Now they're talking about tearing down I-244 in downtown Tulsa

[Plutonic Panda]

Federal received.

They need to consider tunnel or capping it partly, not tearing it down.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/federal-grant-awarded-to-study-removal-of-part-of-i-244-through-greenwood/article_cea9034e-b78f-11ed-8dd0-ab3bd867d4f9.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

[Scott5114]

The U.S. Department of Transportation announced Tuesday that it was awarding a $1.6 million grant to the North Peoria Church of Christ

Holy 1st Amendment violation, Batman. Why the fuck are we having churches involved in transportation planning?!

(Y'all see why I want to move, now?)

[hotdogPi]

(Y'all see why I want to move, now?)

You've said both these things:

1.

This is especially true of Massachusetts. I have, in a few places online, mentioned that I am thinking about moving to another state, and without fail someone from Massachusetts will immediately respond saying that I would be welcome there and asking me to consider it as an option. It would certainly be tempting, if I weren't concerned my southern-Californian wife would freeze to death in the winter.

2.

Were I ever to find myself in a long term committed relationship with someone else

Also, forgive me for making assumptions, but I just assumed that's the sort of relationship you and R had.

It is currently, but it seems likely that will not always be the case going forward.

In all seriousness, though, Scott, I'm sorry to hear that.

Thanks for the well wishes. We've kind of come to the conclusion that we have different things that we're looking for in a relationship, and we intend to remain friends if nothing else, so it's as amicable as the circumstances can be. (We also have not set an exact end date for anything yet, as right now it's financially advantageous for both of us to not make any changes.)

So you can move to Massachusetts?

[Rothman]

The U.S. Department of Transportation announced Tuesday that it was awarding a $1.6 million grant to the North Peoria Church of Christ

Holy 1st Amendment violation, Batman. Why the fuck are we having churches involved in transportation planning?!

(Y'all see why I want to move, now?)

This is bizarre.  I'm thinking someone screwed up at USDOT.

[Scott5114]

So you can move to Massachusetts?

Hmmm...I could, but I really don't like the snow, and I do really like Nevada...

I suppose I should consider doing at least a due-diligence trip to check Massachusetts out at some point. (I've gotten more "you should live here!" posts from MA residents than any other state, both here and on Reddit.) My boss wants me to check out New Jersey, but he lives in New Hampshire, so I'm sure he'd like having me one state to the south in case he needs someone to help him sort license plates.

[Scott5114]

The U.S. Department of Transportation announced Tuesday that it was awarding a $1.6 million grant to the North Peoria Church of Christ

Holy 1st Amendment violation, Batman. Why the fuck are we having churches involved in transportation planning?!

(Y'all see why I want to move, now?)

This is bizarre.  I'm thinking someone screwed up at USDOT.

Who would have standing to sue? Anyone? No one?

[Rothman]

The U.S. Department of Transportation announced Tuesday that it was awarding a $1.6 million grant to the North Peoria Church of Christ

Holy 1st Amendment violation, Batman. Why the fuck are we having churches involved in transportation planning?!

(Y'all see why I want to move, now?)

This is bizarre.  I'm thinking someone screwed up at USDOT.

Who would have standing to sue? Anyone? No one?

I have no idea.  Haven't heard of anyone suing over a screwy grant award like this.

I am just wondering what a church would know about the federal-aid process or even how to acquire a consultant per federal requirements.  Even though it's just a study, whoever is overseeing this is going to have their hands full (ODOT or FHWA).

Come to think of it, the church may just hand it over to ODOT when they find out how onerous the project is.  NY has had cases where small, inexperienced municipalities kick project administration up to their county, for example.

[The Ghostbuster]

Is there any chance that the numerous left-handed exit and entrance ramps along Interstate 244 could be moved to the right-hand side without too much disruption to the surrounding area the Interstate passes through?

[swake]

Federal received.

They need to consider tunnel or capping it partly, not tearing it down.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/federal-grant-awarded-to-study-removal-of-part-of-i-244-through-greenwood/article_cea9034e-b78f-11ed-8dd0-ab3bd867d4f9.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

The highway is elevated today, you can't cap it. Rebuilding it below grade, aside from extreme cost, is also problematic due to the rail lines that run right through the middle of the I-244/US-75 interchange.

The neighborhood wants I-244 torn down, not the state.

[swake]

The U.S. Department of Transportation announced Tuesday that it was awarding a $1.6 million grant to the North Peoria Church of Christ

Holy 1st Amendment violation, Batman. Why the fuck are we having churches involved in transportation planning?!

(Y'all see why I want to move, now?)

This is bizarre.  I'm thinking someone screwed up at USDOT.

Who would have standing to sue? Anyone? No one?

I have no idea.  Haven't heard of anyone suing over a screwy grant award like this.

I am just wondering what a church would know about the federal-aid process or even how to acquire a consultant per federal requirements.  Even though it's just a study, whoever is overseeing this is going to have their hands full (ODOT or FHWA).

Come to think of it, the church may just hand it over to ODOT when they find out how onerous the project is.  NY has had cases where small, inexperienced municipalities kick project administration up to their county, for example.

ODOT, INCOG and the city of Tulsa put in a grant request that was denied. This was a competing request backed by the Greenwood neighborhood and the two State Representatives from Greenwood, the church is the entity it was filed with. The state request was based on improving access to across the highway with a long term goal of removal. 30+ years long term. The approved grant was based on removal now, which is what the Greenwood neighborhood wants.  ODOT, INCOG and the city of Tulsa wanted to slow play the neighborhood.

I'm not sure how you can possibly get a project of this scope done when it's not backed by ODOT, INCOG and the city, but ok.

[swake]

Is there any chance that the numerous left-handed exit and entrance ramps along Interstate 244 could be moved to the right-hand side without too much disruption to the surrounding area the Interstate passes through?

I-244 was completely rebuilt with all new concrete in the last few years, so those left hand exits aren't going anywhere.

[Rothman]

The U.S. Department of Transportation announced Tuesday that it was awarding a $1.6 million grant to the North Peoria Church of Christ

Holy 1st Amendment violation, Batman. Why the fuck are we having churches involved in transportation planning?!

(Y'all see why I want to move, now?)

This is bizarre.  I'm thinking someone screwed up at USDOT.

Who would have standing to sue? Anyone? No one?

I have no idea.  Haven't heard of anyone suing over a screwy grant award like this.

I am just wondering what a church would know about the federal-aid process or even how to acquire a consultant per federal requirements.  Even though it's just a study, whoever is overseeing this is going to have their hands full (ODOT or FHWA).

Come to think of it, the church may just hand it over to ODOT when they find out how onerous the project is.  NY has had cases where small, inexperienced municipalities kick project administration up to their county, for example.

ODOT, INCOG and the city of Tulsa put in a grant request that was denied. This was a competing request backed by the Greenwood neighborhood and the two State Representatives from Greenwood, the church is the entity it was filed with. The state request was based on improving access to across the highway with a long term goal of removal. 30+ years long term. The approved grant was based on removal now, which is what the Greenwood neighborhood wants.  ODOT, INCOG and the city of Tulsa wanted to slow play the neighborhood.

I'm not sure how you can possibly get a project of this scope done when it's not backed by ODOT, INCOG and the city, but ok.

What will happen is the church will get mired in red tape that they don't know how to navigate while ODOT's concept progresses forward, since this is just a study.

I don't think FHWA will yank the money if the church can't progress the study (despite grant guidance that states otherwise), but the delay due to the learning curve may actually make ODOT's concept of a later demolition a de facto reality.

Really would like to know how many millions are wasted on studies that don't lead to action nationwide...

I'm on the wrong side of the table in this business...

[Plutonic Panda]

ODOT needs to get on the ball then and just build a new freeway and ensure it won't be torn down for at least 70 years.

[swake]

ODOT needs to get on the ball then and just build a new freeway and ensure it won't be torn down for at least 70 years.

A complete rebuild of the north leg of the IDL was completed in 2011. All the way down to the dirt, all new concrete. It pretty much is new now.

[Plutonic Panda]

ODOT needs to get on the ball then and just build a new freeway and ensure it won't be torn down for at least 70 years.

A complete rebuild of the north leg of the IDL was completed in 2011. All the way down to the dirt, all new concrete. It is pretty much is new now.

Amazing. And they didn't have the foresight to remove the left exits.

ODOT needs to bite the fucking bullet and build an actual tunnel with a mid portal to connect downtown. Traffic I-44 bound can use the other legs.

Eventually Tulsa is going to have real traffic issues like major cities and that's coming sooner rather than later. Through traffic will find it less time to use Creek turnpike then cut through town.

[Scott5114]

I don't think FHWA will yank the money if the church can't progress the study (despite grant guidance that states otherwise), but the delay due to the learning curve may actually make ODOT's concept of a later demolition a de facto reality.

ODOT needs to get on the ball then and just build a new freeway and ensure it won't be torn down for at least 70 years.

I don't think ODOT has any intent to actually demolish the freeway. Historically they have taken a dim view of this whole urbanism thing. Take a look at how the Oklahoma City Boulevard was built in the old I-40 footprint–nothing about that screams that they took the assignment seriously, at least from the perspective of someone with an urbanist mindset. ODOT is still in the classic DOT mindset of wanting to move cars. This is probably why community leaders had a church apply for a grant rather than going through ODOT.

ODOT is only saying 30 years is the minimum that they could implement an alternative place to send all that traffic, not that they are for sure going to do it 30 years from now. Anytime ODOT thinks they want to pursue a project it gets put at the end of an 8-year plan. Many times as things advance they get bumped back from year 4 to year 6 or whatever because there is no funding. So something might stay in year 6 of the 8-year plan for 10 years until funding becomes available. And it might quietly disappear from the plan during that timeframe too.

And that brings us around to the Legislature. Finding a place to put those 74,000 cars a day is no easy task. The Springdale to Enid interstate will be in this area too and that might raise traffic levels. This will be a bigger and more expensive project than the OKC I-40 realignment, and that required constant pressure from the Governor's office to get the Legislature to cough up the money to get it done. Neither the Oklahoma Legislature nor the current Governor are progressive enough to care about this issue at all, much less commit any money toward it. The Republicans have an 81-20 majority in the Oklahoma House right now, so you're going to have to convince a whole bunch of Republicans to support this (which would mean convincing them to not think about the word "woke" for ten seconds) or you are going to have to get a shitload of Democrats in the Legislature representing districts far from Tulsa. Neither of those are going to happen, so this project is dead on arrival.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^ it's called a fucking tunnel! Well, maybe this will get Oklahoma its first real actual road tunnel. One of my favorite types of road.

[Scott5114]

^^^ it's called a fucking tunnel! Well, maybe this will get Oklahoma its first real actual road tunnel. One of my favorite types of road.

I think it's far more likely that the north leg of the IDL will still be there in something resembling its current form 30 years from now, although it might be I-46 or 48 or 50 instead of 244.

It's not much of a dispersal loop if it's too underground to disperse anything.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^ it's called a fucking tunnel! Well, maybe this will get Oklahoma its first real actual road tunnel. One of my favorite types of road.

I think it's far more likely that the north leg of the IDL will still be there in something resembling its current form 30 years from now, although it might be I-46 or 48 or 50 instead of 244.

It's not much of a dispersal loop if it's too underground to disperse anything.

Well, that's what I was I thinking. Given the new interstate designation it seems like that ensures the future of this segment especially given ODOTs pro freeway stance.

[rte66man]

ODOT needs to get on the ball then and just build a new freeway and ensure it won't be torn down for at least 70 years.

A complete rebuild of the north leg of the IDL was completed in 2011. All the way down to the dirt, all new concrete. It is pretty much is new now.

Amazing. And they didn't have the foresight to remove the left exits.

Foresight?? The cost to do what you have described would be hundreds of millions of dollars, which would siphon off all available funds for more worthwhile projects statewide. Not meeting current design standards? Yes, but unless ODOT wins the lottery, it ain't gonna happen.

[Plutonic Panda]

ODOT needs to get on the ball then and just build a new freeway and ensure it won't be torn down for at least 70 years.

A complete rebuild of the north leg of the IDL was completed in 2011. All the way down to the dirt, all new concrete. It is pretty much is new now.

Amazing. And they didn't have the foresight to remove the left exits.

Foresight?? The cost to do what you have described would be hundreds of millions of dollars, which would siphon off all available funds for more worthwhile projects statewide. Not meeting current design standards? Yes, but unless ODOT wins the lottery, it ain't gonna happen.

We've gotta get off the cheap train.

[rte66man]

Amazing. And they didn't have the foresight to remove the left exits. 

I took a look at the area with GE and was reminded that whichever ODOT engineer designed 244 in the 60's was in love with left exits. Leaving aside the IDL interchanges, they put them in WB at the Detroit/Cincinnati exit for no apparent reason. They also put them in both directions at Sheridan and Memorial. An argument could be made the one at Memorial was needed to separate the traffic signals at the top of the ramps from the ones at Memorial and Admiral but there is no good reason for the ones at Sheridan that I can see especially as there are service roads on both sides.

[BigOkie]

Amazing. And they didn't have the foresight to remove the left exits. 

I took a look at the area with GE and was reminded that whichever ODOT engineer designed 244 in the 60's was in love with left exits. Leaving aside the IDL interchanges, they put them in WB at the Detroit/Cincinnati exit for no apparent reason. They also put them in both directions at Sheridan and Memorial. An argument could be made the one at Memorial was needed to separate the traffic signals at the top of the ramps from the ones at Memorial and Admiral but there is no good reason for the ones at Sheridan that I can see especially as there are service roads on both sides.

As someone who uses those left exits on the regular (I live just down the road from I-244 and Memorial) I can tell you the distance from the signals on both Memorial and Sheridan cause an issue; but it's also Easton St intersection to the south of the Sheridan exit that can be problematic.

Just not sure why all the hate for left exits.  These seem to serve a purpose.  I guess as someone who was born and grew up here, it never really affected me in that manner.

[Scott5114]

Left exits are, in general, considered poor design because it causes conflicts between slow traffic going to/coming from the ramps and faster traffic in the passing lane.

[US 89]

ODOT needs to get on the ball then and just build a new freeway and ensure it won't be torn down for at least 70 years.

A complete rebuild of the north leg of the IDL was completed in 2011. All the way down to the dirt, all new concrete. It is pretty much is new now.

Amazing. And they didn't have the foresight to remove the left exits.

Foresight?? The cost to do what you have described would be hundreds of millions of dollars, which would siphon off all available funds for more worthwhile projects statewide. Not meeting current design standards? Yes, but unless ODOT wins the lottery, it ain't gonna happen.

We've gotta get off the cheap train.

So money grows on trees now. Got it.

There's a reason basically every major road improvement in Oklahoma in the past 20 years has been a city-owned freeway (Tisdale/Gilcrease) or a turnpike.