct freeway sections. Also, after witnessing the Loma Prieta earthquake that brought down I-880, I've kind of turned against double-decker freeways, so I'd pull the trigger immediately.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

Urban Prairie Schooner

If MO was to eliminate I-229, maybe the I-29 business loop could be re-routed to the remaining spur freeway segments and whatever surface routing through downtown would connect them best. As it is it's weird that a BL even exists there considering there is a better freeway alternative.

Bobby5280

Quote from: HenryIn effect, I could see St. Joseph becoming another Amarillo, with a surface street connecting two distinct freeway sections.

I think that's kind of an apples to oranges comparison. Amarillo is laid out quite a bit differently than St Joseph. The population of Amarillo is also 3 times larger. US-87 has been the main North-South route through town. Although, once the Loop 335 freeway upgrade is finished it will be possible for an I-27 extension to bypass that downtown gap.

Quote from: HenryAlso, after witnessing the Loma Prieta earthquake that brought down I-880, I've kind of turned against double-decker freeways, so I'd pull the trigger immediately.

I don't mind them removing that double decker freeway by the riverside. I wouldn't expect the removal to drop a traffic bomb on the downtown street grid. St Joseph has around 71,000 people.

Elsewhere in more highly populated cities I would expect freeways and toll roads to do more expanding vertically. Normally freeways expand horizontally to add more lanes. In some locations it would cost too much to acquire and remove the property to do so. That forces new lanes to be built either above or below the existing highway. The LBJ Freeway expansion in North Dallas is a good example. Such projects can be controversial, but geometry is geometry. Only so many lanes are going to fit into a given space. Elevated viaducts and tunnels (deep bore or cut-and-cover) will become more common sights in the biggest cities.

DenverBrian

Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 29, 2022, 09:09:55 PM
Quote from: HenryIn effect, I could see St. Joseph becoming another Amarillo, with a surface street connecting two distinct freeway sections.

I think that's kind of an apples to oranges comparison. Amarillo is laid out quite a bit differently than St Joseph. The population of Amarillo is also 3 times larger. US-87 has been the main North-South route through town. Although, once the Loop 335 freeway upgrade is finished it will be possible for an I-27 extension to bypass that downtown gap.

Quote from: HenryAlso, after witnessing the Loma Prieta earthquake that brought down I-880, I've kind of turned against double-decker freeways, so I'd pull the trigger immediately.

I don't mind them removing that double decker freeway by the riverside. I wouldn't expect the removal to drop a traffic bomb on the downtown street grid. St Joseph has around 71,000 people.

Elsewhere in more highly populated cities I would expect freeways and toll roads to do more expanding vertically. Normally freeways expand horizontally to add more lanes. In some locations it would cost too much to acquire and remove the property to do so. That forces new lanes to be built either above or below the existing highway. The LBJ Freeway expansion in North Dallas is a good example. Such projects can be controversial, but geometry is geometry. Only so many lanes are going to fit into a given space. Elevated viaducts and tunnels (deep bore or cut-and-cover) will become more common sights in the biggest cities.
Do Denver and Austin qualify as "more highly populated cities?" Because both have, or are in the process of, removing elevated interstate highways.

rte66man

Quote from: DenverBrian on December 31, 2022, 04:37:25 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 29, 2022, 09:09:55 PM
Quote from: HenryIn effect, I could see St. Joseph becoming another Amarillo, with a surface street connecting two distinct freeway sections.

I think that's kind of an apples to oranges comparison. Amarillo is laid out quite a bit differently than St Joseph. The population of Amarillo is also 3 times larger. US-87 has been the main North-South route through town. Although, once the Loop 335 freeway upgrade is finished it will be possible for an I-27 extension to bypass that downtown gap.

Quote from: HenryAlso, after witnessing the Loma Prieta earthquake that brought down I-880, I've kind of turned against double-decker freeways, so I'd pull the trigger immediately.

I don't mind them removing that double decker freeway by the riverside. I wouldn't expect the removal to drop a traffic bomb on the downtown street grid. St Joseph has around 71,000 people.

Elsewhere in more highly populated cities I would expect freeways and toll roads to do more expanding vertically. Normally freeways expand horizontally to add more lanes. In some locations it would cost too much to acquire and remove the property to do so. That forces new lanes to be built either above or below the existing highway. The LBJ Freeway expansion in North Dallas is a good example. Such projects can be controversial, but geometry is geometry. Only so many lanes are going to fit into a given space. Elevated viaducts and tunnels (deep bore or cut-and-cover) will become more common sights in the biggest cities.
Do Denver and Austin qualify as "more highly populated cities?" Because both have, or are in the process of, removing elevated interstate highways.

Again, apples and oranges. Denver, Austin, OKC, and Fort Worth all have or are in the middle of REPLACING elevated freeways with ground-level or sunken freeways. The St Joseph plan is to REMOVE the elevated structure and replace it with a street, not a freeway.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

DenverBrian

Quote from: rte66man on December 31, 2022, 05:38:32 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on December 31, 2022, 04:37:25 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 29, 2022, 09:09:55 PM
Quote from: HenryIn effect, I could see St. Joseph becoming another Amarillo, with a surface street connecting two distinct freeway sections.

I think that's kind of an apples to oranges comparison. Amarillo is laid out quite a bit differently than St Joseph. The population of Amarillo is also 3 times larger. US-87 has been the main North-South route through town. Although, once the Loop 335 freeway upgrade is finished it will be possible for an I-27 extension to bypass that downtown gap.

Quote from: HenryAlso, after witnessing the Loma Prieta earthquake that brought down I-880, I've kind of turned against double-decker freeways, so I'd pull the trigger immediately.

I don't mind them removing that double decker freeway by the riverside. I wouldn't expect the removal to drop a traffic bomb on the downtown street grid. St Joseph has around 71,000 people.

Elsewhere in more highly populated cities I would expect freeways and toll roads to do more expanding vertically. Normally freeways expand horizontally to add more lanes. In some locations it would cost too much to acquire and remove the property to do so. That forces new lanes to be built either above or below the existing highway. The LBJ Freeway expansion in North Dallas is a good example. Such projects can be controversial, but geometry is geometry. Only so many lanes are going to fit into a given space. Elevated viaducts and tunnels (deep bore or cut-and-cover) will become more common sights in the biggest cities.
Do Denver and Austin qualify as "more highly populated cities?" Because both have, or are in the process of, removing elevated interstate highways.

Again, apples and oranges. Denver, Austin, OKC, and Fort Worth all have or are in the middle of REPLACING elevated freeways with ground-level or sunken freeways. The St Joseph plan is to REMOVE the elevated structure and replace it with a street, not a freeway.

Like Seattle and San Francisco? :D :D :D

DJStephens

A few similarities with Syracuse here, in terms of what they're trying to accomplish.  Different structures of course - meaning viaduct vs. double decker truss structure.   Guess can understand the desire to be rid of the necessary maintenance on said double decker especially in a smallish community with little to no growth.   

rte66man

Quote from: DenverBrian on January 01, 2023, 11:40:42 AM
Quote from: rte66man on December 31, 2022, 05:38:32 PM
Quote from: DenverBrian on December 31, 2022, 04:37:25 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 29, 2022, 09:09:55 PM
Quote from: HenryIn effect, I could see St. Joseph becoming another Amarillo, with a surface street connecting two distinct freeway sections.

I think that's kind of an apples to oranges comparison. Amarillo is laid out quite a bit differently than St Joseph. The population of Amarillo is also 3 times larger. US-87 has been the main North-South route through town. Although, once the Loop 335 freeway upgrade is finished it will be possible for an I-27 extension to bypass that downtown gap.

Quote from: HenryAlso, after witnessing the Loma Prieta earthquake that brought down I-880, I've kind of turned against double-decker freeways, so I'd pull the trigger immediately.

I don't mind them removing that double decker freeway by the riverside. I wouldn't expect the removal to drop a traffic bomb on the downtown street grid. St Joseph has around 71,000 people.

Elsewhere in more highly populated cities I would expect freeways and toll roads to do more expanding vertically. Normally freeways expand horizontally to add more lanes. In some locations it would cost too much to acquire and remove the property to do so. That forces new lanes to be built either above or below the existing highway. The LBJ Freeway expansion in North Dallas is a good example. Such projects can be controversial, but geometry is geometry. Only so many lanes are going to fit into a given space. Elevated viaducts and tunnels (deep bore or cut-and-cover) will become more common sights in the biggest cities.
Do Denver and Austin qualify as "more highly populated cities?" Because both have, or are in the process of, removing elevated interstate highways.

Again, apples and oranges. Denver, Austin, OKC, and Fort Worth all have or are in the middle of REPLACING elevated freeways with ground-level or sunken freeways. The St Joseph plan is to REMOVE the elevated structure and replace it with a street, not a freeway.

Like Seattle and San Francisco? :D :D :D

As he only mentioned Denver and Austin, I only responded to that. Seattle's is unusual as they tore down an elevated freeway and replaced it with both a tunnel and a surface street. The Embarcadero isn't relevant as it was never going to be a completed freeway, hence it made perfect sense to tear it down. Houston's proposed teardown of the Pierce Elevated is a closer parallel that either Seattle or SF.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

MikieTimT

Drove I-229 this past weekend.  Nice view of the river from the road, but noted that the buildings to the east of the road are pretty far back to make use of any surface street conversion along the river.  The buildings themselves are primarily industrial, which explains the railroad tracks being 3 wide through there.  I drove all the way through I-229 and onto US-71 before turning around, and if I saw 20 vehicles on the entire route I drove both ways, I would be shocked.  I know that Sunday afternoon is likely not the busiest time for I-229, but now this has me curious as to how impactful it's removal truly would be what with 12K AADT for the structure in question according to Missouri's traffic volume map.  There's 2 lane state highways with far more intersections I drive on a weekly basis with more traffic than that which flow better than 40MPH.  Looking at traffic volumes on surface streets in the adjacent areas, other than US-36, most of the streets struggle to have more than 1000 AADT.  Just doesn't look all that busy of a waterfront there in general.  It would take demolishing the double-deck, getting rid of at least 1 of the 3 tracks in the area and demolishing a fair number of industries to have any sort of semblance of developable waterfront real estate.  Definitely didn't see any justification for keeping or fixing the structure.  A surface street conversion to something resembling a 2-lane parkway along the river would be a reasonable solution with some landscaping to separate the tracks from the street and riverfront.  And this coming from someone who is not a fan of road diets in general.

Bobby5280

There is a riverfront park next to the I-229 elevated structure. With the structure removed it will be possible for new development to take place along the edge of the Missouri River. I don't know how busy the double-tracked rail line is through that location. If it has a lot of train traffic they'll need to build new vehicle and pedestrian bridges over the tracks to the river landing.

Most of the existing properties along the riverfront are industrial and ugly looking. With the double decker highway section removed it will open the possibility for some properties to be sold and renovated into outlets for dining and entertainment. In the early 1990's the Bricktown area of Oklahoma City looked pretty bad. It took about a decade to undergo a dramatic transformation.

Revive 755

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 04, 2023, 12:48:38 PM
There is a riverfront park next to the I-229 elevated structure. With the structure removed it will be possible for new development to take place along the edge of the Missouri River. I don't know how busy the double-tracked rail line is through that location. If it has a lot of train traffic they'll need to build new vehicle and pedestrian bridges over the tracks to the river landing.

It is (was with dropping coal traffic?) a fairly busy line.

SD Mapman

Quote from: Revive 755 on January 04, 2023, 10:38:30 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 04, 2023, 12:48:38 PM
There is a riverfront park next to the I-229 elevated structure. With the structure removed it will be possible for new development to take place along the edge of the Missouri River. I don't know how busy the double-tracked rail line is through that location. If it has a lot of train traffic they'll need to build new vehicle and pedestrian bridges over the tracks to the river landing.

It is (was with dropping coal traffic?) a fairly busy line.
Not sure if a lot of the coal traffic to Iatan would come through St. Joe; I went to college in Atchison and there were a number of coal trains that came through there on a regular basis (usually whenever I wanted to run south and decided not to take either of the viaducts, but that's another story). There's a good bit of industry to the south along MO 759 as well that would take trains.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 04, 2023, 12:48:38 PM
There is a riverfront park next to the I-229 elevated structure. With the structure removed it will be possible for new development to take place along the edge of the Missouri River. I don't know how busy the double-tracked rail line is through that location. If it has a lot of train traffic they'll need to build new vehicle and pedestrian bridges over the tracks to the river landing.

Most of the existing properties along the riverfront are industrial and ugly looking. With the double decker highway section removed it will open the possibility for some properties to be sold and renovated into outlets for dining and entertainment. In the early 1990's the Bricktown area of Oklahoma City looked pretty bad. It took about a decade to undergo a dramatic transformation.
I mean, maybe? The current pattern for locals (or semi-local college students) is to go to the chain restaurants along US 169 on the east side of town. I don't remember ever hearing anyone having plans to go to downtown St. Joe for fun (or even hearing of any events, though 20 miles blocks a lot of those things out). "Going to St. Joe" usually meant going to the Chick-Fil-A by the Walmart. I'm not familiar enough with OKC to know if there was a similar pattern of avoidance to Bricktown before the redevelopment.
The traveler sees what he sees, the tourist sees what he has come to see. - G.K. Chesterton



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.